Attribute Importance By Class

[n00bxqb]

Hi,

I'm working on an Excel program that will auto-generate random characters and would like some input on what you feel are the best-to-worst abilities for the various classes. Now, I know there are a ton of different ways you can build a class that can be effective, but if you could provide me with your input on how you would build a specific class, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm pretty new to D&D/Pathfinder, so I'm not 100% on some classes.

For those wondering, the whole idea came about when our party of 4 was traveling to a town to cure 2 of us who had contracted a disease (and had no party members who could cure it). Along the way, we were attacked and, unfortunately, the 2 diseased members were burned to a crisp by alchemist's fire. This basically ended the night because, between rolling, sharing books, trying to decide on a class, printing out new character sheets, etc., it took about an hour before we gave up on playing again that night.

I already have the program up and running and it will undoubtedly save a ton of time, but the problem right now is that all the rolls are tied to a specific ability, so sometimes you end up with a Wizard that has 18 STR but only 10 INT, for example. By assigning best-to-worst die roll values to the most important-to-least important abilities, it will make it more similar to how someone would build the character in real life. Once I get this part done, basically we can be up and running again in very little time (especially if they draw a non-spellcaster).

[sphar]

BARBARIAN(2H)
Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha

BARD(Finesse)
Dex>Cha>Int>Con>Wis>Str

CLERIC (Healer)
Wis>Cha>Con>Int>Str>Dex

DRUID(Melee)
Str>Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Cha

FIGHTER(2H)
Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha

MONK(Unarmed Ftr)
Str>Wis>Dex>Con>Int>Cha

PALADIN(2H)
Str>Cha>Con>Dex>Wis>Int

RANGER(Archer)
Dex>Str>Wis>Con>Int>Cha

ROGUE(TWF)
Dex>Con>Str>Wis>Int>Cha

SORCERER(Blaster)
Cha>Dex>Con>Wis>Int>Str

WIZARD(Blaster)
Int>Dex>Con>Wis>Str>Cha

That's the archetypal builds.Btw,what you're doing looks very interesting.

[Helaman]

Nice Idea! Kudos'. Once you have the basics up and going I also suggest that you add in any nuanced character types like 2 weapon fighter etc but getting this up and running is a great idea.

[fictionfan]

Could you perhaps post it up maybe a google doc. I have a player playing a thrallheard and I would like a way to randomly generate believers.

[n00bxqb]

fictionfan wrote:

Could you perhaps post it up maybe a google doc. I have a player playing a thrallheard and I would like a way to randomly generate believers.

I'll have to see about the Google Docs thing. I know Google Docs doesn't support Macros, so I'd have to do some manipulation to make it compatible. Right now, I'm just working on making sure it works on Excel 2010/2007 and then I'll work on converting it to other formats.

Layout

A single click of the button

It's still a work in progress, but my friends and I think it has potential. The layout will change (it's ugly, I know), but the mechanics behind it are more important ATM.

Oh, I guess I forgot to mention it's for Pathfinder. Does anyone have the ranked abilities for the APG classes ?

[A Man In Black]

I respectfully disagree with sphar's evalution.

Barbarian:

Str > dex = con > wis > int > cha

Strength is obviously the most important stat for any reasonable pure-barbarian build. Dexterity and constitution are necessary to balance for survivability's sake. After that, wisdom augments will saves, intelligence offers skill points, and charisma does very little.

A notable exception would be Intimidate-focused builds, which can weigh charisma anywhere from even with dex and con down to simply overwhelming an 8 cha with bonuses.

Bard:

Archer: Cha > dex > con = int > str > wis
Others: Cha > con = int > dex = str > wis

A bard's most important, powerful, and versatile class ability is spellcasting, so that's first and foremost. Cha also boosts social skills. Dex is important for archers, but otherwise useful for little more than AC boosts and a few skills. Intelligence grants skill points, which may or may not be necessary, and con contributes to survivability, which is always necessary. Str is only for melee combat or archery damage (neither of which are a bard's forte) and wis contributes little.

Cleric:

Wis > con > str or dex > cha > int = (the other of str or dex)

Again, a cleric's most important class ability is wis. Like any character expected to enter melee, con is very important; even pacifists need a buffer to get into position to use Channel Energy effectively more than they do an extra use or two of Channel. Str is important to melee clerics and dex is of negligible value; the reverse is true for archers. It's good to avoid a negative value in cha, but it's not worth sacrificing anything to get a positive value. Int is of little value, as clerics have a small, terrible skill list.

Druid:

Wis > con > dex = str > int > cha

Druids are somewhere between barbarians and clerics; they are spellcasters first and foremost, but they also have a "rage"-like ability to enter melee. However, this rage leaves them relatively vulnerable to other melee combatants. Without a significant amount of extra HP from this ability, con takes its usual place ahead of dex. It does provide a reasonable amount of str, so 10 or 12 is fine for a melee-focused druid. Int provides only skills, cha provides nearly nothing.

Fighter:

(Str or dex) > con > (dex or str) > wis > int = cha

Fighters are pretty straightforward. All fighters need con, melee fighters will use str with some dex, archers will use dex with some str, wis is for will saves, and int and cha are either for a slightly broader skillset or Intimidate shenanigans, whichever you prefer.

Monk:

Str > Con > Wis > Dex > Int > Cha

Monks need Con, first and foremost, to do anything. Str is necessary for hitting people, which is basically all they do. Wis has a bunch of tertiary uses, including serving the traditional role that dex does for a melee character. Dex is even more AC and some sneakiness if you can afford a positive score, int is there for more skills, cha is basically useless.

I am sorely tempted to rate monks Con > Str > Wis or Con > Str = Wis, though. The first three are pretty important to balance, the rest not so much.

Paladin:

(Str or dex) > con > cha > (dex or str) > int = wis

Same deal as the fighter, only cha has a bunch of tertiary uses that put it ahead of the weaker of dex/str. Wis falls right off the end because of good will saves and Divine Grace.

Ranger:
(Str or dex) > con > (dex or str) > wis = int > cha

Rangers are basically the same as fighters. They have better skill pools, yes, but they also have many more base skill points. As long as you don't dump int, you're likely to be able to pick up all of the skills you want.

Rogue:

Dex > con > int > str > int > wis > cha

Rogues can go all out to hurt people in melee, but they're not great at it. Assuming you don't go for the 2h rogue (who just switches dex with str and runs away a lot), dex is AC and to-hit and skills and possibly TWF feat access, if you go that way. I wouldn't go all out and go above a 14, though, because con is almost as important, because rogues also aren't great at not dying. Int should be positive, because you'll usually have more than 8 skills you want. Str helps a bit with damage, wis helps with will saves and you'll always wish you had more, and cha only boosts social skills. A rogue can focus on social skills, but with all the other directions he's pulled, having positive cha is hard.

Sorcerer

Cha > con > dex > int > wis = str

Spells come first, then not dying, then maybe an extra skill point, then whatever.

Wizard

Int > con > dex > wis > str = cha

Spells first, then not dying, then will saves I guess? Really, a wizard can get away with 8s in everything but con and int.

[n00bxqb]

Thanks guys, appreciate it.

Does anyone have anymore input on the classes ? Any input on the APG, UM, and UC classes ?

[Vuvu]

this is a fantastic idea, i cant wait to see the generator, i wish i had it to use now

[n00bxqb]

Bump

[Silent Saturn]

I took a look through the APG to try and rank the attributes for the classes therein for you. Here's my take on it all, though I acknowledge differing opinions.

ALCHEMIST

Int > Dex > Str > Wis = Cha > Con

Intelligence is spells, bomb damage, and skills, plus the Alchemist can get extra abilities that care about Int (like the one that lets your weapons stay poisoned for a number of strikes equal to your Int modifier). Dex is to-hit with bombs and AC for a class that's armor-light. Really the Alchemist doesn't care about any other stat, but he cares about the physical ones even less because his mutagens can buff those if need be. I only rank Strength as third because the Strength mutagen gives you an Int penalty, so you're not going to want to use that one much-- plus, the Alchemist can keep his melee weapon poisoned and go in for a devastating strike.

CAVALIER

Dex > Str = Con > Cha > Wis > Int

The main difference between a Cavalier and a Fighter is that the Cavalier uses Charisma more (for Handle Animal and such) and he has more need for Dex. Not only is ranged combat a better option from horseback, but the cavalier's challenge ability gives a -2 AC penalty against attacks from anyone but your challenger.

ORACLE

Cha > Con > Dex > Str > Wis > Int

Oracles are very similar to sorcerors. You can build a melee-capable oracle if you want, they do wear medium armor, but mostly you're a spellcaster.

INQUISITOR

Wis > Dex > Str > Int > Con > Cha

Inquisitors strike me as being similar to druids or bards. They have 3/4 BAB progression, and their judgments mean they're viable in melee, but their good spellcasting progression and their proficiency with martial bows in addition to simple weapons makes me feel like they'd rather be archers and/or casters. Their Monster Lore wants you to have decent Int-- at least decent enough that you've got a few Knowledges trained. As for Charisma, they seem like they're more comfortable standing in the back and letting party members deal with the Diplomacy.

SUMMONER

Cha > Con > Dex > Wis > Int > Str

The eidolon basically takes care of any melee needs. The Summoner's only real responsibility is to cast spells off Charisma, not die, and have decent saves and a decent Perception check.

WITCH

Int > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha > Str

The witch, like the summoner, needs only consider spellcasting capability when assigning attributes, with second priority being to not die. So it's primary spellcasting stat first, then Con, then Dex and Wis for saves (and Dex for AC).

[CasMat]

Though I feel like a Wisdom focused Inquisitor can work at times, it is not the standard. Most focus on physical stats (usually dex but sometimes str) in order to have a good attack roll with whatever their weapon of choice may be. Inquisitors (at least in APG) don't really have as many options when it comes to making the opponent make a save, and their better spellcasting options are generally things that make their attacks deal more damage. Despite being 3/4 bab, judgment, bane, and certain spells make doing weapon damage one of their more important roles. That isn't to say Wis isn't important: they still need enough for their spells and other things.

Long story short, Inquisitors are (usually) spellcasters secondarily, not primarily.

[stuart haffenden]

You could always use Dropbox to share the file. Just pick a free account and place it in the "share" folder. Anyone wanting it just needs to give an email address.

Looks like a great tool, BTW.

[Skerek]

n00bxqb wrote:

fictionfan wrote:

Could you perhaps post it up maybe a google doc. I have a player playing a thrallheard and I would like a way to randomly generate believers.

I'll have to see about the Google Docs thing. I know Google Docs doesn't support Macros, so I'd have to do some manipulation to make it compatible. Right now, I'm just working on making sure it works on Excel 2010/2007 and then I'll work on converting it to other formats.

Layout

A single click of the button

It's still a work in progress, but my friends and I think it has potential. The layout will change (it's ugly, I know), but the mechanics behind it are more important ATM.

Oh, I guess I forgot to mention it's for Pathfinder. Does anyone have the ranked abilities for the APG classes ?

daaammnnn, can i just have that excel sheet? i've been wanting to be able to print off my character sheets for some time, just couldn't be bothered to make any templates on the computer for it though

[n00bxqb]

Anyone who wants to try it out can download it here:

Pathfinder Random Character Generator

Keep in mind, it's a work in progress. I've got all the core mechanics down, but I'm still not liking the layout (even if I made it, haha) and I haven't implemented the ranked abilities. Please leave feedback if you use it so I can improve the sheet.

Instructions:
- Download file
- Open using compatible program (listed below, let me know if Mac versions work or if it works in other Excel-like programs)
- Enable Macros if prompted
- Click the "Click Here To Roll Die" button to generate your character
- Print Page 1

Compatible with:
Excel 2010
Excel 2007 (Roll the Dice button doesn't show up properly, bottom 1/4 is cut off)
Excel 2011 for Mac (Untested, but should work)
Excel 2008 for Mac (Untested, but should work)

Known to be incompatible with:
OpenOffice (Supports Macros, but still doesn't work)
Google Docs (No Macro support)

Notes:
- Uses 3 sets of the Heroic roll (2d6 + 6) method, then uses the set with the highest average. Will release a 4d6 roll method at a later date for those wishing to go that route.
- Automatically adds in racial modifiers. For Human, Half Elf, and Half Orc, the +2 is added to the most important ability for the class.
- Auto-generates height, weight, age, starting gold, etc. using the methods outlined in the Core Rulebook.
- I've only provided the first sheet, as that's really all that's necessary for this project (at this point, at least). I use Happy Camper's sheets for pages 2-4, but feel free to use whatever you like.

[Skerek]

may i suggest that instead of using a heap of if statements to work out the modifier you instead use the floor math function eg

=FLOOR((C6-10)/2)
or
=FLOOR(C6/2)-5

[sphar]

Silent Saturn wrote:

I took a look through the APG to try and rank the attributes for the classes therein for you. Here's my take on it all, though I acknowledge differing opinions.

ALCHEMIST

Int > Dex > Str > Wis = Cha > Con

Intelligence is spells, bomb damage, and skills, plus the Alchemist can get extra abilities that care about Int (like the one that lets your weapons stay poisoned for a number of strikes equal to your Int modifier). Dex is to-hit with bombs and AC for a class that's armor-light. Really the Alchemist doesn't care about any other stat, but he cares about the physical ones even less because his mutagens can buff those if need be. I only rank Strength as third because the Strength mutagen gives you an Int penalty, so you're not going to want to use that one much-- plus, the Alchemist can keep his melee weapon poisoned and go in for a devastating strike.

CAVALIER

Dex > Str = Con > Cha > Wis > Int

The main difference between a Cavalier and a Fighter is that the Cavalier uses Charisma more (for Handle Animal and such) and he has more need for Dex. Not only is ranged combat a better option from horseback, but the cavalier's challenge ability gives a -2 AC penalty against attacks from anyone but your challenger.

ORACLE

Cha > Con > Dex > Str > Wis > Int

Oracles are very similar to sorcerors. You can build a melee-capable oracle if you want, they do wear medium armor, but mostly you're a spellcaster.

INQUISITOR

Wis > Dex > Str > Int > Con > Cha

Inquisitors strike me as being similar to druids or bards. They have 3/4 BAB progression, and their judgments mean they're viable in melee, but their good spellcasting progression and their proficiency with martial bows in addition to simple weapons makes me feel like they'd rather be archers and/or casters. Their Monster Lore wants you to have decent Int-- at least decent enough that you've got a few Knowledges trained. As for Charisma, they seem like they're more comfortable standing in the back and letting party members deal with the Diplomacy....

Most of the cavalier builds I have seen are lancers;otherwise,just take a ranger that bonds with his horse at 4th level.I don't see any reason to have Dex as a the strongest for them;they are a d10 hit dice class with good AC already.

MAGUS
(Dervish) Dex>Int>Con>Wis>Str>Cha
(Strength) Str>Int>Dex>Con>Wis>Cha

GUNSLINGER
Dex>Wis>Con>Int>Str>Cha
(Mysterous Stranger) Dex>Cha>Con>Wis>Int

NINJA
(TWF)Cha>Dex>Con>Str>Wis>Int

SAMURAI
(Melee)Str>Dex>Con>Wis>Int>Cha

(Melee) Str>Dex>Con>

[n00bxqb]

Skerek wrote:

may i suggest that instead of using a heap of if statements to work out the modifier you instead use the floor math function eg

=FLOOR((C6-10)/2)
or
=FLOOR(C6/2)-5

Thanks for the input, that would definitely make for less typing and less chance of error on my part

[n00bxqb]

The problem with the FLOOR function is it doesn't work properly in Office 2007. Any ability under 10 results in an invalid number. It works properly in Office 2010. End result was having to use more IF functions and the CEILING function ... Essentially, just as much typing ... :shrug:

[Skerek]

n00bxqb wrote:

The problem with the FLOOR function is it doesn't work properly in Office 2007. Any ability under 10 results in an invalid number. It works properly in Office 2010. End result was having to use more IF functions and the CEILING function ... Essentially, just as much typing ... :shrug:

yes i had some problems with using =FLOOR((C6-10)/2), but =FLOOR(C6/2)-5 gives the same results, seems to error when you try to floor a negative number

[fictionfan]

well The roll dice macro does not work for Excel 2008 for Mac. Thanks for the effort.

[Skerek]

maybe instead of using excel this project should shift to a browser with java script, could be easily done to be used online or offline

[Davor]

I would just like to point out that the above lists are great for quick & dirty characters, but there are several classes where Ability Scores and archetypes DRASTICALLY change the way the class plays.

For example, I'd argue that a melee-oriented Bard with the Arcane Duelist archetype would have an order of: Strength->Charisma->Constitution=Dexterity->Wisdom->Intelligenc e

And there are several other builds which have similar other flip-flopping of normal attributes. Just saying.

[Vuvu]

Skerek wrote:

maybe instead of using excel this project should shift to a browser with java script, could be easily done to be used online or offline

My version of excel doesnt work for it either. I someone could do this it would be great!

[Skerek]

ugh, i'll probably kick myself for this later, but i'll do it, but first, questions, how are ability scores generated? elite ray? 15, 20 point buy (randomized, probably cherry pick a few arrays and randomlly pick one)? also should all classes be weighted evenly? as in you're just as likely to get a 2h barb as you are to get caster bard? i'm already getting ideas on how to do this, but it probably won't be 1 click, you may need to press a button a few times as RNG isn't as random as i'd like

[n00bxqb]

Skerek wrote:

ugh, i'll probably kick myself for this later, but i'll do it, but first, questions, how are ability scores generated? elite ray? 15, 20 point buy (randomized, probably cherry pick a few arrays and randomlly pick one)? also should all classes be weighted evenly? as in you're just as likely to get a 2h barb as you are to get caster bard? i'm already getting ideas on how to do this, but it probably won't be 1 click, you may need to press a button a few times as RNG isn't as random as i'd like

From the Notes section - Uses 3 sets of the Heroic roll (2d6 + 6) method, then uses the set with the highest average.

[n00bxqb]

No Macro version (Office 2008 compatible) - http://www.box.net/shared/re3s7v0fievn9s6lvg1t

Macro version (Office 2007, 2010, possibly 2011) - http://www.box.net/shared/xq8d6n93c9iksrznp397

Macro version that does not rank abilities - http://www.box.net/shared/3c35xy83qe6ica05dddf

[n00bxqb]

Davor wrote:

I would just like to point out that the above lists are great for quick & dirty characters, but there are several classes where Ability Scores and archetypes DRASTICALLY change the way the class plays.

For example, I'd argue that a melee-oriented Bard with the Arcane Duelist archetype would have an order of: Strength->Charisma->Constitution=Dexterity->Wisdom->Intelligenc e

And there are several other builds which have similar other flip-flopping of normal attributes. Just saying.

I'd be more than willing to do different archetypes, but I'd need help in ranking the abilities. As I said, I'm pretty new to DND/Pathfinder (been playing for a few years now, but only really play about once a month), so I haven't even come close to using all the classes, let alone all the archetypes.

As for OpenOffice & Google Docs, it looks like it would require a complete rewrite as neither appear to support tables and some other functions.

I plan to make a Javascript version at some point (primarily so I can get it on my Touchpad). However, I haven't programmed in Javascript in nearly a decade, so it's a matter of getting my brain to remember.

[Some Random Dood]

Silent Saturn wrote:

I took a look through the APG to try and rank the attributes for the classes therein for you. Here's my take on it all, though I acknowledge differing opinions.

ALCHEMIST

Int > Dex > Str > Wis = Cha > Con

Intelligence is spells, bomb damage, and skills, plus the Alchemist can get extra abilities that care about Int (like the one that lets your weapons stay poisoned for a number of strikes equal to your Int modifier). Dex is to-hit with bombs and AC for a class that's armor-light. Really the Alchemist doesn't care about any other stat, but he cares about the physical ones even less because his mutagens can buff those if need be. I only rank Strength as third because the Strength mutagen gives you an Int penalty, so you're not going to want to use that one much-- plus, the Alchemist can keep his melee weapon poisoned and go in for a devastating strike.

I see your opinion, but I disagree. First it depends what you want to do with the class, also it may depend on what archetypes you choose (if any). But I wouldn't put con last for any class.

Int = Bonus formulas you learn at lv 1, bonus extracts (spells) you can use, your bonus damage with bombs and splash weapons, also affects various discoveries(if you take them). So yes Int is very important to an alchemist, but it also depends on what kind of role you are trying to fill. There's nothing wrong with a melee alchemist using a str mutagen.

Melee: Str > Int > Con > Dex = Wis > Cha OR Str = Int > Con = Dex > Wis > Cha

Ranged Bomber: Int > Dex > Con > Str = Wis > Cha

[Skerek]

n00bxqb wrote:

I plan to make a Javascript version at some point (primarily so I can get it on my Touchpad). However, I haven't programmed in Javascript in nearly a decade, so it's a matter of getting my brain to remember.

eh, i've been doing C++ recently, i'll also need to get my head to remember javascript, perhaps we can work together on this? Although i'm already not liking some design choices heroic rolls rather than a point buy or array system

[Gark the Goblin]

Bump, because I'd be interested to know what people think are the ability priorities for newer classes.