All right. An awesome thought just entered my mind.
I believe we are all familiar with the Magic versus Science trope. Well, I think it would be awesome to subvert it into oblivion. Simply put, I want to advance the technology of Pathfinder to, say, around 1890. This actually isn't that much of a challenge. The Pathfinder core classes are designed in such a way that they have equal potential in melee and ranged combat depending on the individual character build, so introducing effective firearms isn't going to weaken any classes. The only glaring issue is armor, and that's easily handled with Unearthed Arcana's defense bonus system and the Fighter can be given something cool to replace Armor Mastery.
So, why 1890? It's right in the middle of the industrial revolution, meaning science and technology is a major factor in the world. At the same time, this is Pathfinder, so magic is everywhere. This is perfect for what I have in mind:
What if instead being locked in mortal rivalry, spellcasters and scientists realized that magic and science, if used together, could create things far better than either could create alone? Basically, many items would be both technological and magical in origin. The magic musket here is an example of what I mean by magic and technology working together, if too archaic to still be a relevant weapon. A LOT of items in this world would exist on similar principles, such as steam engines that use magical fluids to produce far more power than water ever could and mechanical steam powered dragons (for use as "fighter aircraft" in war) that could never function without both clockwork technology and magic working in concert.
Would it not be awesome?
I've done Shadowrun-ish settings (high technology AND high magic with a fair bit of synergy possible between the two) with D&D-derived rules before. It actually doesn't work that badly although you need to be careful on the equivalent of wealth by level.
Yea. I need to change the wealth system. With magic items so common, equipment won't be the battle winner it once was.
My idea is a split between minor and major magical items. Minor ones are mass produced things that commoners can easily purchase and don't have many major effects, while major magic items are more difficult to manufacture and therefore less common, but more powerful and more in line with typical Pathfinder magic items. I already have an idea for a major magic item: it's a revolver that never runs out of ammunition. Whenever it's fired, a new cartridge appears in the cylinder to take the place of the one that was just lost.
I've done Shadowrun-ish settings (high technology AND high magic with a fair bit of synergy possible between the two) with D&D-derived rules before. It actually doesn't work that badly although you need to be careful on the equivalent of wealth by level.Yea. I need to change the wealth system. With magic items so common, equipment won't be the battle winner it once was.
My idea is a split between minor and major magical items. Minor ones are mass produced things that commoners can easily purchase and don't have many major effects, while major magic items are more difficult to manufacture and therefore less common, but more powerful and more in line with typical Pathfinder magic items. I already have an idea for a major magic item: it's a revolver that never runs out of ammunition. Whenever it's fired, a new cartridge appears in the cylinder to take the place of the one that was just lost.
As I am a big fan of folks approaching magic as a technology in 3.X games I like the idea.
Might be worth while to divide the magic item costs by 10 and WBL by 10. Also worth looking at the alternate firearms section of Ultimate combat about making guns more common it adjusts the costs etc might be a good starting off point to adjust magic as well.
I've done Shadowrun-ish settings (high technology AND high magic with a fair bit of synergy possible between the two) with D&D-derived rules before. It actually doesn't work that badly although you need to be careful on the equivalent of wealth by level.Yea. I need to change the wealth system. With magic items so common, equipment won't be the battle winner it once was.
My idea is a split between minor and major magical items. Minor ones are mass produced things that commoners can easily purchase and don't have many major effects, while major magic items are more difficult to manufacture and therefore less common, but more powerful and more in line with typical Pathfinder magic items. I already have an idea for a major magic item: it's a revolver that never runs out of ammunition. Whenever it's fired, a new cartridge appears in the cylinder to take the place of the one that was just lost.
As I am a big fan of folks approaching magic as a technology in 3.X games I like the idea.
Might be worth while to divide the magic item costs by 10 and WBL by 10. Also worth looking at the alternate firearms section of Ultimate combat about making guns more common it adjusts the costs etc might be a good starting off point to adjust magic as well.
Is that section of Ultimate Combat available online? I don't have the book.
Basically, this setting is Eberron with guns as the primary weapons and magic items that are mass produced.
Yes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.
Yes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.
I might use some of the magical properties and ammunition types, but I won't be using any of the other rules there. I think I'd rather make my own firearms. The ones here are very general.
Yes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.I might use some of the magical properties and ammunition types, but I won't be using any of the other rules there. I think I'd rather make my own firearms. The ones here are very general.
Not getting my point its about a scaled up tech/magic where as industrialization increases costs go down mechanic already being expressed in the game. I could care less about what guns you choose to use or not
I have an idea for a Barbarian archetype that would work well here: it gives a dexterity bonus instead of a strength bonus in rage. It still gains the AC penalty, but the dexterity bonus counteracts it, leaving the AC essentially unchanged. It gains a reflex save bonus while raging instead of a will save bonus. Basically a raging Barbarian would gain scary good reflexes instead of supernatural strength. This is great for firearms. Plus, the original strength Barbarian would still be available and useful, as melee combat still occurs. I also decree that a firearm used as a club is a simple weapon, not an improvised weapon, so there is no attack roll penalty for bashing people over the head (which I could so see a strength Barbarian doing during a rage).
Not getting my point its about a scaled up tech/magic where as industrialization increases costs go down mechanic already being expressed in the game. I could care less about what guns you choose to use or notYes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.I might use some of the magical properties and ammunition types, but I won't be using any of the other rules there. I think I'd rather make my own firearms. The ones here are very general.
I'd rather handle economics myself, considering the fact that I have to completely overhaul the magic item costs and magic item creation system (XP costs and high gold costs have got to go, along with lengthy creating times) to make this work realistically.
I have an idea for a Barbarian archetype that would work well here: it gives a dexterity bonus instead of a strength bonus in rage. It still gains the AC penalty, but the dexterity bonus counteracts it, leaving the AC essentially unchanged. It gains a reflex save bonus while raging instead of a will save bonus. Basically a raging Barbarian would gain scary good reflexes instead of supernatural strength. This is great for firearms. Plus, the original strength Barbarian would still be available and useful, as melee combat still occurs. I also decree that a firearm used as a club is a simple weapon, not an improvised weapon, so there is no attack roll penalty for bashing people over the head (which I could so see a strength Barbarian doing during a rage).
That barbarian archetype already exists. You really may want to look at the stuff at d20pfsrd.com if you don't want to invest in all the books to see what already is in PF before you remake the wheel
I'd rather handle economics myself, considering the fact that I have to completely overhaul the magic item costs and magic item creation system (XP costs and high gold costs have got to go, along with lengthy creating times) to make this work realistically.Not getting my point its about a scaled up tech/magic where as industrialization increases costs go down mechanic already being expressed in the game. I could care less about what guns you choose to use or notYes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.I might use some of the magical properties and ammunition types, but I won't be using any of the other rules there. I think I'd rather make my own firearms. The ones here are very general.
You mean like I already suggested up-thread. You really, really also might want to read the books, there is no XP cost in PF for magic item creation.
I have an idea for a Barbarian archetype that would work well here: it gives a dexterity bonus instead of a strength bonus in rage. It still gains the AC penalty, but the dexterity bonus counteracts it, leaving the AC essentially unchanged. It gains a reflex save bonus while raging instead of a will save bonus. Basically a raging Barbarian would gain scary good reflexes instead of supernatural strength. This is great for firearms. Plus, the original strength Barbarian would still be available and useful, as melee combat still occurs. I also decree that a firearm used as a club is a simple weapon, not an improvised weapon, so there is no attack roll penalty for bashing people over the head (which I could so see a strength Barbarian doing during a rage).That barbarian archetype already exists. You really may want to look at the stuff at d20pfsrd.com if you don't want to invest in all the books to see what already is in PF before you remake the wheel
That archetype gives a dexterity and wisdom bonus. I want a dexterity and constitution bonus. It's not a Serene Barbarian, it's a pissed of Barbarian that happens to be really quick as well as tough.
You mean like I already suggested up-thread. You really, really also might want to read the books, there is no XP cost in PF for magic item creation.I'd rather handle economics myself, considering the fact that I have to completely overhaul the magic item costs and magic item creation system (XP costs and high gold costs have got to go, along with lengthy creating times) to make this work realistically.Not getting my point its about a scaled up tech/magic where as industrialization increases costs go down mechanic already being expressed in the game. I could care less about what guns you choose to use or notYes it is under firearms in your campaign offers several economy options.I might use some of the magical properties and ammunition types, but I won't be using any of the other rules there. I think I'd rather make my own firearms. The ones here are very general.
Well, I've never made magic items much before, so I hadn't read over that part yet. I'd have noticed when I went in to overhaul the system. I can't memorize every single rule.
]Well, I've never made magic items much before, so I hadn't read over that part yet. I'd have noticed when I went in to overhaul the system. I can't memorize every single rule.
If you plan on hacking the system about magic items I don't think its too much to ask for you to read and know that section. I would expect that much as a player.
As to the barbarian really read the SRD I see no wisdom bonus there.
Good luck, enjoy. But, yea... I gotta go.
]Well, I've never made magic items much before, so I hadn't read over that part yet. I'd have noticed when I went in to overhaul the system. I can't memorize every single rule.If you plan on hacking the system about magic items I don't think its too much to ask for you to read and know that section. I would expect that much as a player.
As to the barbarian really read the SRD I see no wisdom bonus there.
Good luck, enjoy. But, yea... I gotta go.
...This archetype isn't at all the same as the Urban Barbarian. It has no urban focus, and doesn't have the same modifications to it's rage ability. It gets a flat dex/con bonus and will bonus, not the ability to choose it's bonus. It also keeps fast movement. Maybe you should read the SRD. I thought you were referring to the Serene Barbarian, which gets dex and wis bonuses.
Again, I can't have all the rules memorized. I was proposing something off the top of my head. I'd read over the system before actually implementing anything, so I'd have taken the fact that Pathfinder lacks an XP cost for magic items into account when creating the new system.
A couple things to consider:
Scientists like to quantify things. Vancian magic resists quantification. A spell point system where spell points have quantifiable if somewhat nebulous value in real units would be a better thematic fit.
Wall of Stone may not require the caster to expend enough energy to create a stone wall ex nihilo if it works by opening a conduit to the elemental plane of earth, but if a conduit opened for X spell points can let through Y amount of stone it should be just as easy to open the conduit to one of the other elemental planes and get a similar volume of something else.
The other thing is that a lot of technological development is driven by war or the threat of war. Figure out the role of magic in warfare. If permanent gravity reduction is cheap there's no reason to develop light materials like aluminum and titanium. If every infantryman can have a handy haversack there's less of a load limit on their weaponry. Every grunt may go about carrying more blam than a typical Fallout protagonist. If wizards can cast fireball and are common enough to draft in militarily significant numbers that's going to influence the development of artillery.
Peacetime technology can also be effected. A lot of steam engine development was driven by the need to get large loads over the Rockies. Magical airships combined with extradimensional shipping crates could dramatically inhibit the development of steam technology. On the other hand airships need different kinds of power sources. Early on they'll need a wizard on board casting control winds. Freeing them from that may promote quicker development of internal combustion engines or even early jet engines.
A set of common magical items to consider is what I call thaumatic converters. These would be compact and potentially highly efficient magic devices for converting one form of energy into another. Solid or nearly solid state equivalents to lightbulbs, dynamos, heaters, and photovoltaic cells are easy to conceive, but other...
I was already planning to use the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana. I have a thread about it. I love the spell point system, and regard it as superior to the spells per day system. To make up for the system sort of shafting spontaneous spellcasters, classes that learn spells get +1 bonus spell point per level and do not increase the casting time for metamagic spells (prepared spell casters can apply metamagic feats on the fly under the spell point system, so this isn't too powerful a bonus to give spontaneous spellcasters.
What I'm thinking is that there is an NPC class that can create minor magic items easily, quickly, and cheaply, but lacks the ability to cast spells beyond level 2, which is a rare ability that the PC classes have a monopoly on. This NPC class is by and far the most common spellcaster, so spellcasters that are useful in combat cannot be drafted in militarily significant numbers (they serve, but there aren't that many). That's why enchanted items, such as range and accuracy improved howitzers and dirt-repelling rifles using ultra-efficient magical gunpowder, are the face of warfare. That's also why trains are far more common than airships.
I like the thaumatic converters. They shall be used. I also have an idea for an item called the memory crystal. It can store writing, images, "video", and sound, and send them to any other memory crystal. It's like a computer with an internet modem, a television, and a cell phone rolled into one, and they are so ubiquitous that everyone has them. This availability of instant communication will have vast effects both in war and peacetime.
Bear in mind that in a society where technology is improving the life of the common man, magicians may well become clannish and secretive. The invention of the Patent Office, among other things, is likely to lead to 'secret spells' just as it did for 'secret formulas' in our own industrial revolution. Carefully note which inventions came when, and where science is likely to do better than magic. For example, electric lighting involves a huge initial expense, ongoing maintenance payments and struggled through several ineffective or highly energy-inefficient forms before the development of the streetlight - there, magic (i.e. continual flame) has the advantage. On the other hand, refrigeration has a high set-up cost but surprisingly low maintenance costs, while the magical equivalent usually relies on an elemental gate or a permanent magical item - the first is risky, the second expensive (particularly if it's disjuncted or stolen) - so there, science would dominate. Do a bit of research on the assembly lines of your chosen tech period. Note there are several areas where the two in concert would do much better - for example, in a world where wind-controlling and heat-generating magic is available, blimps and dirigibles may be quite common. In general, for any technology that was missing one key part, it may arrive early if magic can provide the missing spark - and (though this is harder to judge) if magic falls short in some area, see if a particular tech invention can help you out. (For example, the only problem wizards have in battle is that they are extremely vulnerable to being smashed into bloody pulp. Whereas a wizard in an armored car...)
This is precisely what I want to do. I LOVE the idea of magic and technology working together.
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I found this character class on the SRD, and it fits this campaign perfectly. I decree that it should be allowed, but the alignment should be any, not any neutral.
This looks great for less developed societies such as Native Americans.
Be aware that the ToS Artificer can be easily broken. You may want to go with an update to the Eberron artificer, or some other similarly-flavored class.
What's wrong with it? Maybe it's fixable?
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I've seen a fix for it somewhere, but the main problem with the class is that they can put any number of spells in their inventions. By mixing blasting spells, which is normally impossible, they can surpass the blasting capabilities of a wizard or sorcerer easily. Mix fireball, lightning bolt, this, that, and the other, and pump out tens of D6s. Other than that, there are some slight flaws in wording that I can't quite place at the moment.
I've seen a fix for it somewhere, but the main problem with the class is that they can put any number of spells in their inventions. By mixing blasting spells, which is normally impossible, they can surpass the blasting capabilities of a wizard or sorcerer easily. Mix fireball, lightning bolt, this, that, and the other, and pump out tens of D6s. Other than that, there are some slight flaws in wording that I can't quite place at the moment.
Why not add in a house rule forbidding them from mixing damage-dealing spells? Would that work?
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I think that would help significantly. Another thing which could come up is very quick buffing. If you tend towards a 15-minute work day, they can prepare an invention with EP, Bull's Strength, Shield, Haste, etc, and buff themselves silly, or their team mates. As you rise in level, the UMD check to activate the inventions more times/day becomes trivial at best.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I'm just trying to help you be aware of things that could happen.
I think that would help significantly. Another thing which could come up is very quick buffing. If you tend towards a 15-minute work day, they can prepare an invention with EP, Bull's Strength, Shield, Haste, etc, and buff themselves silly, or their team mates. As you rise in level, the UMD check to activate the inventions more times/day becomes trivial at best.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I'm just trying to help you be aware of things that could happen.
I didn't think you were being a jerk. Your analysis of the class is appreciated.
Perhaps a limit to active buffs at one time is needed? I'd have to go over the rules again to decide on what's reasonable.
I'm not saying you thought I was a jerk, or that an active buff limit was required. A better limit may be to that of the number of spells in the inventions themselves.
Edit: I only say things like "I'm not trying to be a jerk" because sometimes my comments have misconstrued as such.
A limit on spells in inventions works for me, as does the much appreciated archetype listed below.
She would make such a good bard for this setting.
I have an idea about her. What if I created a new archetype: the Necrobard? It's a bard that can bolster and control undead with bardic music. Later on it can even create them. Bardic music + magical "electric" guitars + necromancery = badass if done right (Though I admit it could get very stupid if done wrong). I'll get to work on this archetype right away.
You may want to take a look at the Dirge Bard as a starting place.
Yes. This is a cool archetype. I might use it for a good aligned character and give an evil opponent the Necrobard archetype I'm constructing. It'd be such an awesome duel.
I was considering optimizing the Cavalier for firearms, but have decided to ban the class altogether. It's very much a knightly hero in shining armor class (see the Challenge, Order, and Banner abilities), which is just asking to get shot in a campaign where your average opponent has a revolver or lever action rifle. It fits in great with the medieval setting of most games, but not here. The Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger cavalry archetypes (modified for firearms as necessary) will be offered to players who want mounted characters.
Order of cockatrice cavaliers are selfish sonsoffemaledogs, and seems like they'd fit well.
I strongly dislike the ToS artificer. I will soon post 3 better takes on it.
As a historian of science, I might be able to help too.
Order of cockatrice cavaliers are selfish sonsoffemaledogs, and seems like they'd fit well.
I strongly dislike the ToS artificer. I will soon post 3 better takes on it.
As a historian of science, I might be able to help too.
That would be very much appreciated. I want some version of the Artificer to use. I looks like a perfectly fitting class.
Anthony Kane's version of an artificer type. Perhaps a bit too Tesla?
Engineer by Christopher Delvo. I really like this one, although the companion they get should have construct traits. This is my favorite of the bunch.
The Ardwright by Evil Lincoln's brother. This one is pretty sweet too. This one in particular is the one that would best fit a merging of tech and magic, I think.
I've already volunteered the Engineer Alchemist, but I completely forgot about the other two. Those are both really nice as well.
Yea, I forgot about mentioning that you mentioned the first. I had planned on it...
But I think listing all the ones I know of would've been more useful, hence why I added it to the list.
Hmm... kind of like a steampunk-but-with-magic, type of setting. I'd imagine stuff like Tesla's wilder claims and such would make good ideas for stories.
Actually, it makes me think of the Thief series of games. A little bit of swords, a little bit of sorcery, and a little bit of industrial.
Another good inspiration source.
With the industrial era there was more than just technology being advanced... a lot of societal things were really kicking in. Using d20 Modern's Wealth system might work better than gold pieces, as the concept of borrowing money and debt might be a little more advanced in this kind of backdrop.
Thanks for the new classes.
As for the wealth bonus system, I want to use it, but it's from D20 Modern, which has no Open Game License, and I intend to distribute these rules in a PDF online, so I'm worried about copyright infringement.
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You can copy the basic structure so long as you don't copy the text. I'm pretty sure theres a modern SRD though.
A wealth table like in d20 modern isnt that hard to use and its not a unique idea. I have to say though. I dont know why youd want to use that wealth table. Having played with it, its got to be the worst wealth system Ive ever used.
I've decided to split the PDF into two parts:
First - Basic Stuff - This is useful for any campaign with 1890s technology
An overview of how the core and base classes work with firearms
Recommendations on which classes to allow and disallow
Information on skills in a tech-heavy world
Travel rules (such as how trains and steamships work)
Naval combat rules
Vehicle combat rules
Weapon stats
Feats
Recommendations regarding spells
An overview of the technology that existed in the real 1890s in game terms
Part two is campaign setting specific stuff. It has a lot of the stuff I've been talking about here, such as explanation of a world where magic and technology work together more often than not. It has:
An explanation of the technology/magic system I've been talking about where magic and technology work together to do greater things than either can do alone
Information about the countries (Maps, culture bases, legal codes, diets, economies, militaries, race interactions)
Monsters
Classes and weapons allowed
Religion (I have something pretty good in mind)
Prestige Classes
Spells
Available technology
I'm organizing it this way so that people who just want the 1890s tech rules can simply read the first part without bothering with the whole campaign setting, which is a setting I feel some will like but others will not (It subverts a lot of basic D&D world assumptions.).
Here are the basics of a divine magic system I intend to use in this campaign setting.
The d20 Modern OGC is available here at Wizards own site, and there is quite a bit of it.
What is missing is the conversion values for Wealth DC to Dollars. And then in Urban Arcana was the conversion of D&D gold to Dollars. I've got a reverse engineered table around my file system some place... is Spotlight smarter then I am?
Although quite honestly every time I've played d20 Modern, Purchase DCs are the one thing they hate the most. Then again they like doing the penny pinching end of tracking their wealth. They like the clink of coin :P
Here it is... hum... how best to present this without ungodly page stretch. Google Docs save me.
I derived a basic formal for the dollar values once... can't seem to find where that went. I've also seen suggested conversions at 2 GP per dollar and 10 GP per dollar, instead of what was given in Urban Arcana. So yes, you can build this in provided you're willing to play a little fast and loose with how you decide to assign purchase DCs.
What if I'm not even using dollars? My planned system is pence, shillings, and pounds. Once penny (pence coins are called pennies) is about 2 copper pieces, 20 pence are a shilling, and 20 shillings are a pound. Pence, shillings, and single pounds come in coins, multiple pounds come in paper (actually a fabric) currency.
As you will no doubt notice, this is essentially a highly simplified version of 19th century British currency (The real deal was INCREDIBLY complicated, and I'm not even going to try and translate it into Pathfinder terms.). This is because the planned campaign setting takes place in an analogue of the British empire (Though here institutionalized racism was canned after a near collapse of the empire, though unofficial racism is still an issue. Like regular Pathfinder, gender roles are pretty loose, and women can legally serve in any area of the military or any other career, and often do. They can also be legally drafted in times of war.). This analogue, however, colonized some things Britain did not and did not colonize some things they did. It possesses analogues of the American Southwest/Texas (for all you cowboy fans out there), California (my beloved homeland), Hawaii, New England (Salem witches coven, anyone?), and a chunk of Brazil (not the whole thing), but it does not posses India or the Middle East (Except Egypt. This analogue MUST have Egypt. I want mummies and pyramids.). It DOES posses Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, and Jamaica. It also (obviously) possess England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.
EDIT: What I like about this country is that, although it has the classic 1890s setting (the American West), it's also got lots of other places, so not every campaign or adventure has to be a Wild West romp, though they certainly can be. There are all sorts of places to go adventuring in. If I want to protect a town from undead in Texas, Colorado, or Arizona, I can do that. If I decide I want to hop over to Australia to track a dangerous bush ranger across the Outback, I can do that. If I want to explore a medieval Scottish castle, and try to bring peace to the ghosts that've been plaguing it for 800 years, I can do that. If I want to hunt alongside the Iroquois in Eastern Canada, I can do that. If I want to explore an ancient Egyptian pyramid, I can do that. There are a plethora of options available in this world.
On technomancy items… Having played in a campaign like this - high magic/high tech (though we are talking way higher tech than industrial era) you may want to consider a couple things.
Require skills to use the stuff. Not as in make a UMD check, but needing a certain level of relevant knowledge skills to use them.
Keep their powers as mostly utility type things. Guns that reload themselves – awesome fun. Guns that shoot 3 stunning fireball grenades per round… problematic.
I’ll also add a hopefully unnecessary plea, but it needs to be said just in case. Don’t restrict use by requiring people to play certain races that need to take a special feat at first level for the privilege! That more than anything made me hate Eberron.
I’ll also add a hopefully unnecessary plea, but it needs to be said just in case. Don’t restrict use by requiring people to play certain races that need to take a special feat at first level for the privilege! That more than anything made me hate Eberron.
I don't plan on doing that. The races generally differ in social structures and traditions, not in available technology. An elf is just as likely to posses a modern firearm as a human. The same with other technology. Just because elves like their woodlands doesn't mean they don't like high tech equipment.
Require skills to use the stuff. Not as in make a UMD check, but needing a certain level of relevant knowledge skills to use them.
I think that common stuff that most everybody has should not require the Knowledge skill, but I am willing to require it for more complicated devices that require special training.