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You're problem is your stat array! In my day, we didn't have this "point buy" nonsense! You rolled 3d6, in order. What you rolled is what you played with. If we rolled a 14, we were happy! Each class had a minumum ability score!And red dragons had 88 hit-points. Smart players always had their characters fight with daggers so they would always go first.
If you rolled good enough to play a Paladin, we threw you a party!
Good times...[/grognard]
(Noting all the "Favorites" marked.)
Yeah; and then when said paladin rolled 2s three times in a row for HP advancement, you threw one of those "Oh When the Saints Go Marching In" parties on the way to the mausoleum with his casket.
<insert jerkit smiley here>
I like playing PFS, where at least I know my guy isn't going to be stuck with 9s and 11s in most of his stats while somebody else "naturally" rolled a ton of 17s. (Nothing screeches serious boredom dead-ahead than to be seated next to a machine whose stats you couldn't match with twenty levels of advancement and a half-dozen +6 items.)
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A level 1 fighter with 18 strength can easily pull off a +4 will save with a combination of Iron Will, a will save trait, and a 12 wisdom score. Most wizards will not have that high a will save at level 1.18 in strength means saves are lacking... they will be sorry once you throw a few wizards at them. and dont pull punches, let them flounder and then make reference to balancing out their characters.
a wizard with a +3 modifier will have a 14 for a level 1 save.
so you basically have a .... 50/50 chance of not getting killed? i dont see how that post disproved anything i stated.anyway all im saying is that a player who sacrifices so many potential skill points for something as arbitrary as a +1 modifier to a stat, will be lacking in many areas as a result. that's where you hit them as a dm. fighter with a bad cha and int has to role play that character in my games, lol... not much fun for them when they are not stomping npc's in combat.
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(Spending 17 of your 20 build points on one STR is really a very reckless and almost inevitably counter-productive idea save in specific circumstances, such as dwarf barbarian.)Does anyone actually DO that? I just buy the 16 and add racial bonuses.
I have two PFS characters with a 19r/14/12/12/12/07 stat array (neither with the primary in strength).
==//==
STR:16 ... dwarf
DEX:07
CON+20 (all bumps)
INT:07
WIS+16
CHA-05
01 barb1 ... Raging Vitality
02 barb2 ... Brawler
03 barb3 ... Steel Soul
Saving throws at 3rd versus magic while raging: Fort +15, Ref +3, Will +10.
Hit points at 3rd while raging: 50; amount of damage-taken needed to actually kill at 3rd: 76.
Concept: accumulate hitpoints faster than level-equivalent opponents can dish out pain.
Role-playing: he's slightly more offensive and clumsy than the average dwarf. But not that he cares what you think. You or your pet dragon. Are you human royalty? Would you like a social skill-check? Pbbbsst. <bronx cheer>
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I have characters with 17s bought and racially raised to 19s.
The build above your post is not an actual character, but a demonstration that it is possible, in certain circumstances, to build a solid character with a maximized score, with weaknesses shunted into areas you don't care about. I.e., the character above wouldn't wear armor with the expectation that it would ward off blows, but merely as a vehicle upon which to hang Fortification enhancements.
(I actually know someone playing a human wizard with an 18 CON, 20 INT, and three 7s and an 8 in the other stats. It is simultaneously totally absurd and remarkably effective.)
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Well, think about it: what does he need?
He casts False Life, and immediately has more hitpoints than anyone except a raging barbarian. Invisibility, and he no longer cares about armor-class or will-save. Area-effect or Summon, and he doesn't care about ranged-attack bonus. Throw in a feat or ability here or there which lets INT do double-duty, and he's set.
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Hah, wizards are terrible. If they're any good at their jobs, then a deity will always reach out and squish them so they're not a threat. You never see commoners being squished by deities. We should all be playing commoners!
My favorite *forward thinking min/maxing* was the guy who classed straight fighter and dumped all his physical stats. I'm talking about sevens here lol. He maxed out his mental scores evenly. Apparently, he was planning on getting the party druid to reincarnate him once they got up to that level.
Talk about useless... :p
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A level 1 fighter with 18 strength can easily pull off a +4 will save with a combination of Iron Will, a will save trait, and a 12 wisdom score. Most wizards will not have that high a will save at level 1.18 in strength means saves are lacking... they will be sorry once you throw a few wizards at them. and dont pull punches, let them flounder and then make reference to balancing out their characters.
a wizard with a +3 modifier will have a 14 for a level 1 save.
so you basically have a .... 50/50 chance of not getting killed? i dont see how that post disproved anything i stated.anyway all im saying is that a player who sacrifices so many potential skill points for something as arbitrary as a +1 modifier to a stat, will be lacking in many areas as a result. that's where you hit them as a dm. fighter with a bad cha and int has to role play that character in my games, lol... not much fun for them when they are not stomping npc's in combat.
Please keep your goalpost in one spot. What's a good set of saves for a melee character to possess? What are your wizard's saves?
How much charisma should a fighter have? Is three skill points per level not enough?
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Low Cha characters are a lot of fun to play. I play my 7 Cha guy as an Eor-depressed type, but his words are compelling (trait for diplomacy, max ranks has gotten him up to + 7 @ 5th level).
Low Int characters are fun too; I play my Iomedean cleric as a zealot that doesn't really understand anything more than "his religion is right". I guess most religious zealots tend towards 7 int.
And 7 Wis is most fun of all; gives you an excuse to play with reckless abandon, makes the game much faster. And often "just open the door" or "charge in" is the right course of action anyway.
man, I totally had a different question in mind for this thread. I was hoping the OP was bemoaning the fact that all 1st level characters have a maxed out stat, and would then be fishing for someway to fix this.
but to the actual problem, I wouldn't worry about them, I run a 18 modifier point buy game, meaning the players assign 18 points of stat modifiers, then figure out stat scores, and I've never had a problem challenging my group, but then I run homebrew scenarios, so mileage may vary, but +2 to +3 better on a roll on average seems far from game-breaking.
Now, I had thought of an alternative point buy system, maybe 25, but you figure out when the players will reach that level, then back them down to say 15 points at 1st level and then add back those points in even increments. So you fighter may start with a 15 str, but by 10th he's got his 18+ and so on...
Yeah, but the point was, no one buys an 18, they buy a 16 and make it an 18 with racial bonuses. (Well, except maybe single stat casters, buying an 18 and making it a 20.) I mean, you didn't buy an 18 Con when when you started that character, did you?
I did 20 starting STR on a character once, but he was half of an engineered duo built with his partner covering the many shortcomings resulting from all those eggs in one basket in mind.
That's right, min/maxing at the team level.
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Str: 20
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Dex: 12
Con: 15
Chr: 7Good, min-Maxed fighty type wearing full plate. If you want a pure damage character, 20 Str is viable, and you can let others do the talking. I prefer high-int trippy types with 18 Str, but if I built for damage this guy would be the go-to.
If there is ever a point at which this character goes CON:15>16 with a bump, then he was better off starting with STR:19, CON:16, and having a spare build point for elsewhere.
Could always try handing out an array to distribute. Something like 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10 could work.
You know that with this array a player can have a 18 right?
Most of the time if I am making a class that really only needs 3 ability scores raised above 10 then I get 16 14 14 10 10 10
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Eh, I'd 8 the Cha and keep the Con 14; your point is valid, but the 20 is going to be most important 1-4, and I want that 22 at 8. But usually I do the 16/14/14/12/12/7 as the person above stated; I've generally found it the most efficient array, and rarely do I actually want to dump 2 stats (the gain of turning the 12 to a 7 can often be felt; usually Str, Int, or Chr can be dumped without too much effect on the character).
And 7 Wis is most fun of all; gives you an excuse to play with reckless abandon, makes the game much faster. And often "just open the door" or "charge in" is the right course of action anyway.
YMMV. Failing will saves usually means you lose control of your character. If your DM never uses such spells/abilities, low Wis could be fun. If he does use 'em, well.
Wis is the one stat I never dump. I don't really want a penalty to perception or surivival or sense motive. Oh yeah and will save spell that will really make your team angry if you fail them like murderous command are easy to cast.
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Well, skill based Pallies can justify it, as can half-elves with the +2 will alt. But no, of the 4 dumpable stats, I'd rate Chr, then Int (especially with the human "cheat"), then Str all more easily dumpable by classes that don't rely on them. Wis is always good for will, and Dex and Con are very rarely dumpable.
But it is the highest comedy value dump stat :).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Wis is the one stat I never dump. I don't really want a penalty to perception or surivival or sense motive. Oh yeah and will save spell that will really make your team angry if you fail them like murderous command are easy to cast.
Personally, I don't like to dump anything except CHA, because I would find it a lot harder to role-play another dump stat. There are lots of ways to roleplay a low CHA, but I don't like having to "play dumb" due to having dumped INT or WIS.
I guess roleplaying a physical dump stat might not be too bad, though I haven't tried it yet.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wis is the one stat I never dump. I don't really want a penalty to perception or surivival or sense motive. Oh yeah and will save spell that will really make your team angry if you fail them like murderous command are easy to cast.Personally, I don't like to dump anything except CHA, because I would find it a lot harder to role-play another dump stat. There are lots of ways to roleplay a low CHA, but I don't like having to "play dumb" due to having dumped INT or WIS.
I guess roleplaying a physical dump stat might not be too bad, though I haven't tried it yet.
Funny, I'll take a Wisdom of 8 for my half elf strong will save types. The racial bonus helps with perception, and I don't worry about survival so much.
Of course that I have a wisdom of 8 has no bearing on it... ;-)
Half Elf Magus with 13,14,12,16(14+2),8,12 for a 15 point buy is fine by me. Heck a Wizard who drops the str to 11 and raises the int to 15(+2) is good to start.
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But he dropped two points into CON (14>15) for zero gain.
(This is why 19s work a lot better long-term. E.g., 19/14/12/12/12/07 -- with a 12 in INT and bumping STR at 4th, you have +3 skill points per level and the same strength at 50% of levels.)
Yeah, but for 50% levels, you'd be down a point of strength :p
And if he's trying to max out strength... See what I mean?
I agree you get more point mileage by knocking it down to 19, and that oftentimes it's a better choice than going for a 20. But you get the MOST point mileage by evening out scores as much as possible. So the real question is whether he wants a maxed out str score, or whether a reduced value is acceptable to him, and then how much strength he's willing to sacrifice for increased utility elsewhere.
Sort of the difference between character idea "I want to be the strongest guy ever!" versus "I want to be a strong guy."
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But he dropped two points into CON (14>15) for zero gain.
(This is why 19s work a lot better long-term. E.g., 19/14/12/12/12/07 -- with a 12 in INT and bumping STR at 4th, you have +3 skill points per level and the same strength at 50% of levels.)
Yeah, but for 50% levels, you'd be down a point of strength :p
And if he's trying to max out strength... See what I mean?
You're not really, really, really, REALLY trying to maximize strength unless you're some kind of barbarian/alchemist monster with a score at or over 30 by 5th (or whenever you buy your Belt +2).
-- If you're not doing that, a starting 20 is a sheer waste of build points.
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You're not really, really, really, REALLY trying to maximize strength unless you're some kind of barbarian/alchemist monster with a score at or over 30 by 5th (or whenever you buy your Belt +2).
-- If you're not doing that, a starting 20 is a sheer waste of build points.
You're trying to argue min/max against a character theme?
Fine :D I counter with "You'd still be pumping strength to max if you were trying to make the strongest straight fighter-classed character you could."
Besides, if you're trying to max out strength, then his strength will start at 20, even if he ends up taking alchemist, barbarian, and cleric/druid/whatever-class-for-str-boosting-spells to stack all the benefits :p
On a side note, morlock is a pretty awesome creature to play, if your dm allows you. It costs you one class level as per the monstrous character rules in the core rulebook, grants you two feats, +3 bab, immunity to disease and poison, +6 dex, +4 con, +4 str and +2 wis (or +4 wis and +2 str), -4 int, -2 cha, and has a natural spider climb ability and a jumping spring attack ability. Oh, and it comes with 1d6 sneak attack, 120 ft darkvision, scent, and 3d10 hp.
Only drawbacks are light blindness, and that's not too difficult to deal with, and the int penalty, which just means a particular type of build or a handful of points to offset the penalty.
Oh get the Ebon Eyes spellblight! Light is darkness and darkness is light for you! You'll end up with the same vision as a human!
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Not sure why 18 in a stat is considered a big deal. With 20 point buy I expect any player to have an 18 (or at least a 17). As for it being silly that everyone you mean has an awesome stat, well, most quests involve you being 'hand picked' for a task. PFS is doing quests for the Pathfinders and they don't drag you into a room to say 'I have picked you for this mission because I noticed you seem distinctly average at things'.
The point of having 4-6 players is that each can have weaknesses because as a team things should be covered.
As a general rule I don't have more than one dump stat, I draw the line at two sets of 7 stats, it's just too cheesy for me. But that is personal preference.
When 20 points allows you 18, 12, 12, 10, 7, 16 or 18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 7 or without a dump stat: 18, 12, 14, 13, 10, 10 then of course everyone will have 18 ecept MAD classes