Feat replacements aside.
Why on earth would I want to be an Arcane Bomber, Scrollmaster, Seige Mage, or Spell Slinger?
They all seem to be all about trying to do things the Wizard just isn't good at, and they all do a poor job making the Wizard able to do them.
Scroll masters can use their level and int mod on scrolls.
That is the entire reason to take the archetype.
I for one actually like the spellslinger. But not so much as a wizard that shoots a gun. I like it for the bonuses on touch attacks when using magic bullets. The campaign I have one set up for is Kingmaker. Currently, it really is a 15min workday so the limited spell selection is of no consequence. However the markedly increased DC's are quite benificial.
Personally, I do not "get" the appeal of a seige mage or arcane bomber, but perhaps in a different campaign world it would make perfect sense.
As for the scrollmaster, I like the idea, but don't think I would ever do it justice.
Greg
EDIT:
Explain to me why I would want ANY of the Wizard's Alternate Class Features
As to why you would want them, I have no idea. It is an individual choice, so I can only state reasons why I would want them.
Feat replacements aside.
Why on earth would I want to be an Arcane Bomber, Scrollmaster, Seige Mage, or Spell Slinger?
They all seem to be all about trying to do things the Wizard just isn't good at, and they all do a poor job making the Wizard able to do them.
I don't know enough about the Arcane Bomber to comment.
In the case of the Siege Mage and Spell Slinger I think you are absolutely right.
In the case of the Scrollmaster, I think you are absolutely off base though. Many people consider it MORE powerful than the normal wizard on account of its ability to use its own DCs and catser level on scrolls. That means you can craft a hundred minimum-caster level scrolls, and have them all operate at 20th-caster level. You will never not be prepared for anything. Being able to conjure up a deadly magical shortsword can be pretty convenient when you are swallowed whole as well, and synergizes well with eldritch knight builds.
A friend of mine made a scroll master who was powerful in his own right (just for being a spellcasting wizard), but when he broke out his scrolls, his caster level suddenly got boosted by like +5 thanks to stacking several feats and such.
Scrollmaster is awesome! Death by 1000 Papercuts all up in that ogre.
I for one actually like the spellslinger. But not so much as a wizard that shoots a gun. I like it for the bonuses on touch attacks when using magic bullets. The campaign I have one set up for is Kingmaker. Currently, it really is a 15min workday so the limited spell selection is of no consequence. However the markedly increased DC's are quite benificial.
Personally, I do not "get" the appeal of a seige mage or arcane bomber, but perhaps in a different campaign world it would make perfect sense.
As for the scrollmaster, I like the idea, but don't think I would ever do it justice.
Greg
EDIT:
Explain to me why I would want ANY of the Wizard's Alternate Class FeaturesAs to why you would want them, I have no idea. It is an individual choice, so I can only state reasons why I would want them.
Lets talk Optimization and Viability here. I understand you can make a Ranger/Bard/Sorcerer if it fits your nebulous "character concept", but considering the mechanics and rules, what are some builds that effectively use these ACFs that aren't completely outclassed by other options?
As someone else mentioned, the Spellslinger changes the Wizard entirely - locking out 4 schools and forcing you to focus on one thing - which optimally will be damage.
If that's what you're going to do, why not just go Arcane Archer? Arrows are far less expensive and don't have to be reloaded. (I'm not a fan of the Gunslinger in general to be honest.)
Scrollmaster is awesome! Death by 1000 Papercuts all up in that ogre.
But that requires you to go into Melee, which means if you're casting you're casting defensively.
And if you're not casting, then why aren't you a fighter?
But that requires you to go into Melee, which means if you're casting you're casting defensively.
And if you're not casting, then why aren't you a fighter?
It seems that you might have a very narrow view of what each class can/should accomplish.
The scroll master is still a very competent caster, but now he has another trick in his back pocket. He may not be wading into melee, but melee will tend to find him. Now, instead of fleeing/casting defensively he can choose to finish off a weaker opponent via weapon damage. In battles where the tide has fully turned in favor of the party (the point at which "god" casting becomes worthless) it's a good idea to start contributing to HP damage to help mop up the enemies.
It's a fun, flavorful option that will occasionally see some excellent use throughout a campaign. I don't see it as a focal point for the archetype, though- especially for a caster.
My friend, are you taking crazy pills?Please don't do this.
Reference Zoolander, the greatest film of the 2000s? :(
Krunch: Here's a thread that should be what you're looking for. The crux of your argument is that it's a non-optimal archetype. I infer from this that you think it's a waste of space for have non-optimal archetypes. That thread is right up your alley.
Also, I really want to play a Siege Mage that has a Steam Giant and takes over the cannons.
But that requires you to go into Melee, which means if you're casting you're casting defensively.
And if you're not casting, then why aren't you a fighter?
It seems that you might have a very narrow view of what each class can/should accomplish.
The scroll master is still a very competent caster, but now he has another trick in his back pocket. He may not be wading into melee, but melee will tend to find him. Now, instead of fleeing/casting defensively he can choose to finish off a weaker opponent via weapon damage. In battles where the tide has fully turned in favor of the party (the point at which "god" casting becomes worthless) it's a good idea to start contributing to HP damage to help mop up the enemies.
It's a fun, flavorful option that will occasionally see some excellent use throughout a campaign. I don't see it as a focal point for the archetype, though- especially for a caster.
Maybe...
I'm not sure it's worth giving up the Arcane Bond though. Particularly with the right Familiar, you can have the Familiar casting spells off of Scrolls.
And don't get me wrong, I love flavor. I just wonder about whether or not they're empty calories.
If that's what you're going to do, why not just go Arcane Archer? Arrows are far less expensive and don't have to be reloaded. (I'm not a fan of the Gunslinger in general to be honest.)
My spellslinger has never fired a shot from his gun. I don't want to mimic a gunslinger. If I wanted to have a guy great at shooting guns...well, I'd play a gunslinger. Won't even do it in "down time". ( Don't wanna be without the bonded weapon if I happen to roll a one) I only use spells. Focused mostly on necromantic and evocation (yes those nasty ugly blasting things)
Seldom has my character had to cast more than 5 spells in any adventuring day. Rarely are more than two spells cast in any combat before it is over. There are already two battlefield control/buffers. Blaster seemed fun. x3 crits are wonderful with spells. Range is based on spell...not the weapon. Enchants to hit or to DC seem to really pay off.
I wanted to play a caster w/o duplicating another. And I find a build that makes a blaster caster viable in this campaign with this group emensely enjoyable. Quirk of the campaign, I would guess.
But once again, it is very campaign specific. I can only imagine choices like seige mage and arcane bomber are as well. But I would hate to play either.
I play in alot of homebrew worlds over the years. Sometimes, there are really odd limitations. ( worst two I can remember, no metal of anykind and another where characters died of curse at end of campaign) I have played games where everyone was required to be an arcane caster. Greater differentation was only a boon in that one.
Not every choice is based on a generic setting where everything is allowed.
Greg
My friend, are you taking crazy pills?Please don't do this.Reference Zoolander, the greatest film of the 2000s? :(
Krunch: Here's a thread that should be what you're looking for. The crux of your argument is that it's a non-optimal archetype. I infer from this that you think it's a waste of space for have non-optimal archetypes. That thread is right up your alley.
Also, I really want to play a Siege Mage that has a Steam Giant and takes over the cannons.
Your link is broken.
But I assume that it argues that being "sub-optimal" isn't the same as being a "waste of space".
I agree. But I'm more interested in optimal.
And that is not the gist that I gathered from the thread. And it would appear I misjudged your position.
The scrollmaster is the only one I'd consider potentially worth the sacrifice. The familiar is a big loss, but all those full DC, full caster level scrolls effectively push your spell/day up nearly infinitely high for a wildly reduced gold cost.
The crazy scroll-weapon wielding is really just fluff you'll only employee if you're entirely out of options, which will probably never happen because of your insane amount of scrolls.
The scrollmaster is the only one I'd consider potentially worth the sacrifice. The familiar is a big loss, but all those full DC, full caster level scrolls effectively push your spell/day up nearly infinitely high for a wildly reduced gold cost.
The crazy scroll-weapon wielding is really just fluff you'll only employee if you're entirely out of options, which will probably never happen because of your insane amount of scrolls.
that's nice and dandy but that ability comes in to play at level 10 (if I'm not mistaken), meaning a familiar or a bonded object would have been much more useful... just saying, the ability is still good, the question is, is it worth waiting half your career for it?
Scrollmaster is only going to shine if you are sure you will be playing past 10th level. The 1st level scrollmaster ability is clearly inferior to arcane bond, either the familiar or the bonded item.
But the 10th level ability has a great deal of value.
It works with all your feats including Spell Perfection. It increases the value of your free Scribe Scroll feat. The advantage of Scribe Scroll is versatility. But the weakness is that the scrolls are cast at a usually far inferior level with far inferior DCs.
But with the Scrollmaster ability you can create scrolls at the minimum level and obtain a much higher value for your expenditure. You can also incorporate metamagic feats onto your scrolls like Persistent Spell or Dazing Spell. Or you can make cheap scrolls of mirror image or other minor buffs. And you can take full advantage of scrolls found as treasure, when such items were usually clutter items never used as you rose in level and they became less and less useful.
Giving up a lvl 10 feat to greatly enhance Scribe Scroll is well worth the tradeoff. Scrolls are very versatile. As the game reaches the higher levels, you gain a great deal of versatility in preparation if you are able to load up needed spells on scrolls without having to worry about being hamstrung on caster level or DCs.
Why would you want to do that?
Because it's a role-playing game.
Because the game is not about winning.
Because the game is not about creating the most effective character.
Because the game is about having fun.
Because playing a wizard with a new flavor can be more fun than the umpteenth incarnation of what is basically the same character tuned for effectiveness.
That's why.
It may not be that way for you, but for many other players it is, and the game not made for you alone.
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As my grampa told me a long time ago, "be wary of anyone who starts a thread over the Paizo forum with the phrase 'why would anyone', for he is usually looking for trouble".
Why would you want to do that?
Because it's a role-playing game.
Because the game is not about winning.
Because the game is not about creating the most effective character.
Because the game is about having fun.
Because playing a wizard with a new flavor can be more fun than the umpteenth incarnation of what is basically the same character tuned for effectiveness.
That's why.
It may not be that way for you, but for many other players it is, and the game not made for you alone.
Can we just assume this sort of disclaimer is a given in these sorts of discussions? Yes, yes, flavor, flavor, the point is clearly a mechanical comparison.
I think siege mage is an awesome NPC to have around if you ever have to sack a castle, though as a PC not so much.
From the front lines;
PC's, "General, we don't have the armaments to take down that wall."
General, "I have a secret weapon." Motions to allow someone forward
Out from the crowd steps a soot smudged man in fine robes followed by the biggest siege engine you've ever seen following him like a puppy....with no crew.
Devistatioon commences.
Profit.
I think siege mage is an awesome NPC to have around if you ever have to sack a castle, though as a PC not so much.
From the front lines;
PC's, "General, we don't have the armaments to take down that wall."
General, "I have a secret weapon." Motions to allow someone forward
Out from the crowd steps a soot smudged man in fine robes followed by the biggest siege engine you've ever seen following him like a puppy....with no crew.
Devistatioon commences.
Profit.
Or, you know, my non-siege wizard could craft a bunch of animated siege weapons and go to town with an entire team of destructive devices.
The problem with the siege mage is that he can't do anything that a standard wizard can't do better. At the very least he would need to be able to control a whole group of siege weapons in the manner you describe. As written, however, he will only ever be limited to ONE, regardless of whether he is 1st-level or 20th.
I think siege mage is an awesome NPC to have around if you ever have to sack a castle, though as a PC not so much.
From the front lines;
PC's, "General, we don't have the armaments to take down that wall."
General, "I have a secret weapon." Motions to allow someone forward
Out from the crowd steps a soot smudged man in fine robes followed by the biggest siege engine you've ever seen following him like a puppy....with no crew.
Devistatioon commences.
Profit.
Or, you know, my non-siege wizard could craft a bunch of animated siege weapons and go to town with an entire team of destructive devices.
The problem with the siege mage is that he can't do anything that a standard wizard can't do better. At the very least he would need to be able to control a whole group of siege weapons in the manner you describe. As written, however, he will only ever be limited to ONE, regardless of whether he is 1st-level or 20th.
Fair enough.
Removed some posts. Let's try this again without the snarky insults about play style.Deletions from the 2nd post on...new record!
Perhaps you should lay off the snark about play style and play nice with the other children.
Spellslinger (Archetype)
While few contest the seductive allure of commanding arcane and occult powers, there are those wizards who become obsessed with the natural mysteries of black powder. Combining this emerging technology with their considerable arcane skills, they transform firearms into a powerful focus.
Arcane Gun (Su): The spellslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger's hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic. At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.
A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun's enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell's attack rolls or to the spell's saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this method. If any of the spells' attack rolls result in a natural 1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The blast is centered on a single intersection within the spellslinger's space (spellslinger's choice) and deals 1d6 points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast other than the spellslinger can make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. The Reflex save DC is calculated using the spell level of the spell being sacrificed.
A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is destroyed. This ability replaces arcane bond.
Gunsmith: The spellslinger gains the Gunsmithing feat and a battered gun that is identical to the gun a gunslinger gains at first level. If the spellslinger chooses the ability to attune two arcane guns, he still only starts out with one gun. Like a gunslinger, a spellslinger can use the Gunsmithing feat to restore his battered gun. This ability replaces scribe scroll.
Mage Bullets (Su): A spellslinger is adept at transferring spell energy into his arcane gun attacks. As a swift action, he can sacrifice a spell and transform that energy into a weapon bonus equal to the level of the spell sacrificed on a single barrel of his firearm. With that weapon bonus the spellslinger can apply any of the following to his arcane bond: enhancement bonuses (up to +5) and dancing, defending, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, merciful, seeking, shock, shocking burst, spell storing, thundering, vicious, and wounding. An arcane gun gains no benefit from having two of the same weapon special abilities on the same barrel. The effect of the mage bullets ability lasts for a number of minutes equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, or until this ability is used again to assign the barrel different enhancements. This ability replaces cantrips, but the spellslinger gains the detect magic and read magic cantrips and places them in his spellbook. He can cast either of these as 1st-level spells.
School of the Gun: The rigor and care required by arcane guns is so great that a spellslinger forsakes four schools of magic. These opposition schools are chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed later. A spellslinger who prepares a spell from his opposition school must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. In addition, the spellslinger takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. This ability replaces arcane school.
-Arcane gun for Arcane bond, not a bad tradeoff and very fluffy, I like
-Gunsmiting for Scribe Scroll, this one made me cringe, but alas, very flavorful and goes with the gun wizard concept.
-Mage Bullets for cantrips, shall be missed deeply, well mainly infinite detect magic read magic anyways... can live without this I guess?
-School of the gun for....having a gun? wasn't that taken care of with arcane bond?! why? this one is just adding insult to injury!
I don't know about you but archetypes is a concept of taking something from a class and adding another EQUIVALENT thing in its place, when an archetype decides to take more than it gives, that's the problem! I don't want to lose things from my class just to be cool! I want an archetype that gives cool abilities AND makes fair trade-offs!
Might as well make a wizard and take exotic weapon proficiency [firearms] and make pew pew pew sounds with ghost sound and call it an archetype too!
I think construct siege engines are an awesome idea.
I would strongly agree with most of the posters that scroll master is great.
Think of having scribe scroll as meaning you can store all your money as extra spells, and when you want the money you just sell off the scrolls for the same amount that it cost you to make the scroll (no loss). Every wizard gets this ability and should be using it as much as possible.
The limitation of the scrolls is that they are much more expensive to make at full caster level and don't get all your benefits from class. The scroll master fixes this, meaning you can now make an even larger library of useful spells (ones that scale with level) to have on scrolls as stored cash. When you need them they are there, when you want your money out sell them... win/win.
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The Spellslinger is a way to make a pretty decent blaster with a wizard. x3 crit on your spells (big deal) and Increased DC on your spells are a big deal... but there isn't many spells that fit the requirements for casting through the gun.
The next Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder I am recording will have a way to significantly open up the number and type of spells that this variant can cast... to a point some GMs may consider it too powerful... we'll see. I will link it once posted.
Sean Mahoney
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To me the siege wizard feels like he belongs on a spelljammer. He's gonna lose spells to fly the thing anyway, but now he can bond with the ship's weaponry.
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Perhaps you should lay off the snark about play style and play nice with the other children.Removed some posts. Let's try this again without the snarky insults about play style.Deletions from the 2nd post on...new record!
Wasn't my comments that were deleted. I just came to the thread and noticed the 2nd post being that posts were deleted.
And no.
