Official errata was just released for the Heirloom Weapon trait.
Replace the Heirloom Weapon entry with the following text: “Heirloom Weapon: You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family (pay the standard gp cost for the weapon). When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits: proficiency with that specific weapon, a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon, or a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.”
Please discuss whether you think this change to be good, bad, balanced, unbalanced, etc. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
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For reasons I have discussed at length in the PFS version of this thread, I reckon the change blows big monkey chunks.
To quote something you would say, 'I think it represents a dumbing down'.
Its not a FIX, it's a NERF.
Seems fair to me really, some folks are gonna be upset however.
Edit: Case in point, see the Ninja above
for certain ideas the new heirloom weapon is amazing. this would have increased my monks cmb to trip with a temple sword.
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Aww, hell. I had a good story for my alchemist's falchion(actually a grosse messer blade) and everything. Now I get to hit him with a retcon hammer. What a nerf. Hope they look into Magical Lineage next. Or those traits that lessen armor check penalties.
On the other hand, I guess this solidifies the decision to go Master Chymist, since now he is proficient with simple weapons only.
Muser you can still use it, in fact you could use any falchion.
Terrible.
Brings his popcorn and sits in his lawn chair. Naked
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Meh the original trait presented a power creep with the blackblade magus circumventing what is normally a crap trait past lvl 3 or so and this combo is horribly sketchy and is up to gm aproval in the first place.
Very true in that there were a few corner cases where things went a tad awry.
On the other hand it does away with legitimate storyline/seemingly reasonable combos such as...
* Elven Curve Blades for Half Elves
* Heirloom Katana's for Samurai
You still had to buy the item, you got 300gp 'free'.
With rich Parents you get 900gp. Enough to buy the weapon AND a suit of armour to go with it.
There was some conjecture about it being equivalent to Feats, but that was a rather selective view,
For the trait to be maxed out I would need to pick a weapon I would not otherwise get by virtue of race or class. Otherwise it immediately becomes a lot less of a trait (if squeezing value is my aim)
Now assuming I did want to max that Trait, it means I can use only that particular weapon.
As the character continues on, the character is pretty much stuck with either maintaining that weapon (spending their cash having it enchanted and needing to build from the ground up) or go back to being less efficient with a 'looted item'.
In campaigns, the bulk of the equipment a player gets is looted items, they either have to sell these at a loss to then pay a pile to get their weapon upgraded, OR make a decision about abandoning that weapon and being less skilled with the new item. It created choices.
As a game issue, I ever lose it, that's it. Stolen, destroyed, captured whatever = GONE.
Weigh that up with the number of additional plot hooks and adventure stories an heirloom weapon can bring to a GM and frankly this represents a real loss.
I would prefer to see players kicking about with their Hattori Hanzo's.
'Perfect game balance' is something I am not concerned with.
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Well the good news is it fixes the biggest parts of the feat that were broken:
The bad news is it turns it into a feat which is only really useful for a few levels. Once you get past 3-4th level it's pretty meh. Not being able to use magic to enhance it with magic makes it nearly worthless past that level.
This is actually on-par with a fair number of other traits though so it's 'balanced' on whole against typical traits, but will likely get passed over by most players as most feats that are only useful for a few levels are.
Some curious uses here though, primarily for getting proficiency with a racial or martial weapon for characters who don't have access to those weapons.
Inquisitors might use it to snag a martial melee weapon.
Non-martial halflings might find it worthwhile to grab this to pick up a slingstaff. Add in Greater Magic Weapon at higher levels and possibly some magic ammo and it's quite serviceable.
Hmm... I think there is some life to this feat yet and I'll be it will still get used in spite of the 'nerf'.
Not being able to use magic to enhance it with magic makes it nearly worthless past that level.
I wonder if this is one of the reasons they developed the masterwork transformation spell in Ultimate Magic?
That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.
Masterwork Transformation spell. + 2 to tripping on that tripping polearm is real nice.
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You have to remember that earlier than this update, Ultimate Magic was released, containing the spell Masterwork Transformation.
Your cool weapon with all its rich history is now useless because you can't add magic abilities?
Find a Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Witch/Sorcerer/Oracle/Bard who knows/can prepare the spell, *Poof* Now it is Masterwork and can be enchanted.
EDIT: Ninja'd :P
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Not being able to use magic to enhance it with magic makes it nearly worthless past that level.I wonder if this is one of the reasons they developed the masterwork transformation spell in Ultimate Magic?
That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.
Yeah, seems like an easy fix, it's duration instantaneous so it's permanent and non-dispellable. Someone else pointed that spell out but I didn't catch that it was permanent.
I wonder if I can use this spell with PFS... hmm.
That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.
Yeah but now you are paying 360 for M/Work rather than 300.
That's just annoying.It also doesn't make for a very engaging backstory or sense of worth in the item, 'Your dads craptastic old longsword' is not nearly as interesting as a Samurai passing on his 'artwork' Katana.
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That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.Yeah but now you are paying 360 for M/Work rather than 300.
That's just annoying.It also doesn't make for a very engaging backstory or sense of worth in the item, 'Your dads craptastic old longsword' is not nearly as interesting as a Samurai passing on his 'artwork' Katana.
It's a trait.
It's now as powerful as a typical trait (arguably still slightly more powerful than many but it's much much closer to where a trait belongs).
The spell allows you to keep the trait useful for the life of the character which IMO was the only real problem with the fix.
Overall, it's a good result.
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That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.Yeah but now you are paying 360 for M/Work rather than 300.
That's just annoying.
60gp extra is more than worth it for a +1 to hit with AoO's or +2 with combat maneuvers.
The biggest nerf, in my opinion, is that you can't select exotic weapons. Why was that? The fact that you are no longer auto-proficient was balancing enough. You don't need BOTH nerfs. That's too much.
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I really hope my PFS Gm doesnt see this, It literally kills too many concepts (Though I took the prof feat anyway) It sure does make the Trait..Well, Useless to say the least. Unlike other traits that can be applied all the time this one can be taken away and even if its not, it now cost MORE than getting a regular masterwork version of the weapon, Heck this one one of the few traits that made taking that wierd Exotic weapon great without having to waste a feat for it....Yeah I hope they dont see this.
I really hope my PFS Gm doesnt see this, It literally kills too many concepts (Though I took the prof feat anyway) It sure does make the Trait..Well, Useless to say the least. Unlike other traits that can be applied all the time this one can be taken away and even if its not, it now cost MORE than getting a regular masterwork version of the weapon, Heck this one one of the few traits that made taking that wierd Exotic weapon great without having to waste a feat for it....Yeah I hope they dont see this.
Umm so you plan to cheat?
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That would allow you to keep your heirloom, masterwork it, and the apply magic to it. Short of it being sundered or stolen, you will have it the rest of your career AND have it be up to snuff.Yeah but now you are paying 360 for M/Work rather than 300.
That's just annoying.It also doesn't make for a very engaging backstory or sense of worth in the item, 'Your dads craptastic old longsword' is not nearly as interesting as a Samurai passing on his 'artwork' Katana.
It's a trait.
It's now as powerful as a typical trait (arguably still slightly more powerful than many but it's much much closer to where a trait belongs).
The spell allows you to keep the trait useful for the life of the character which IMO was the only real problem with the fix.
Overall, it's a good result.
If you need to be reliant on someone else's SPELL to make your FAMILY HEIRLOOM not suck I think there is a problem there. Heck Why would a family heirloom be not masterwork " Here son this is a regular greatsword passed down through generations that you have to pay regular price for...congrats"
I wonder if I can use this spell with PFS... hmm.No. The effects of every long-term spell in PFS are reduced to "Until the end of the scenario" even for instantaneous duration spells.
You serious? I've never heard that before.
That's a huge freaking nerf!
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I really hope my PFS Gm doesnt see this, It literally kills too many concepts (Though I took the prof feat anyway) It sure does make the Trait..Well, Useless to say the least. Unlike other traits that can be applied all the time this one can be taken away and even if its not, it now cost MORE than getting a regular masterwork version of the weapon, Heck this one one of the few traits that made taking that wierd Exotic weapon great without having to waste a feat for it....Yeah I hope they dont see this.Umm so you plan to cheat?
Im not cheating, the character was established before the change for me to change it again would ruin the character ... The Errata went from maybe reasonable to completely unnecessary..
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Im not cheating, the character was established before the change for me to change it again would ruin the character ... The Errata went from maybe reasonable to completely unnecessary..
You are not using the current accepted rules for PFS. Yes, that is called cheating.
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You are not using the current accepted rules for PFS. Yes, that is called cheating.Im not cheating, the character was established before the change for me to change it again would ruin the character ... The Errata went from maybe reasonable to completely unnecessary..
I guess So.
I'm sure they will have to have another Errata/FAQ or it is seriously useless with the information above, You can't even improved the weapon..
Where, specifically, are people finding this eratta. I would like a link.
Also, not abiding by the rules is cheating. Maybe this won't take effect until next season.
The old one was too good, as can be seen by the reactions in this thread.
60gp extra is more than worth it for a +1 to hit with AoO's or +2 with combat maneuvers.
60gp PLUS the actual Trait itself, which means yuo aren't taking other more universal traits.
Along with the 'No exotics' this becomes an issue.
Similarly, you can lose the weapon, which means yuo lose the whole trait bonus.
So there's a little more to it when considered holistically.
what power level do people experience t as a trait? it's now pretty I'n line with other traits.
let's see
sirloin weapon a trip weapon and it's now an awesome trip weapon or I can still get proficiency I'n stuff without dropping a feat.
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what power level do people experience t as a trait? it's now pretty I'n line with other traits.
let's see
sirloin weapon a trip weapon and it's now an awesome trip weapon or I can still get proficiency I'n stuff without dropping a feat.
At level..1.. After that your family's ultimate hand-me-down becomes garbage apparently. If instantaneous spells indeed stop working at the end of a scenario
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what power level do people experience t as a trait? it's now pretty I'n line with other traits.
let's see
sirloin weapon a trip weapon and it's now an awesome trip weapon or I can still get proficiency I'n stuff without dropping a feat.
At level..1.. After that your family's ultimate hand-me-down becomes garbage apparently. If instantaneous spells indeed stop working at the end of a scenario
That's a problem with PFS, not the trait. I can't believe what that rule does to contingency. :( Rules like that make me wonder why anyone ever plays PFS.
Where, specifically, are people finding this eratta. I would like a link.
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I wonder if I can use this spell with PFS... hmm.No. The effects of every long-term spell in PFS are reduced to "Until the end of the scenario" even for instantaneous duration spells.
Hmm. Curious, I knew duration permanent spells ended, I hadn't heard duration instant spells had even been brought up. I don't suppose you have an example?
At level..1.. After that your family's ultimate hand-me-down becomes garbage apparently. If instantaneous spells indeed stop working at the end of a scenario
Yet take 'Rich Parents' and they will give you not only your M/Work exotic weapon, but a suit of M/work armour to go with it.
Also PFS banned.
Which is what bugs me here.
If they don't like HW in PFS, ban it in PFS.
RP is still 'valid' outside PFS, yet HW is nerfed no matter where your table is.
Keep your PFS chocolate out of my peanut butter :p
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Official errata was just released for the Heirloom Weapon trait.
Replace the Heirloom Weapon entry with the following text: “Heirloom Weapon: You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family (pay the standard gp cost for the weapon). When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits: proficiency with that specific weapon, a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon, or a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.”
Please discuss whether you think this change to be good, bad, balanced, unbalanced, etc. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
A lot of people seem to think there is a piece of text that has been removed: "(but not other weapons of that type)".
So:
Character without martial weapon proficiency get to know how to use one martial weapon - Exactly identical to a feat
or
+1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
or
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon
The term specific weapon is a bit tricky and prone to interpretation, but, as the "(but not other weapons of that type)" part has been removed I am inclined to think that the benefit is maintained for all the weapons of that type, not only for the single heirloom weapon.
A good idea is to hit FAQ to know if my interpretation is right or not.
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FAQ question: the words "specific weapon” in the Heirloom weapon trait mean that the trait bonus apply only to that single weapon but not to other weapons of that type, or they apply to all the weapons of that type (i.e. to all rapiers for example)?
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Also PFS banned.Which is what bugs me here.
If they don't like HW in PFS, ban it in PFS.
RP is still 'valid' outside PFS, yet HW is nerfed no matter where your table is.
Keep your PFS chocolate out of my peanut butter :p
Actually, the new version is fine outside of PFS, it's only really nerfed in PFS where you can't use the spell to upgrade to MW.
The term specific weapon is a bit tricky and prone to interpretation, but, as the "(but not other weapons of that type)" part has been removed I am inclined to think that the benefit is maintained for all the weapons of that type, not only for the single heirloom weapon.
You were given a weapon, and skilled in that specific weapon, not weapons of that type.
Significant difference.
Similarly, by being so limited it is nowhere near as good as the parent feat of 'Martial Weapon'
Actually, the new version is fine outside of PFS, it's only really nerfed in PFS where you can't use the spell to upgrade to MW.
I was more referring to the notion that Heirloom Weapon caused an issue in PFS, and Rich Parents similarly caused a problem, but one was simply withdrawn from PFS, the other was changed game-wide.
I think that is a discrepancy in treatment.
The 'no longer M/work' is one thing, but no exotics either?
Harsh.
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Actually, the new version is fine outside of PFS, it's only really nerfed in PFS where you can't use the spell to upgrade to MW.I was more referring to the notion that Heirloom Weapon caused an issue in PFS, and Rich Parents similarly caused a problem, but one was simply withdrawn from PFS, the other was changed game-wide.
I think that is a discrepancy in treatment.
The 'no longer M/work' is one thing, but no exotics either?
Harsh.
Yeah the no Masterwork would have been reasonable but you had to have a reason to keep that awesome Temple Sword for your Summoner, otherwise`you just pick up random loot and use that instead, and thats sad, Can't even use RP reasons to say that the heirloom weapon was dispelled and must be used in a great adventure to reawaken its powers or anything because Oops sorry its not masterwork and it never could have been magical.
Actually if they simply took away the trait bonus to hit people would have whined less
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Actually, the new version is fine outside of PFS, it's only really nerfed in PFS where you can't use the spell to upgrade to MW.I was more referring to the notion that Heirloom Weapon caused an issue in PFS, and Rich Parents similarly caused a problem, but one was simply withdrawn from PFS, the other was changed game-wide.
I think that is a discrepancy in treatment.
The 'no longer M/work' is one thing, but no exotics either?
Harsh.
I haven't seen any real evidence that the fix relates directly to PFS. It was criticized in the general forums at the time as being too good for a trait, maybe you missed those discussions. PFS has many traits and feats that are not allowed, if it was a PFS specific problem they could have easily just disallowed it.
Do you have some specific reason for thinking the change relates to PFS?