Made a new thread because of this specific question:
If an undead character has no constitution, and all constitution based effects are instead switched over to charisma which then handles constitution and charisma - then isn't there a possibility of builds that min/max by focusing skills, saves, feats, abilities etc that utilise each of these ability scores and then having only to raise charisma to improve both sets?
Say you have skills like bluff and diplomacy - raise your charisma to improve them and hey presto your hit points improve and so does your fort save...
Well, you have to keep in mind that it is not in the intent of the Core rules for the player to ever become undead. Otherwise, sure, maxing Charisma would give you a huge advantage.
It's fair game for an NPC though.
Edit: Ah, didn't see that this was about the new book. I'll have to look it over then; what's the cost for being undead?
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Yes.
It's an existing rule that undead use charisma for HP.
I see no reason to change it just because a certain undead creature is a "player character".
Charisma finally isn't a dumpstat, and people are complaining :p
@mahorfeus: Undead costs 16 RP.
@TOZ/Cheapy: it's not a question of a dumpstat. (i personally think charisma is very useful - all those bluff/ disguise /intimidates). Nor am i really concerned as i'm not a min/maxer. But paizo asked for feedback and this seems "damaged" as a mechanic.
You can improve two differing sets of abilities with one ability score. It's not huge but i feel it is an issue and undead may need some revision...
EDIT: @ lincoln hills: good points. And it does cost 16 Racial Points. Still there may be some advantage when you have 20 ability score points and only five abilities, one of which is doubly effective while your buddies try to stretch 20 points across six abilities.... ;p
Yeah the problem is trying to 'get back up' when you hit zero hit points.
I agree it can be a very powerful ability for say a sorcerer, summoner or bard (perhaps even paladin)... but at the same type it is very expensive and comes with some steep penalties.
IF you want to 'even it out' when assigning racial bonuses you could throw the one of the stat bonuses into Con (which means they won't get it) or possibly require a player of an undead race to 'buy' a Con score of a certain level.
All in all I think it is one of those things that is best resolved at the table by the gm than at the book.
After all it's not like you can sell the con score back for points which your buddy with six scores can do with one (or even two of them).
I thought it was overpowered when it was proposed during the core rules playtest and I said as much (IIRC). Now I don't really like the idea of an undead playable race, unless the whole group is playing undead. However, I agree with Cheapy that the rule shouldn't be changed.
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....and about as socially acceptable as a Cigarette Golem - to name just three disadvantages of undeath - is that you get more value out of raising your Charisma.
Not saying undead are weaker than living creatures, mind you, because Undead is a stronger creature type than Humanoid in almost every way. But neither is it Pure Awesomeness.
Hey! I resent that remark!
Stop the oppression of the Heart Beat Challenged!!
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@mahorfeus: Undead costs 16 RP.
@TOZ/Cheapy: it's not a question of a dumpstat. (i personally think charisma is very useful - all those bluff/ disguise /intimidates). Nor am i really concerned as i'm not a min/maxer. But paizo asked for feedback and this seems "damaged" as a mechanic.You can improve two differing sets of abilities with one ability score. It's not huge but i feel it is an issue and undead may need some revision...
EDIT: @ lincoln hills: good points. And it does cost 16 Racial Points. Still there may be some advantage when you have 20 ability score points and only five abilities, one of which is doubly effective while your buddies try to stretch 20 points across six abilities.... ;p
As far as you getting 20 points but only have to spread it across 5 attributes, you lose the option of getting the points from dropping an attribute from 10 to 0 which also balances out you actually lose a dumpstat so it is even harder to abuse.
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You can improve two differing sets of abilities with one ability score. It's not huge but i feel it is an issue and undead may need some revision...
Monks can improve AC, Will saves, and stunning fist DC's just by bumping Wisdom. Monks are seldom considered overpowered.
@realmwalker: good point. Thx.
@ OamuTheMonk: you make a good point too re: other instance of this sort of thing.
Thx all for thoughts. Now to make my Wightborn Paladin/Monk! Just hope he/she can heal him/herself! ;^p
I can't wait to start seeing people complain about undead Paladins (probably more anti paladins) in game play on both sides, PC and GM. If the anti-paladin wasn't already considered bad, this would make it even worse.
Do undead things keep regeneration? Say we had an undead troll anti-paladin?
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Couple things:
1. Is this thread about a new player/race book? please linkify. Thanks!
2. Adding Cha bonus x HD to hit points: I thought this was a 3.5 rules used in the Age of Worms campaign, and then only for a few select monsters (because it sometimes double their hit points due to their great Cha, such as high HD undead dragons). Has this become a standard PRPG rule for the undead type?
3. I agree with the OP that Charisma has become a bit too good. There are only two STR skills: climb and swim (both useless in-game skills most of the time) I don't even want to count all the Cha-skills and how good a Circlet of Persuasion is.
Couple things:
1. Is this thread about a new player/race book? please linkify. Thanks!
It is thread in Advanced Race Guide playtest section. It has multiple threads so it's hard to linkify.
2. Adding Cha bonus x HD to hit points: I thought this was a 3.5 rules used in the Age of Worms campaign, and then only for a few select monsters (because it sometimes double their hit points due to their great Cha, such as high HD undead dragons). Has this become a standard PRPG rule for the undead type?
Yes. Now Undeads have d8 HD to keep them in line with BAB 3/4 but add Charisma modifier to hp in place of Constitution modifier. It's noted in Undead type description.
3. I agree with the OP that Charisma has become a bit too good. There are only two STR skills: climb and swim (both useless in-game skills most of the time) I don't even want to count all the Cha-skills and how good a Circlet of Persuasion is.
Circlet of persuasion only adds to Charisma-based checks not other Charisma-derived values.
Thanks drejk. Yeah, i'm referring to advanced race playtest Undead concept of no constitution ability and transposing all of constitution's effects to charisma.
I'm not saying charisma is overpowered at all. Some folk see it as a dumpstat. Merely that it becomes more powerful when coupled with constitution effects.
Thought: Negative effects on "charismatution" balance positive effects. Or, "just as something is giveth soeth it can be takeneth away!"
P.s. Can't wait for Round 2 or final guide! The concept rocks, and can only enable more ease of creation....
Do undead things keep regeneration? Say we had an undead troll anti-paladin?
Mrgh....?
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Do undead things keep regeneration? Say we had an undead troll anti-paladin?Mrgh....?
let's think about this
regeneration is the ultimate expression of life... cell replication at its peak
regeneration and death are thus opposed
I would think that regenerating undead beings would make no sense, and this should be reflected in the rules
I've seen undead monsters with fast healing, which is imo a bit of a game balance ability so they don't die too fast, but it screams "regeneration!" to a player fighting the thing anyway...
IMO instead of having fast healing, undead such as vamps should have a higher AC, higher DR to make them harder to hit, and the only way they should recup HPs is by sucking blood from victims (i.e. make the blood sucking ability better, and drop the silly level drain backhanded slap... i never understood that one...)
I think that regenerating undead beings would make no sense, and this should be reflected in the rules
I'd allow cell rebuilding or repair as opposed to cell "healing". It's already "fantastic" for undead to exist and move about. Making the rules reflect flavour is easily done and can make "sense" if you want it to....
As for undead paladins, i'm all for that if the backstory is strong enough to support it...
The difference between regeneration and fast healing is that regeneration can be stopped, but fast healing won't prevent death at -con HP (or 0 HP for constructs/undead). While the rules say regeneration doesn't work on undead creatures, there's no reason a new kind of undead that has a special exception can't be created.
While the rules say regeneration doesn't work on undead creatures, there's no reason a new kind of undead that has a special exception can't be created.
+1
...but sure, there are those who really can't do without their vampire troll half-dragon paladins...
I KNOW! :)
ok, I cast true resurrection. He's now living, whats his con score, a 10? Uh oh....
I don't think its that over powered.Thats why its 16 points and not, say 4. Its really no differentthan someone using 20 points on 5 of their stats or a class that utilizes a stat for multi use. And what happens when/if someone does resurrect this race? its con is 10(?), and goodbye hp and fort save, and anything else con related. (edit)
ok, I cast true resurrection. He's now living, whats his con score?
Whatever it was before he became undead.
@strongblade: just checked true resurrection on the prd/srd
You can't resurrect undead creatures, unless they have been created from a living creature and then destroyed. As for the resulting constitution score, again prd/srd with srd errata in bold
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no negative levels (or loss of Constitution points) and all of the prepared spells possessed by the creature when it died.
From the AR playtest:
Undead (16 RP)
Undead races are once-living creatures animated by
spiritual or supernatural forces.
And:
• Undead are not affected by raise dead and reincarnate
spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection
can affect undead creatures. This spell turns undead
creatures back into the living creatures they were before
becoming undead.
You can't resurrect or raise the unwilling, so it can't be used as an offensive spell on intelligent undead.
From the AR playtest:
Undead (16 RP)
Undead races are once-living creatures animated by
spiritual or supernatural forces.And:
• Undead are not affected by raise dead and reincarnate
spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection
can affect undead creatures. This spell turns undead
creatures back into the living creatures they were before
becoming undead.
Totally overlooked both of those. My bad. Still, the wraith entry seems to disagree with living origins:
wraiths are undead creatures born of evil and darkness.
Wraith-spawn are another matter...though i must admit it's the only undead entry i could find that doesn't have a living origin. And an incorporeal character is a pretty specialised character...
@VoodooMike: good point. Was wondering about that...
It's bad form to misquote things to prove your point.
Wraiths are undead creatures born of evil and darkness. They hate light and living things, as they have lost much of their connection to their former lives.
Oops. My bad. Again. Didn't read that second bit.
@Umbral reaver: i'm not trying to prove a point here at all. If anything i'm merely trying to explore and clarify the rules. My OP was about Charisma, Constitution and Undead. Bad form? IMO I didn't misquote, i quoted verbatim, just not the whole of the part i SHOULD have. Thanks for picking it up though.
You can't resurrect or raise the unwilling, so it can't be used as an offensive spell on intelligent undead.
Unless they have resurrection vulnerability.
You can't resurrect or raise the unwilling, so it can't be used as an offensive spell on intelligent undead.
Can someone show where this specified? Just want clarification...
Unless they have resurrection vulnerability.
Which intelligent undead have resurrection vulnerability? Maybe the designer of that creature needs to familiarize themselves with the CRB?
Can someone show where this specified? Just want clarification...
CRB p208 - Revivification against One's Will
Still there may be some advantage when you have 20 ability score points and only five abilities, one of which is doubly effective while your buddies try to stretch 20 points across six abilities.... ;p
Something to consider is that they have no Con score. This means it can't be "lowered" when doing point buy, and the like.
If you are rolling for stats, I would only let the person roll 5 times, not 6 and dumping the lowest into Con, for example.This really limits what the person can min/max. It'd be like having a 10 in Con that you can't change, but Charisma gives double benefits on a number of Con related things.
Since Charisma isn't really a big factor for most things (you aren't doubling up on saves, there's no Con related skills, etc), about the only problem character is the Paladin.
And an undead Paladin will have it's own issues, I'd suspect. A character that has to be Lawful Good, but pings as evil/negative energy on detect spells. As a DM, I'd be lumping that character in with the "Drizzit" clones, as the most terribly emo character concepts evar. YMMV of course.
Also... lay hands on yourself kills you. And you paladin allies can smite you for insane damage. *shrug* Maybe it'd still be okay, even with the insane Charisma stacking.
about the only problem character is the Paladin.
And an undead Paladin will have it's own issues, I'd suspect. A character that has to be Lawful Good, but pings as evil/negative energy on detect spells. As a DM, I'd be lumping that character in with the "Drizzit" clones, as the most terribly emo character concepts evar. YMMV of course.
Personally, an undead paladin could be really cool and a very interesting concept - though I'd probably let him fall upon becoming a creature so tainted by evil, and then he'd have to work on his redemtion... If the player was interested in playing something like that, that is.
But you forget bards, summoners, and sorcerers. Especially sorcerers since they're so SAD; even on a 15 point buy, you could easily start out with something like Str 7/Dex12/Con-/Int10/Wis10/Cha18 before racial modifiers (possibly dropping int or wis a bit to increase dex), and still have great fortitude and hit points.
Clerics will also gain a boost from being undead, as their channel goes of their secondary attribute instead of a 3rd or 4th priority.
It's very powerful, but at 16 points it might not be overpowered. And, as always, it's in the DM's hand. The ARG won't entitle players to make up their own races anyway they want, and I sure hope the book states this, over and over again. Preferably in big pink letters.
So if a player came up to me with some undead caster-focused race with cha bonuses and wanted to play one of those, I might be okay with it - if he wanted to play a fighter or rogue. If he wanted to play a sorcerer? Well, tough luck.
Still there may be some advantage when you have 20 ability score points and only five abilities, one of which is doubly effective while your buddies try to stretch 20 points across six abilities.... ;pSomething to consider is that they have no Con score. This means it can't be "lowered" when doing point buy, and the like.
If you are rolling for stats, I would only let the person roll 5 times, not 6 and dumping the lowest into Con, for example.
That sounds sensible when rolling, but point buy doesn't work that way. You'd have to lower the actual point buy by 1/6th (which is hard when it's 15/20, but whatever) to get the same result. Certainly possible, but it's not RAW in any way.
That sounds sensible when rolling, but point buy doesn't work that way. You'd have to lower the actual point buy by 1/6th (which is hard when it's 15/20, but whatever) to get the same result. Certainly possible, but it's not RAW in any way.Still there may be some advantage when you have 20 ability score points and only five abilities, one of which is doubly effective while your buddies try to stretch 20 points across six abilities.... ;pSomething to consider is that they have no Con score. This means it can't be "lowered" when doing point buy, and the like.
If you are rolling for stats, I would only let the person roll 5 times, not 6 and dumping the lowest into Con, for example.
you dont have to lower the number of pts just point out that the character has no CON and there for can't dump it for more points.
you dont have to lower the number of pts just point out that the character has no CON and there for can't dump it for more points.
Yes, but that's not the same as rolling 5 dice sets for 5 attributes.
If the average result in the scores is 13 for rolling dice, it will still be 13 if you just roll 5 dice for the 5 attributes.If you've got 20 points to spend on 6 attributes, average will be about 13. If you get to spend it on 5 attributes, average will be about 14 - even if you can't get the four extra points from Con.
A sorcerer usually wants at least Con 14+ and Cha 16+. moving Con bonuses to Cha, he saves at least 5 points to spend in other things.
Something to consider is that they have no Con score. This means it can't be "lowered" when doing point buy, and the like.
If you are rolling for stats, I would only let the person roll 5 times, not 6 and dumping the lowest into Con, for example.
This really limits what the person can min/max. It'd be like having a 10 in Con that you can't change, but Charisma gives double benefits on a number of Con related things.Since Charisma isn't really a big factor for most things (you aren't doubling up on saves, there's no Con related skills, etc), about the only problem character is the Paladin.
Thank you Kaisoku. That helps me understand the ramifications a bit better. I agree with you re: rolling only 5 abilities. They have no constitution.
[EDIT] Although not all undead are evil i think negative energy is a no- brainer. Still i made a few no-brainers on this thread already...;^}
@stringburka- yes, the other Cha classes. I agree.
@stringburka/talonhawke: re: rolling and point buys. I think it does need clarification for both methodS in ARG.
Since all the bonuses of con land in charisma, you could charge twice the normal amount for the point buy in that score.
Since all the bonuses of con land in charisma, you could charge twice the normal amount for the point buy in that score.
If i were to tell you i was making a free hand fighter based around dervish dance and agile manuevers would you charge extra for dex since i am eliminating most of the need for strength?
Probably not, since you could still be STR drained, or have to deal with encumbrance carrying everything.
True just testing the waters on this one i mean your looking at a one level adjustment minium from undead as it stands.
Since all the bonuses of con land in charisma, you could charge twice the normal amount for the point buy in that score.If i were to tell you i was making a free hand fighter based around dervish dance and agile manuevers would you charge extra for dex since i am eliminating most of the need for strength?
Sure, if I can have '-' for strength score, be immune to any negative effects based on strength and use dex to determine all my strength-based attributes such as strength-based skills, encumbrance, melee attack and damage without costing any feats whatsoever to do this.
Sure, if I can have '-' for strength score, be immune to any negative effects based on strength and use dex to determine all my strength-based attributes such as strength-based skills, encumbrance, melee attack and damage without costing any feats whatsoever to do this.Since all the bonuses of con land in charisma, you could charge twice the normal amount for the point buy in that score.If i were to tell you i was making a free hand fighter based around dervish dance and agile manuevers would you charge extra for dex since i am eliminating most of the need for strength?
Gonna cost you a level at the least.