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School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
The last part of the definition says, "though the consequences might be long-lasting". I understand how instantaneous works for spells like Fireball and Cure Light Wounds, I am just unsure on how it would work for Fabricate.
Hit the FAQ button for ya.
Personally, given that the wording of fabricate is different from the wording of minor creation and major creation, I'd be inclined to allow it to work.
In fact, I'm doing exactly that in my campaign right now, as they're using a lyre of building to create a temple building that they'll be using as part of a huge ritual.
Way I see it, creating something whole cloth is different than magically manipulating it without changing it's actual nature.
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If I recall correctly, the 3.0/3.5 rules were far more specific about how Fabricate worked, and making a suit of full plate (or anything with moving parts) was well nigh impossible.
The PF spell says "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
So you aren't going to make masterwork items without significant Craft skill.
The answer is clear in the book, under the description of the spell and the instantaneous description.
"Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting."
"Fabricate: Duration instantaneous"
So you cast fabricate on a chunk of metal, it forms in your new longsword and then the magic is gone. Poof. You made a craft check to make a masterwork longsword, and you can now enchant it.
The magic is gone, so what exactly would prevent it from being enchanted?
Given that some of the Devs have responed to other questions in the time that this one has been up, it looks like you are out of luck.
Can a masterwork item made by Fabricate be enchanted? - Once manufactured it is a normal masterwork item - so yes it can then be worked into a magic item.
Does the effect of not creating a magic item persist if the spell Fabricate was used to make a masterwork item? The Instantaneous efect is the transmutation from lump of metal into masterwork weapon (Or what ever you have created) The spell does the work on the monmangical material and once completed it cannot be undone by a Dispel Magic or Antimagic field. (It can be spotted at being manipulated through magic - see the Knoweldge Arcana or Spellcraft skill)
Can a suit of full plate be created by the spell Fabricate since the armor is made up of cloth, leather, and metal?: Up to the GM, but I would say yes, if you had the skill to make the armour. At worst it would just form the metal components into the correct shape, with the cloth padding added later.
Can a masterwork item made by Fabricate be enchanted? - Once manufactured it is a normal masterwork item - so yes it can then be worked into a magic item.
Does the effect of not creating a magic item persist if the spell Fabricate was used to make a masterwork item? The Instantaneous efect is the transmutation from lump of metal into masterwork weapon (Or what ever you have created) The spell does the work on the monmangical material and once completed it cannot be undone by a Dispel Magic or Antimagic field.
Can a suit of full plate be created by the spell Fabricate since the armor is made up of cloth, leather, and metal?: Up to the GM, but I would say yes, if you had the skill to make the armour.
I agree with everything stated here.
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I agree with everything stated here.Can a masterwork item made by Fabricate be enchanted? - Once manufactured it is a normal masterwork item - so yes it can then be worked into a magic item.
Does the effect of not creating a magic item persist if the spell Fabricate was used to make a masterwork item? The Instantaneous efect is the transmutation from lump of metal into masterwork weapon (Or what ever you have created) The spell does the work on the monmangical material and once completed it cannot be undone by a Dispel Magic or Antimagic field.
Can a suit of full plate be created by the spell Fabricate since the armor is made up of cloth, leather, and metal?: Up to the GM, but I would say yes, if you had the skill to make the armour.
Seconded. Motion carried. Meeting adjourned.
Lots of correct stuff
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To whip the horse which Dave seems to have slain in one blow...
Instantaneous duration means once the spell is cast, there's no actual magic anymore.
For example, Wall of Stone is instantaneous, because the magic shows up, creates a REAL wall of stone, and then goes away, leaving a mundane wall of stone behind.
For another example, Magic Missile is instantaneous, because the magic shows up, causes REAL force damage to the target, and then goes away, leaving genuine, bona-fide damage behind.
So, to follow, Fabricate is instantaneous, because the magic shows up, crafts a REAL item out of the material, and then goes away, leaving a mundane crafted item behind.
It aint rocket surgery. It's reading comprehension at the grade school level.
On a side note...
Knowledge arcana gives a DC for recognizing materials manufactured by magic.
This would indicate some noticeable differences between hand wrought and magic wrought items.
I am however in the camp of fabricate should not be gimped.
On a side note...
Knowledge arcana gives a DC for recognizing materials manufactured by magic.
This would indicate some noticeable differences between hand wrought and magic wrought items.
I am however in the camp of fabricate should not be gimped.
I always translated that to mean there were no sign of tool usage. For example when you twist a piece of metal you use pliers, which leave a mark of some depth depending on the skill of the maker. However a piece of metal twisted by magic has no such mark.
So basically mechanically the sword for example functions the same, but a knowledible person can notice the subtle differences.
....it is the differences that some(not me) might argue give a hand wrought item it's enchant-able quality. Perhaps it's not the quality itself but rather the blood sweat tears toil and labor of love that leave the item suitable for enchantment....
I really think the wording though just meant you can't use fabricate to do the magical crafting part and forego normal enchanting rules(time spent etc.). It was designed merely to forego normal crafting rules. IMHO
Like I said before don't misinterpret the first comment, I think fabricate is fine for step one of the enchantment process. I just think that those who are opposed may have a reasonable argument against it.
I always translated that to mean there were no sign of tool usage. For example when you twist a piece of metal you use pliers, which leave a mark of some depth depending on the skill of the maker. However a piece of metal twisted by magic has no such mark.So basically mechanically the sword for example functions the same, but a knowledible person can notice the subtle differences.
+1 to this.
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....it is the differences that some(not me) might argue give a hand wrought item it's enchant-able quality. Perhaps it's not the quality itself but rather the blod sweat tears toil and labor of love that leave the item suitable for enchantment....
I really think the wording though just meant you can't use fabricate to do the magical crafting part and forego normal enchanting rules(time spent etc.). It was designed merely to forego normal crafting rules. IMHO
Like I said before don't misinterpret the first comment, I think fabricate is fine for step one of the enchantment process. I just think that those who are opposed may have a reasonable argument against it.
Those people (not you) are nit picking and should be ignored. It's like saying it's not enchantable because they used a mold instead of shaping it with a hammer.
As a compromise why not create a mundane item with fabricate then cry on it a little. ;-)
....it is the differences that some(not me) might argue give a hand wrought item it's enchant-able quality. Perhaps it's not the quality itself but rather the blood sweat tears toil and labor of love that leave the item suitable for enchantment....
Such an argument would be an invention pulled from thin air. There's nothing documented to support it, especially in the most relevant sections.
If it were true, than Paizo has the worst game authors in the cosmos, because they're leaving out hugely important pieces of information where it's needed most.Since I believe that Paizo doesn't have bad authors, I therefore have to claim such an argument as "silly".
As a compromise why not create a mundane item with fabricate then cry on it a little. ;-)
Hehehe...
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On a side note...
Knowledge arcana gives a DC for recognizing materials manufactured by magic.
This would indicate some noticeable differences between hand wrought and magic wrought items.
I am however in the camp of fabricate should not be gimped.
In my opinion, both sides have valid viewpoints, but I did not want this thread to turn into a discussion or an argument. I wanted to have a clear understanding of how the spell works from the writer(s) of the spell.
Maybe my reading comprehension is below grade school level :( In any case, would a developer please take a few moments and concretely explain this spell?
The devs don't respond to every single question immediately, and in particular they will likely not respond very quickly to questions that everyone but a small few agree upon.
In this case, the general consensus seems to be that fabricate is perfectly fine for creating manufactured items, even masterwork or special material items, just not magic items, and that said items, once created, can be enchanted.
While it can be seen as ambiguous, most people think it's pretty clear, so it's likely to be pretty low on their FAQ/clarification list, especially given that the wording is different than major/minor creation which specifically forbid such things.
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"If you look at the initial post on the thread, you can see '11 people marked this as FAQ candidate'. This means it is something that should come up on the design and development team's radar as something to address. Hopefully they will be able to get to it soon, however, because of the busy product schedule and deadlines, we cannot make any guarantees about timeframes.
If you have any further questions or concerns, please let me know. Thanks!
Sincerely,
Sara Marie
Customer Service
7120 185th Ave NE Ste 120
Redmond, WA 98052-0577
Phone: (425) 250-0800
Fax: (425) 250-0801
Email: customer.service@paizo.com"
This email was sent to me. I would appreciate anyone clicking FAQ on the top of this thread to see if we can get this moved up in their queue. It may not be very important to the actual game play of most, but it does matter. Please help out guys.
One thing I loved about this company is that they communicate with the community. I hope this subject is addressed sooner than later as it will help me with a few other spells on my radar.
FAQ this to the top please !
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The devs don't respond to every single question immediately, and in particular they will likely not respond very quickly to questions that everyone but a small few agree upon.
In this case, the general consensus seems to be that fabricate is perfectly fine for creating manufactured items, even masterwork or special material items, just not magic items, and that said items, once created, can be enchanted.
While it can be seen as ambiguous, most people think it's pretty clear, so it's likely to be pretty low on their FAQ/clarification list, especially given that the wording is different than major/minor creation which specifically forbid such things.
Major/Minor Creation lasts for a short period of time, in almost all instances the time to enchant one of these items is longer than the time the item is in existence. Also these spells cannot be made permanent with Permanency. I do not follow your logic of comparing Fabricate and Major/Minor Creation.
Please elaborate.
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Look, this isn't law school. The Spell Police will not come and confiscate your game because you used the spell wrong. Is there any particular reason this is so crucial to you?
I'm getting the impression you want an "I told you so" for your GM; that's usually why people are so dogmatic - a GM told them "no" and they want to go back and tell the GM "yes."
minor creation
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate Craft skill check to make a complex item.
Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.
Italics mine.
Effect: You create a nonmagical object. If you try to use it for magic, it'll fail.
fabricate
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
Again, italics mine.
Effect: You craft a nonmagical object. Period. No comments about components or trying to use it for anything.
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Note there is a significant difference between the two. Minor creation (and major creation) create something from nothing. Fabricate just reshuffles what you've already got into something else.
I'd like to help you here, but this all just feels argumentative to me. I'm one of the ones who hit the FAQ button, but I'm starting to rethink doing so; perhaps there's an un-FAQ button :)
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Look, this isn't law school. The Spell Police will not come and confiscate your game because you used the spell wrong. Is there any particular reason this is so crucial to you?
I'm getting the impression you want an "I told you so" for your GM; that's usually why people are so dogmatic - a GM told them "no" and they want to go back and tell the GM "yes."
minor creation
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate Craft skill check to make a complex item.
Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.
Italics mine.
Effect: You create a nonmagical object. If you try to use it for magic, it'll fail.
fabricate
I am not understanding
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
Again, italics mine.
Effect: You craft a nonmagical object. Period. No comments about components or trying to use it for anything.
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Note there is a significant difference between the two. Minor creation (and major creation) create something from nothing. Fabricate just reshuffles what you've already got into something else.
I'd like to help you here, but this all just feels argumentative to me. I'm one of the ones who hit the FAQ button, but I'm starting to rethink doing so; perhaps there's an un-FAQ button :)
Fabricate transforms 10 cubic/ft of metal into a non-magical product.
Major Creation makes 1 cubic/ft of metal for 20 min/level or a rare metal for 1 r/level into a non-magical object.
Both are 5th level spells. So you think a hunk of metal means the same level spell should be able to make a larger item, permanent, and enchantable?
Even different words are used for the end result: object and product.
If you are reading this thread and want to have an answer from a developer, please click FAQ on my original post.
Seems clear as day to me. I don't exactly know where the confusion is. Fabricate is instant. *poof* item exists, so do what you want with it.
It's sophism, aimed to prove a (false) point in another thread, which is (as I type) degrading further and further. Credibility of certain parties is already decaying quickly in the eyes of the boards community, and may already be beyond salvage, for that thread at least.
The high number of FAQ calls makes me blink in disbelief. Is there a "RAQ" button, for Rarely Asked Questions?
The fabricate spell has been the exact same wording (with regards to magic items) since 3.0e (I checked). It literally hasn't changed in over a decade.
I've checked posts regarding the Fabricate spell on multiple boards, dating back to 2002. While there was some question about getting multiple items out of a single casting (you can't, it states "a product", singular), there has never been the question of whether the magic item wording means you can't enchant a masterwork item later.
This has only ever come up now, and only in light of trying to "win" (OP's words) an argument in another thread.
The fabricate spell has been the exact same wording (with regards to magic items) since 3.0e (I checked). It literally hasn't changed in over a decade.
I've checked posts regarding the Fabricate spell on multiple boards, dating back to 2002. While there was some question about getting multiple items out of a single casting (you can't, it states "a product", singular), there has never been the question of whether the magic item wording means you can't enchant a masterwork item later.
This has only ever come up now, and only in light of trying to "win" (OP's words) an argument in another thread.
There's another thread. The plot thickens.
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The fabricate spell has been the exact same wording (with regards to magic items) since 3.0e (I checked). It literally hasn't changed in over a decade.
I've checked posts regarding the Fabricate spell on multiple boards, dating back to 2002. While there was some question about getting multiple items out of a single casting (you can't, it states "a product", singular), there has never been the question of whether the magic item wording means you can't enchant a masterwork item later.
This has only ever come up now, and only in light of trying to "win" (OP's words) an argument in another thread.
I am not posting this to win another thread, I have decided on how I will handle Craft in my game and that is all that matters from my viewpoint. I am not going to post in that thread again as it has deteriorated on both sides.
I would rather not bring the ranting banter from me nor the others to this thread. I honestly just want the developers to explain the intent of this spell.
I will not address further attacks on this thread. I will ignore them.
Though, I will continue to bump this thread in hopes that others actually read the thread and consider that there might be confusion and as such they will click the FAQ button. We are up to 13 people. Please click if you have not yet.
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Look at the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread for a FAQ response: "Not an error." That means that a developer has used the FAQ interface to mark the FAQness of this thread as closed. It doesn't need a developer response because you're reading something into the spell that clearly isn't there.
Repeatedly bumping a thread and calling for others to FAQ it in order to provoke a dev response has the opposite effect of what you intend.
If you can find something in the fabricate spell that says, implies, or suggests that a nonmagical item created with the spell is forever unsuitable for being made magical, I'd like to see it.
Can a masterwork item made by Fabricate be enchanted?
The technical answer is no -- because objects, being mindless, are immune to mind-affecting spells. All spells of the school of Enchantment (both compulsions and charms) are mind-affecting spells. Therefore, the item cannot be enchanted.
As to whether it can be enhanced by magic, or crafted into a magical item -- well, that's a separate question, one which the developers answered with a resounding "yes" (although people can of course choose to houserule differently in their games; I may do so myself).
But if you want the developers to reply with clear game rules language, it helps to phrase your question using correct game rules terminology.
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Can a suit of full plate be created by the spell Fabricate since the armor is made up of cloth, leather, and metal?: Up to the GM, but I would say yes, if you had the skill to make the armour. At worst it would just form the metal components into the correct shape, with the cloth padding added later.
I agree with all of your assertion save this one.
I would require a casting of the spell for each kind of component of the full plate:
- from steel ingots to the metal parts of the armour;
- from leather tot eh leather straps and parts;
- from cloth to the padding.
And then require someone to assemble the differer parts.
I feel that this part of the spell description is fairly crucial: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. "
That mean that you can't produce steel from iron and coal or refine iron from iron bearing ore.
Treating that piece as fluff instead of a hard rule make the spell much more powerful.
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Look at the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread for a FAQ response: "Not an error." That means that a developer has used the FAQ interface to mark the FAQness of this thread as closed. It doesn't need a developer response because you're reading something into the spell that clearly isn't there.
Repeatedly bumping a thread and calling for others to FAQ it in order to provoke a dev response has the opposite effect of what you intend.
If you can find something in the fabricate spell that says, implies, or suggests that a nonmagical item created with the spell is forever unsuitable for being made magical, I'd like to see it.
I do not understand what "the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread" means. There is a way to see if this subject has been closed? For me it says, "You and 12 others marked this as FAQ candidate." Am I looking at the wrong spot on the thread? Am I bugged or did it not update yet?
But this still does not explain: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Apparently it can be magical, but can it be a full plate since full plate takes cloth, leather, and armor?
Sorry Sean, I honestly did not know that I was doing something wrong, and I still do not understand how to tell if the subject was closed.
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Can a masterwork item made by Fabricate be enchanted?The technical answer is no -- because objects, being mindless, are immune to mind-affecting spells. All spells of the school of Enchantment (both compulsions and charms) are mind-affecting spells. Therefore, the item cannot be enchanted.
As to whether it can be enhanced by magic, or crafted into a magical item -- well, that's a separate question, one which the developers answered with a resounding "yes" (although people can of course choose to houserule differently in their games; I may do so myself).
But if you want the developers to reply with clear game rules language, it helps to phrase your question using correct game rules terminology.
Thank you Kirth.
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I do not understand what "the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread" means.
Where it says "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Not an error." That last part means a staff member has clicked something to process the FAQness. I admit that's not obvious, and I'm going to talk to Gary about improving that.
There is a way to see if this subject has been closed?
We normally only close threads if they are abusive or if they're redundant to threads that already exist (such as errata threads). This thread isn't closed--you're able to post replies to it, so it's not closed. :)
But this still does not explain: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Apparently it can be magical,
The spell says it can't create or transmute magical things. You can't cast the spell on a pile of steel and instantaneously create a stack of +1 longswords. But you can create a stack of masterwork longswords, which you hand to someone with the CMAaA feat to craft into magic weapons.
but can it be a full plate since full plate takes cloth, leather, and armor?
The spell says "material of one sort." Cloth, leather, and metal are three different materials. I'm a lenient GM and would probably let you make a suit of full plate out of the component materials, but as written the spell doesn't let you do that.
Everything you've asked about is either answered in the spell description, or answered because there's nothing in the spell description to indicate what you're implying in your interpretation of the spell.
I do not understand what "the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread" means.Where it says "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Not an error." That last part means a staff member has clicked something to process the FAQness. I admit that's not obvious, and I'm going to talk to Gary about improving that.
I don't see that either - is it possible that it's something only Paizo staff sees? I just see the 12 people marked this as a FAQ candidate text, nothing else.
I don't see that either - is it possible that it's something only Paizo staff sees? I just see the 12 people marked this as a FAQ candidate text, nothing else.
Weird -- I see it with no problem: "Not an error."
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I do not understand what "the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread" means.Where it says "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Not an error." That last part means a staff member has clicked something to process the FAQness. I admit that's not obvious, and I'm going to talk to Gary about improving that.
There is a way to see if this subject has been closed?We normally only close threads if they are abusive or if they're redundant to threads that already exist (such as errata threads). This thread isn't closed--you're able to post replies to it, so it's not closed. :)
But this still does not explain: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Apparently it can be magical,The spell says it can't create or transmute magical things. You can't cast the spell on a pile of steel and instantaneously create a stack of +1 longswords. But you can create a stack of masterwork longswords, which you hand to someone with the CMAaA feat to craft into magic weapons.
but can it be a full plate since full plate takes cloth, leather, and armor?The spell says "material of one sort." Cloth, leather, and metal are three different materials. I'm a lenient GM and would probably let you make a suit of full plate out of the component materials, but as written the spell doesn't let you do that.
Everything you've asked about is either answered in the spell description, or answered because there's nothing in the spell description to indicate what you're implying in your interpretation of the spell.
Thank you for your responses. I will house rule the rest.
I do not see, "Not an error". This appears to be a bug on your side. I thought you were getting pissed off at me by typing that, but apparently it is suppose to say that next to the FAQ info.
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I don't see that either - is it possible that it's something only Paizo staff sees? I just see the 12 people marked this as a FAQ candidate text, nothing else.I do not understand what "the text next to the number of people who have marked this thread" means.Where it says "13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Not an error." That last part means a staff member has clicked something to process the FAQness. I admit that's not obvious, and I'm going to talk to Gary about improving that.
Not sure if this information will help or not but:
I was the original poster.
I clicked on the FAQ button.
I am using Firefox 6.0.2, XP Pro.
I've had Gary change that "not an error" text flag for cleared FAQ request to "Staff response: no reply required." It may take some time for this to propagate throughout the site, but it should be clearer for future matters.
And I logged out and checked the thread to make sure it wasn't just visible to staff; it was right there, on my computer and Jason's. So if you're still not seeing it (or the revised text for it), I dunno what's up, perhaps a browser or cache issue? Do a barrel roll?
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I've had Gary change that "not an error" text flag for cleared FAQ request to "Staff response: no reply required." It may take some time for this to propagate throughout the site, but it should be clearer for future matters.
And I logged out and checked the thread to make sure it wasn't just visible to staff; it was right there, on my computer and Jason's. So if you're still not seeing it (or the revised text for it), I dunno what's up, perhaps a browser or cache issue? Do a barrel roll?
I logged out and it showed "Staff response: no reply required".
I logged back in and it disappeared.
Is there maybe a setting in my account preferences? It really appears like an issue on your side.
Turns out there was a bug that prevented showing FAQ flag resolution status to anybody who had actually FAQ flagged a post, which is why you couldn't see it when you were logged in but anybody else who hadn't flagged it could. This bug has been fixed.
That's some killer turn-around. Is your QA team really fast, or did you sneak this past em? :)
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Turns out there was a bug that prevented showing FAQ flag resolution status to anybody who had actually FAQ flagged a post, which is why you couldn't see it when you were logged in but anybody else who hadn't flagged it could. This bug has been fixed.
Appreciate the fix. Happy I could find a bug for you.
