I'm suprised no one has mentioned cavalier insted of paladin, you still get a free horse, you give your allies free feats and buffs, challenge at level 5 is +2 to hit and +5 damage which is not tied to evil targets. You can get perception as a class skill and still take some social skills, also your not tied to LG so if you want to match your party you can run LN or even LE order of the cockratrice.
Obviusly mounted archer is epic win but if you can't use the horse in the campaign your in you could beg the dm for the houndmaster archtype, a houndmaster with a bow would most likely out lol a fight ranger paladin or even a bard.
Another option is the bow magus archtype for arcane archer in a can, works similar to the bard but more flashy spells.
I'm suprised no one has mentioned cavalier insted of paladin, you still get a free horse, you give your allies free feats and buffs, challenge at level 5 is +2 to hit and +5 damage which is not tied to evil targets. You can get perception as a class skill and still take some social skills, also your not tied to LG so if you want to match your party you can run LN or even LE order of the cockratrice.
Obviusly mounted archer is epic win but if you can't use the horse in the campaign your in you could beg the dm for the houndmaster archtype, a houndmaster with a bow would most likely out lol a fight ranger paladin or even a bard.
Another option is the bow magus archtype for arcane archer in a can, works similar to the bard but more flashy spells.
The spells are what really put the paladin in a league of it's own, they are really good, and smite evil is basically miraculous icing on the cake.
How did you manage that?well... I did 10d6 + 12 dmg per attack if the opponent was flat-footed (which they pretty much always were due to sniping).
What level was this, and how is a rogue getting +12 to damage on archery?
I'm suprised no one has mentioned cavalier insted of paladin, you still get a free horse, you give your allies free feats and buffs, challenge at level 5 is +2 to hit and +5 damage which is not tied to evil targets. You can get perception as a class skill and still take some social skills, also your not tied to LG so if you want to match your party you can run LN or even LE order of the cockratrice.The spells are what really put the paladin in a league of it's own, they are really good, and smite evil is basically miraculous icing on the cake.
Which spells put a paladin in a league of his own? I can't think i a spell i'd rather cast over getting another round of smiting/challenging. Cavalier gets his banner which is comparable to the paladin aura's, gets teamwork feats he can share with his allies which allow for initiative chaining and free suprise rounds and as well as that gets extra free combat feats over the top of the paladin letting him be a better archer sooner.
The big difference is no lay on hands, which for an archer paladin is not as highly rated as a melee paladin build since it costs you an action to use on someone else which you could be using for smiting.
I'm suprised no one has mentioned cavalier insted of paladin, you still get a free horse, you give your allies free feats and buffs, challenge at level 5 is +2 to hit and +5 damage which is not tied to evil targets. You can get perception as a class skill and still take some social skills, also your not tied to LG so if you want to match your party you can run LN or even LE order of the cockratrice.The spells are what really put the paladin in a league of it's own, they are really good, and smite evil is basically miraculous icing on the cake.Which spells put a paladin in a league of his own? I can't think i a spell i'd rather cast over getting another round of smiting/challenging. Cavalier gets his banner which is comparable to the paladin aura's, gets teamwork feats he can share with his allies which allow for initiative chaining and free suprise rounds and as well as that gets extra free combat feats over the top of the paladin letting him be a better archer sooner.
The big difference is no lay on hands, which for an archer paladin is not as highly rated as a melee paladin build since it costs you an action to use on someone else which you could be using for smiting.
It's called preparation, or permanency if you are so lucky. Divine Favor +3hit/damage, Rally Point +2 hit, Righteous Vigor +1hit/successful attack (max +4, but it also grants temporary hp), Tactical Acumen +4hit, and Weapon of Awe +2 damage, the total effect would be +13 hit +5 damage. I'm pretty sure that spanks +2 hit +5 damage.
I'm not sure where you are going with on the lay on hands thing, yeah it takes an action to heal others, but it's still a swift action to heal yourself, and smite is typically done in the first round of combat, well before lay on hands should be needed.
How did you manage that?well... I did 10d6 + 12 dmg per attack if the opponent was flat-footed (which they pretty much always were due to sniping).
Fair enough, but you can't rely on doing that until the higher levels, when you have external bonuses to stealth, because 30 feet is only -3 perception, which only means something in the first 5 levels or so.
Couldn't be bothered requoting as i'm on my mobile at work...
Your comparing stacked spells to the cavaliers challenge, at level 5 +2 to hit and +5 damage is comparable to the paladins smite evil not his spell casting. A paladin would most likely have a similar plus to hit and damage from smite depending on his charisma score.
With regards to the spells they are all useful buffs, other than rally point and righteous vigor both being moral bonuses and not stacking its a very impressive way to spend your time making big numbers. However i'm not aure weather you always know the fights about to start, never get ambushed and have a gm who thinks its mean to dispel buffs but i would never cast that many spells before a fight. Ymmv.
Back on topic i was mentioning cavalier as an alternative to paladin as the op mentioned there was an evil pc in his group, argument aside i wouldn't try to prove a cav was better than a pal as its simply not true, however if you want to play a diet paladin then cav is a good way to go. The only thing i would really miss from pal compared to cav is lay on hands, i tried to explain that while lay on hands is a strong ability it is not as high in value to a ranged attacker as it is for someone who is in melee as you don't get hit as often, it is also less than useful for healing others as it sucks up your action.
Once again paladin is a stronger character mechanically then cavalier, however for a character who wants a static bonus to damage to use with archery challenge is the next best thing to smite and has no alignment requirement.
You asked what spells put the paladin on a league of it's own, I responded.
It only takes one well-built character, with a good player, to make a group very difficult to ambush, and most random encounters aren't all that dangerous....unless your GM is rather murderous/jerkish.
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So just so we're clear, you shot saps out of your bow? :).
Anyway, on pally vs cavalier; few of the cav's abilities actually are synergistic with anything non-charge on horse related; the challenge is negligible. Meanwhile the paladin gets amazing saves and an ability that can be used 5-6 times / day @ 4th level (Oath of Vengence-style) to become the highest damage dealer in the game vs evil (this is particularly true in mid levels, where in most campaigns evil outsiders are the go-to boss types). This is on top of solid enough spells. The pally may not have te consistency of damage of fighters or the go-to early access for Improved Precise of rangers/zens, but when it comes to both staying up the longest and killing evil big guys, pally cannot be beaten.
What level was this, and how is a rogue getting +12 to damage on archery?level eight.
+12 is +1 magic bow, +2 strength (composite), +1 point-blank, +8 sap adept. but +12 isn't even half as nice as 10d6...
Fair enough, but you can't rely on doing that until the higher levels, when you have external bonuses to stealth, because 30 feet is only -3 perception, which only means something in the first 5 levels or so.you will rule hard once you get sap adept and sap master. and you can do sneak attack damage on much more than 30ft, playing the Sniper archetype. I am doing on 50ft on level 8, and I haven't even spent any rogue talents to increase it. it will be further increased by 10ft on the next level.
as for stealth, get shadow nightscale and woooh +10 Competence Bonus. then if you have the Swift as Shadows trait, you halve your stealth penalty. I have 31 base stealth on level 8...
Shouldn't you have only 8d6?
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+12 is +1 magic bow, +2 strength (composite), +1 point-blank, +8 sap adept. but +12 isn't even half as nice as 10d6...
Sap adept and Sap master only apply to bludgeoning weapons and only when you are doing non-lethal damage. That said, there ARE 'blunt tip' arrow rules out there in various supplements which would allow this to be done with bows. A bit odd, but I don't see anything in the rules preventing it.
Right, sap master lets rogues compete with the big boys. Granted, I'm not sure how he consistently gets cover at the right distances away. And I am not sure how a rogue with one attack a round is out doing everything else.
Although I think that my bardarcher was doing more damage. 5 attacks super buffed is a beautiful thing!
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First, the math should be 9d6+12 (can't vital strike and stealth same round)
(Dex 22 assumed) +6 +6 (BAB) -4 (nonlethal) -2 (deadly aim) +1 (size assumed since the arrows do d6) +1 magic +1 WF assumed +1 PBS = +10 for average 43 damage? And since you don't have improved precise, that will usually be -4. You can assume +1-3 on average for no dex (generously). That's.... really bad in comparison to any class. And I doubt you have the feats for everything I gave you credit for (could be wrong though; rogue talents give you some of this).
Is this just a theorycrafted character?
Right, sap master lets rogues compete with the big boys. Granted, I'm not sure how he consistently gets cover at the right distances away. And I am not sure how a rogue with one attack a round is out doing everything else.you just stealth? I walk towards the back, and in stealth all the time.
one 10d6+12 attack per round easily out-damages everyone as things are right now, heh.
You can't just stealth. You need concealment. It's cool if your GM houserule that away, but if he did, you can't really argue that the rogue is a good sniper, since RAW it is very hard to get ranged sneak attack.
Cover doesn't do it -- you need concealment.
Also with a -4 to hit from the arrows he's looking at a...
+6 to hit? Maybe +7~8?
Party members are walking cover; I'll give him it's not so hard to get concealment in this game; and you can go corner-to-corner in most dungeons. No a ton of fights happen on open plains with no cover anywhere.
I'm fairly certain that you need hard cover to get concealment, not soft cover.
Str doesn't add to hit. And I need to read Hellcat Stealth again. I generally don't assume golarion only feats are allowed :-P
So just so we're clear, you shot saps out of your bow? :).
Anyway, on pally vs cavalier; few of the cav's abilities actually are synergistic with anything non-charge on horse related; the challenge is negligible. Meanwhile the paladin gets amazing saves and an ability that can be used 5-6 times / day @ 4th level (Oath of Vengence-style) to become the highest damage dealer in the game vs evil (this is particularly true in mid levels, where in most campaigns evil outsiders are the go-to boss types). This is on top of solid enough spells. The pally may not have te consistency of damage of fighters or the go-to early access for Improved Precise of rangers/zens, but when it comes to both staying up the longest and killing evil big guys, pally cannot be beaten.
i agree that the pally is mechanically better than the cav, the saves alone are worthwhile, but as mentioned in the op paladin is not suitable for his group.
We can all agree that vs an evil opponent paladins do more damage than fighters due to smite evil, it then follows that the cavaliers challenge which is identical to smite evil other than having no alignment requirement and not doing double bonus on the first attack against a sub set of evil targets is equally good fo bumping your damage.
Yes smite is better vs evil stuff, yes oath of vengence can do it more often, yes a paladin has spells and better saves etc. But the op has apready stated he doesn't want to play a paladin, so one laet time, paladins are better but a cavalier could work in its place.
You had listed + 2 from strength as a part of your to-hit.
AFAIK cover is enough to stealth. the Bludgeoner feat negates the -4. but even *with* -4 I have +11 to hit. 7 from DEX, 1 from magic bow, 1 from Point-Blank and 6 from BAB.
So to be clear you have, at level 7~8 as a rogue (I'm assuming human):
Sap Master, Sap Adept, Bludgeoner, Hellcat Stealth, point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus and deadly aim?
8 feats?
H, 1, 3, 5, 7
Rogue talent for focus... rogue talent for combat trick...
Not seeing how you fit bludgeoner in there. Oh wait you were a swashbuckler?
Hm... Hellcat Stealth can't be taken before level 6, so at level 7 you got that, sap master was level 5, Deadly Aim was level 3, so point blank was level 1 as was precise shot,
7 -- Hellcat
RT -- Bludgeoner
5 -- Sap Master
RT -- Sap Adept
3 -- Deadly Aim
RT -- Weapon Focus
1 -- point blank shot
H -- precise shot
And you are making stealth checks at level 8 with a -30 penalty (-10 for hellcat stealth and -20 for sniping)?
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealth 6 ranks.Benefit: You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty.
Normal: You cannot make Stealth checks while observed.
You forgot somethign there Mr. Spalding. Check hell cat stealth's prereqs.
Also, he has swift as Shadows.
What's the average AC at creating 8?
So I did TarkXT thanks!
Yeah so a -20 while sniping (since Hellcat is still what's letting him do that the penalty still applies unless he has started using cover and concealment instead of just Hellcat Stealth).
He doesn't have precise shot so shooting anyone in melee is automatically a -4 to hit, and if anything is between him and them the total penalty is -8 to hit instead (actually a -4 to hit and +4 to AC but it amounts to the same thing in this case).
Doesn't have Bludgeoner so that's another -4 to hit.
I'm seeing:
BAB: +6 (level 8 rogue)
Dex: +7 (Dexterity of 24)
Size: +1 (halfling)
PBS: +1
WF: +1
Magic: +1
So a starting bonus of: +17
Minus:
Non-lethal: -4
Melee: -4
cover: -4 (effectively)
SO anywhere from a +13~+5 to attack with.
Now I do have a question:
How is he getting around this line?
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
What's the average AC at creating 8?
Average AC for CR 8 is 21.
Did he say CoT though? There's a lot of odd mish mash on AC in that one so he might be in a part with low AC's if that's the case.
What's the average AC at creating 8?Average AC for CR 8 is 21.
Did he say CoT though? There's a lot of odd mish mash on AC in that one so he might be in a part with low AC's if that's the case.
It would make little difference if he's shooting through soft cover as he says he is by "being in back" and likely firing into melee without precise shot.
Blunt arrows do nonlethal, I think. Hellcat Stealth should just let you make a check. Being able to use stealth when observed does not mean you don't need concealment.
Mistmail would do it.
Ammunition is a weapon.
It's not that we hate your character. I'd be thrilled if this works out. It's just that if someone says that the rogue is overpowered, they probably are missing something. Rogues are the weakest class in the game. Empirically so.
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So I was off by one, +11 (24 dex is achievable at that level fairly easily). Still, that's the -4 on non-lethal, you're still taking a -4 for cover regularly. And again, it's for 43 damage; hardly good @ 8th level.
Ranger (same level):
+7 dex +8 BAB +1 magic +1 PBS +1 WF -2 rapid -3 deadly aim = +13 / +8, ignores covet.
Deals d8 + 1 + 1 +2 +6 = d8 +10 (14.5) * 4 (3 with a higher bonus than you, one secondary shot). So about the same damage without the secondary shot @ +2 to hit, gets the extra shot, and can ocassionally get favored enemy. And it works vs undead/constructs.oozes/elementals (those which ignore nonlethal).
He has precise / improved, so ignores combat and concealment. So even if you can get a clear shot at a non-combat opponent he is outdoing you, and in most cases he blows you out ofthe water :).
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the feat does *not* mention any need for concealment or cover, unlike Hide In Plain Sight. the way I believe we treat it is that they have to roll perception to *notice* me. stealth doesn't translate to "hide behind something". there are other ways of being stealthy.Blunt arrows do nonlethal, I think. Hellcat Stealth should just let you make a check. Being able to use stealth when observed does not mean you don't need concealment.
Mistmail would do it.
Um... yeah you got this all borked up.
Stealth is always about being noticed -- if you have nothing to hide behind then you have to rely on Hellcat stealth (which by the way I don't think actually works the way you are suggesting) and even then it doesn't matter if they notice you or not -- you must stealth to snipe, and if you stealth to snipe you must follow the rules for using stealth (meaning an obscure position) you don't have one instead relying on Hellcat Stealth which means you take an additional -10 on your stealth check.
Understand the stealth check is active you must roll it with all bonuses and penalties a single time -- you don't get to roll to 'not be noticed' and then roll again if you are noticed.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category:
Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
SnipingIf you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
You still have to deal non-lethal damage for sap master to kick in, and you can't sneak attack with something you take a penalty on to deal non-lethal damage with.
Sorry man, hate to bust your build but right now it's not working.
It's not that we hate your character. I'd be thrilled if this works out. It's just that if someone says that the rogue is overpowered, they probably are missing something. Rogues are the weakest class in the game. Empirically so.
Yeah It's not a bad concept -- parts are just missing currently that must be in place.
Using Bludgeoner and sap master with blunt ammunition isn't bad at all (though you might have been better off with warslinger).
Stealth doesn't quite work the way suggested (you can't stealth while attacking unless you are sniping, if you are sniping you have to have an obscure location to do so from, and if you are using hellcat stealth to do so there's the additional -10 penalty).
It's neat enough... but even if it did all work it still would only be coming close to what a fighter or ranger can put out each round.
Hellcat Stealth just gets rid of the need to not be observed.
It doesn't get rid of any other rules for stealth. You still need concealment.
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You'll get unbanned if you tell him that your bow doesn't grant you the equivalent of improved precise and you take penalties for cover/combat. At that point he'll say you need all you can get :).
And again, vanilla ranger shooting outdamages you even when your improved precise for free scenario worked; you can show him that math. And point out how many things are immune to nonlethal.
If you're outdamaging everyone it may be a low-power campaign group though.