What are some strategies for this?
I'm keeping it general, since the details really don't matter. Are there ways to put the summoner asleep, thus ending the synthesist's fused eidolon?
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Any spell that renders a synthesist unconscious will dismiss the eidolon. You also have the ability to cast dismissal at 7'th level, one failed will save and the eidolon goes away.
Beyond that, there answer would very much depend on the build. My favorite aspect of the synthesist is the versatility the archetype offers. If I'm not building for raw damage I can become just about anything except a pure caster.
The same way you would take out anyone? Summon monsters, use offensive spells, beat him to death with a stick. Are there particular synthesist abilities that are making trouble for you?
Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected.
Dismissal is a level 4 cleric spell, and thus available to a level 7 cleric.
I was hoping for lower level spells, or maybe alchemical items.
Only 2 castings of 4th level spells at level 7, and then I'd have to prepare them both as Dismissal.
This is to subdue a party member in case he goes crazy.
I was hoping for lower level spells, or maybe alchemical items.
Only 2 castings of 4th level spells at level 7, and then I'd have to prepare them both as Dismissal.
This is to subdue a party member in case he goes crazy.
Hold Person + Coup de Grace?
I was hoping for lower level spells, or maybe alchemical items.
Only 2 castings of 4th level spells at level 7, and then I'd have to prepare them both as Dismissal.
This is to subdue a party member in case he goes crazy.
Keep a scroll of it handy.
Looking at Banishment, you could have a scroll of it that is caster level 11. That requires a 4 or better on a caster level check to succeed in casting it at level 7.
You can improve the spell's chance of success by presenting at least one object or substance that the target hates, fears, or otherwise opposes. For each such object or substance, you gain a +1 bonus on your caster level check to overcome the target's Spell Resistance (if any), and the saving throw DC increases by 2.
Since you know the creature you are trying to banish, you could have multiple objects that they hate on hand. Having 3 hated objects would put the banishment save DC at 25 = 10 + 6(spell level) +3(minimum stat required) + 6(3 hated objects).
You could basically get to where the Eidolon needs a natural 20 to succeed.
I was hoping for lower level spells, or maybe alchemical items.
Only 2 castings of 4th level spells at level 7, and then I'd have to prepare them both as Dismissal.
This is to subdue a party member in case he goes crazy.
Keep a scroll of it handy.
Looking at Banishment, you could have a scroll of it that is caster level 11. That requires a 4 or better on a caster level check to succeed in casting it at level 7.
** spoiler omitted **
Since you know the creature you are trying to banish, you could have multiple objects that they hate on hand. Having 3 hated objects would put the banishment save DC at 25 = 10 + 6(spell level) +3(minimum stat required) + 6(3 hated objects).You could basically get to where the Eidolon needs a natural 20 to succeed.
The problem with Dismissal and Banishment is that the Summoner could call his Eidolon back with Summon Eidolon, so you're spending a 4th-level spell to MAYBE do something that will be undone by a 2nd-level spell.
So you need a failsafe in case the Synthesist's player is being a jerk? Here's one:
Alternatively, have the GM throw a high level NPC to go nova on him. That should do it.
This is, what I think, a CE or NE summoner. I'm a CG cleric. If it makes any sense, I am on the LE end of CG. Freedom is paramount. Any issue would be the character, not the eidolon. I do not know the exact build, but it has pounce, fly, and a tentacle. He has endangered my character already. This is a campaign where player vs player is on the table.
I like the spellstoring idea. I will investigate it.
This is, what I think, a CE or NE summoner. I'm a CG cleric. If it makes any sense, I am on the LE end of CG. Freedom is paramount. Any issue would be the character, not the eidolon. I do not know the exact build, but it has pounce, fly, and a tentacle. He has endangered my character already. This is a campaign where player vs player is on the table.
I like the spellstoring idea. I will investigate it.
OK so your best option is to become the favored pal of all the other party members so that if a fight happens between you and the summoner, all other party members will be on your side. Craft magic items just for them and use your various buffs on them instead of yourself. They'll soon realise how indispensable you are for the party.
You may want to instead consider a weapon that casts the spell on its own, or something along those lines, then. Chances are good the summoner won't be willing to help you prepare to take him out.
Yea, I didn't mean ask him for help. Just looking at the possibilities with spell-storing.
OK so your best option is to become the favored pal of all the other party members so that if a fight happens between you and the summoner, all other party members will be on your side. Craft magic items just for them and use your various buffs on them instead of yourself. They'll soon realise how indispensable you are for the party.This is, what I think, a CE or NE summoner. I'm a CG cleric. If it makes any sense, I am on the LE end of CG. Freedom is paramount. Any issue would be the character, not the eidolon. I do not know the exact build, but it has pounce, fly, and a tentacle. He has endangered my character already. This is a campaign where player vs player is on the table.
I like the spellstoring idea. I will investigate it.
While good advice, it is not a safe option.
While good advice, it is not a safe option.
In that case, I think that the only ''safe'' option would be to crack the summoner's skull open with your morningstar while he's sleeping, even though it might not sit well with the other party members. The spell Silence centered on yourself could help you with the part where you have to sneak into the summoner's tent/room while he's sleeping. :)
A synthesist would never allow that when sleeping.
A synthesist would never allow that when sleeping.
To be fair, a good Synthesist wouldn't. An ok one on the other hand...
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With a stick. While he slept. But with an eidilion? That man is unbeatable.
;-)
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This is, what I think, a CE or NE summoner. I'm a CG cleric. If it makes any sense, I am on the LE end of CG. Freedom is paramount. Any issue would be the character, not the eidolon. I do not know the exact build, but it has pounce, fly, and a tentacle. He has endangered my character already. This is a campaign where player vs player is on the table.
I like the spellstoring idea. I will investigate it.
Terrible remorse, from the APG, takes out a person, even if they make the save.
Control summoned creature (APG) may or may not work on an Eidolon. Check your GM to be sure.
At lower levels, arrow of law / spear of purity are decent attacks, as would be hold person or even a judicious use of command (flee) or cause fear or forbid action (APG) or blindness/deafness (to blind, as deafness is junk).
If the party has guard shifts overnight, toss a bestow curse on him while he sleeps. Make your own curse, like a reversed shield other effect or something. "If you attack me, you take half of the damage you would inflict against me and I get a +1 deflection bonus to AC and +1 resistance bonus to saves against you attacks."
Other curse options could be a stronger version of one of the standard curses, but only affecting them when they attack you. So, instead of 50% lose all actions, or -4 to all attacks, saves and checks, you could curse them to have a 75% chance to take no action in any round in which they attempt to attack you, or a -8 to attacks, saves and skill/ability checks during rounds in which they attack you.
Or the old standby 'If you touch it, you'll go blind.' (With 'it' meaning, 'me.')
Summoners can't remove curse or break enchantment on their own (but may be able to summon something that can), and the effect isn't obvious until it goes off (which means that he shouldn't know, except by meta-gaming, if you mention doing this in front of the player, that the character is cursed until he attacks your PC).
You can also stack multiple curses on the dude, so that, even if he manages to rid himself of one, there are more waiting to go off if he attacks you.
I'd recommend the bestow curse, handled between you and the GM, so that the player doesn't know about it, and keeping other spells and options prepared only if they are *also* good to have prepped on a regular basis anyway (such as command, cause fear, hold person and terrible remorse).
Summoner specific stuff like summoner's conduit and control summoned creature is probably wasting too much of your personal resources on stuff that doesn't necessarily benefit the overall objective.
Terrible remorse, from the APG, takes out a person, even if they make the save.Control summoned creature (APG) may or may not work on an Eidolon. Check your GM to be sure.
At lower levels, arrow of law / spear of purity are decent attacks, as would be hold person or even a judicious use of command (flee) or cause fear or forbid action (APG) or blindness/deafness (to blind, as deafness is junk).
If the party has guard shifts overnight, toss a bestow curse on him while he sleeps. Make your own curse, like a reversed shield other effect or something. "If you attack me, you take half of the damage you would inflict against me and I get a +1 deflection bonus to AC and +1 resistance bonus to saves against you attacks."
Other curse options could be a stronger version of one of the standard curses, but only affecting them when they attack you. So, instead of 50% lose all actions, or -4 to all attacks, saves and checks, you could curse them to have a 75% chance to take no action in any round in which they attempt to attack you, or a -8 to attacks, saves and skill/ability checks during rounds in which they attack you.
Or the old standby 'If you touch it, you'll go blind.' (With 'it' meaning, 'me.')
Summoners can't remove curse or break enchantment on their own (but may be able to summon something that can), and the effect isn't obvious until it goes off (which means that he shouldn't know, except by meta-gaming, if you mention doing this in front of the player, that the character is cursed until he attacks your PC).
You can also stack multiple curses on the dude, so that, even if he manages to rid himself of one, there are more waiting to go off if he attacks you.
I'd recommend the bestow curse, handled between you and the GM, so that the player doesn't know about it, and keeping other spells and options prepared only if they are *also* good to have prepped on a regular basis anyway (such as command, cause fear, hold person and terrible remorse).
Summoner specific stuff like summoner's conduit and control summoned creature is probably wasting too much of your personal resources on stuff that doesn't necessarily benefit the overall objective.
+1
Would need a lesser rod of silent spell for Bestow Curse...hmm. Might be worth it anyways. It is for a somewhat subversive character.
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Would need a lesser rod of silent spell for Bestow Curse... hmm. Might be worth it anyways. It is for a somewhat subversive character.
It's a great way to deal with captured bad-guys or their henchmen that you don't want to kill or march off to face justice.
"Whenever you try to do something evil, save or be nauseated by pain. Even if you save, still be sickened by pain, and remain sickened until you make amends for the evil act. Further evil acts increase the level of pain and the penalties thereof."
Bestow curse makes Clockwork Orange-style conditioning cake.
Note that sleeping imposes a pretty hefty penalty on Perception checks, so you might not *need* the Silent Spell thing, if you can cast quietly. Or, yanno, being a Cleric, you could just cast silence on the campsite, and cast bestow curse outside of the field of silence, before stepping in and 'delivering the touch spell.' :)
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A smart synthesist takes the feat that keeps the eidolon when he is unconscious right away. That way he can sleep with it on; otherwise he's vulnerable during sleep too. If he failed to take this vital feat he can't sleep in his eidolon and you can get him camping.
It's tough, if he's smart he puts all of his money to save items; and has +3 to all (thanks to an ioun stone and the +2 from being fused) on top of good will (primary save) and good others (stats from eidilolon).
Saves en masse are the way to do it, especially if you are high wis (high DCs). Beyond that it is rough; if he goes beserk he probably opens up with tentacles on the casters.
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A smart synthesist takes the feat that keeps the eidolon when he is unconscious right away. That way he can sleep with it on; otherwise he's vulnerable during sleep too. If he failed to take this vital feat he can't sleep in his eidolon and you can get him camping.
A synthesist does not have the eidolon class feature, he has the fused eidolon class feature.
He's unable to take any of the summoner specific feats.
A smart synthesist takes the feat that keeps the eidolon when he is unconscious right away. That way he can sleep with it on; otherwise he's vulnerable during sleep too. If he failed to take this vital feat he can't sleep in his eidolon and you can get him camping.
It's tough, if he's smart he puts all of his money to save items; and has +3 to all (thanks to an ioun stone and the +2 from being fused) on top of good will (primary save) and good others (stats from eidilolon).
Saves en masse are the way to do it, especially if you are high wis (high DCs). Beyond that it is rough; if he goes beserk he probably opens up with tentacles on the casters.
Benefit: If you are knocked unconscious, fall asleep, or are killed, your eidolon remains for a number of rounds equal to your summoner level before it is banished.
Doesn't last too long.
I'll just have a contingency plan for Dismissal, and wait til later when I'll have things that will surely stop him.
I third the Bestow Curse suggestion. It has great flavor and is your best bet for getting what you want without player drama, IMO.
I expect an update when you play next!
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The problem with Dismissal and Banishment is that the Summoner could call his Eidolon back with Summon Eidolon, so you're spending a 4th-level spell to MAYBE do something that will be undone by a 2nd-level spell.
An eidolon brought back with Summon Eidolon is subject to protection from evil, i.e. beaten by a level 1 spell.
Take him out in the middle of his transformation sequence. his transformation takes time, and you are not bound by the rules of the magical girl genre. his transformation leaves him a sitting duck. the act of going Tokyo Mew Mew, Sailor Moon, or whatever his character is leaves him a sitting duck.
I third the Bestow Curse suggestion. It has great flavor and is your best bet for getting what you want without player drama, IMO.
I expect an update when you play next!
Any plans here won't take place until quite a few months from now :)
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Since you know the creature you are trying to banish, you could have multiple objects that they hate on hand. Having 3 hated objects would put the banishment save DC at 25 = 10 + 6(spell level) +3(minimum stat required) + 6(3 hated objects).You could basically get to where the Eidolon needs a natural 20 to succeed.
I doubt you would be able to force a natural 20 on a synthesist's strongest save, not if he has a decent wisdom, resistance item, and shielded meld. Assuming a 14 wisdom, he's going to have a baseline will save of +9 at 7'th level. A total save of +12 is not unreasonable.
The odds would certainly be in your favor if fully prepared with banishment, but it's far from a sure thing.
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Well, if he is active he can render you to shreds with Black Tentacles / full attack. Sleeping he is easy to take, but that's rough.
Off-hand I'd say you're kinda screwed unless he does something that makes you justify killing him in his sleep. If he gets a jump on the party he has a solid chance of TPK (synths really are just overpowered).
Glad to know that they can't get those feat lines; you are correct. At least they can't access extra evolution like I thought they could.
Once he's out of his Eidolon, he'll be defenseless. Hence why I want to focus on that part.
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If you're going to make him save-or-die, go for hold person style; there is a misconception that summoners go helpless without the eidolon. He can go invisible/into hiding and either summon his eidolon back via spell or start dropping out summon monster 4s till the party is dead. Better to make him actually helpless if he fails his save; dismissal is only good if it is followed by a few full attacks.
Though a lot of this depends on the intelligence of the player, and who will support you and him in a PVP throwdown. Threads like this make me glad no game I'm ever in allows PVP.
This is, what I think, a CE or NE summoner. I'm a CG cleric. If it makes any sense, I am on the LE end of CG.It doesn't.
He sees the evil members in the party as tools to use to further his own, ultimately good, goals.
If you're going to make him save-or-die, go for hold person style; there is a misconception that summoners go helpless without the eidolon. He can go invisible/into hiding and either summon his eidolon back via spell or start dropping out summon monster 4s till the party is dead. Better to make him actually helpless if he fails his save; dismissal is only good if it is followed by a few full attacks.
Though a lot of this depends on the intelligence of the player, and who will support you and him in a PVP throwdown. Threads like this make me glad no game I'm ever in allows PVP.
A level 3 expert almost killed him a few sessions ago, when we were still level 6. The situations of the campaign are such that without the Eidolon, he won't be doing too well.
I am being intentionally vague for various reasons, by the way.
Since you know the creature you are trying to banish, you could have multiple objects that they hate on hand. Having 3 hated objects would put the banishment save DC at 25 = 10 + 6(spell level) +3(minimum stat required) + 6(3 hated objects).You could basically get to where the Eidolon needs a natural 20 to succeed.
I doubt you would be able to force a natural 20 on a synthesist's strongest save, not if he has a decent wisdom, resistance item, and shielded meld. Assuming a 14 wisdom, he's going to have a baseline will save of +9 at 7'th level. A total save of +12 is not unreasonable.
The odds would certainly be in your favor if fully prepared with banishment, but it's far from a sure thing.
You get +2 to the save DC per item that the creature hates, and there is no limit, so forcing a natural 20 on the save is just a matter of collecting enough items.