A Houserule Improvement of the Sorcerer

[znancekivell]

As a fan of spontaneous spell casting, I find many of the spontaneous casters in Pathfinder (and 3.X) to be woefully underpowered and incapable compared to the more studious classes, like Wizards or Witches. Different classes, different themes I know, but the comparison still stands. Being able to spontaneously cast spells is of little boon if you can only ever cast the same few spells over and over again, with little chance of variation or improvement. To that end, I've devised a quick houserule that I plan on playtesting in my next few sessions, but I would greatly welcome the advice and knowledge of the greater online community for feedback or improvements/suggestions.

Please note that this thread is not to discuss the comparisons between a Spontaneous caster and a Studious caster, so please take such comments elsewhere. Thank you.

ARCANE SURGE:

You may cast any spell from the sorcerer/wizard list of spells, as long as you are of the appropriate level to cast spells for that level. To do so, you must sacrifice an extra Spell per Day slot when you cast the spell. For instance, casting Magic Missle through Arcane Surge would use up two of your Spells per Day for Level 1 spells, instead of one. This effect also applies to spells cast through Metamagic. For example, Maximized Magic Missle cast through Arcane Surge would use up two of your Spells per Day for Level 4 spells instead of Level 1 spells. You must be able to cast spells spontaneously to use this ability, and this ability may only be used by a class that casts spells spontaneously.

P.S: As a side note, while this ability to obviously geared to the Sorcerer, you could change some wording around and have it apply to any spontaneous spellcasting class.

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Thoughts?

[Aleron]

Speaking honestly, it is way too powerful. Don't get me wrong, I do see what you are trying to do and why. I also love spontaneous casters, especially sorcerers, myself. With that in mind...the other caster's (non-spontaneous) best point is their versatility and being able to cast any (well any they know/have access to) spell with some preparation. Doing this would reduce that to nothing, since sorcerer can do that without any effort. Playing anything outside a spontaneous caster would be a handicap.

Also, keep in mind other casters generally have to keep a spellbook/familiar/prayerbook/etc for spells known.

If you are dead set on this, I would make it much more restricted from a balance point of view and implement these changes:
First, you couldn't alter these spells with any metamagic feats.
Second, you would need any material components that the spell requires (Eschew materials would not count).
Third, I would rule that the sorcerer must have first hand experience with the spell they are trying to cast (seen and recognized with a spellcraft check or had it used on them).
Last, I would make it suck up two slots of one level higher spell or one slot of anything two or higher. That likely isn't clear as I would like so here is an example. Ex: To cast cat's grace you would need to sacrifice two third level casting slots or one fourth level casting slot or one fifth level casting slot, etc.

Maybe with those stipulations, but even then...I'm hesitant. Also, you should be losing something to gain this ability. Maybe an entire bloodline lost considering the immense versatility this would give.

[Dire Mongoose]

Aleron wrote:

Speaking honestly, it is way too powerful.

+1.

If you give a terrible player this, it's probably okay. If you give someone who would make wizard or sorcerer even look okay this ability, they will easily dominate the game.

[znancekivell]

Hmm, too bad. I was thinking that a Sorcerer with this ability would be comparable to a specialist Wizard, in terms of their Spells per Day. After all, if a Sorcerer with 6 SpD used just one use of Arcane Surge, they would only have 4 SpD left, exactly as a Wizard would have. Being able to pick and choose any spell doesn't mean much, if the Wizard in the party can just learn from scrolls and acquire many spells per level.

I debated adding on a -4 penalty to Resistance Checks and Concentration checks with such spells cast through Arcane Surge, and no ability to modify spells through metamagic. Perhaps that would even things out?

Also, I do not want Sorcerer's or other classes to lose what few abilities they do have, so Arcane Surge must exist in tandem to what Sorcerer abilities all ready exist.

A final idea was to add an Arcane Pool, similar to the Monk (Ki) or Magus, and let spontaneous casters cast any spell from the proper list by spending Arcane Points equal to the level they are trying to cast as a free action. This ability would still use up an appropriate Spell per Day equal to the level of the spell. This Arcane Pool (for a Sorcerer at least) would be equal to half the characters level (minimum 1) + Charisma modifier.

Any other thoughts or improvements? I appreciate the feedback.

[Martiln]

Sorcerers aren't underpowered if you know how to build/play them.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/wizardVsSorc The following post from this thread is a fine example.

Aelryinth wrote:

From the last time this subject was broached:

Here’s a breakdown of Spells Known for the Sorcerer, Arcane Bloodline, Human, using Favored Class Benefit: Extra Spell Known.

Level 20: Base spells Known is: 9(cantrips)+5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

Bonus Spells from Bloodline, +1 for each level: Identify, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Wish.

At 9th, 13th, and 17th, you get a bonus Spell Known. We’ll assume a 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.

The Human Favored Class gives you +1 Spell Known, of 1 level less then the highest level you can cast. So basically, you get 3 hit points (levels 1-3) unless you want more cantrips, and then +2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3, for an effective +17 Spells Known.

Without stats, magic items or spells, you now have:

12 + 8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4, + Potential Arcane Bond (basically, cast 1 Any Spell Known 1/day), +3 varied feats from a short list.

That’s quite a few Spells Known.

Also note a weird effect. IF the sorcerer goes into Epic levels, she keeps getting more Spells Known via Favored Class at EVERY level. If she opens up 10th+ spell slots, these can be 9th or higher level spells, too!

For Spells Castable, at 20th we have 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6. With a starting Cha of 16, human bonus +2, +5 levels, +5 inherent from the Wish spell she can cast, +6 headband, we end up with a 34 Cha, which gives us 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1, for a grand total of:

9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 Spells Castable per day, and 12 different cantrips, unlimited.

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In contrast, The Wizard:

Gets 4 + 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. This is 5 + 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 if he’s a specialist, but it costs him some spell flexibility.

He’s WAY behind on cantrips ;)

With a 34 Int (same as sorcs Cha)

5 + 8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6 if he’s a specialist. Hah, cantrips don’t go up via Int.
The Generalist is 4 + 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5.

He’s got an Arcane Bond (basically cast Desired Spell 1/day) and 4 feats from a better list.

His favored class version if Human gets him more spells for free in his spell book, but doesn’t help with spells available in a fight.

Higher Int gives him +12 skill points per level, so that’s useful. +12 Int bonus will probably mean he’s better at Knowledge skills then a bard, too. (bard bonus max +10).

(Editor's Note: A Sage Human Arcane Sorcerer gets this exact benefit, too, and arguably has a more useful skill list.)

==
Yeah, Kinda giving the nod to the human sorcerer here. That Favored Class benefit is huge. And the best thing is all those spells are permanently known, not subject to magic or other effects, and they are ALL DIFFERENT…no repeated spells so you can cast something 2/day.

I’m thinking that with 63 different spells known all the time, there is not going to be much of a problem with ‘specific spell required’ at higher levels…or even at lower ones.

And again, note that the sorcerer Spells Known is not based on stats: She gets them all by level, by Arcane Bloodline, and by human favored class.

Non-humans get substantially fewer spells known, of course…17, to be exact.

Non-Arcane bloodlines learn 3 less spells (4th, 6th, 8th).

===============
In Summation:

The human Sorc will know 63 different spells. the wizard will basically never have more spells known and carried in his head at one time then the sorc, even if he gets them a level earlier.

The wizard only gets 4 spells/level for free. They must spend a not insubstantial amount of gold at every level to expand their spellbook, and if they don't have access to someplace to buy spells, they are stuck with their automatic 4 (unless they want to burn a Favored Class point). That same amount of gold the sorc can spend to acquire some wands, scrolls and staves for utility spells they don't have/can't cast.

And the sorc's spells are available all the time, and spammable. The wizard has to take the risk of not having the right spells for the job ahead.

==Aelryinth

[Cheapy]

So in a highly specific instance, sorcerers can out wizard a wizard.

Good to know.

Now for the other sorcerers, the issue does still stand.

[Abraham spalding]

And only while ignoring things like the magecraft amulet, and pearls of power or feats.

Sorcerer Aid Project: Sigils and Talents might have some stuff that would be useful to your table.

[Treantmonk]

There is a prestige class called "Mage of the Arcane Order" in Complete Arcane (3.5)

You could either allow that PrC (it's not overpowered), or come up with a variation of the "Spell Pool" ability that the MotAO has.

That would probably be the solution you are looking for.

[znancekivell]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll take a look around and see what I can come up with. I dislike my spontaneous casters being behind the curb, especially when Sorcerer's have always been to me beings with untold, raw magical energy just waiting to burst forth. Though, admittedly, I apply a similar belief to all spontaneous classes.

[Set]

Unknownx10 wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll take a look around and see what I can come up with. I dislike my spontaneous casters being behind the curb, especially when Sorcerer's have always been to me beings with untold, raw magical energy just waiting to burst forth. Though, admittedly, I apply a similar belief to all spontaneous classes.

The only place where I see spontaneous casters (Sorcerers, Favored Souls and / or Oracles, in this case) lacking is in their delayed spell advancement. Waiting until 4th level for their 2nd level spells and until 6th level for their third level spells puts them a level behind on most Prestige Classes, which sucks for Prestige Classes like Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge, in which you are *already* taking a hit to spell advancement.

If I was going to make a Sorcerer change, it would be to have them learn new levels of spells at the same rate as Wizards (i.e. 2nd level spells at 3rd Sor level, 3rd level spells at 5th Sor level, etc.) and to allow them to use Quicken Spell without a casting time tax.

[Abraham spalding]

Set wrote:

... and to allow them to use Quicken Spell without a casting time tax.

Ahem... they already can use quicken spell without a casting time tax.

[Blueluck]

I like your original idea, but agree with other posters that it's overpowered. The thing that makes it overpowered is the enormous range of choices when you say, "any spell from the sorcerer/wizard list". As a compromise, it may work to allow all spontaneous casters to choose two lists of spells known, the normal list, and the "secondary list".

Houserule, "Secondary Spells Known"
Whenever a player chooses a "spell known" for any class, the player also chooses another spell from the same list of available spells. This spell is placed on the Secondary Spells Known for that character. The character may cast any spell off of the secondary list by using twice the required number of spells per day.

[Set]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Set wrote:

... and to allow them to use Quicken Spell without a casting time tax.

Ahem... they already can use quicken spell without a casting time tax.

The OP mentioned both PF and 3.X, so I was keeping my reply open to both.

[Abraham spalding]

Set wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Set wrote:

... and to allow them to use Quicken Spell without a casting time tax.

Ahem... they already can use quicken spell without a casting time tax.

The OP mentioned both PF and 3.X, so I was keeping my reply open to both.

Ah, I see in that case never mind and quite correct.