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I just wanted to make sure I'm doing this right. I'm a 3rd level human ranger and spent two Prestige to buy some Oil of Flame Arrow (cost 750) to use on standard arrows. Since the spell works on up to 50 projectiles, I'm assuming I can use the Oil on up to 50 arrows as well, correct?
Also, what are the rules for the 1d6 extra damage when it comes to crits? Is it applied once or does it stack?
ok... wow this is a hard question to answer...
ok as i read it you can use the oil once. it dosent say that you cant smear it on multiple objects, but you can make an oil out of a spell that targets more then one "creature" not "objects". so if i were GMing that game i would say no, only because of the written rules.
page 179 "exception: extra damage dice over and above the weapons normal dice are never multiplied"
so no to that also...
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The spell specifies the arrows have to be in a bundle together when the 'spell' is used. Douse the oil over the mean side of the arrows, done. You weren't even entertaining the idea that a 750gp oil could only be applied to one arrow for d6 damage, did you?
i think this was directed to me... if so yes. if the rules say " you wasted your gold" then you wasted your gold.
You weren't even entertaining the idea that a 750gp oil could only be applied to one arrow for d6 damage, did you?
I don't think he's talking about one arrow vs 50 arrows, I think he's talking about the spell Flame Arrow not being a valid spell to make a potion or oil out of.
Potions: "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures."
Flame Arrow: "Target: fifty projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting"
However, this may not be the intent of the rule, given this line in the Potions section: "The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target." Implying that you smear the oil on an object (rather than smearing it all over yourself) thus an object should be a valid target.
Examples of Oils that affect an object instead of a creature: Oil of Silence, Oil of Align Weapon
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I just wanted to make sure I'm doing this right. I'm a 3rd level human ranger and spent two Prestige to buy some Oil of Flame Arrow (cost 750) to use on standard arrows. Since the spell works on up to 50 projectiles, I'm assuming I can use the Oil on up to 50 arrows as well, correct?
Also, what are the rules for the 1d6 extra damage when it comes to crits? Is it applied once or does it stack?
The target of the spell is 50 projectiles. Arrows are projectiles. Therefore, the spell can be applied to arrows. Applying the oil to a bundle of 50 arrows works fine. I'm not finding the specific text that TheSideKick is citing about single objects, but I think you'll find few objections to using the oil on multiple arrows. If the literal RAW is what he says, so be it. You should be fine anyway.
The oil gets used once, tho. You can't split it up on 10 arrows here, ten arrows there, etc. In the future, you might consider purchasing a scroll of flame arrow and have your friendly wizard cast it on your arrows for a lower cost solution.
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You weren't even entertaining the idea that a 750gp oil could only be applied to one arrow for d6 damage, did you?I don't think he's talking about one arrow vs 50 arrows, I think he's talking about the spell Flame Arrow not being a valid spell to make a potion or oil out of.
Potions: "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures."
Flame Arrow: "Target: fifty projectiles, all of which must be together at the time of casting"
However, this may not be the intent of the rule, given this line in the Potions section: "The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target." Implying that you smear the oil on an object (rather than smearing it all over yourself) thus an object should be a valid target.
Examples of Oils that affect an object instead of a creature: Oil of Silence, Oil of Align Weapon
Well Oil of Silence is a wondrous item and not made with the normal potion rules. I would bet that the oil of align weapon is similar.
Oil of FLame Arrow is specifically mentioned on the Random Potion and Oils tables in the GameMastery Guide (page 125). Oils are created by Brew Potion, and follow the same rules.
Oils still exist, and work exactly the same as they did in 3.5. Paizo didn't copy the entire section - they left out the parts that would of clarified this.
The oil of Silence listed above isn't a "true oil" as is doesn't duplicate the Silence spell. It just makes one firearm silent when fired. That is why it is a wondrous item and not a Potion/Oil.
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Oil of FLame Arrow is specifically mentioned on the Random Potion and Oils tables in the GameMastery Guide (page 125). Oils are created by Brew Potion, and follow the same rules.
Oils still exist, and work exactly the same as they did in 3.5. Paizo didn't copy the entire section - they left out the parts that would of clarified this.
The oil of Silence listed above isn't a "true oil" as is doesn't duplicate the Silence spell. It just makes one firearm silent when fired. That is why it is a wondrous item and not a Potion/Oil.
Yes, they still exist, but don't read 3.5 rules into something that does not contain them.
For oils made with Brew potion, you have to follow the pathfinder rules:
From the Core book on potions:
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures. The price of a potion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 50 gp. If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create. Table: Potions gives sample prices for potions created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster brewing the potion.
Potions and oils made with the brew potion feat, per RAW, must have been made of spells that follow these rules:
a) 3rd level or lowerb) casting time of less then 1 minute
c) targets 1 or more creatures.
d) cannot be a range of "personal"
To make a potion or oil of something that does not follow those rules, it becomes a custom item made with "craft wondrous item" instead.
This is different from 3.5 that only required the potion to not have a range of personal (at least that I remember).
The core rules mention applying oils to objects, so clearly spells that target objects, not creatures, are possible.
The GameMastery Guide has oils, listed with the potions and so following the same rules, that only affect objects. Paizos own treasure tables disagree with you.
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The core rules mention applying oils to objects, so clearly spells that target objects, not creatures, are possible.
The GameMastery Guide has oils, listed with the potions and so following the same rules, that only affect objects. Paizos own treasure tables disagree with you.
The table for AC states that when you are grappled, you loose your dex bonus to AC from people outside of the grapple. It only states this in the table, and does not state this in the text for the grappled condition or anywhere else. The devs answer was to say that when there are discrepancies, to trust the text over the table most times.
Per the rules in the core book (in multiple places) you cannot make a potion or an oil using the brew potion feat, of a spell that does not target "one or more creatures".
I believe that these potions are errors via a cut and paste from a 3.5 table.
There have been other errors in the books.
(Taken a little out of context)
Sean K Reynolds (Developer)[/url]"]
When you learn how to make a potion (by taking the Brew Potion feat), you're learning how to take a spell you know and turn it into a magic drink that targets the person who drinks it (that's why it doesn't work with area spells or spells that affect objects... neither of them target creatures).
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(Taken a little out of context)
Sean K Reynolds (Developer)[/url]"]
When you learn how to make a potion (by taking the Brew Potion feat), you're learning how to take a spell you know and turn it into a magic drink that targets the person who drinks it (that's why it doesn't work with area spells or spells that affect objects... neither of them target creatures).
Thank you Grick. your search-fu is better then mine. :P
And thank you Kalyth for looking.
Potions do work on objects. I've seen examples all over the place, from modules to rulebooks to...well, I just don't know why this is even being discussed.
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Potions do work on objects. I've seen examples all over the place, from modules to rulebooks to...well, I just don't know why this is even being discussed.
"potions" that work on objects are not made with brew potion, but custom items made with Craft Wondrous Item, at least following the rules for crafting potions. To craft a potion using the brew potion feat, it has to have a target of "1 or more creatures" per RAW.
From what I have seen, this is a deliberate change by the devs for Pathfinder, and that some of the modules and such just fail to mention that the "item affecting oils/potions" are actually wondrous items and not true potions.
Potions do work on objects. I've seen examples all over the place, from modules to rulebooks to...well, I just don't know why this is even being discussed."potions" that work on objects are not made with brew potion, but custom items made with Craft Wondrous Item, at least following the rules for crafting potions. To craft a potion using the brew potion feat, it has to have a target of "1 or more creatures" per RAW.
From what I have seen, this is a deliberate change by the devs for Pathfinder, and that some of the modules and such just fail to mention that the "item affecting oils/potions" are actually wondrous items and not true potions.
Allow me to rephrase: Oils work on objects.
The "targets creatures" that keeps getting quoted is for potions (which are imbibed by creatures, not oils (which can be spread on objects or creatures).
You need to read the rules as a whole, not in a vacuum. To do otherwise is to promote misunderstanding, which you are doing.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
The first paragraph is clearly talking about potions and their effects on creatures. The second paragraph is clearly explaining oils and how they are used on objects.
Both potions and oils can be made with the Brew Potion feat. Elixirs, which are entirely different, are made with Craft Wondrous Items.
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Potions do work on objects. I've seen examples all over the place, from modules to rulebooks to...well, I just don't know why this is even being discussed."potions" that work on objects are not made with brew potion, but custom items made with Craft Wondrous Item, at least following the rules for crafting potions. To craft a potion using the brew potion feat, it has to have a target of "1 or more creatures" per RAW.
From what I have seen, this is a deliberate change by the devs for Pathfinder, and that some of the modules and such just fail to mention that the "item affecting oils/potions" are actually wondrous items and not true potions.
Allow me to rephrase: Oils work on objects.
The "targets creatures" that keeps getting quoted is for potions (which are imbibed by people, not oils (which are spread on objects.
You need to read the rules as a whole, not in a vacuum. To do otherwise is to promote misunderstanding, which you are doing.
I have read the rules as a whole and not in a vacuum. I am not trying to promote misunderstanding, just trying to find out what the devs RAI is, since the rules for brewing potions and oils with the "brew potion" feat state one thing, and other things are stated in other places.
From what I have seen (thanks to Gricks search-fu) the RAI is that potions/oils created with the brew potions feat only affect creatures.
...
When you learn how to make a potion (by taking the Brew Potion feat), you're learning how to take a spell you know and turn it into a magic drink that targets the person who drinks it (that's why it doesn't work with area spells or spells that affect objects... neither of them target creatures). So, say you want to make an elixir of tumbling; where's the spell that gives a target +10 to Acrobatics checks for an hour? There isn't one, which is why you can't make a potion out of it. Brew Potion is a non-thinking methodology, like a photocopier--push button, spell becomes potion. Try to make something that doesn't have a source spell, you can't do it.
this quote backs up the rules for brewing potions rather then disputes it.
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Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
The first paragraph is clearly talking about potions and their effects on creatures. The second paragraph is clearly explaining oils and how they are used on objects.
Both potions and oils can be made with the Brew Potion feat. Elixirs, which are entirely different, are made with Craft Wondrous Items.
Caught your edit adding this:
Can you point me in the rules what a spell needs to have to qualify to make it into an oil?
Both potions and oils can be made with the Brew Potion feat.
You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
So if the Potion rules don't apply to Oils, can you make an oil out of a 4th-level spell? What about a spell with a range of personal? Or a spell that targets an area? Or an object?
The problem is that while the Creating Potions section of the Magic Item Creation chapter only says "Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions" while the Potions page says "targets one or more creatures."
Also, SKR's quote was specifically about potions, he never mentioned oils. If the problem is that the Oil rules don't exist, that quote doesn't really support it either way.
A simple fix would be to change the Potions page to say "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures (or objects, in the case of oils)."
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Both potions and oils can be made with the Brew Potion feat.You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.So if the Potion rules don't apply to Oils, can you make an oil out of a 4th-level spell? What about a spell with a range of personal? Or a spell that targets an area? Or an object?
The problem is that while the Creating Potions section of the Magic Item Creation chapter only says "Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions" while the Potions page says "targets one or more creatures."
Also, SKR's quote was specifically about potions, he never mentioned oils. If the problem is that the Oil rules don't exist, that quote doesn't really support it either way.
A simple fix would be to change the Potions page to say "It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures (or objects, in the case of oils)."
That is why I created this thread. I hope that we can get that cleared up one way or the other without interrupting other threads.
If Sean was referring to potions AND oils, than he is wrong. Until he puts out errata, there's no room for discussion of the RAW. The rules clearly allow for potions (or rather oils) to be used on objects.
You can find the rules for oils in the Magic Item chapter under POTIONS.
Potions are potions. Oils are also potions. Really, if they had called the feat Brew Drought and stated that potions and oils were both droughts, than this confusion could have been easily avoided, but hey, I guess "Brew Potion" sounds cooler.
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If Sean was referring to potions AND oils, than he is wrong. Until he puts out errata, there's no room for discussion of the RAW. The rules clearly allow for potions (or rather oils) to be used on objects.
I am only arguing that per the RAW, there is no rules for creating potions or oils that effect objects, only creatures.
Can you please point me to the rules for creating oils/potions that affect objects?
If Sean was referring to potions AND oils, than he is wrong. Until he puts out errata, there's no room for discussion of the RAW. The rules clearly allow for potions (or rather oils) to be used on objects.I am only arguing that per the RAW, there is no rules for creating potions or oils that effect objects, only creatures.
Can you please point me to the rules for creating oils/potions that affect objects?
I already did. See my post above. I even bolded it. It clearly references oils being used on OBJECTS.
OBJECTS =/= CREATURES
You can't get more clear than that. It's like you guys are reading the rules with selective tunnel vision or something--you're only reading what you want to see.
EDIT: Ah, I think I see what you're getting at. You aren't denying that oils exist or that they work on objects, you're just saying that there is no way in RAW to create them.
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. It still seems pretty obvious to me that the intent was that oils are made with brew potion. After all, the rules for them are in the POTION section of the magic items rules and they are clearly a type of potion.
Though this isn't technically RAW, I hold a firm opinion that any brewer can choose whether a potion he is making ends up being a potion or oil (though seeing as objects can't imbibe anything, it's best to make object-based spells into oils rather than potions). In other words, potions work on creatures and oils work on creatures OR objects.
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I already did. See my post above. I even bolded it. It clearly references oils being used on OBJECTS.
OBJECTS =/= CREATURES
The problem is that just a few lines up in the same section of the CRB, it says that the only spells which can be made into "droughts" (as you put it - good idea, btw) are ones which target one or more creatures.
So we have rules saying that an oil can only target creatures, but is used on objects.
It's a contradiction. I clarified this further in the thread Happler linked a couple of posts up, and also presented my interpretation.
EDIT: Ninja'd by your edit.
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If Sean was referring to potions AND oils, than he is wrong. Until he puts out errata, there's no room for discussion of the RAW. The rules clearly allow for potions (or rather oils) to be used on objects.I am only arguing that per the RAW, there is no rules for creating potions or oils that effect objects, only creatures.
Can you please point me to the rules for creating oils/potions that affect objects?
I already did. See my post above. I even bolded it. It clearly references oils being used on OBJECTS.
OBJECTS =/= CREATURES
You can't get more clear than that. It's like you guys are reading the rules with selective tunnel vision or something--you're only reading what you want to see.
EDIT: Ah, I think I see what you're getting at. You aren't denying that oils exist or that they work on objects, you're just saying that there is no way in RAW to create them.
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. It still seems pretty obvious to me that the intent was that oils are made with brew potion.
Thanks. Can you FAQ my other post? I would like to get that bit of rules cleared up to clean up some of the arguments. :)
I already did. See my post above. I even bolded it. It clearly references oils being used on OBJECTS.
OBJECTS =/= CREATURES
The problem is that just a few lines up in the same section of the CRB, it says that the only spells which can be made into "droughts" (as you put it - good idea, btw) are ones which target one or more creatures.
So we have rules saying that an oil can only target creatures, but is used on objects.
It's a contradiction. I clarified this further in the thread Happler linked a couple of posts up, and also presented my interpretation.
EDIT: Ninja'd by your edit.
It's not a contradiction because it is in a completely different paragraph.
Sentences make up individual, distinct thoughts. Paragraphs group similar thoughts together. Different paragraphs talk about different things. That's how the English language works.
One paragraph is talking about potion droughts, whereas the other one is talking about oil droughts. As such, one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.
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One paragraph is talking about potion droughts, whereas the other one is talking about oil droughts. As such, one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.
A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.
Care to re-think the necessity of that little English lesson? ;)
Care to re-think the necessity of that little English lesson? ;)
No, but I will click the FAQ button so the designers know they have a little bit of language clean up in the potions isle.
The differences between 3.5e and Pathfinder is given in the Pathfinder Conversion Guide. Since I don't see anything about potions and oils in the conversion guide, my assumption is although RAW is poorly written in the Core rulebook than if 3.5e DMG is clearer than that should be considered RAI for the Core Rulebook.
I believe this to be true for just about anything that Paizo did a poor job on with the cut & paste.
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The differences between 3.5e and Pathfinder is given in the Pathfinder Conversion Guide. Since I don't see anything about potions and oils in the conversion guide, my assumption is although RAW is poorly written in the Core rulebook than if 3.5e DMG is clearer than that should be considered RAI for the Core Rulebook.
I believe this to be true for just about anything that Paizo did a poor job on with the cut & paste.
Well, I didn't play 3.5, but I've heard that its oils were exclusively for objects rather than creatures (if that's incorrect, then disregard this post).
Pathfinder rules contain this, from the fourth paragraph under "Activation" in the potions/oils rules:
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
So in Pathfinder, oils can be applied to creatures. If that was not the case in 3.5, and if there was also no difference noted in the conversion guide, then that would mean that your position of "Pathfinder = 3.5 + conversion guide" is flawed.
But again, if 3.5 allowed oils to be applied to creatures, then nevermind this post. :)
Well, I didn't play 3.5, but I've heard that its oils were exclusively for objects rather than creatures (if that's incorrect, then disregard this post)
But again, if 3.5 allowed oils to be applied to creatures, then nevermind this post. :).
Nope. There actually wasn't a rule about what was made into a potion, or what was an oil. Though if you went by the table, you could see the intention was that anything that affected an object was an oil (probably because objects have a hard time drinking something...) while anything that affected creatures was a potion. But there wasn't a rule either way about making something that was normally a potion into an oil instead.
Can anyone tell me how long the oil is supposed to last if it's purchased as an item?
A potions caster level is the minimum required to cast the spell. Flame Arrow is a 3rd level spell, so caster level 5. Flame Arrow lasts 10 minutes/level, so a potion of Flame Arrow applied to a bundle of arrows will last 50 minutes.