First off, if we assume shield wall and toughness (you did further up), 10 hp per soldier (7 was just HD + con mod). Meaning you would have to get an 11 or a 12 to knock anyone unconscious (an 8.32%).
Well no, I was told the investment was in Shield Tactics and Toughness, it seems to vary up a bit during Abrahams lectures, sometimes the guys are as high as Level 5 Fighters, no less.
So assuming that build, they are all just suffering greatly reduced HP and now all stuck on difficult terrain.
At that point they might have morale problems too.
The whole point is that something as pedestrian as an L2 spell can have pretty significant impact on a battlefield, you don't need major league hitters to do significant damage to a significant number of people in one hit. 40' radius is quite a huge impact area. Other spells may similarly create problems, such as spike growth etc
@Abraham, I truly find it the height of comedy that you want to talk about lectures, go back and read your posts. I especially like the lectures you give where you BOLD up text as though you are just barely able to summon the will to point out your 'genius' to others. I'm going to stick to my point, your name calling was tacky,
Now, now Shifty, Abraham, lets not let this degenerate this has been a fun and useful thread. The cleric healing most or all of their hp would do a great bit for morale IMHO. Nothing boosts morale like the power of the gods on your side. You also seem to be disregarding the cleric. They are "badly injured" for a few seconds.
Though the Clerics channel can only hit a footprint around half the size of the 40' blast, thats the hassle. So there's still going to be some unhappy dudes.
I'd like a nice set of massed combat rules so we can get a good grasp of morale etc.
I remember in 1st and 2nd Ed BATTLESYSTEM that sort of damage hitting the tiles would create real problems and invoke the 'wounded' condition.
Oh here it is:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/58246471/Tsr01019-Battle-System-Boxed-Set
I think one other assumption that might need doing away with is the idea that ever soldier in the unit happens to be the same level. I think that works for GM convenience but likely does not reflect the reality. Some troops will die and get replaced, others will level in different ways, still some will simply get more levels. A unit of soldiers will consist of green recruits, the leftovers from broken and destroyed squads and hardened veterans who open their mouths wide when the stone fall comes because it's the best breakfast they've had in weeks.
So, I'm going to bed now because it's 2am and I'm not Australian.
I think when I get back I'm going to broach the subject of non-humans into the equation and why you do not go to war with the dwarves. EVER.
Medieval artillery? No. Pathfinder artillery? Sure, its as good as the guy aiming it. I'll just have my caster with a decent spot check casting faerie fire to help out.
Fireball goes further.
Its a case of the wizard needing to spot a cannon next to a small building vs the cannoneer trying to spot, basically the guy holding a stick and a pike amid 500 people holding pikes.
You can't just look for the guy who's clueless. They're peasants, they're all clueless.
Though the Clerics channel can only hit a footprint around half the size of the 40' blast, thats the hassle. So there's still going to be some unhappy dudes.
I'd like a nice set of massed combat rules so we can get a good grasp of morale etc.
I remember in 1st and 2nd Ed BATTLESYSTEM that sort of damage hitting the tiles would create real problems and invoke the 'wounded' condition.
Oh here it is:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/58246471/Tsr01019-Battle-System-Boxed-Set
Well I was writing such a system but I'm being sidetracked wiht 5000 words worth of items to write.
There's the kingmaker rules which are quick adn easy but nto what we're looking for and the Warpath rules which are decent enough. Take a look at those.
Strangely enough, the BATTLESYSTEM rules probably still work quite well, but are very 'wargamey'.
I agree that not all the dudes in a unit are going to be the same level, but I think the nature of any massed battle system sort of has to even it out - we need to be able to resolve things dozens of people at a time, one level 2 dude isn't going to make too much a difference overall when we get to upscale encounters.
But then Battlesystem makes room for that too.
Though the Clerics channel can only hit a footprint around half the size of the 40' blast, thats the hassle. So there's still going to be some unhappy dudes.
I'd like a nice set of massed combat rules so we can get a good grasp of morale etc.
I remember in 1st and 2nd Ed BATTLESYSTEM that sort of damage hitting the tiles would create real problems and invoke the 'wounded' condition.
Oh here it is:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/58246471/Tsr01019-Battle-System-Boxed-Set
I don't really think we need battle system rules personally (just my oppinion) as it is something better handled "behind the curtain" as it were (IMO, again). You have a point with the cleric only healing, assuming all troups around the cleric were level 1 warriors (which we are for this exercise). A new tactic could be introduced to "cycle" wounded soldiers closer to the cleric. Bat at this point, warfare begins to evolve beyond medieval warefare, which it did anyways when we included wizards and clerics.
Though the Clerics channel can only hit a footprint around half the size of the 40' blast, thats the hassle. So there's still going to be some unhappy dudes.
However unlike the wizard's spell he's going to be placed in prime position to heal the most most effectively.
The wizard is going to lose a large mass of targeting to empty space still (even at the most packed organized units didn't tighten up enough to get the maximum number of targets as you are assuming.
Also the 30 foot burst of channel energy compared to the 40 foot cylinder means 96 people maximum are healed for 1 cleric out of the 156 you hit maximum with stone call.
The real question comes down to as everyone has stated what's actually on the field.
Might I suggest this as a starting point?
and this?
Fireball goes further.
Fire ball has a maximum range of 1,200 feet for a level 20 caster with no metamagic feats.
A light catapult exceeds that by 300 feet while a cannon has a range of 1,000 feet.
Also it's a matter of where the cannon is too, and how the wizard is getting to range. A siege situation isn't going to favor him highly on that.
Besides the cannon has a hardness of 10 and 70 hp.
Your fire ball is looking at 35 points of damage on average, halved, and then having 10 subtracted -- so 7 points of damage to the cannon and that's at caster level 10 - more likely you'll have a caster level of 5 and only be getting about 15 points of damage to start with meaning no damage to the cannon. You are much better off trying to kill the crew, and hoping they don't have any defenses set up to protect against this (which they will).
Value of a level 3 mage = 3000 gold.
How are you hitting that number?
Value of a level 3 mage = 3000 gold.How are you hitting that number?I'm too lazy to go get my book from the other room, so I hit up the PRD. Under the "Gamemastering" section, it lists the character wealth by level of a level 3 character at 3,000 gold. That's where I found my number, if you'd prefer I use a different one to generate some hatred for a level 3 caster, let me know!
Also, a brief aside about the level 20 wizard. If he's in the army, you'd be dealing with much larger armies. Otherwise, his presence would be so unbalanced as to render the entire debate about it moot.
I came up with 360, as the cost of him casting all of his 1st/2nd level spells.
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Not further. 250ft + 250ft per 2 levels of the commander (effectively) for a cannon, 400 + 40 per level for fireball.
Yeah, but the wizard isn't wearing armor, most likely, and by pathfinder rules, its still just a spot check.
A spot check made at -40 when the wizard can make a disguise check and take 10. He'll be fine.
Also it's a matter of where the cannon is too, and how the wizard is getting to range. A siege situation isn't going to favor him highly on that.
Siege tactics are different.
Besides the cannon has a hardness of 10 and 70 hp.
Whats the hardness and hp of the gunpowder?
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Very well. If we're ignoring any other gear that a person might have, any expenses for utilizing said person, I choose 360 warriors with clubs and shortspears. I like this outcome even more.
I came up with 360, as the cost of him casting all of his 1st/2nd level spells.
Back in 3.5 mercenaries were a couple of silver a day, and they came with their own armor and weapons.
Back in 3.5 mercenaries were a couple of silver a day, and they came with their own armor and weapons.I do not see anything in the PRD that says that, and I didn't want to incur the wrath of the more erudite.
If we're only counting the cost of things expended in the battle, sign my mercs up for two tanglefoot bags, three smokesticks, five alchemist's fire, and 70 gold to float the cost of however you want 'em hired.
The closest thing I found in PF was a foot soldier would sign up for 10% of the treasure, which is why I went with 3.5
Siege tactics are different.
Agreed
Whats the hardness and hp of the gunpowder?
Inside it's metal container? hardness 10 so hp doesn't matter your level 5 caster isn't busting it.
Got to love these jumping caster levels by the way -- we've been from 3 all the way up to 20 at different points. Your going to need caster level 8 to reliably do a single point of damage to metal.
BTW the level 5 caster is going to have less range than the cannon by 100 feet.
Not further. 250ft + 250ft per 2 levels of the commander (effectively) for a cannon, 400 + 40 per level for fireball.Yeah, but the wizard isn't wearing armor, most likely, and by pathfinder rules, its still just a spot check.
A spot check made at -40 when the wizard can make a disguise check and take 10. He'll be fine.
Um... I'm not seeing how you are using a disguise to give a -40 to seeing him. If you said stealth or something I might slide with that but honestly a disguise check and you're just dropping a -40? That's not how the disguise skill works.
Very well. If we're ignoring any other gear that a person might have, any expenses for utilizing said person, I choose 360 warriors with clubs and shortspears. I like this outcome even more.
I came up with 360, as the cost of him casting all of his 1st/2nd level spells.
Also allowing for items or not is going to affect what the caster is going to use -- if all you are paying him for is his spells per day he's not going to be using items.
Also allowing for items or not is going to affect what the caster is going to use -- if all you are paying him for is his spells per day he's not going to be using items.Very well. If we're ignoring any other gear that a person might have, any expenses for utilizing said person, I choose 360 warriors with clubs and shortspears. I like this outcome even more.
I came up with 360, as the cost of him casting all of his 1st/2nd level spells.
I acknowledge that, items cost extra or must be provided.
I acknowledge that, items cost extra or must be provided.Also allowing for items or not is going to affect what the caster is going to use -- if all you are paying him for is his spells per day he's not going to be using items.Very well. If we're ignoring any other gear that a person might have, any expenses for utilizing said person, I choose 360 warriors with clubs and shortspears. I like this outcome even more.
I came up with 360, as the cost of him casting all of his 1st/2nd level spells.
Sorry didn't mean to be accusatory with that just pointing it out.
Honestly I almost think we would be best off setting a gold limit, and seeing what each person brings to the table with that, and granting a certain number of levels that can be used however they want with a certain number that can have elite stats, while the rest have average.
With those three limits we could then show armies of various compositions that are built on semi-equal grounds.
@ Abraham
I did not perceive your post as an accusation, merely clarifying. no apologies necessary. I like your idea, but I am not sure how much it would help in discerning tactics overall. Also, a level cap would be required.
yeah I would suggest a 25% population limit for elite array, level cap of 12.
Knowing what armies we have would help define the tactics used and then see what comes out and if that matches with what we know of tactics already.
Might I also suggest something along the lines of "For each 12th level character in your army, there must be 2 11th level, etc."? So as not to have an army composed of only 12th level characters.
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I'm posting this from my iPad and without time to calculate such things, so if someone else has time or inclination.....
Banner of energy resistance - mass energy resistance to anyone within 30 ft
Banner of magical reflection - rebounds spell cast at unit towards the caster
Banner of concealment - provides an illusory effect that makes them hard to target.
Castles would most likely have devices like infernal machines that provide protective wards.
Pacts can work for defense as much as anything else. When the castles are built, elementals and other planar creatures may be bound to defend them in times of attack, particularly against aerial or subterranean assault. Like a trigger effect.
Walls may well be built with small pockets of force beads to prevent passing through them
Tactical rooms and tents with lead lining to stop scry and fry.
Mass illusion effects to ask your army.
A cabal flow level casters working to provide a "blanket magical barrier" as a ritual during the battle.
All of these are likely in a truly magical world, they just haven't been statted up for pathfinder yet.
I believe the stronghold builders guide had some stuff init from 3.0 that would be useful as well.
Cheers
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Just had another idea,
I imagine that part of the build up to any war would include the buying off or ilimination of potential ally casters in the realm. A kind of cold war theme of espionage and wetworks as political negotiations start to fail.
Sounds like a great way to start an AP actually (if I do say so myself)
Cheers
Just had another idea,
I imagine that part of the build up to any war would include the buying off or ilimination of potential ally casters in the realm. A kind of cold war theme of espionage and wetworks as political negotiations start to fail.
Sounds like a great way to start an AP actually (if I do say so myself)
Cheers
This is the sort of role I could see PCs having in a war.
Um... I'm not seeing how you are using a disguise to give a -40 to seeing him. If you said stealth or something I might slide with that but honestly a disguise check and you're just dropping a -40? That's not how the disguise skill works.
Yes. That is exactly how the disguise skill works.
Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others' Perception check results.
Perception: Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
Plant a few bonsai trees and you can get a halfling to look like an ogre at the right distance.
Inside it's metal container? hardness 10 so hp doesn't matter your level 5 caster isn't busting it.
You don't need to bust it. Just wait till they open the door to go in and get the powder. Its a temporary shack remember, and fireball is a spread , you shoot past and over the front of the building to the door.
Or just shoot the crew. They're the ones standing next to the ginormous cannon. Makes them stand out a lot more than the wizard.
Assume only 10% of the population is available for deployment - the rest represents, the old, young, the pregnant/nursing, rear guard and people who can't be readily freed up.
Though I don't disagree with all your points 10% is a ludicriously low number. When the lords men come through to collect fighters they're looking for "every able bodied man." Which is a very loose definition. "Men" can be as young as 10-12 depending on how big they are. It's up to the discression of the seargeant in charge of collecting. Plus children were simply viewed as smaller adults until well after the industrial revolution. If you have a big kid he'd be readily conscripted.
Also there were very few "old people" prior to advanced medicine. 40-50 years was a long life in the middle ages. Additionally pesant lifespan was probably closer to 35 years due to the many hardships and litlte medical attention. Fewer old people means higher population percentage that are conscriptable.
I think you'd be looking at closer to 40% of a given population. That's an estimate, but it's certainly greater than 10%.
Edit: furthere the feudal lord doesn't care about the pesants livelihoods individually. he has a war to fight. Compared to the lord losing his land and probably life the viability of his economy is a secondary consideration at best.
I was being conservative - not trying to make it a war like the year of 1066 where the english villages were stripped of able bodied men, because after Hastings, the English had NOTHING left.
Ok... call it 20% but it couldn't be 40% unless they were stripping females out as well.
Call it 25 and we have a deal! ;-)
I don't know an exact number, but ten seems really low.
Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.
Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.
But how many of those would even consider going into mass combat?
Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.But how many of those would even consider going into mass combat?
not me. Thats what summoned balors are for. ;-)
not me. Thats what summoned balors are for. ;-)Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.But how many of those would even consider going into mass combat?
Alright so how many of those are capable of summoning a balor?
Alright so how many of those are capable of summoning a balor?not me. Thats what summoned balors are for. ;-)Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.But how many of those would even consider going into mass combat?
just me. What do i care about the rest?
p.s. im not debating. its a joke.
Alright so how many of those are capable of summoning a balor?not me. Thats what summoned balors are for. ;-)Remember, if you're only one in a million there are 7,000 of you on the planet.But how many of those would even consider going into mass combat?just me. What do i care about the rest?
p.s. im not debating. its a joke.
I know, just illustrating a point. :P
Not every caster is going to be suited for combat. Most will just as likely avoid it at all costs no matter how much conscription the nation tries to enforce.