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Sure. I'll assume PFS equivalent (no monster feats)
Half-elf Synthasist (half elf) 10
Str: 7 (31)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (20)
Con: 14 (20)
Chr: 21 (23)
Circlet of Persuasion
Amulet of Mighty Fist +1
+2 Headband (Cha)
+2 Belt of physical perfection
2 Wands of lesser extend
Cracked ioun stones (+1 Init, +1 saves)
1 wand of lesser widen (for black tentacles)
All class points put towards evolutions (so he has 2 extra now)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes Power Attack
Evolution: Large, Bite (improved), Claws, Electric Attack, Trip (Bite), Wings, Improved Natural Armor (3)
AC (extended Mage armor assumed): 10 + 4 (Mage armor) +2 (Eidilon Shiled) + 18 (natural) + 5 (dex) = 39
HP: (8+ 45 + 27) = 80 without Eidilon. With Eidilon con goes up by 4, so 98, then you get the Eidilon's hps as temp 8 * 5.5 + 5 * 5.5, and you get 20 extra hp for his higher con. So 100 + 71 temp.
Attacks: +8 BAB + 10 Str + 1 magic -1 size = +18
Damage: bite: 3d6 + 16 + trip (CMB: +23, 8 BAB, 4 Feats, 10 Str, 1 Size)
Claws: d8 + d6 +10 * 4
Can be -2 / +4 on all attacks, if desired.
Tactics; when closing he typically goes in @ 15 feat and tried to bite (15 foot reach), and knock them over. When people close he uses his 6 AOOs with his bite to attempt to get them down on the ground, then moves up with his 10 foot reach claws and tears them apart. If there is a dangerous group, he creates a 40 foot black tentacles vs caster types or drops slow on melee types. if he can buff he tosses on an extended enlarge person so he can be even more silly.
1) Mage armor, grease, enlarge person, random utility
2) Lesser Surge, Summon Eidilon, Slow, haste, wind wall
3) Black tentacles, surge, Summon monster IV, D Door
4) Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport
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do it your self. thats the fun of the game. the only thing worse than a minmaxing munkin is some one that cant do it them selfs.
You posted on the advice forums telling someone to not ask for advice?
...Anyway:
Cool options for you include being bipedal and being a casting fighter, or going quadruped and getting natural attacks with pounce. There's also the option to get great skill checks with the skill evolutions.
One of the most interesting suggestions I've seen was to keep your character's constitution higher than your eidolon's; that way, you can reduce your HP to -1 to save your eidolon, and go unconscious. You'll then immediately go up to the positives again and can cast Summon Eidolon to continue the fight.
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The Master Summoner vs regular summoner vs synthasist is debatable.
Synth is the most survivable. The armor encases the otherwise squishy summoner (the GM may otherwise target down the summoner, which makes the Eidilon fall). Good hiding helps for the others. They also get to dump Str and Dex with no
Game effect.
Regular summoners get the most powerful Eidilon, and can buff and attack in the same round. If the Eidilon falls they can fall back to being monster generators.
Master summoners have a way of making GMs cry. At level 5, if you felt like it, you could summoner d4+2 (average 4.5) celestial riding dogs (augmented) 11 times / day. So if you did it all at once, that would be an army of 49 dogs running havoc in all directions. They can be scary, and get worse when Lanten Archons and such start flooding. They also get a usually-support monkey Eidilon to bring in for trap detection etc. But the ability is limited on times/day, and while you monster generate you aren't buffing. Still, in dungeon settings where each of these summons last a few combats they cannot be beat.
Regular have the most powerful Eidilon (they can take extra evolution, which synth doesn't qualify for) and gets 2 actions per round (buff and attack). They can also make any eidolon pounce a la maker's call.
So choose your poison, this is one of the few times I don't think there is a wrong call, as arguments can be made for each.
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Master Summoner (Human)
Str: 7
Int: 7 (we're assuming min-max right?)
Wis: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 19 (+1 level = 20 + 2 item = 22)
Feats: Superior Summons, Toughness, Iron Will, Great Fortitude. Basically feats should focus on defense; you don't attack,
Class bonus at 4 and 5 builds up your spell book (more utility); 1-3 is hp.
HP: 11 + (5+3/lvl)*4 + 3 = 46
Wears a Mithril Chain Shirt (barely under 7 Str requirement), and stays out of combat. Slow and haste are signature spells, with the odd grease or enlarge-a-fighter.
Summon Monster III 11 / day (d4+2 riding dogs +5 to hit d6+3 damage +trip)
Remember summoning doesn't dismiss invis, and you should take a talent to make stealth a class skill anyway. Invisibility go into a room and start summoning dogs till there are 50 eating everything in sight, then open doors for the dogs and walk through the dungeon.
Eidilon (small Naga)
Str: 8
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 11
Chr: 10
Class skills (maxed): perception, disable device, diplomacy, stealth
Evolution: Limbs (arms), +8 Perception, Improved Natural Armor
Brought in to handle traps in dungeons.
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You seem very knowledgeable thalin and I appriciate all of your help. If all are good, ( powerful), hmm 49 riding dogs, all at once? Wow now that is something. That sounds like a great way to show someone how powerful it would be.
What does that look like chracter wise? If you are to busy for a full build out I under stand, just what abilities should I prioritize, feat ideas ( was thinking agment summons, spell focus conjuration, maybe improved init, then leader ship at 7 as our group doesnt seem to think it is that powerful either) What do you think?
There's no need to budget for Spell Focus or Augment Summoning, because the Master Summoner gets Augment as a bonus feat at level 2.
Master summoners have a way of making GMs cry. At level 5, if you felt like it, you could summoner d4+2 (average 4.5) celestial riding dogs (augmented) 11 times / day. So if you did it all at once, that would be an army of 49 dogs running havoc in all directions. They can be scary, and get worse when Lanten Archons and such start flooding. They also get a usually-support monkey Eidilon to bring in for trap detection etc. But the ability is limited on times/day, and while you monster generate you aren't buffing. Still, in dungeon settings where each of these summons last a few combats they cannot be beat.
A bit of a side tangent. I thought summon monster I was changed from riding dogs to dogs in the errata. When I looked, it was only summon natures ally that had this change.
Riding dogs are nasty for summon monster 1.
Back on topic, I agree that the master summoner is just insane.
Sure. I'll assume PFS equivalent (no monster feats)
Half-elf Synthasist (half elf) 10
That character is brutal. He can out brawl +3 CR beasts like the Adult Blue dragon or Storm Giant on his own.... that is kind of ridiculous.
What are his weaknesses? Low saves, maybe troubles with DR? He seems like a one man campaign crusher.
To the OP, having played a summoning and pet focused druid in my last campaign, I would reccomend -against- Master Summoner. Not because it isn't powerful, it is. But because it requires alot of homework, preparation, and clarity. You have to have stats for lots of different creatures ready all the time, and work really hard not to unreasonably slow down combat when your turns come. The main problem with the class isn't the power, it's not annoying your fellow party members by slowing combats to a halt. I put a tonne of effort into streamlining those aspects and still found myself at medium levels eating alot of real world time with my turns.
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Yeah, crocs and riding dogs are CR1 (instead of 1/2) and should be removed, but haven't. You summon dogs till level 7, where you switch to armies if lantern archons, considerably worse. As a master summon even at 5 you can use 1 summon to get a
Lantern archon whose sole responsibility is to cast aid on party members (+1 to hit, d8+3 temporary hp) and menacing aura and recast aid if someone loses their temp hp. Summons don't have to just do damage; the original setup never took into account summons that last mins/lvl
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Back on topic, I agree that the master summoner is just insane.
Add a 1-level dip in Bard (Archetype Animal Speaker from UM for even more Summons) to boost them (and your other allies) with your performances. Note that if you meet its TPA prerequisites (and have the Extra Performance feat), the Master Performer feat from the Faction Guide will increase this boost without the need for further levels in Bard.
Finally, take a 1-level dip in Cavalier (Order of the Dragon for added boost to your nearby allies) to get a faithful Mount who will also share in all these nice bonuses and use Tactician to give them all a good Teamwork feat such as Shake It Off (from UC). Alternately, the Standard Bearer Archetype from UC will boost your allies even more, though at the cost of your Mount.
Just remember to boost your Handle Animal to guide all your animals (including the Celestial/Fiendish ones) around and invest in Linguistics for the Celestial, Abyssal and Elemental languages to do the same with your higher level-summons.
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If you're going to dip (which I do not recommend), you take 1 level of oracle of nature, and use a feat for extra revalation. Then you can dump Dex to 7 and use your Chr for AC (on this build +6 AC), and since you have the spell Summon Nature's ally on your spell list you access the feat moonlight summons (free blindsight on all summons; take that Invis guys). Also, all the riding dogs you summon get +your Cha on all saves. Despite all of that I still recommend getting more spells online.
At this level? Lantern archon is the best general (the aid-buff is awesome), earth elemental is the best scout if you learn Terran (as you should, your skills are linguist and stealth)... They sink into the earth and ignore doors and other things that would block sight, air elemtals can deliver messages (they fly 5 miles in the 5 mins you have them). Those should cover most random utility at 5th level.
The Synth has no true weaknesses; his saves are good relatively (18 dex / 20 con / 14 Wis +2 half-elf bonus on will +3 all saves, 2 for the Eidilon fuse protection bonus 1 for the ioun stone). If you're worried about saves you could spend 2 levels on pally after 8 (your big power level) and add +7 to all saves, but it stunts you somewhat in other places. But even without he is Ref +11 (with evasion) Will +14 Ref +12.... far better than most.
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Yes, it was proven to me. You can use magic items to qualify for slots, and eidilons as well. Basically anything you can wear for 24 hours. You lose access to the feat when you lose the prereq.
Just read Shadow's argument; didn't know it was up for debate. If not, power attack is nice but often not used; so if you don't q no big deal, just take Great Fortitude or some such.
And one would think; but there is actually both a head(circlet) slot and a headband (headband) slot. Look it up :).
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So, I am just guessing you can use your Fused ability scores and the prereqs for feats, and not jsut the summonors base scores for the synthasist. Is that correct?No, since your eidolon can't be with you 24 hours of the day, the ability score mods aren't "permanent", and so can not be counted as pre-reqs.
Upon leveling up, pull an all-nighter while wearing your eidolon suit. At the end of the crazy party, you've learned how to power attack.
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5th level Synth:
Str: 7 (20) Int: 14 Wis: 14 Dex: 7 (14) Con: 14 (both forms) Chr: 20 (22)
AC: 22 (26 with Mage armor, which you should keep up usually)
Evolutions: Bite, Slam, Electric, Reach(Bite), Improved Strength, Improved Natural Armor (2)
Wearing Amulet +1 and Headband +2. Saving for belt +2 Str with remainder.
attacks: +10 to hit for d8 + d6 + 6 / 2d6 +6 / d4 + d6 + 6 * 2.
Cast enlarge person on self: 3d6 + 7 / d8 + d6 +7 / 2d6 + 7 * 2
Use the free AOOs to trip (CMB +12) when people try to close (bite has reach), rather than going for damage.
2nd level spells should be haste, summon Eidilon, and Invis (in case you get caught while sleeping and need to move out). 1st are grease, enlarge person, comprehend languages, and Mage armor.
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5th level Synth:
Str: 7 (20) Int: 14 Wis: 14 Dex: 7 (14) Con: 14 (both forms) Chr: 20 (22)
AC: 22 (26 with Mage armor, which you should keep up usually)
Evolutions: Bite, Slam, Electric, Reach(Bite), Improved Strength, Improved Natural Armor (2)Wearing Amulet +1 and Headband +2. Saving for belt +2 Str with remainder.
attacks: +10 to hit for d8 + d6 + 6 / 2d6 +6 / d4 + d6 + 6 * 2.
Cast enlarge person on self: 3d6 + 7 / d8 + d6 +7 / 2d6 + 7 * 2Use the free AOOs to trip (CMB +12) when people try to close (bite has reach), rather than going for damage.
2nd level spells should be haste, summon Eidilon, and Invis (in case you get caught while sleeping and need to move out). 1st are grease, enlarge person, comprehend languages, and Mage armor.
I've always been a fan of the wand of mage armour, and learning shield instead. You can pull off the same AC reliably (and how often do you need more than an hour at a time) and can clock it up to 30 with a standard action.
Honestly, the only real hassle I've noticed with the Synthesist is the difficulty of recovering temporary hit points - there's no conventional way to do it, even outside of battle. So while you're initially an uber juggernaut, your vitality gets whittled away, little by little.
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Biped form, quad cannot slam well and you have to buy arms to cast.
10 + 2 (dex) +6 (natural armor with form @ 5) +4 (evolutions) +2 (shield special boost for merged form). So 24 actually. 28 Mage armored.
And the synth has a 2 shield bonus already, so shield isn't actually effectI've. Plus, I like Mage armor cast to last 5 hours, and until I have most of my big items I hate to even spend 750 on a wand. It's expensive @ low levels. Maho did remind me you need the wand of rejuv Eidilon though; I'm used to pFS where wands are bought with prestige, not money @ low, so spending money on them makes me sad.
So, I am just guessing you can use your Fused ability scores and the prereqs for feats, and not jsut the summonors base scores for the synthasist. Is that correct?This is a matter of debate. Most, including myself, say no. (Edit: Probably should say "some" rather than "most." Further edit: It most likely does work so take me out of the "no" catagory.)
The yes side, however, points out that the ability bonuses can stay for 24 hours (and however long you stay awake) and thus be treated as permenant, at least long enough to buy the feat. Once the feat is gained, you don't have to worry about rather or not the bonuses are pemenant, when you qualify for the feat, even with temporary bonuses like the eidolon, it comes online.
That said, 7 strength, with a +6 strength belt is enough to allow you to qualify for power attack.
Actually there was a thread where that was brought up and answered by one of the developers - they said you could use the fused stats for feat pre-req's (someone help me out with ah link here...)
Honestly, the only real hassle I've noticed with the Synthesist is the difficulty of recovering temporary hit points - there's no conventional way to do it, even outside of battle. So while you're initially an uber juggernaut, your vitality gets whittled away, little by little.
Lesser Restore Eidolon works on a synthesist's eidolon. restores 1d10 + caster level HP (max of +5) to the Eidolon. FAQ on the UM book's page confirms this will work on a fused eidolon.
Also, I ran a Master Summoner halfling to level 8 in recent campaign, DM called a halt. I made index cards (35 of them) with the dogs, and 10 for Lantern Archons I also bought a stack of small poker chips and numbered them with little round stickies 1-35 on blue ones, and 1-10 on the red ones so I would have stacks of instantly available minis. My build was pretty much the same as Thalin's but I didn't burn Dex because I like stealth.
Str 7 (9 -2 racial (-1)) Dex 16 ( 14+2 racial (5)) Con 12 (2) Int 12 (2) Wis 10 (0) Cha 26 (17) [18 +2 racial +1 at 4, 1 at 8 +4 headband]
Spells of note: Mage Armor w/ rod of extend, Grease, Haste, Invisibility, black tentacles w/ rod of enlarge.
Anyhow, out party was: an Oread Melee Druid built following tips from Treantmonk's Guide to Druids, an Elf Wizard following Treantmonk's guide to being GOD, a Changeling Heaven's Mystery Oracle and myself, the Halfling Master Summoner with a small sized Biped skill monkey Eidolon.
General fight went something like this:
Summoner: I summon 1d3 Lantern Archons and they aid the group.
Wizard: Me too!
Oracle: I hold action so when something comes remotely close I can hit it with DC 19 Color Spray and subtract 8 from the HD of everything in the 15' Cone!
Druid: I hold action so whatever falls unconscious in the cone can be pounced on by me and my pet cheetah!
Round 2:
Summoner: I cast enlarged Black Tentacles on the enemy / on the path between us and the enemy... my Lantern Archons can always just teleport to the other side, I don't need a clear path... err I mean we don't need a clear path... sorry guys.
Wizard : Me too!
Oracle I wait with Hypnotic Pattern / color spray at the ready for anything that actually makes it through the tentacles.
Druid: I maul yet another unconscious victim of last rounds colorspray, I hope we can kill them all in the 10 rounds or so that they are useless.
Round 3:
Summoner: I summon another group of Lantern Archons.
Wizard: Me too!
Oracle: I hum a tune while the druid mauls the unconscious bodies all around me.
Druid: munch munch munch, maul maul maul
GM: You know, this really is kinda pointless..... What you say we call a halt for a couple months while I try to figure out how to make this more challenging.
Moral of the Story:
One optimized character = party savior, but play it understated. An Optimized Party is game breaking unless you all underplay your characters.
*drifts in*
+Optional template abuse for basically free ability scores, since size doesn't really matter
Half Elf 13 Summoner(synthesist)
S:10 22
D:12 17
C:14 14
W:16
I:18
C:22 26
HP: 79+(70) 26/1
BAB:10/5 4x claw +16 1d8+6 + Bite 1d8+9 (16/20/20/20/20)
AC:29 10 Fused: +3 dex +4(sheild) +6(nat) +6(armor)
Move:30
Ini:+3+4
CMB:16 = 10+6
CMD:29 = 10+10+3+6
Fort: 4+2+1+3 +4(fused) +2 Enchantment
Refl: 4+3+1+3 +4(fused)
Will: 8+3+1+3 +4(fused)
Craft: 1+4+3
Fly: 13+3+3
Knowledge: 2+4+3 in all
Linguistics: 7+4+3
Profession(jackass):13+3+3+8(SF)
Perception: 3+2
Spellcraft: 13+4+3
UMD: 13+8+3
Feats
Half-Elf:Skill focus proffesion(jackass)
1:Spell focus: Conjuration
3:Augment Summon (+4 str/con)
5:improved initiative
7:Dimensional Agility
9:Dimensional Assault
11:Dimensional Dervish
13:Dimensional Savant
Eidolon: base form Biped 20 points (17 class+3 favored)
x4 Claws (improved Damage), Limbs arms, limbs legs
Bite, Magic Attacks, scent, Undead Appearence(neg heals),
ability increase +4 cha, flight SU ,rend, see in darkness.
Abilities:
LLV, Darkvision, evasion, Multiattack
Immune:sleep
lesser Metamagic extend rod
Robe of Resistance +3
Amulet of might fist Menacing.
Boots of Speed
Spells:
0th: 6 known
Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Mending
Resistance
Arcane Mark
1st: 6 Known 7/day
expeditious retreat
Sheild
Grease
infernal healing
Magic Mouth
Rejuvenate Eidolon Lesser
2nd: 5 Known 7/day
Eagles Splendor
Haste
Phantom Steed
Summon Eidolon
Glitterdust
3rd: 5 Known 6/day
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Evolution Surge
Mad Monkeys
Invisibility Greater
4th: 4 Known 5/day
Wall of Stone
Purified Calling
Hold Monster
Baleful Polymorph
5th: 2 Known 2/day
Dispel Magic,Greater
Summon Monster VII(shadow demons)
Pride, one of the sinspawn in my homebrew game is a pretty nasty synthesist. He usually summons 2 shadow demons and slays things in magical darkness. well he did until my players killed him...
Master Summoner (Human)
Str: 7
Int: 7 (we're assuming min-max right?)
Wis: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 19 (+1 level = 20 + 2 item = 22)Feats: Superior Summons, Toughness, Iron Will, Great Fortitude. Basically feats should focus on defense; you don't attack,
Class bonus at 4 and 5 builds up your spell book (more utility); 1-3 is hp.HP: 11 + (5+3/lvl)*4 + 3 = 46
Wears a Mithril Chain Shirt (barely under 7 Str requirement), and stays out of combat. Slow and haste are signature spells, with the odd grease or enlarge-a-fighter.Summon Monster III 11 / day (d4+2 riding dogs +5 to hit d6+3 damage +trip)
Remember summoning doesn't dismiss invis, and you should take a talent to make stealth a class skill anyway. Invisibility go into a room and start summoning dogs till there are 50 eating everything in sight, then open doors for the dogs and walk through the dungeon.Eidilon (small Naga)
Str: 8
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 11
Chr: 10Class skills (maxed): perception, disable device, diplomacy, stealth
Evolution: Limbs (arms), +8 Perception, Improved Natural Armor
Brought in to handle traps in dungeons.
Another trick with a master summoner is to get the scent evolution. Scent + stupid high perception = really hard to get the drop you your group. Even invis creatures will have issues.
I still like the small biped eidolon named Trap Monkey
at level 8, skills are/were:
Perception, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Stealth (Max on all)
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 11
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
Evolutions:
improved natural armor (1)
skilled +8 perception (1)
skilled +8 DIsable Device (1)
skilled +8 Stealth (1)
skilled +8 Diplomacy (1)
flight (2)
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Another trick with a master summoner is to get the scent evolution. Scent + stupid high perception = really hard to get the drop you your group. Even invis creatures will have issues.
If you have lot of allies/summoned creatures with scent, you will love the Pheromone Arrow (from Elves of Golarion) : alchemical arrow which, in addition to the damage dealt, gives a +2 untyped bonus to attack and damage rolls made against a target marked with the arrow by any creature with the scent ability. And the bonus lasts for 1 hour !!!
Another trick with a master summoner is to get the scent evolution. Scent + stupid high perception = really hard to get the drop you your group. Even invis creatures will have issues.If you have lot of allies/summoned creatures with scent, you will love the Pheromone Arrow (from Elves of Golarion) : alchemical arrow which, in addition to the damage dealt, gives a +2 untyped bonus to attack and damage rolls made against a target marked with the arrow by any creature with the scent ability. And the bonus lasts for 1 hour !!!
Nah, the master summoner's eidolon is really gimp, and not very good at general combat. They are really useful as all purpose skill monkeys though. The +8 to a skill evolution plus skill focus feat plus ranks and stat bonus means that they can have a +20 perception check at level 8 or so. Throw in scent, and no one is sneaking up on you while you have the eidolon out.
I will have to check and see how many creatures on the summon monster list have scent though. That would be useful.
I still like the small biped eidolon named Trap Monkey
at level 8, skills are/were:Perception, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Stealth (Max on all)
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 11
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11Evolutions:
improved natural armor (1)
skilled +8 perception (1)
skilled +8 DIsable Device (1)
skilled +8 Stealth (1)
skilled +8 Diplomacy (1)
flight (2)
Forgot to add Feats, Skill Focus, Stealth, Skill focus Perception, 3 ranks in each of 4 skills
3 ranks +3 class skill bonus, +8 skilled evolution = 14 base in all, dex skills get +2 each for stat bonus, and +3 in stealth and perception for skill focus feats.so
Perception +17
Stealth +19
Disable Device + 16
Diplomacy +14
The only way (aside from intentional misbuilding) you are NOT going to be a huge powerhouse as a summoner is to go the broodmaster archetype, and even then, you will still be plenty viable.
Master Summoner is just broken. I actually don't recommend this archetype with a regular group, because you will make most martial characters obsolete and piss off your friends. Not to mention you'll be taking really long turns, so it's like a double whammy - they are useless and you spend more time doing stuff than they do.
Synthesist is probably weaker than a regular summoner, but it doesn't matter if you're not competing against anyone, so don't worry about it. You've seen the bits about dropping all of your physical stats. Careful of this - not because you might lose your eidolon skin (a possibility but smart play will avoid this) but because you might catch crap because you're min-maxing. I made a synthesist with 2 8's and a 9 in his physical stats (far from min-maxing - scroll up for the venerable half-elf for that), and my GM spent the better part of that one shot complaining about my character - he also used manufactured weapons, which is weaker than just using the natural attacks (at 4th level) you get as a synthesist.
Plus, the synthesist is a blast.
I'm not going to post a build (people have already shown you the best way to do that), I'm just giving you some insight.
Master Summoner is just broken. I actually don't recommend this archetype with a regular group, because you will make most martial characters obsolete and piss off your friends. Not to mention you'll be taking really long turns, so it's like a double whammy - they are useless and you spend more time doing stuff than they do.
Depends on how you play it. All those critters could be giving your fighter and rogue a flanking bonus, and you make sure your buffs like haste hit them first, then carry over to your pets.
