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Fighter; more feats means he can PBS/precise/rapid at 1, and he gets Specialization 4 / weapon training @ 5.
Circumstantial is best for a paladin with oath of vengeance; at 4 he should be able to smite 5-6 times for +5 to hit / damage.
For 4 to 5 a Drunken Zen Archer gets the nod for being able to get 1 more attack than anyone else; probably bypassing the +1/+3 of the fighter.
So Zen Archer, Vengeful Pally, or Fighter. Ranger needs 6 and improved precise early. Access to join the list (though the Zen gets that too).
Paladin,definitely.Smite+bonded mount+full attacks=death.
Depends on target and level of the paladin, but yes, using spells/class abilities, he can outclass even the fighter, and if the target is evil he will blow the fighter out of the water.
Also I hadnt thought about the paladin alas it would be quite difficult to play in the upcoming adventrue ( council of thieves,)
Well this depends entirely upon the GM.
I tend to run my games on the grey to dark side so in CoT's case I banned paladnis outright simply because the very dark nature of Westcrown would have caused more drama then would ahve been fun for the player.
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Assuming the stats are the same,
Fighters get
3 Bonus Feats
Weapon Training
Rangers get
One Bonus Feat (from Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot)
2 Favored Enemies (Thus +4 vs. one Favored Enemy)
They both get 3 feats from levels (4 if Human)
Ranged Damage Boosting feats up to 5th level include Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and Weapon Specialization.
Between Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training, the fighter gets +3 to hit for +4 damage against any creatures while the Ranger gets +4 to hit and damage against select creatures, +2 to hit and damage against other select creatures, and no bonus on others. (Add +1 to hit if the Ranger also selects Weapon Focus- the fighter did it to get weapon specialization.)
Win goes to fighter, unless your campaign only has one or two types of enemies.
Also I hadnt thought about the paladin alas it would be quite difficult to play in the upcoming adventrue ( council of thieves,)
Actually if you want to play a paladin in council of thieves, go ahead. Your enemies are baby eating bad and your allies are literally lawful good cleric of iomede good. There is pretty much nothing in the adventure (at least as written) that would cause difficulty for a paladin.
At this level of the game I would look at Inquisitor
Judgement and spells like wrath to boost damage. Some of the UC ranged attack teamwork feats and you would be a contender. At level 9 you might be awesome.
There is a Lawful evil person in the group ( really wants to be a hellknight when he becomes eligible) so evil alighnment is on the table so I think that Paladin is out for me, I think I will just use the fighter, hmm now with a 25 point buy what you buld
I know dex is the key to hit with range but with a composite longbow you get to add your STR od to DMG as such should your primary stat be DEX or STR?
Most of the archer theory crafting on the forums says you want at least a 14 str so you can get at least a +2 off the mighty composite bow. With a full BAB class you could go even higher STR and keep the dex around 12-14 is my guess.
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There is a Lawful evil person in the group ( really wants to be a hellknight when he becomes eligible) so evil alighnment is on the table so I think that Paladin is out for me, I think I will just use the fighter, hmm now with a 25 point buy what you buld
I know dex is the key to hit with range but with a composite longbow you get to add your STR od to DMG as such should your primary stat be DEX or STR?
Dex....can't do the damage if you miss....
My archer paladin went months hanging out with a Lawful evil fighter without even noticing, mostly because that character trusted her judgement over easily-fooled magic. Though I was flat shocked to find pirates that weren't evil. The fighter eventually picked up a magic item (ring of mind shielding) to keep me from knowing.
My archer paladin went months hanging out with a Lawful evil fighter without even noticing, mostly because that character trusted her judgement over easily-fooled magic. Though I was flat shocked to find pirates that weren't evil. The fighter eventually picked up a magic item (ring of mind shielding) to keep me from knowing.
In a similar vein I played a LE character in a group with some LG types including a paladin and we ended up allying against the more chaotic elements within the party as they were the ones causing us difficulties in our dealing with various folks.
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Straight fighter? How opposed to min-max are you?
Optimized Dwarf (I like saves more than +1 to hit)
Str: 13
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Chr: 5
1) PBS, Precise Shot
2) Rapid
3) WEapon Focus
4) Weapon Specialization
5) Deadly Aim
Solid perception and good saves; if you want 20 dex go human. The dwarves build is very defensible, and gives you access to a trait to give +1 Perception and make it a class skill (6+level skill). Also makes your saves start effectively at Will +4 Fort +8 Ref +4(6), along with 15 HP and 18 AC with just a chain shirt.
Human doesn't have those saves or hp but has Rapid @ 1 and an open feat @ 5. Also starts with 20 Dex, effectively +1 to hit/AC.
Bard archer :D
You can ensure Arcane Strike, Haste, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope. A fighter can't touch that :D
The title kind of says it all, which class provides the most damage, at levels 1-5 for archery.
I am thinking the fighter, or ranger ( ranger gets a bump if you know you are primarily fighting one thing and take your Prefered enemy along with that)
Throughout all the levels the fighter will do the highest consistent damage of any archer class, in any combat and without needing to buff.
The only exceptions to this are when all the stars align for a ranger favored enemy or a Paladin Smite. Very few things will out damage a Smiting archer on undead, evil outsiders, Dragons and evil clerics. However, without smite or favored enemy their damage is mediocre. Paladins will also suffer a little bit for multiple ability dependency.
Still at 5th level a fighter will have weapon training and Weapon specialization which is an additional +3 damage to all shots and every enemy. They will also have enough feats at 5th level to have Point blank, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Weapon focus, Weapon Specialization and Point blank mastery. If they are human they will also have deadly aim. (Some people may prioritize the feats differently).
An inquisitor Archer starting at 5th level can do acceptable damage with the bane ability and judgments. However, they have a slightly lower BAB. On average they will do more consistent damage than a Ranger or Paladin. Also at 5th level they can be ahead of a fighter when they have their Bane ability active. However, You are really pushing back the BAB 6 feats (Many Shot, Cluster Shot, Snap Shot) and begin falling behind the fighter as you go higher. At higher levels a Buffed inquisitor can compete, it is just that a fighter doesn’t need to buff.
Get a fighter gloves of Dueling from the APG and their damage at high levels is very difficult to surpass. If built right they are also not provoking AoOs, have combat reflexes and threaten out 15ft.
Bard archer :D
You can ensure Arcane Strike, Haste, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope. A fighter can't touch that :D
True you get nice personal and party buffs on top of the archery damage. so you bring it for the party as well as yourself.
There are actually a lot of ways to go with an archer that are still very good damage wise
Inquisitor with enflading fire and (depending on party compisition) target of opportunity( a ranged touch attack oriented caster makes this viable or even another archer). Teamwork feats to go along with judgments and cleric CODzilla style buffs.
straight fighter ranger paladin builds, depending you can make these mounted archer builds (which the sohei and cavalier are also good at)
Zen archer monk for the "I dont provoke for shooting a bow in melee at level 3+" and can flurry of blows with a bow. Also roll extra d20's to give me better chances of succeeding on my to hit and get access to fighter only feats for my chosen bow.
Bard archer :D
You can ensure Arcane Strike, Haste, Inspire Courage, and Good Hope. A fighter can't touch that :D
True you get nice personal and party buffs on top of the archery damage. so you bring it for the party as well as yourself.
There are actually a lot of ways to go with an archer that are still very good damage wise
Inquisitor with enflading fire and (depending on party compisition) target of opportunity( a ranged touch attack oriented caster makes this viable or even another archer). Teamwork feats to go along with judgments and cleric CODzilla style buffs.
straight fighter ranger paladin builds, depending you can make these mounted archer builds (which the sohei and cavalier are also good at)
Zen archer monk for the "I dont provoke for shooting a bow in melee at level 3+" and can flurry of blows with a bow. Also roll extra d20's to give me better chances of succeeding on my to hit and get access to fighter only feats for my chosen bow.
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Honestly though not to spoiler too much about CoT but I will give you one important piece of advice from a GM who is running it for two groups: prepare for lots and lots of cramped indoor combat.
I myself would go fighter with an archetype that isn't archery and pick up a few key archery feats with the bajillion I'll have. That way my bases and damage are covered. That's the one strenght of fighers that's easy to overlook; they can spread themselves out of oen form of comabt very easily.
I vote for Zen Archer (APG). He is almost equal to a fighter in terms of damage-ouput, but has a superior Touch AC (and AC), three good saves, lots of nice goodies, can use his bow to make attacks of oppurtunity and so on. He even gets weapon specialization. Lot's of options. Imho the best monk archetype DPR-wise.
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Honestly though not to spoiler too much about CoT but I will give you one important piece of advice from a GM who is running it for two groups: prepare for lots and lots of cramped indoor combat.
I myself would go fighter with an archetype that isn't archery and pick up a few key archery feats with the bajillion I'll have. That way my bases and damage are covered. That's the one strenght of fighers that's easy to overlook; they can spread themselves out of oen form of comabt very easily.
I kind of love that evangelist can do that but I am a please put your chocolate in my peanut butter and then give me some kind of guy.
If the cramped quarters thing is true (havent played the AP)and the OP is hell-bent on an archer the the Zen archer may be way to go.
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Pssh. Good Hope / Blessing of Fervor are 4th level spells for them. That pushes back the ability to quickly buff up much further than a bard.
Plus, an arcane duelist can do all of that...in heavy armor. Without spending feats. Where's your god now?!
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I vote for Zen Archer (APG). He is almost equal to a fighter in terms of damage ouput, but has a superior Touch AC (and AC), three good saves, lots of nice goodies, can use his bow to make attacks of Oppurtunity and so on. He even gets weapon specialization. Lot's of options. Imho the best monk archetype dpr-wise.
I checked out a zen archer for PFS, at 12th lvl, the zen archer would have one more feat than the fighter, and be able to do his unarmed damage with his bow a number of times per day. Add on being able to roll twice, and a bunch of other cool stuff, its quite the good little archer.
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Pssh. Good Hope / Blessing of Fervor are 4th level spells for them. That pushes back the ability to quickly buff up much further than a bard.
Plus, an arcane duelist can do all of that...in heavy armor. Without spending feats. Where's your god now?!
My god's laughing actually. Because when the bard gets haste and good hope? That's when clerics get good hope and blessing of fervor.
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Screw all of the archery for self.
At 8, have sacred summons, drop d3 lantern archons into play, then give them the +2/+2 for bardsong and +2 to hit from heroism, along with your party, all in the same round; then have them attack same round.
Try that one bardy :).
(When we talk 6-10 Rangers and Zen archers win hands down; nothing beats Improves Precise access for upping archery damage, and only these 2 get it before 11. Clerics/Bards wait till 16!
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Pssh. Good Hope / Blessing of Fervor are 4th level spells for them. That pushes back the ability to quickly buff up much further than a bard.
Plus, an arcane duelist can do all of that...in heavy armor. Without spending feats. Where's your god now?!
My god's laughing actually. Because when the bard gets haste and good hope? That's when clerics get good hope and blessing of fervor.
gentlemen, gentlemen can't we have both of you along one casts one the other the other and my zen archer monk begins mowing down the enemy you may join in next round as we blacken the sky.
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Pssh. Good Hope / Blessing of Fervor are 4th level spells for them. That pushes back the ability to quickly buff up much further than a bard.
Plus, an arcane duelist can do all of that...in heavy armor. Without spending feats. Where's your god now?!
My god's laughing actually. Because when the bard gets haste and good hope? That's when clerics get good hope and blessing of fervor.
Then my bard is laughing at you needing to cast those spells over the course of two rounds, since a rod of quicken is so expensive, while the lesser version is not so much!
'sides, not everyone uses those optional rules or plays in Golarion :p
Funny thing is you can do everything the bard archer does with...wait for it...an evangelist cleric of Iomedae. :)
Except you trade out arcane strike for full spellcasting. XD
Pssh. Good Hope / Blessing of Fervor are 4th level spells for them. That pushes back the ability to quickly buff up much further than a bard.
Plus, an arcane duelist can do all of that...in heavy armor. Without spending feats. Where's your god now?!
My god's laughing actually. Because when the bard gets haste and good hope? That's when clerics get good hope and blessing of fervor.
Then my bard is laughing at you needing to cast those spells over the course of two rounds, since a rod of quicken is so expensive, while the lesser version is not so much!
'sides, not everyone uses those optional rules or plays in Golarion :p
Oh but there's so much more i can do with that rod.
But anyway this will get off topic very quickly if this continues.
I thought that was the point of the Advice forums.
So, OP. There are two good options for 3/4ths BAB classes to do great at archery. Three with the monk.
But really, fighter will be the simplest. Paladin will situationally be stronger, but the fighter will be solid.
Plus, the archer fighter gets that cool CM-at-range ability.
Sorry for being OT: How again does the evangelist get "Good Hope"?
Sorry for being OT: How again does the evangelist get "Good Hope"?
By being a cleric of Iomedae. Gods and Magic states that they can cast Good Hope as a 4th level spell.
In our campaign, we have two dedicated archers; one a ranger and the other a rogue. The rogue has always outpaced the ranger damage-wise thanks to her sneak attack and feats. In fact, the rogue is the party's top damage dealer; ahead of even the melee focused monk and paladin characters.
I thought that was the point of the Advice forums.
So, OP. There are two good options for 3/4ths BAB classes to do great at archery. Three with the monk.
But really, fighter will be the simplest. Paladin will situationally be stronger, but the fighter will be solid.
Plus, the archer fighter gets that cool CM-at-range ability.
I've been wanting to play a Magus archer with this archetype . You lose some spell casting but it seems like it would make a great base for an arcane archer eventually and it should be able to do some decent damage at early levels as is.
In our campaign, we have two dedicated archers; one a ranger and the other a rogue. The rogue has always outpaced the ranger damage-wise thanks to her sneak attack and feats. In fact, the rogue is the party's top damage dealer; ahead of even the melee focused monk and paladin characters.
?
Did the person who built the Rogue optimize for damage better than the others? That's quite unusual for an archery Rogue to do that well. Ranged sneak attack isn't easy.
Plus, the archer fighter gets that cool CM-at-range ability.
Don't forget to take Agile Maneuvers for that if your Dex is higher than your Str.
Barbarian[Hurler], because he can throw the invisible ninja.
Oh yeah, gotta love the Fastball Special.
In our campaign, we have two dedicated archers; one a ranger and the other a rogue. The rogue has always outpaced the ranger damage-wise thanks to her sneak attack and feats. In fact, the rogue is the party's top damage dealer; ahead of even the melee focused monk and paladin characters.?
Did the person who built the Rogue optimize for damage better than the others? That's quite unusual for an archery Rogue to do that well. Ranged sneak attack isn't easy.
I gotta second this. How did he do that? RAW the only easy way for a rogue to reliably get sneak attack is with Greater Invisibility.
Otherwise, he should not be out-doing an archery specced ranger.
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Sorry for being OT: How again does the evangelist get "Good Hope"?By being a cleric of Iomedae. Gods and Magic states that they can cast Good Hope as a 4th level spell.
I think the better question is: How does an Evangelist of Iomedae use a bow without picking a suboptimal race or burning a feat? :P
For all the damage they'll be doing, they can stand to not be "an optimal race".
Admitted, this would be situational, but I second the nomination for an inquisitor. With their buffs they can churn out a great deal of ranged damage. For instance, I built an npc inquisitor (level 7) as one of a party of 6 npc's my PC group went up against last session. The inquisitor tore the PC's a new one (until they got up to her that is).
She had a 14 STR for her +1 composite longbow (+2). She had an 18 DEX bumped to 22 thanks to a potion of cat's grace. Her own buffs included divine favor, flamesw of the faithful, keen edge, weapon of awe, and wrath.
For feats she had deadly aim, point blank shot, rapid shot, and weapon focus: bow. In combat she would take full actions from horseback using rapid shot and bane and judgment (+2 to attack) for +18/+18 (1d8+15+2d6 bane+1d6 fire). A PC version would have to be more frugal with their buffs, but in a nova situation (such as with my npc) she ruled the field damage-wise.
Admitted, this would be situational, but I second the nomination for an inquisitor. With their buffs they can churn out a great deal of ranged damage. For instance, I built an npc inquisitor (level 7) as one of a party of 6 npc's my PC group went up against last session. The inquisitor tore the PC's a new one (until they got up to her that is).
She had a 14 STR for her +1 composite longbow (+2). She had an 18 DEX bumped to 22 thanks to a potion of cat's grace. Her own buffs included divine favor, flamesw of the faithful, keen edge, weapon of awe, and wrath.
For feats she had deadly aim, point blank shot, rapid shot, and weapon focus: bow. In combat she would take full actions from horseback using rapid shot and bane and judgment (+2 to attack) for +18/+18 (1d8+15+2d6 bane+1d6 fire). A PC version would have to be more frugal with their buffs, but in a nova situation (such as with my npc) she ruled the field damage-wise.
Lol, Dos was fun.
Anyway, I like that build, but I'd go for Judgment Surge over Weapon Focus for a 7th level Inquisitor. That lets you treat your Judgment as if you're 3 levels higher. If you use Judgments to increase attack rolls, as likely is best, it gives you the ability to confirm crits easier. Fits better with Keen Edge. It also gives more versatility overall than Weapon Focus. Sure WF always works, but Judgment Surge can give bonuses in other areas. Especially starting at 8th level when you get your second Judgment.
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For reference:
Without Judgment Surge:
+2 sacred bonus to attack.
+3 sacred bonus to damage.
+2 sacred bonus to AC.
+2 sacred bonus to saves.
+3 Fast Healing.
+6 energy resistance to one type of energy.
+3 sacred bonus to concentration checks and overcoming SR.
+2 DR/Magic.
Weapon counts as magic and one of your alignments for overcoming DR.
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With Judgment Surge:
+3 sacred bonus to attack (+6 for confirming crits).
+4 sacred bonus to damage.
+3 sacred bonus to AC (+6 against crits).
+3 sacred bonus to saves (+6 against curses, diseases, and poisons).
+4 Fast Healing.
+8 energy resistance to one type of energy.
+4 sacred bonus to concentration checks and overcoming SR.
+3 DR/Magic (and an alignment opposite to yours).
Weapon counts as magic, one of your alignments, and Adamantine for overcoming DR.
Not needed. When you use a weapon to deliver a combat maneuver, you use the weapon's attack bonus (your normal CMB is used when this is not applicable). If you are, for example, using your bow to perform a ranged trip or ranged disarm, you'd use your attack bonus from the bow, not your standard CMB. (Granted, you take -4 penalty to do it, as the class feature states).Plus, the archer fighter gets that cool CM-at-range ability.Don't forget to take Agile Maneuvers for that if your Dex is higher than your Str.
Good point. Touche. (Or "touchy" as I like to pronounce it.)
*obviously* rogue. I was deemed overpowered and got nerfed playing a rogue archer. I severely out-damaged absolutely everyone to the point of it being completely ridiculous.
How did you manage that?