ok cheapy i have to ask... how did you make an archetype for an archetype ( shogun(samurai).I blame PFS. That encourages thinking of just your character. It bleeds over to the rest of the game too.
Also, people generally have a great idea for their character. Working with another character from the beginning, selecting feats that complement each other, requires planned cooperation between two players, which could possibly kill individuality with regards to your character.
Also, I shamelessly plug this which I wrote specifically to try to address this issue. There's a sequel in the works too.
By the way, take K(Engineering) and Craft(Weapons) and make the fearsome Scythelance.
you don't. The samurai isn't a archtype, it's an alternate class of caviler. You are not a caviler (samurai), you are a samurai. You can't take levels in caviler.
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You need to have the right group of players who can work as a team. If ther group is compaosed of players who just want to do their own thing temawork will never happen. Or who play a class the wrong way. To use as an example a friend of mine in a 4E used to be in. They two melee types were getting chewed to pieces because the rogue kept playing the character as a distance fighter. Too far to do any sneak attack damage and was not doing enough damage to help out the melee types from a distance. Refused absolutely to get into combat. Unless you take temwork feats the system imo does not encourgae teamwork or reward it. A rogue who stays in melee to sneak attack a creatures usually end up being knocled out as they do not have the staying power of a Fighter. A player also needs to use all of his abilites I'm running a game where the Alchemist is just spamming his bomb attack. Ezxcept he is not doing anything else. Not buffing or using any of his spells on himself and others or using anything else. Not to say that hsi bomb attack is not useful just that while everyone else is using their characters to their fullest potential he imo is not.
One of the things 4E did do right was that with certain powers and their effects of pushing, sliding, pulling you can imo setup more tactics for teamwork. It can be done with PF just not as easy or as fun to do so.
Actually, Memorax a thought occurs... I recently came up with an idea for a character, that without realizing was teamwork oriented without really intending to be. Indeed, he doesn't have a single teamwork feat. And he does indeed do pushing sliding and pulling.
The character concept is a fighter. A fighter that uses combat maneuvers like a fiend. I have yet to be able to play him, but the idea is to utilize a lot of Bull Rush, Reposition, Drag, Disarm, and Trip. On most of those, with the Greater versions of their feats, they provoke attacks of opportunity.
So, the concept, which was originally supposed to just be annoying to his enemies, opens up a lot in terms of teamwork. Were I to do this in my group, and I know what they'll be doing already, I would subtly be introducing teamwork, through the simple act of my character wouldn't kill too many things too quickly. If the character manages to pick up the Ki Throw line and Spinning Throw, that would definitely enable more control over where the opponent goes...
Now I just need to find a weapon that can take advantage....
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Actually, Memorax a thought occurs... I recently came up with an idea for a character, that without realizing was teamwork oriented without really intending to be. Indeed, he doesn't have a single teamwork feat. And he does indeed do pushing sliding and pulling.
The character concept is a fighter. A fighter that uses combat maneuvers like a fiend. I have yet to be able to play him, but the idea is to utilize a lot of Bull Rush, Reposition, Drag, Disarm, and Trip. On most of those, with the Greater versions of their feats, they provoke attacks of opportunity.
So, the concept, which was originally supposed to just be annoying to his enemies, opens up a lot in terms of teamwork. Were I to do this in my group, and I know what they'll be doing already, I would subtly be introducing teamwork, through the simple act of my character wouldn't kill too many things too quickly. If the character manages to pick up the Ki Throw line and Spinning Throw, that would definitely enable more control over where the opponent goes...
Now I just need to find a weapon that can take advantage....
I did something similar a few weeks back building a shield fighter for a friend of mine. I actually went in just trying to build something thematically different to the other fighter in the group but found the more I looked into, the more like a 4e fighter he became. He shield bashes and gets a free bull rush attempt every time he does. He also gets to make bull rush attempts on crits with his axe, and he's damn good at them. At level 9 , he still has plenty of options to expand outside this as well, but it really does look like it will play nicely in the role of combat control as well as dealing damage that is reasonable with a high AC too. He's a team player without taking team feats.
Cheers
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Aretims Wraith both very good posts. Artemis unless you have the righr group to help out it may or may not work. If you have a Rogue he either has to be in postiotn or eventually get into position to benefit from a successful combat manuever. Not saying it will not work in your group or in princpal. Just that it reuires a group at least willing to work toghter. Not something that always happen in my experience gaming. Wrath I have a Fighter in my game and he also felt like making a fighter that was more than just swing and hit and he too feels like his fighter is a lot like one in 4E.
Teamwork can be done yet unlike 4E imo the system is not setup to take advantage of it unless you build a character a certain way or at least take feats to that effect.
I saw the phenomenon of not working together the most after 3.0 came out. In the earlier editions, in order to be a well rounded group and cover any aspects, you almost always had one of each of the main types. Arcane caster, Divine caster, Skills and Weapons/Armor. In 3.0, through the numerous options methods on how to build a character, you have players that can finally build the "I am an island - Lone Wolf" that seems to be popular amongst those that see the game as a competition. Now you can make one character that can have an aspect of every class and not need others. UMD - don't need a caster, Perc/Disable - don't need a Skill monkey. For the cost of 3 skills you can remove the need for most any others in the party, last step is to impress the pants off the other players with how awesome and mysterious you are, and how you are better than all of them.
It was there in some of the earlier editions, but not as pronounced (Elven Ftr/Wiz/Thf). With a ruleset that allows you not to NEED other players it is easier for each player to worry more about how they will succeed then how the party will succeed.
I agree with Memorax in that I think 4E was built to encourage, almost require, teamwork to succeed by putting each class into a specific and defined role. It reminds me more of the older editions where even if you were evil you worked with others because you NEEDED what they brought to the table, instead of just building an I don't need anyone else because the rules let me character.
Creative Director
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My cynical guess:
Most players want to be the "star" of the game, and working together to that extent makes it difficult for one person to be the "star."
Since it's so easy to interpret the "star" as also being the one who does the most damage, this also explains in my cynical world-view why people don't like playing clerics or bards or other support characters.
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My cynical guess:
Most players want to be the "star" of the game, and working together to that extent makes it difficult for one person to be the "star."
Since it's so easy to interpret the "star" as also being the one who does the most damage, this also explains in my cynical world-view why people don't like playing clerics or bards or other support characters.
Probably true James. I think it helps if you have a balanced group of players as well. I'm lucky enough in my face to face games to have a mix of players who like to deal damage/ cast blasty/ cast buff/ fill gaps. Plus the fact we have all played together for years, means we really do get teamwork going.
Some classes are also built to be team players - bard, inquisitor, cleric (depending on spell selection). I've always struggled to play a bard well, though haven't tried a pathfinder one. I love the cleric and inquisitor role though.
It ins possible, just player dependent.
Cheers