Something that has irked me for quite some time is that people and the rules assume that charisma determines your appearance. To me, this makes little to no sense. It should primarily determine your force of will on the things around you. For example: A goblin/lich/(insert typically ugly creature here) spellcaster that uses charisma as it's main stat. The stat reliance is due to them needing the ability to cast the spells they specialize in. But are they attractive? According to the stat, they are. Also, I get tired of players saying "your character is less attractive then mine because I have a higher charisma." I also get annoyed at people assuming that you are unable to properly use a charisma based skill (such as diplomacy) or using RP related antics to attempt to woo a member of the opposite sex because you are too physically unattractive. I would argue that someone with a low charisma, unless they want to be ugly, is either poor ability to lead or a chilly disposition.
/Rant
Tl;Dr
Charisma determining your physical looks seems odd.
When I DM, You decide how you look, not your stats. This part of why I support divorcing stats from physical and mental properties.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've been in more than one of these.
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You are not alone, OP.
Beauty is subjective.
Different people from different races and different cultures are going to find different things attractive or aesthetically pleasing.
Reducing that to a quantified number is derpy.
High CHA undead-bloodline sorcerers can look like lepers if they damn well please.
Amiri has 8 CHA.
Tons of gruesome undead and aberrations have high CHA.
etc
Done.
I use a very complicated arcane formula that requires exact precise measurements based on the average human, the stats of the character, the region he grew up in, the parental heritage and finally (and most importantly) simply listen to what the player describes the character as.
Then I go with that. Plenty of pretty people with the charisma of an aardvark (and I'm sorry to all the wonderful aardvarks out there that I just insulted) and plenty of ugly people with plenty of charisma.
Besides if a hag can have the charisma they do with the looks they have (not to mention the number of NPCs in pathfinder AP's described as very good looking with sub 10 charisma scores) I'm not going to sweat letting my players have pretty characters if they want them.
After all it's not like it has an actual mechanical effect.
Besides look at it this way -- I'm asking them to take it on face value that the entire make believe world looks, smells, feels, tastes and sounds like -- I can give them the same courtesy when it comes to their characters (the only part they have actual control over).
I don't think you should ever role play stats. Stats are there for mechanical reasons only.
Is this sarcasm or are you serious?
Déjà vu!
Haha not trying to be a super reposter, but with a lot of discussion about the next pathfinder iteration and whatnot I thought I'd bring this to attention and see how people felt about it. From what I can tell NO ONE likes how it is currently set up, as it is a relic of 3.5.
Déjà vu!Haha not trying to be a super reposter, but with a lot of discussion about the next pathfinder iteration and whatnot I thought I'd bring this to attention and see how people felt about it. From what I can tell NO ONE likes how it is currently set up, as it is a relic of 3.5.
I still believe we should switch over to Attack, Defense, Vitality, Spirit, and Magic. Might even help balance spellcasters.
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From what I can tell NO ONE likes how it is currently set up, as it is a relic of 3.5.
True, there is a lot of discussion about Charisma on these forums as we all know! I personally like the stat and cannot imagine using it as a dump stat. Not that I like having a dump stat either, as I prefer not having negative modifiers (I suffer the equivalent of those in RL enough!)
I try not use Charisma as a measure of appearance. As someone said to me once, the appearance of the character is really an area that should solely be under the control of the player and not determined by stats. I like that view of it, even if its not correct by RAW, and use it in my games.
I do not agree with all the views of Charisma on these boards, but arguing the case is kind of, thanks Blade, like ice-skating up hill. I think Ashiel has had some interesting views of how to use skills to combat a low Charisma.
IMO, I think it is best to leave Charisma and appearance apart.
Being considered attractive probably helps in getting people to listen to you, while having a repulsive apearance makes it a bit harder.
I would say with two characters with Charisma 16, of which one looks super attractive and the other is horribly disfigured, the ugly looking one would have a slightly stronger force of personalty and skill to talk to people than the other one. But in the end, it evens out to a Charisma score of 16 each time.
Yes, the ugly one should be a better sorcerer, but ability scores are an abstraction and character creation is not a contest.
You don't have to be good looking to persuade other people, but it helps.
Something that has irked me for quite some time is that people and the rules assume that charisma determines your appearance. To me, this makes little to no sense. It should primarily determine your force of will on the things around you. For example: A goblin/lich/(insert typically ugly creature here) spellcaster that uses charisma as it's main stat. The stat reliance is due to them needing the ability to cast the spells they specialize in. But are they attractive? According to the stat, they are. Also, I get tired of players saying "your character is less attractive then mine because I have a higher charisma." I also get annoyed at people assuming that you are unable to properly use a charisma based skill (such as diplomacy) or using RP related antics to attempt to woo a member of the opposite sex because you are too physically unattractive. I would argue that someone with a low charisma, unless they want to be ugly, is either poor ability to lead or a chilly disposition.
/RantTl;Dr
Charisma determining your physical looks seems odd.
Remember to remind those people! If you're Charisma is 19+, you can be this pretty!
I usually don't worry about appearance in games, unless someone decides to make a big deal about it, then if I'm running it, I make everyone roll for their appearance, giving modifiers based on concept and race.
To the op,
You may be interested in taking a read through these threads:
Practical optimization / Make the numbers fit your roleplaying
Dumping the Charisma
They are a good example of the debates/arguments you may see in your thread. I agree with you, the appearance of a character should be determined by the player not the stats; which can in fact be demonstrated using the PC and monster races in PF Core Rules and Bestiary. That said, charisma does dictate to a degree how well/poorly NPCs will react to you, so you should keep that in mind when deciding your character's appearance.
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Remember to remind those people! If you're Charisma is 19+, you can be this pretty!
SHE. IS. HOT!
EDIT: Kind of what I imagine Michele Bachmann looks like without make-up.
Lets bring back Comeliness!!!! N O T !
Lets bring back Comeliness!!!! N O T !
What an interesting opening line! Must be a challenge for a pokemon battle!
I wonder if anyone will get the joke...
I wonder if anyone will get the joke...
Huh? I thought Celestial Taurus has a contract with Lucy Heartfilia...
*ducks for cover*
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BARBARIAN HAVE 7 CHARISMA. AM THIS MEAN BARBARIAN UGLY? PERISH THOUGHT. BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS LOOKING MIGHTYFINE. AM WHY BARBARIAN ABLE TO NEVER NEED SHIRT, ONLY CAPE AND GLASSES. BARBARIAN AM GETTING ALL THE LADIES, ALWAYS.
FROM GETTING ALL LADIES, ALWAYS BARBARIAN AM ALSO ABLE TO SAY 7 CHA AM NOT MAKE LADY UGLY EITHER. GENERALLY AM JUST TERMINALLY SHY OR AMAZINGLY BLUNT AND MEAN.
WHAT AM BARBARIAN 7 CHARISMA REPRESENTED BY? THERAPIST AM TELLING BARBARIAN IT AM REPRESENTING DEEP SEATED SOCIAL ABNORMALITY STEMMING FROM NOT UNDERSTANDING BASIC SOCIAL TENETS AND PROTOCOLS REQUIRED TO GET THROUGH EVERYDAY LIFE. THIS AM CAUSING STUNTED SOCIAL GROWTH AND INABILITY FOR BARBARIAN TO MAKE FRIENDS OR MEANINGFUL SOCIAL COMBAT.
BARBARIAN THINK THAT AM CRAPPY EXPLANATION. SMASH THERAPIST, THEN AM RIDING OFF ON BATTY BAT.
ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO FIND NEW THERAPIST?
MEANINGFUL SOCIAL COMBATFound the problem.
AM JUST MEANING BARBARIAN NOT GOOD AT DIPLOMACY AND BLUFF ROLLS.
BARBARIAN HAVE KILLER INTIMIDATE CHECK.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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MEANINGFUL SOCIAL COMBATFound the problem.AM JUST MEANING BARBARIAN NOT GOOD AT DIPLOMACY AND BLUFF ROLLS.
BARBARIAN HAVE KILLER INTIMIDATE CHECK.
I meant that your therapist probably said "contact" while you said "combat".
And I think you just confirmed the issue.
But not to worry! There's actually a pretty easy way around it:
Take the Cosmopolitan feat. You'll learn two new languages (helpful for engineering conventions where there might be a wide range of speakers) and get to make two skills into class skills: just choose Diplomacy and something else (perhaps Bluff). Start putting in ranks and you'll have above-average social skills in no time!
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Yay, this thread again!
So...
Eh, "affects appearance" does not correlate with "being beautiful". Something can appear quite striking, but not be lovely in the slightest.
THAT SAID, that's the RAW interpretation (i.e. that appearance is controlled by Charisma).
While I often work with that, I primarily institute my home rules in which I have derivative ability scores that don't actually give you benefits, but tell you how people generally perceive you: appearance, luck, and power. None of those actually control mechanics, but are built off of them. You choose one physical ability score and one mental ability score and, using those, get your three derivatives. Each ability score can only be used once. Thus you get high charisma, low "appearance" people (in this case, appearance does roughly equate to beauty, despite my assertion above).
Some exude an aura of power (strong, muscular warriors, or highly intellectual wizards) but aren't necessarily lovely to look upon (unflattering scars or a generally ugly face). This both allows players to describe their general appearance while still giving them limits to work with/build on. It requires some general acceptance on what each of the descriptions mean - a beautiful, powerful person might be considered "lucky" by some, but I generally use "lucky" in this context in the sense of surviving ridiculous things), so it it's imperfect, at best, but it gets the idea across and allows players to play up attributes according to what they have.
So, yeah. I'm satisfied with the rules, but I like my house-rules better. :)
Charisma does, to a certain extent, determine your attractiveness. That is to say not your physical attractiveness, but your personality. As for undead and other creatures it's probably more of their force of will.
In my games Charisma is a combination of all these things. It's generally assumed the ladies are always pretty, no matter what their Charisma, haha.
It's also an ongoing joke in our game to ask "What's this bartender/barmaid's Charisma?" Should we be in a tavern at any point.
All-in-all it's of little relevance to the game, so no one really makes a deal out of it. Which is saying something cause our group loves to argue.
I let my players decide how they look. If they have a low Cha then they can define that some other way than ugly if they want to.
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I think the essence of charisma is correct for the game, but the name is lacking. In one game I play, it's called presence.
"Presence represents the impression which the character is able to make on others. A high Presence can be gained from good looks, social class, carrying yourself in a strong manner, or simply by knowing how to stand out in a crowd. A character with an impressive Presence need not be physically attractive. In fact, a hulking brute can make as much of an impression on an enemy in battle as the beautiful princess does at the winter festival."
Part of the problem might be that, your character didn't grow up. In real life, if one has a general high physical appearance, I think those people may also tend to have a natural high charisma, as they become accustomed to what their looks help them get away with.
The same with the opposite being true, where someone who is generally unattractive may have a lower charisma, as the amount and level of social interactions they have growing up may be negative.
Now, the above are both generalizations, but i think they both influence the tie of physical appearance to charisma.
Also, numbers wise, it might be easier for a DM to say, she's a 16, rather then "she's tall, with sandy brown hair, wavy past her shoulders. She has green eyes and a golden light complexion sprinkled with freckles" for the random barmaid that catches a players eye" and then hope that description reflects the players idea of attractive.
Charisma can serve as a catch-all, because it doesn't factor in race, gender, personal hangups, etc. A female elf with 18 charisma has the same charisma whether they're talking to a male elf, orc or illithid. Now, the diplomacy modifier might change, and they might all differ on their idea of physically attractive, but the charisma doesn't change.
I removed a post and the replies to it. Baiting is bad.
MEANINGFUL SOCIAL COMBATFound the problem.AM JUST MEANING BARBARIAN NOT GOOD AT DIPLOMACY AND BLUFF ROLLS.
BARBARIAN HAVE KILLER INTIMIDATE CHECK.
I meant that your therapist probably said "contact" while you said "combat".
And I think you just confirmed the issue.
But not to worry! There's actually a pretty easy way around it:
Take the Cosmopolitan feat. You'll learn two new languages (helpful for engineering conventions where there might be a wide range of speakers) and get to make two skills into class skills: just choose Diplomacy and something else (perhaps Bluff). Start putting in ranks and you'll have above-average social skills in no time!
No, Social combat is appropriate as well, especially in high society, it could very well mean war.
Lets bring back Comeliness!!!! N O T !
Was going to say... did any edition other than 1st AD&D have that stat? And it wasn't even around until Unearthed Arcana iirc (along with the Cavalier and Barbarian classes).
I removed a post and the replies to it. Baiting is bad.I'm surprised you let charisma threads even start.
Well sometimes you have this number here that people don't agree to what it means.
Unlike in a video game where you can set a number to be used how it's going to be used whether people agree with it or not, in table top games, clarity on what that number is being used for is important. So threads like this pop up.
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Lets bring back Comeliness!!!! N O T !
Was going to say... did any edition other than 1st AD&D have that stat? And it wasn't even around until Unearthed Arcana iirc (along with the Cavalier and Barbarian classes).
I think it was only in 1e AD&D. However, I do remember it popping up somewhere in 2e AD&D... May be an issue of Dragon or something.