Hello all.
I'm a session into running Carrion Crown and I've got a question about how to handle the Research aspect of the game.
If a Player Character uses his free knowledge check and succeeds at a DC25 for any of the Research Topics, does he immediately get the information from the lower DCs as well (IE DC 10, 15 and 20)? If so does the Player Character also get the experience points for those lower DCs in addition to the experience reward for the DC25?
Thanks for your time.
I would say yes. Sometimes the higher checks imply knowledge from the lower checks. I'd give all the XP listed too.
Yes. The idea is the player who makes the check knows (or finds out) all the information up to and including his highest successful result.
Haunting of Harrowstone, pg. 15 wrote: Research: Using a Knowledge check to research a topic allows the PCs two options-simply making the check to see what a character knows about the topic (this is a free action, but can only be attempted once per character) The wording here, specifically "researching a topic" implies that the Player Character gains one free check per Research Topic (three checks, one for each of the three topics).
If a Player Character can reliably earn that DC 25 he's gained 1800 experience and gained all background information, minus four of the five prisoners (each requires a separate check). The Player Character has furthermore negated two DC25 Diplomacy checks or three Trust tests as research sites are now completely unneeded in the game.
Given four additional days the Player Character can gain the remaining 1600 experience.
Within five minutes of real-time and three checks the Player Character has accumulated more experience than any encounter, sans the Splatterman, in the entire book. Not only this, the Player Character is intimately familiar with the workings of the Whispering Way, the tragedy of Harrowstone and one of the five prisoners.
That seems to be either poor game design, or not what the designer intended at all. So with that in mind, let me ask you my question again.
paranoiasavedthecat wrote:
Within five minutes of real-time and three checks the Player Character has accumulated more experience than any encounter, sans the Splatterman, in the entire book. Not only this, the Player Character is intimately familiar with the workings of the Whispering Way, the tragedy of Harrowstone and one of the five prisoners.
That seems to be either poor game design, or not what the designer intended at all. So with that in mind, let me ask you my question again.
I understand what you are saying but the answer to your original questions remains yes, IMHO.
I think it is unlikely a 1st level character would have enough skills to make a DC25 Knowledge check in multiple topics at first level though. So some adventuring and research will still be required. If you figure the most ranks he can have is 1, in a class skill, with a high ability (18) he would only be getting a +9 which would still require a pretty good roll of 16+ to get the 25 in the first five minutes of the game.
Even if a PC could make these rolls it will still require a good bit of adventuring and interacting with the locals to even hear about any of the research topics in order to get the free roll. In my campaign quite a few encounters occurred before the professors will was read so the PCs never even heard of the WW (for instance) to even try the check until after the will was read.
cibet44 wrote: I understand what you are saying but the answer to your original questions remains yes, IMHO.
I think it is unlikely a 1st level character would have enough skills to make a DC25 Knowledge check in multiple topics at first level though. So some adventuring and research will still be required. If you figure the most ranks he can have is 1, in a class skill, with a high ability (18) he would only be getting a +9 which would still require a pretty good roll of 16+ to get the 25 in the first five minutes of the game.
Not only is it possible, it just happened in the game I am running. Henceforth why I questioned the ruling on this. Five minutes, three checks and I was looking up at having to divide 1800 experience between my players.
cibet44 wrote: Even if a PC could make these rolls it will still require a good bit of adventuring and interacting with the locals to even hear about any of the research topics in order to get the free roll. In my campaign quite a few encounters occurred before the professors will was read so the PCs never even heard of the WW (for instance) to even try the check until after the will was read. That's the problem. In black and white on page 15 under Research it says "simply making the check to see what the character knows about the topic (this is a free action, but can be attempted no more than once per character)"
If we're going to get RAW with the situation, then no. No interaction, no adventuring, nothing is required to make these checks.
That's the other reason I called the rules into question.
You obviously don't like the insterpretation of the the situation. Change it. You're the GM. Without sounding like too much of jerk, what is your problem?
paranoiasavedthecat wrote:
If we're going to get RAW with the situation, then no. No interaction, no adventuring, nothing is required to make these checks.
That's the other reason I called the rules into question.
I agree with Fraust (without the unnecessary "what's your problem"). The rules are just a guideline and outline for the story, and it is our job as GMs to make it make sense. I did not give my PCs ANY "free" knowledge rolls because none had a background that would provide them any knowledge of Harrowstone or the prisoners (maybe the WW, but it didn't come up). In your case, since you allowed the roll, I would have given the player a significant piece of info as a random bit of trivia the PC picked up, but made it clear the PC was going to need to spend the time to get the additional information (even if you decided to give the PC the info without making the PC roll more while doing the research).
Frankly, the module throws in a few too many rules vis-a-vis Ravengro (trust rules, etc.) that get in the way of roleplaying. As a GM, you are empowered to ignore/ re-write at will.
Faust wrote: You obviously don't like the insterpretation of the the situation. Change it. You're the GM. Without sounding like too much of jerk, what is your problem? Saying "without sounding like" just acknowledges you're being a jerk.
I believe I never mentioned how I resolved the issue when I ran. Your ignorant attack has no basis and you would have saved both myself and Voomer time by not posting.
Voomer wrote: The rules are just a guideline and outline for the story, and it is our job as GMs to make it make sense.
Frankly, the module throws in a few too many rules vis-a-vis Ravengro (trust rules, etc.) that get in the way of roleplaying. As a GM, you are empowered to ignore/ re-write at will.
Since the player could make knowledge checks with impunity I borrowed a rule from the Five Prisoners and had him research each point independently. This at least paced the game a bit closer to what I wanted and Research Topics such as the Whispering Way gave a few tidbits at lower DCs that the DC25 didn't include (DC20 mentions how they whisper their messages and don't write things down). Which I was able to use to create an ad-hoc sense of mystery out of that scenario.
Questioning how I ran it isn't the point of this. The point was to find out if there was something I was missing out of the campaign module, which apparently I am not. The accepted ruling is that the experience rewards and lower DCs are given when the highest DC is achieved.
This just means I'm going to have to retool the entire minigame because the game worked how I feared it did.
And just to play devil's advocate: we play games that use predetermined rules as a basis for a reason. We expect the rules to work, and when you spend twenty-dollars on a module (and possibly a total of one-hundred an twenty) you expect the rules written within to be usable. When they break down so quickly and so completely, you have to question the integrity of the product line.
I don't want to buy a module, which has the sole purpose of making running games easier on me just to turn around and rework half the contained material.
paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Questioning how I ran it isn't the point of this. The point was to find out if there was something I was missing out of the campaign module, which apparently I am not. The accepted ruling is that the experience rewards and lower DCs are given when the highest DC is achieved.
This just means I'm going to have to retool the entire minigame because the game worked how I feared it did.
And just to play devil's advocate: we play games that use predetermined rules as a basis for a reason. We expect the rules to work, and when you spend twenty-dollars on a module (and possibly a total of one-hundred an twenty) you expect the rules written within to be usable. When they break down so quickly and so completely, you have to question the integrity of the product line.
I don't want to buy a module, which has the sole purpose of making running games easier on me just to turn around and rework half the contained material.
Whoa there Paranoia! First of all NO pre-written module can take into account your group dynamic and character builds. Secondly even though the designers do the heavy lifting, a GM still has to read, understand, and most of all, if necessary, tweak said module for his players.
That being said, your best resource on what problems to look out for is absolutely this messageboard.
As a GM who's run the module I HIGHLY recommend you not give out everything all at once for either the one time blind PC knowledge checks or even the research checks! Part of the fun of this module is that you really should mix up the slowly rising tension of the town being infiltrated by the spirits of the prison with forays into the big spooky dungeon on the hill. A lot of the clues point a gigantic neon sign to the prison. Use the random encounters from the bestiary liberally and bne sure to have Haunts respawn and move, like the cold spot and slamming portals.
You should play up the NPC interactions of Kendra, Zokar Elkarid, his son Pevrin, and Councilman Gharen Muricar. Those 4 NPCs are the most likely to welcome strangers in town. The Moneylenders and Sheriff Caeller are the next most likely to at least be indifferent to outsiders because they do business and are supposed to deal with outsiders! Find opportunities to build Trust even if you don't uses the system point for point. By doing this you'll give the PC's reasons to care about the odd events in town. Use those Optional events! Use the Rising Dead event ALOT to keep the PC's concerned about just leaving the twon to camp up at the prison.
Now I'm not using the XP as written. The budget is far too tightly written and if you don't gain the requisite trust points or miss research DC's you lose out. Either is easy enough to do with monstrous PC's like Orcs or Dhampir in the group or by not having PC's with the right Knowledge skills maxed out.
There was no attack in what I said. I asked a question, what is your problem? Which you answered when you responded to Voomer.
Vrock has a point, the module isn't there to foresee your groups special needs. From what you're describing, you let someone make knowledge rolls with no conceivable reason for them to have information, and they made three very high rolls. This is what is called a "corner case". That isn't a problem with the developers, it's a fluke of the dice coupled with a lapse of judgment.
Fraust wrote: From what you're describing, you let someone make knowledge rolls with no conceivable reason for them to have information Yes. That's it exactly. Because when a book says, "Have a player roll this check to see what he knows" I don't do that. I mean, if we did what the books told us to do then we might be playing a game that follows a set of rules like AC, attack rolls and knowledge skill checks that are specifically called for in an adventure module. Why follow the rules and story in the book I purchased? I'll just do something completely not in the material. That makes sense.
King of Vrock wrote: Whoa there Paranoia! First of all NO pre-written module can take into account your group dynamic and character builds. Secondly even though the designers do the heavy lifting, a GM still has to read, understand, and most of all, if necessary, tweak said module for his players.
That being said, your best resource on what problems to look out for is absolutely this messageboard.
As a GM who's run the module I HIGHLY recommend you not give out everything all at once for either the one time blind PC knowledge checks or even the research checks!
Nor did I. As I made mention to Voomer I ad-hoc'd a ruling and gave out bits of information and tried to play up the mystery. I do appreciate your suggestions, but I've beaten ya to the punch. ;)
And yes, I do agree modules cannot take into account every build, but having a mini-game that broken in a module makes me wonder if it was even playtested. I ran this in a public forum open to any players as a test run for an event and the book didn't hold up to a single session worth of play. How much faith do I put in its subsequent issues? If, as per your suggestion, I'm having to use the message board to get reviews of the adventure paths before I purchase them... that's not a very inspiring vote of confidence in those modules. Tweaking is fine, yes. Rewriting whole sections of the material is most definitely not.
As stated before I'll have to rework the Topic Research mini-game to avoid this happening in the future. Limit what DCs of information can be attained from a Player's free check, limit them to a single free check, make research areas a requirement instead of or in addition to the granted bonuses...
And I haven't even gotten to using the trust system yet. Although, taking your advice, I've read on the forums... and I don't hear kind words about it either.
@OP.
Statistically this happens. It's not a fault of the module. It's not a fault of you. Nor your players. Nor the stars, nor the harrow deck, nor the feng shui of your gaming table.
It happens.
Get a big enough number of people and one group will roll all 20s while another group rolls all 1s. Your players got lucky. That's it.
Personally I'd accept it, give them the XP, and move on. Because there's always the boss battle where they won't be able to roll above a 4.
The module and the CR system itself are based on the assumption that your players roll 10s on average. Over their lifetimes statistics says they will. The game designers bank on this when deciding DC25 is "really hard" for 1st level characters. Your players just rolled really well today. And tomorrow they'll all roll ass.
Them's the dice.
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Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
Gonna have to agree with the OP. I have been running Kingmaker for over a month. It has a good story and some really great ideas but I get the idea it was never playtested. I am having to rewrite many things to make the module playable and make some sort of sense.
I havn't read through Carrion Crown yet but I can tell you that 1st levels PCs can and will make DC25 knowledge checks. But that isn't the real problem from what I can tell. The real problem is that the designers decided that anyone with a rank in history can make a roll to learn details they couldn't possibly know without research. This really screams to me that no playtesting was done, or that a rank in knowledge skills gives characters psychic powers in Carrion Crown.
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paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
I think +15 to knowledge at first level is your main problem. Best I can see.. 20 int, 1 rank, 3 trained, skill focus, +1 trait. That's the absolute best I can imagine, still comes out to only +13.
FireclawDrake wrote:
I think +15 to knowledge at first level is your main problem. Best I can see.. 20 int, 1 rank, 3 trained, skill focus, +1 trait. That's the absolute best I can imagine, still comes out to only +13.
Aid another adds +2 and depending where you do the research there is also another in module bonus for favourable circumstances/tools.
Your average mage with 18 Int and 1 rank with no focus, trait bonus or skill focus can still manage a +12 with the above two mods.
FireclawDrake wrote: paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
I think +15 to knowledge at first level is your main problem. Best I can see.. 20 int, 1 rank, 3 trained, skill focus, +1 trait. That's the absolute best I can imagine, still comes out to only +13. So a diviner with the guidance spell preped could barely pull it off, and if I remember right an oracle of lore has some powerful knowledge based abilites. Also, arn't there some pathfinder books you can buy to get a +2 bonus?
Anyways, if you were just stuck with a +13 you only need to roll a 12 if you decided not to take 20. I am making a monk for an upcomming Carrion Crown game. He only has a +6 to his knowledge history check. So ya, I do have to roll a 19 or 20 to get that DC 25, but for getting 1800 exp and solving the game in 5mins its not that bad. Surely someone in my group will have a character with an even better chance, and only one of us has to make that roll. That is an aweful lot of experience and knowledge just from a die roll.
What is really surprising is that flaws like these are not obvious to game designers, even without playtesting. PLNRwLdspe DURDUR!
Aftershock567 wrote: FireclawDrake wrote: paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
I think +15 to knowledge at first level is your main problem. Best I can see.. 20 int, 1 rank, 3 trained, skill focus, +1 trait. That's the absolute best I can imagine, still comes out to only +13. So a diviner with the guidance spell preped could barely pull it off, and if I remember right an oracle of lore has some powerful knowledge based abilites. Also, arn't there some pathfinder books you can buy to get a +2 bonus?
Anyways, if you were just stuck with a +13 you only need to roll a 12 if you decided not to take 20. I am making a monk for an upcomming Carrion Crown game. He only has a +6 to his knowledge history check. So ya, I do have to roll a 19 or 20 to get that DC 25, but for getting 1800 exp and solving the game in 5mins its not that bad. Surely someone in my group will have a character with an even better chance, and only one of us has to make that roll. That is an aweful lot of experience and knowledge just from a die roll.
What is really surprising is that flaws like these are not obvious to game designers, even without playtesting. PLNRwLdspe DURDUR! Again, Aid Another gives that Monk +2 and say doing research on the WW in the Professors Library (for example) is another +2.
+10 for a Monk is pretty darn good for a knowledge roll and a 15+ on the roll isnt out of the question.
paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
You can't take 10 on the "free" Knowledge checks. They are not an action, you either know the info or you don't at that moment.
cibet44 wrote: You can't take 10 on the "free" Knowledge checks. They are not an action, you either know the info or you don't at that moment. Right. How do you take 10 on knowledge? Keep standing around until the facts come to you? "I'm sure I heard about Harrowstone prison sometime. I'm just going to go walk around the block ten times and I'm sure it will come to me." And I'd love to hear how the first level player got +15 on knowledge.
But on the whole, I think this focus on a rules mechanic is silly. I am having a TREMENDOUS amount of fun running this module. The story and setting is great. There is just so much to work with. Fixing little rules like knowledge rolls and trust is the easiest thing to do on the fly. If the PC rolls something and the book says to give more info than you want to, then don't give so much. Problem solved. And it sounds like that is what paranoiasavedthecat did, so well played.
The bigger problems in the book are certain mechanics around haunts and little details left unexplained about encounters. That stuff is a little harder to figure out on your own. But, frankly, I would MUCH rather have Paizo put out a ton of awesome product that is 90% there, rather than have them put out half or a quarter as much that is thoroughly play tested to get to 99% perfect.
cibet44 wrote: paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
You can't take 10 on the "free" Knowledge checks. They are not an action, you either know the info or you don't at that moment. page number where this is stated please?
Spacelard wrote: cibet44 wrote: paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Problem was the player was automatically succeeding the checks by taking 10. :p
Luck and probability had nothing to do with it. :3
You can't take 10 on the "free" Knowledge checks. They are not an action, you either know the info or you don't at that moment. page number where this is stated please? You're right, Spacelard. I got mixed up. I was thinking about the taking 20 rules, not the take 10 rules. It is clear you can't take 20 on knowledge skills ("The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place."). I think the take 10 rules as written would probably allow you to take 10 on a knowledge roll, although I don't think I would allow it in my game. I think taking 10 makes sense for physical skills where being cautious and not under pressure allows the PC to guarantee at least an average result. I don't think that makes sense for knowledge rolls. The PC either knows something about it or doesn't.
It struck me as odd asking to take 10 for a knowledge check as well, so I double-checked the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
The header "Taking 10 and Taking 20" under the Acquiring Skills section Pathfinder pg. 86 does not exempt knowledge checks from taking 10.
Then, I checked through the Special of the skills to see if Knowledge skills had an explicit ruling in their entry (such as Use Magic Device's ruling that you cannot take 10 on this check).
I furthermore checked the Paizo website entry for Knowledge checks (in case I had an old printing of the corebook) and also checked the Unofficial FAQ on the Pathfinder SRD.
After all that I checked to see if the "free" knowledge were counted able to be counted as taking 10 and found out that knowledge checks typically do not require an action as stated by their entry.
I checked every available known source, compared it to a skill that explicitly says you cannot take 10 on the check and confirmed, yes, you can take 10 on knowledge checks.
I do like to think I am thorough with my research when presented a problem that falls outside the normal guidelines for the rules.
And as Aftershock567 mentioned there are items, spells, Oracle abilities, etc etc that can push a first level character's knowledge checks above 25.
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I thank all of you who kindly pointed out all the things I could have done wrong or might have forgotten to check (which makes me feel pretty good 'cause I caught all of that while under the stress of running a game).
My imagined ineptitude aside ;) that is not the initial point of the discussion. The discussion was that there is a major, and easily exploitable flaw, in the Carrion Crown rules and what to do about it.
Since we have now confirmed that this is, legally exploitable by characters (Both Wizard diviners, Oracles of Lore, and whatever else we haven't thought of right now) I would ask you all: "How would you solve it?"
As I mentioned before I've had a few initial ideas on it.
1. Limit characters to one free knowledge check, instead of one per subject. This helps keep "dice spam" down to a minimum and allows everyone a fair and equal shot at contributing something.
2. Limit the DC that a "free" knowledge check is able to attain to 20 for Harrowstone and 15 for the Whispering Way. The Harrowstone Fire was a big deal for the surrounding province and the Whispering Way has had thousands of years of history in Ustalav (as noted by CarrionCrown, Rule of Fear, and the Inner Sea Guide if I'm remembering correctly).
This is also the same limit as what can be learned by Gather Information checks. I think that this would encourage players to go out and interact with the town of Ravengro whether to find research sites or to find local rumors.
3. Research sites not only provide a bonus to research, but are also required for Research Topic DCs not covered by the point above as that knowledge isn't commonly available or known.
I think those three addendums are a good starting point (easily integrated into existing rules and help enforce hardcaps into skill checks), but I would ask if there is anything I am overlooking.
Thanks for your time.
Good day, everyone. This is my first post on the Paizo forums. I had found this thread after my Dungeon Master, paranoiasavedthecat, had made mention of asking these forums. I made a Google search for "paranoiasavedthecat" (with quotation marks), and his Paizo profile was the first result.
I am the player who is the source of the issue herein, and I would like to help my Dungeon Master alleviate the rules quandary.
An oracle of Lore with the Focused Trance (Ex) revelation can, a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (so, four times a day for an oracle with Charisma 18), gain a +20 circumstance bonus to a single Intelligence-based skill check. So, even with just Intelligence 10, a single rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill, and a natural 1 on the skill check, DC 25 is instantaneously defeated.
To quote my Dungeon Master during the game:
paranoiasavedthecat: each character gets 1 free knowledge check on a given subject.
paranoiasavedthecat: This free check can be attempted once per character.
paranoiasavedthecat: All other research checks can be made at the rate of 1 per day.
paranoiasavedthecat: Some subjects may require more than one check to gather all the information.
paranoiasavedthecat: The ruins, the Whispering Way, the "Who" in Harrowstone are all topics available for research.
What happened was that I made my free Knowledge check for the Whispering Way, the ruins, and the "Who" in Harrowstone, and beat DC 25 for each. My Dungeon Master then rolled 1d5 for the "Who" and got a natural 5. These were the results that he gave my character, which were a little cut off due to message length:
The Whispering Way (DC 25): "Exact details on the society are difficult to discern, but chief among the Whispering Way's goals are discovering for creating liches and engineering the release of the Whispering Tyrant. Agents often travel to remote sites or areas plagued by notorious haunts or undead menances to perform field research or even to capture unique monsters. Their symbol is a gagged skull, and those who learn too (...) the Way's secrets are often murdered, and their mouths mutilated to prevent their bodies from divulging secrets via Speak with Undead."
The Ruins of Harrowstone (DC 25): "At the time Harrowstone burned, five particularly notorious criminals had recently arrived at the prison. While the commonly held belief is that the tragic fire began accidently afther the riot began, in fact the prisoners had already seized control of the lower dungeon and had been in command of the lower level for several hours before the fire. Warden Hawkran triggered a deadfall to se... (...) ...oting prisoners in the lower level, but in so doing trapped himself and nearly two dozen guards. The prisoners were in the process of escaping when the panicked guards accidently started the fire in a desperate attempt to end the riot."
The "Who" in Harrowstone (DC 25, #5): "The Splatter Man (Hean Feramin). Professor Feramin was a celebrated scholar of Anthroponomastics (the study of personal names and their origins) at the Quartrefaux Archives in Caliphas. Yet an accidental association with a succubus twisted and warped his study, turning it into an obsession. Feramin became obsessed with the power of a name and how he could use it to terrify and control. (...) ...gh, his reputation was ruined, he'd lost his tenure, and he'd developed an uncontrollable obsession with an imaginary link between a person's name and what happens to that name when the person dies. Every few days, he would secretly arrange for his victim to find a letter from her name written in blood, perhaps smeared on a wall or spelled out with carefully arranged entrails. Once he spelled his victim's name, he would come for her, killing her in a gory mess using a complex trap or series of rigged events meant to look like an accident."
Now that I see this thread, I understand why my Dungeon Master did this: to slow down the pace of the acquisition of information, and to ensure that we did not gain an unreasonable amount of XP from just a few Knowledge checks.
My concern is that the way my Dungeon Master handled it was slightly inelegant: He gave the DC 25 results to my character, but not the lower ones. So, my character knows that the whispering way creates liches, captures undead and spirits, engineers the release of the Whispering Tyrant, and kills those who oppose it with mutilated mouths... but not what the cult is. My character knows all about what happened during Harrowstone's prison riot and fire, but not what Harrowstone is.
I suggested that it would make more sense to give basic (DC 10-15) lore first, then move on to advanced information (DC 20-25). That would have been more intuitive, I thought. But then my Dungeon Master explained that he gave advanced information first so that the party's paladin and the party's inquisitor could make Diplomacy checks around town, gathering the DC 10 to 15 results.
Still, there has to be a more elegant solution than this. I find it a bit hard to rationalize how my character figures out the inner workings and goals of the Whispering Way and what happened during the final moments of Harrowstone, but does not know the basic information of what the Whispering Way and Harrowstone. I do not want to blaze through research in just a day and instantaneously level up the entire party either.
Is there any way to solve the problem in a way that makes the information more intuitive to gather?
Colette Brunel wrote: An oracle of Lore with the Focused Trance (Ex) revelation can, a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (so, four times a day for an oracle with Charisma 18), gain a +20 circumstance bonus to a single Intelligence-based skill check. So, even with just Intelligence 10, a single rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill, and a natural 1 on the skill check, DC 25 is instantaneously defeated. I consider this to be a slightly different situation, because essentially it is a magical means of gaining knowledge, and I might be inclined to give the PC something in this instance. Otherwise, unless the PC was from Ustalav, I would not give any free knowledge rolls about Harrowstone.
By the way Colette, stay off the forums!!! Spoilers abound, and most of them are unmarked, and for good reason -- the forums are really for GMs and it is tedious to mark entire comments due to the possibility PCs are nosing around where they really shouldn't be.
There may be some threads marked for PCs, but otherwise the forums really aren't a place for PCs. That's my opinion, at least. My PCs are absolutely barred from the Carrion Crown forums.
[P.S. Of course, do whatever you and your GM want, and your contribution certainly was substantive, but in my opinion the risk of PCs finding out spoilers outweighs any contributions they can make to the discussions...]
"simply making the check to see what the character knows about the topic (this is a free action, but can be attempted no more than once per character)"
infers to me that one cannot use 'aid another' or research tools - it's based solely on recollection of knowledge the person has before this situation which jumps to mind the moment someone says the words 'Splatter Man'... That being said, this also precludes one from taking 10 on a knowledge check in my mind due to the immediacy of the situation - taking 10 is something you can do by, as stated before, taking your time (so as it applies to knowledge, a research check in a library), not to determine if a blue dragon flying straight at you has a lightning breath weapon instead of one that shoots colourful streamers at you...
You can take 10 or 20 on Knowledge checks...there is nothing RAW suggesting you can't but plenty which suggest you can...
In my game if the PC gets the 25 (Take 20, Skills, Aid Other, Circumstance bonus) then...
Day One: You set up the basic materials for your research (you get everything for a DC10 check)
Day Two: You find some more relevant material and focus in on that. Some new information comes to light so you start finding material for that as well (you get everything for a DC15 check)
Day Three: research is going well despite following some dead ends. Focusing in has helped a lot however you find some obscure reference to "insert reference here" which requires further study. (you get everything for a DC20 check)
Day Four: Pouring over fragmented diaries and ancient you finally feel you have pieced together all the relevant information regarding "insert research topic here" (you gain everything for the DC25 check)
That's fine- exactly like I said, taking 10/20 and all those add ons just don't seem like a 'free' action to me. Knowledge is knowledge and as such it makes more sense to me to make the type of 'springs to mind' about obscure info from a remote location like this as something that requires the randomness, also due to the fact that it's a special check I'll rule it my way, and as such avoid the issue OP had
Your resolution also has the effect of taking up some of that 30 day stretch everyone's so worried about :D
Ghastlee wrote:
But when something like this occurs, that's when you justify resolutions like mine to prevent a module's special rules taking away from the reality of the game (admittedly a game with dragons and magic) - basically without any combat encounters, a first level character can get better at swinging his sword by remembering who The Lopper et al were... which I disagree with, and this is why I think outside the box in a case like that. I'd have less of an issue with the XP rewards if they were consistent. In one book the party get 3200xps for succeeding on a DC17 Diplomacy check.....you wouldn't give it to a group of 1st levels so why give it to a group of 10th? Inconsistent...
hah you caught my tangent didya - yeah true I agree it can be PART of the advancement but it shouldn't be able to cover an entire level - scaling up the reward for more xp on an easier skill check is just weird -
Ghastlee wrote: That's fine- exactly like I said, taking 10/20 and all those add ons just don't seem like a 'free' action to me. You do realize that the taking ten rule is specifically for a situation like that? It takes no additional time and no special actions. Why wouldn't it be applicable?
Since a "free" check was never defined taking twenty would be more arguable but again also permitted by RAW.
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Here is how I rule Knowledge checks and the accompanying rule support. Of course this is all subjective...
PRD on Knowledge checks:
Action: Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
PRD on Take 20:
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right
Based on the above and bolded I think it is pretty clear that the initial Knowledge checks are not eligible for taking 20 since you can't try them multiple times as required by take 20.
As far as Taking 10 on the initial knowledge check it seems RAW as that is allowed since it does not require a long period of time or a retry. The same goes for taking 10 while doing a full day of research in a Ravengro location (after a full day).
Doing research in a Ravengro location, free from distractions or danger, I rule as legal for taking a 20. However since taking 20 "takes 20 times as long as making a single check (PRD)" and since the single check for research in Ravengro takes "spending a day looking through references, books, and other materials (HoH)" taking 20 while doing research would take 20 days in any of the Ravengro locations.
Summary:
Take 10 on initial free check: yes
Take 10 on research after 1 day: yes
Take 20 on initial free check: no
Take 20 on research after 20 days: yes
cibet44 wrote:
Doing research in a Ravengro location, free from distractions or danger, I rule as legal for taking a 20. However since taking 20 "takes 20 times as long as making a single check (PRD)" and since the single check for research in Ravengro takes "spending a day looking through references, books, and other materials (HoH)" taking 20 while doing research would take 20 days in any of the Ravengro locations.
Unless the author assumed T20 would take a day...
cibet44 wrote:
Summary:
Take 10 on initial free check: yes
Take 10 on research after 1 day: yes
Take 20 on initial free check: no
Take 20 on research after 20 days: yes
I totally agree with your analysis of the RAW. Vis-a-vis taking 20, I agree with your RAW ruling of 20 days, since researching for a full day is the precondition for getting an opportunity to re-roll and taking twenty presupposes at least 20 re-rolls (so you can eventually roll a 20). Personally, I would not allow the PCs to take 10 on the free check, but I would allow them to take 10 if they spent the day researching. Not based on RAW, but based on what I think makes sense for knowledge checks in the context of this module.
Voomer wrote: cibet44 wrote:
Summary:
Take 10 on initial free check: yes
Take 10 on research after 1 day: yes
Take 20 on initial free check: no
Take 20 on research after 20 days: yes
I totally agree with your analysis of the RAW. Vis-a-vis taking 20, I agree with your RAW ruling of 20 days, since researching for a full day is the precondition for getting an opportunity to re-roll and taking twenty presupposes at least 20 re-rolls (so you can eventually roll a 20). Personally, I would not allow the PCs to take 10 on the free check, but I would allow them to take 10 if they spent the day researching. Not based on RAW, but based on what I think makes sense for knowledge checks in the context of this module. Two issues that I have with allowing people to take 20 on knowledge checks:
1 - Knowledge skills (per the PRD) CANNOT be rerolled, so the "rolling until you hit 20" cannot apply.
2 - The Oracle's Lore Mystery Final Revelation grants the ability to take 20 on Knowledge rolls. If you could already take 20 on knowledge checks, why bother creating an (level 20) ability which specifically allows something that is, by your argument, already allowed?
Taking 20 on Knowledge checks should not be possible (unless you are a level 20 oracle of lore).
Cheezgrater wrote:
2 - The Oracle's Lore Mystery Final Revelation grants the ability to take 20 on Knowledge rolls. If you could already take 20 on knowledge checks, why bother creating an (level 20) ability which specifically allows something that is, by your argument, already allowed?
Taking 20 on Knowledge checks should not be possible (unless you are a level 20 oracle of lore).
I did not know about this ability. I agree that this clearly sets a precedent that one can not take 20 on Knowledge checks as far as Pathfinder RAW goes. Before the Oracle existed I don't know of any other source that spelled this out so I hope this isn't one of those "change existing rules by adding a new rule" things (like Interplanetary Teleport). Either way as the game stands today this seems definitive.
However, maybe the point of this ability is to allow the Oracle to take 20 without spending 20 times as long or failing 19 times along the way?
Cheezgrater wrote:
Two issues that I have with allowing people to take 20 on knowledge checks:
1 - Knowledge skills (per the PRD) CANNOT be rerolled, so the "rolling until you hit 20" cannot apply.
2 - The Oracle's Lore Mystery Final Revelation grants the ability to take 20 on Knowledge rolls. If you could already take 20 on knowledge checks, why bother creating an (level 20) ability which specifically allows something that is, by your argument, already allowed?
Taking 20 on Knowledge checks should not be possible (unless you are a level 20 oracle of lore).
I certainly agree that one cannot take 20 on a standard knowledge check, as I've been arguing all along, for the reason you give in #1. Your point #2 is further confirmation of that.
I did however agree with cibet44's conclusion you could take 20 on research after 20 days. That's because the module specifically states (or at least implies) that you can re-roll your knowledge check after doing a day's research. So the relevant distinction is between, on the one hand, a standard, instantaneous knowledge check based on what you already know -- only an oracle can take 20 on that, and, on the other hand, a research-assisted knowledge check, which is not really addressed in the RAW. Because you can re-roll research-assisted knowledge checks (after researching for another day), it seems reasonable to conclude a PC can take 20, if they really want to say they are spending 20 days doing the research. But they may be better off rolling every day and seeing if the 20 comes up before then (of course, it may not, which is the advantage of being able to take 20).
A little question... I have to balance the XP reward for a 5 players group; for example...
Research topic, DC 10 => 40 XP
- 4 player party: 10 XP for each player
- 5 player party: 8 XP for each player
then to balance all I have to increment the XP of this research topic?
for example, DC 10 => 50 XP then each player gain the estabilished XP reward of 10 XP?
I hope my question is comprehensible... :P
Simon_86 wrote: A little question... I have to balance the XP reward for a 5 players group; for example...
Research topic, DC 10 => 40 XP
- 4 player party: 10 XP for each player
- 5 player party: 8 XP for each player
then to balance all I have to increment the XP of this research topic?
for example, DC 10 => 50 XP then each player gain the estabilished XP reward of 10 XP?
I hope my question is comprehensible... :P
Correct.
I've seen a lot of concern about the players going to Harrowstone too quickly. This really hasn't been a problem with my players.
The professor's journal makes it clear that the professor didn't get enough information and since he ultimately died, the players took this "warning" seriously. They've been researching things and trying to understand what's going on before heading to Harrowstone.
I generally allow 1 knowledge check per day. If the players fail on a knowledge check for a particular subject, they are only allowed to try again if they gain access to new research material.
So far, we're on day 6 and the players have figured out the Whispering Way at DC 25 and only DC 15 for Harrowstone. The haunts and other aspects of the story have kept them pretty busy in town.
Voomer wrote: Cheezgrater wrote:
Two issues that I have with allowing people to take 20 on knowledge checks:
1 - Knowledge skills (per the PRD) CANNOT be rerolled, so the "rolling until you hit 20" cannot apply.
2 - The Oracle's Lore Mystery Final Revelation grants the ability to take 20 on Knowledge rolls. If you could already take 20 on knowledge checks, why bother creating an (level 20) ability which specifically allows something that is, by your argument, already allowed?
Taking 20 on Knowledge checks should not be possible (unless you are a level 20 oracle of lore).
I certainly agree that one cannot take 20 on a standard knowledge check Well, hate to break it to ya but you're both wrong. Thanks to this item, which specifically says you can take 20 on knowledge checks, we know you can.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book- of-the-loremaster
This makes Cibet44's timeline a little bit extreme.
Using the library warrants a full day of study and taking 20 makes that twenty days.
Not using the library means this check is twenty times a standard action, or two minutes.
Thus, it's better to forgo the minor bonuses of the library and simply take two minutes to take twenty on a knowledge check. You wouldn't be able to reroll this, but since you would only need a +5 bonus to get the highest DC on every check, and therefore all the knowledges below this, that doesn't really matter anymore now does it?
paranoiasavedthecat wrote: Voomer wrote: Cheezgrater wrote:
Two issues that I have with allowing people to take 20 on knowledge checks:
1 - Knowledge skills (per the PRD) CANNOT be rerolled, so the "rolling until you hit 20" cannot apply.
2 - The Oracle's Lore Mystery Final Revelation grants the ability to take 20 on Knowledge rolls. If you could already take 20 on knowledge checks, why bother creating an (level 20) ability which specifically allows something that is, by your argument, already allowed?
Taking 20 on Knowledge checks should not be possible (unless you are a level 20 oracle of lore).
I certainly agree that one cannot take 20 on a standard knowledge check Well, hate to break it to ya but you're both wrong. Thanks to this item, which specifically says you can take 20 on knowledge checks, we know you can.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book- of-the-loremaster
This makes Cibet44's timeline a little bit extreme.
Using the library warrants a full day of study and taking 20 makes that twenty days.
Not using the library means this check is twenty times a standard action, or two minutes.
Thus, it's better to forgo the minor bonuses of the library and simply take two minutes to take twenty on a knowledge check. You wouldn't be able to reroll this, but since you would only need a +5 bonus to get the highest DC on every check, and therefore all the knowledges below this, that doesn't really matter anymore now does it? At 15,000gp this magic item won't see the light of day in a 1st to 4th level module so this post is more than a bit disingenuous.
King of Vrock wrote: At 15,000gp this magic item won't see the light of day in a 1st to 4th level module so this post is more than a bit disingenuous. If you had actually read the item's description you would know that it does not allow you to take 20, but only gives you a +5 competence bonus when you do take 10 or 20.
The item that grants the +5 competence bonus would not ever be in this module. The bonus it grants is besides the point, as the description clearly says you are able to take 10 or 20 on knowledge checks.
So yes, you can.
paranoiasavedthecat wrote: If you had actually read the item's description you would know that it does not allow you to take 20, but only gives you a +5 competence bonus when you do take 10 or 20.
The item that grants the +5 competence bonus would not ever be in this module. The bonus it grants is besides the point, as the description clearly says you are able to take 10 or 20 on knowledge checks.
So yes, you can.
Hmm. When I read the description I see:
"Three times each day, a bard can consult it while using the lore master class feature in order to gain a +5 competence bonus when taking 10 or taking 20 on a Knowledge check."
Which seems to confirm for me that you can only take 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check when you use the lore master class feature.
The Loremaster ability is as follows:
"Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action."
So this, along with the Oracle ability (Final Revelation: You gain the ability to take 20 on all Knowledge skill checks.), seems to indicate that without a special ability one can not take 20 on Knowledge checks. Otherwise what would be the point of the Oracle and Bard abilities?
I'm about to run this game soon and this is how I'm going to handle research:
1. I'll determine if any of the time spent with the Professor would bring about one of the research topics. (For instance, if a fighter was his bodyguard while the Professor was traveling, he could have conceivably heard ghost stories about the Prison from the Professor.)
2. The "once-per-character" knowledge check would only be able to recall knowledge DC 10-15. If they have a back story that might work with it, DC 20 would open up for that character, otherwise it would be research-only.
3. All DC 25 knowledge checks require research. Unless the character is a scholar or heavily experienced in the matter, they probably aren't going to know that high of a DC offhand.
Furthermore, you aren't going to find any specific information on the Five Prisoners anywhere except the Ravengro records and the in the records of the towns these Prisoners are from, and it's already clear that "gather information" (ie, word-of-mouth) only gets DC 15 or lower in the very town that experienced it. So being a stranger to Ravengro and most likely NOT from one of the areas where the Five Prisoners were active, it is highly unlikely they would get that information.
Does this make sense? Research is my job as a journalist so I think all of these would be realistic and be able to stagger out the information gathering.
. Each topic is followed by a series of skill check DCs—these checks can either be Diplomacy checks to gather information from the locals or Knowledge checks made while researching the topic. Gathering Information: The citizens of Ravengro enjoy spreading their rumors, but they don’t actually have much useful information about either Harrowstone or the Whispering Way. A Diplomacy check made to gather information about Harrowstone or the Five Prisoners can only reveal results of DC 20 or lower, while checks made to gather information about the Whispering Way are limited to results of DC 15 or lower.
Pages 14-15.
If the citizen's that live in this area can only get a max of 20 or lower on a knowledge check, a PC would have to have a really good backstory why they focused study on this small town and it's prison to get anything greater than it.
As for the Oracle that made such high scores using her Oracle trance...it's a divine dream. Give her images, and symbols and ideas, but award the experience only she figures out what it means. She's getting a divine "dream" not a paper handed to her saying...A carrot is orange and it's a vegetable.
I plan on running it as written in the module, but I predominantly play pbp games. In the pbp games I run, I am constantly making "passive" Knowledge checks behind the screen, so to speak. Since these checks are meant to replicate random information a PC knows without expending any effort to recall it, I do not allow Aid Another or special abilities. Of course, if a player declares they are making a Knowledge skill check, all of their abilities are available to them. That might not be Core Rulebook RAW, but it is what I have found works in my gaming "environment."
As has been mentioned, there is the possibility (however improbable) that the party will roll well enough that they will have 25+ for each of the checks. I am ok with that. All that means is that, in the context of this particular campaign, the PCs were more experienced than originally believed to be.
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