Shoot me if I ever do that.In the back of the head. At the theater.
Too soon.
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I don't think:
That mechanically horrible feats and abilities are fine because they can contribute to roleplaying.
That fighters are the best at fighting.
That 4E is a bad system or "not D&D".
That clerics aren't the most bland and dull class mechanically.
That the full-attack isn't the biggest flaw in the system and needs to be reworked or removed in favor of more dynamic actions.
That the amount of damage players can deal is fine. I think it's way too high.
What's Grimtooth?
A series of books containing PC murdering traps. I think you can still find them on Amazon.
What's Grimtooth?
Check out the preview.
What's Grimtooth?
Grimtooth is a Troll, a purveyor of traps. His catalogs were/are published by Flying Buffalo. The covers can be seen here.
Necromancer games, as noted above, is republishing the wurst ones.
To me, the issue with them was that everyone had 12 or so. They encouraged dipping too much, IMO. Archetypes mostly avoid that issue.I think they actually encourage them.
I can dip two levels into Monk of the Sacred Mountain and give my full-plated Fighter unarmed strike, Toughness, and a +1 natural armor bonus with no problems. I'm sure I could find another archetype to swap out flurry and thus only lose Wis to AC when wearing armor.
Archetypes are balanced against single-class characters, but some make very attractive dip classes due to front loading.
Some people might see that as a problem.
Full plated fighter doesn't need Improved Unarmed Strike, except to qualify for feats, the armor has built in Gauntlets, which are a lethal weapon to punch people with.
Toughness could be taken with the feat you're giving up with those two levels of monk.
So you're reducing your armor mastery for +1 natural armor...not to mention losing the capstone.
Not a good choice in the long run I think.
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Unpleasant Meme: The only thing that matters is what the character will look like at 20th level.
To me, the issue with them was that everyone had 12 or so. They encouraged dipping too much, IMO. Archetypes mostly avoid that issue.I think they actually encourage them.
I can dip two levels into Monk of the Sacred Mountain and give my full-plated Fighter unarmed strike, Toughness, and a +1 natural armor bonus with no problems. I'm sure I could find another archetype to swap out flurry and thus only lose Wis to AC when wearing armor.
Archetypes are balanced against single-class characters, but some make very attractive dip classes due to front loading.
Some people might see that as a problem.
Full plated fighter doesn't need Improved Unarmed Strike, except to qualify for feats, the armor has built in Gauntlets, which are a lethal weapon to punch people with.
Toughness could be taken with the feat you're giving up with those two levels of monk.
So you're reducing your armor mastery for +1 natural armor...not to mention losing the capstone.
Not a good choice in the long run I think.
You forgot the +3 to all saving throws, which aids a fighter a great deal. And of course the ability to add his WIS bonus to AC when unarmored (probably only 1 or 2, but hey, it is something when unarmored). Not to mention the ability to flurry of blows on the off chance that he is caught without a weapon (or armor).
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Full plated fighter doesn't need Improved Unarmed Strike, except to qualify for feats, the armor has built in Gauntlets, which are a lethal weapon to punch people with.
Toughness could be taken with the feat you're giving up with those two levels of monk.
So you're reducing your armor mastery for +1 natural armor...not to mention losing the capstone.
Not a good choice in the long run I think.
You can't kick a man in the face while wearing full plate without that level of monk.
With monk you get Toughness/Improved Unarmed Strike for free on top of two bonus feats to replace the fighter bonus feats you lose.
Well, it all depends on if you're going to 20, now doesn't it?
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- That it is a given that the PC's will be able to buy magic items like a trip to the mall.
That's not "a given," that's the RAW.
Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.
The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all. GMs running these sorts of campaigns should make some adjustments to the challenges faced by the characters due to their lack of magic gear.
Campaigns with an abundance of magic items might have communities with twice the listed base value and random items available. Alternatively, all communities might count as one size category larger for the purposes of what items are available. In a campaign with very common magic, all magic items might be available for purchase in a metropolis.
Nonmagical items and gear are generally available in a community of any size unless the item is particularly expensive, such as full plate, or made of an unusual material, such as an adamantine longsword. These items should follow the base value guidelines to determine their availability, subject to GM discretion.
You can't kick a man in the face while wearing full plate without that level of monk.
-Well, you can if you put spikes on the armor.
-Mind you, there are enough cool feats in the UC that take imp. unarmed combat as a prerequisite to make it worth it sometimes.
What's Grimtooth?Check out the preview.
OMG! Those are amazingly awesome! Will be using to add more panache to traps in our games.
That's not "a given," that's the RAW.
Magic items are valuable......
Hey there RD. I enjoy reading your posts. Anyway to address your point.
Frist - did you really have to post all of that text? :-)
Second- you saw that I said “like a trip to the mall” right? I will expand on what I meant by that by using some of the words from your wall of text.
“Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town”.
“Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion.”
“Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all.”
So to clarify - I mean that a player should not assume they will be able to fill the weak spots in their build by simply buying a wand of this or a rod of that. I also mean that the decision to allow the purchase of magic at all is at the GM’s discretion.
In my campaign, you CAN buy magic items – but it is not easy. It is a lot like buying black market weapons or drugs – you had better be careful where and with whom you do it. But that is OK, because I happen to like it when my PC’s have magic items. I just want them to find more of them than they purchase at magic-o-mart.
"The game must be balanced. I know what balance is, and I know that better than you, you, your dog and the designers. Why? Duuuuh, because I'm SMART".
Equally as bad:
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That the "Stormwind Fallacy" is an actual logical fallacy.
Don't take my name in vain!
Hey there RD. I enjoy reading your posts. Anyway to address your point.
Frist - did you really have to post all of that text? :-)
I'll see if I can spoiler it. EDIT: Missed my opening. :(
Second- you saw that I said “like a trip to the mall” right?
Yes.
I will expand on what I meant by that by using some of the words from your wall of text.
“Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town”.
“Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion.”
“Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all.”So to clarify - I mean that a player should not assume they will be able to fill the weak spots in their build by simply buying a wand of this or a rod of that. I also mean that the decision to allow the purchase of magic at all is at the GM’s discretion.
Sure, the GM can change things around. The rules specifically allow for that (and even offers advice on the matter). However, it seems clear to me that the norm is that you should be able to go to a city and expect to buy a magic item without too much difficulty.
In my campaign, you CAN buy magic items – but it is not easy. It is a lot like buying black market weapons or drugs – you had better be careful where and with whom you do it. But that is OK, because I happen to like it when my PC’s have magic items. I just want them to find more of them than they purchase at magic-o-mart.
Sounds like fun.
Sure, the GM can change things around. The rules specifically allow for that (and even offers advice on the matter). However, it seems clear to me that the norm is that you should be able to go to a city and expect to buy a magic item without too much difficulty.
I agree with you that it should be possible. Perhaps not the "without too much difficulty" part.
I have one player (or had) who literally builds his character with the idea that he will buy (or craft) specific magic items - usually +6 ability score items.
I thought there was supposed to be a random element to the magic your character aquires. I think he plays like it's a video game.
Sometimes I will see it on the boards too. "Don't take that ability, just buy a wand." That seems so, so wrong. Sure you can hope to find a wand that you want, but to just assume that you will buy one?
When did that become OK?
The endless subjective vs objective alignment debates that pop up in every "Is XXX evil?" thread.
-There is nothing that specifically says my inane rules lawyering shenanigans rife with fallacies and equivocations Isn't legal, therefore it is just as valid as a common sense reading of the raw.
-The above proves that the system is broken!
Sure, the GM can change things around. The rules specifically allow for that (and even offers advice on the matter). However, it seems clear to me that the norm is that you should be able to go to a city and expect to buy a magic item without too much difficulty.I agree with you that it should be possible. Perhaps not the "without too much difficulty" part.
I have one player (or had) who literally builds his character with the idea that he will buy (or craft) specific magic items - usually +6 ability score items.
I thought there was supposed to be a random element to the magic your character aquires. I think he plays like it's a video game.
Sometimes I will see it on the boards too. "Don't take that ability, just buy a wand." That seems so, so wrong. Sure you can hope to find a wand that you want, but to just assume that you will buy one?
When did that become OK?
I'll let you in on a little secret: It's your problem, not your player's.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with assuming that buying a wand will be "okay"--especially if the book says that it is okay and the GM said nothing to contradict the book at the start of the campaign.
RD- The world is the DM's giant NPC. Its explicitly under his control without house ruling, even in the section you yourself quoted.
RD- The world is the DM's giant NPC. Its explicitly under his control without house ruling, even in the section you yourself quoted.
Yes, but there is an assumed "norm" within the rules (itself stated in that section). It stays the norm until the GM says otherwise (preferably at the start of the campaign, or at least prior to entering a given city).
An NPC is under the purview of the GM, just as a city would be, but it is the accepted norm that a fighter cannot cast spells. Being an NPC, the GM could have a fighter* that casts spells, but then he should make his players aware that fighters in his campaigns can cast spells well in advance of encountering such a thing.
* I am well aware that a "fighter" could cast spells via multiclassing, or by being a magus, etc. Here, I am referring to the fighter class specifically.
I have one player (or had) who literally builds his character with the idea that he will buy (or craft) specific magic items - usually +6 ability score items.
Well, if he has the relevant crafting feat and can just make what he wants I'm not sure what you can reasonably say about it.
I think it's fine to restrict item purchase if you want as the GM, as long as:
1) You make your approach clear to the players before character creation so they can plan accordingly, and
2) You understand that some classes/builds are impacted more than others and that you're essentially monkeying with the balance of the game. Which is okay -- there's lots of decisions you can make that monkey with the balance of the game -- but I feel like this more than others a lot of GMs make without realizing that they're doing just that.
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Adding to the list of dislikes: GMs who make a lot of rulings for reasons other than "it will make things more fun for all."
"Fun" is at the core of the game, and should be the heart of every ruling.
I think the idea of the "magic shop" has always bothered me for one reason. To make it realistic, I would really have to spec out the entire shop and all of it's defenses. Just so I can be prepared for when a PC decides to rob them.
So that would mean for every town where the PC's might want to buy some magic, I would really have to be prepared for them to attack it, no?
And they won't all be well protected. Sometimes the shop owner just won't have what it takes to fend off an attack from the PC's right? So that means they would get a shop's worth of goodies.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
I'm hoping to get some interesting discussion here, kind of like this thread.
Do you think THF is overrated?
What's THF?
That wizards should be blasters?
The most effective wizard is one who controls the battlefield. Blasting is for recreation.
Maybe you think Rogues are overpowered! (Related to this statement: Perhaps you are crazy?)
Define overpowered. What are using for comparison?
Yes, they are overpowered compared to everything of the same CR. So are all the other PC classes.
A more prevalent meme I have seen is that they are underpowered. Not sure what they mean by that.
They are equally as much fun to play as any other class and equally valuable members of any party.
No, I am not crazy.
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For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
Networking.
The shop doesn't carry big ticket items on the shelves. At best you might see a one or two thousand gold piece item like ring of protection or gloves of dexterity.
You want the high quality stuff, you place an order with the shopkeep. Then word goes out to the heavily guarded secret warehouses, and your item is transported via secure means to the shop. Rush teleportation shipping available for a premium.
This gives me the power to permit or deny any magic item I want with a simple explanation. 'It'll have to be custom forged.' 'The caravan was attacked by efreeti on the way and has been delayed.'
Oh, and if you feel like knocking over the store for the small haul of minor items? Better sleep lightly, because the thieves guild doesn't take unauthorized jobs against protected clients as a joke.
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I'm terribly opposed to magic item shops; having tried it exactly once. You have to make lists of available items and continually update them, for every city they pass through.
I now just tell players they have connections to buy items that can be made by casters up to 3 levels above their own, and can find someone to buy their items at half price. I have given names if I need them for RP opportunity, and declare magic items made to order. If they are in a major city they can do all of this without interacting with me. Nice and simple, doing more detracts (not adds) to gameplay.
I do house rule home games; detect magic can't detect abjurations or illusions, and no power / item can allow a player to cast spells with metamagic that raises it above a level you can cast (for instance, yOu can use a lesser empower rod on a 3rd level spell only if you can cast 5th level spells).
Players worked well with these when they were spelled out in advance. These days I sadly am regulated to PFS (no time for regular campaign) with the advantGes and disadvantages of such.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?Networking.
The shop doesn't carry big ticket items on the shelves. At best you might see a one or two thousand gold piece item like ring of protection or gloves of dexterity.
You want the high quality stuff, you place an order with the shopkeep. Then word goes out to the heavily guarded secret warehouses, and your item is transported via secure means to the shop. Rush teleportation shipping available for a premium.
This gives me the power to permit or deny any magic item I want with a simple explanation. 'It'll have to be custom forged.' 'The caravan was attacked by efreeti on the way and has been delayed.'
Have you ever had the PC's go "Ocean's Eleven" on you and try to make a big score byt robbing the magic shop, one of the hidden warehouses, or the caravan?
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That if you build your character in a manner not proscribed by one of the writers of the optimizing guides then the writer of said guide will appear at the foot of your bed and stare at you all night long with his cold dead eyes.
I think the idea of the "magic shop" has always bothered me for one reason. To make it realistic, I would really have to spec out the entire shop and all of it's defenses. Just so I can be prepared for when a PC decides to rob them.
So that would mean for every town where the PC's might want to buy some magic, I would really have to be prepared for them to attack it, no?
And they won't all be well protected. Sometimes the shop owner just won't have what it takes to fend off an attack from the PC's right? So that means they would get a shop's worth of goodies.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
Mainly? By having players who don't try to rob stores like that. I realize that might sound unwarrentedly dismissive; I don't mean to tell you 'you're doing it wrong', so allow me to rephrase. That kind of thing not happening is, more or less, a basic component of the social contract between DMs and players, as I see it. I tell my players up front that I'm not interested in GMing for an evil party; I generally employ a number of house rules that boost overall power, such as consolidating feats, and offering generous character creation terms; the players' responsibility is to use their power to be Superman or Spider-Man, not Lex Luthor or Green Goblin.
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Something we do is a simple reset to wealth by level every level.
I don't really care what the PC's have because the magic stuff simply isn't what the adventure is about -- the more I focus on it as a GM the more important it becomes to the players and the more it detracts from the game as a whole.
So rather than worry about them buying stuff or not buying stuff I simply give a reset each level. This works amazingly well since now they have no reason to steal everything under the sun or loot every corpse of every +1 ring of protection, and they know I'm not going to leave them hanging without loot. If I drop something cool they know it and respond accordingly.
What do they usually spend the wealth by level on? Upgrading that heirloom weapon, armor, whatever. So it's not like what they have suddenly changed, it's simply more than it was last level.
Crafting feats... well I'm honestly not too fond of them as a whole -- not because they break anything but because they take things off story more that is worth while. However if I'm not running the above house rule then it's the only way to guarantee you'll find the exact item you want (if I'm not running the above house rule then I'm using the default norm as it is in the book).
That optimization and role-playing are somehow a zero-sum game. You can have heavily optimized characters that you role-play well, and you can have poor characters poorly run. Everyone uses optimization to some extent (no one's going to make a Wizard who is an idiot or a uncharismatic Bard), and everyone plays a role to some extent. You can heavily or lightly optimize (either one can be effective) and you can create a simple or detailed character (either can be effective).
Have you ever had the PC's go "Ocean's Eleven" on you and try to make a big score byt robbing the magic shop, one of the hidden warehouses, or the caravan?
Yes but that was part of the thrust of the campaign and honestly most of their plans were less about doing the job and more about how to get away afterward -- they saw it as a very high risk low yield adventure and took the minimum they needed for what they wanted, and did the absolute maximum they could to prevent it coming back on them.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
By not allowing dick-wad players in my games in the first place. However, if you are unfortunate enough that you can't really choose your players, then any of the other posters' ideas shown above will likely work fine.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
It should get the CITY´s authorities pretty riled up, as well as the casters, guilds, maybe temples and every ( or half, at least some) adventurers of said city after their hides and what ever they stole. Escalate as fitting.
Though i have to say, i´m not really in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp.As a player i love magic shops, with style, that is. So, when i go shopping big in Absalom/Waterdeep/Sigil/MB, i expect someone to take my 6-digits-in-assorted-stuff in exchange for something really nice, without the GM telling me there´s no buyer in town, let alone someone who can produce a +5 weapon. I still wait for my custom-monster-slayer longer than i m comfortable with, but i know that quality takes time.
At low levels i´m just glad if anybody has a HEALING potion to SELL.
Also, it can get stale, if you get magic items to early, to easily.
Interesting thought Abraham. I think it would go well with my XP-less game.
agreed.
Interesting thought Abraham. I think it would go well with my XP-less game.
We've done that too -- especially with APs. forget the Exp you'll just level when it's time.
Interesting thought Abraham. I think it would go well with my XP-less game.We've done that too -- especially with APs. forget the Exp you'll just level when it's time.
I've had TERRIBLE experiences with XP-less APs.
It was v3.5 and not only did the module not take into account basic things like item creation, but was front loaded with things like permanent energy draining incorporeal undead.
You NEVER recovered from that and were left a decrepit adventurer HOPING to die so you could start anew.
I'm divorcing GP from magic items almost entirely. Instead, I look at the WBL table, but read the numbers as "mojo points" instead of "gold pieces."
I've had TERRIBLE experiences with XP-less APs.
It was v3.5 and not only did the module not take into account basic things like item creation, but was front loaded with things like permanent energy draining incorporeal undead.
You NEVER recovered from that and were left a decrepit adventurer HOPING to die so you could start anew.
Ahem, a terrible adventure design does not a terrible system make.
good stuff
Mere gold can be spent on castles, followers, hookers and blow, etc.
I laughed heartily at that.
I laughed heartily at that.
good stuff
Mere gold can be spent on castles, followers, hookers and blow, etc.
+1 on the hearty laugh. My boss almost caught me goofing off.
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For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?It should get the CITY´s authorities pretty riled up, as well as the casters, guilds, maybe temples and every ( or half, at least some) adventurers of said city after their hides and what ever they stole. Escalate as fitting.
Though i have to say, i´m not really in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp.
As a player i love magic shops, with style, that is. So, when i go shopping big in Absalom/Waterdeep/Sigil/MB, i expect someone to take my 6-digits-in-assorted-stuff in exchange for something really nice, without the GM telling me there´s no buyer in town, let alone someone who can produce a +5 weapon. I still wait for my custom-monster-slayer longer than i m comfortable with, but i know that quality takes time.
At low levels i´m just glad if anybody has a HEALING potion to SELL.
Also, it can get stale, if you get magic items to early, to easily.
For me it is just that only capitol cities, special places like sigil etc that you CAN buy magic normally. Minor items might show at the pawn shop but a magic shop is too big a venture to risk on anything but the biggest market with the best protections. Often you will have to commission gear, especially multi enchanted weapons and armor. Magic bags and minor rings and wonderous items might be on the shelves but nothing too specific.
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Ahem, a terrible adventure design does not a terrible system make.I've had TERRIBLE experiences with XP-less APs.
It was v3.5 and not only did the module not take into account basic things like item creation, but was front loaded with things like permanent energy draining incorporeal undead.
You NEVER recovered from that and were left a decrepit adventurer HOPING to die so you could start anew.
The adventure itself was quite fun, but the adventure design was DREADFUL.