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So, apparently, I'm all into this world-building stuff (which I am). I do, however, really like and appreciate input from others! Which is my way of saying, "Please put input into my worlds, 'cause I greatly like to hear others' ideas!"
So here we go again!
I was speaking with my wife (who is working on teaching Edith Hamilton's Mythology) and she thought it would be a great idea for a campaign. And I agreed!
So, I'm looking to flush this out somewhat, with your help!
First:
I'm basing the world itself on the 3.0 D&D Deities and Demigods show for the Hellenistic World (based around mount Olympus) - but blending it with the other three "classic" worlds.
One of the interesting things I noticed was that, in the world of Egypt, the way the "Western Mountains"* were set up, they were actually North West... roughly the same direction of Olympus compared to Egypt. Interestingly, the Shadow Plane existed underneath both mount Olympus and the Western Mountains*. With the comparison of the World Tree for Norse, it turns out that it had one root deep into the depths of the shadow plane, and another on the adjacent material plane... very similar in composition to both the Egyptian realm and the Grecian one. The Blessed Fields of Egyptian lore sound similar to Elysium, by description, which is known to, but different from the Olympus locale in the Grecian pantheon stays. Also the shadow plane is the transitive plane between not one, but three different "planes of completely terrible".
The short version is: I'm blending the three worlds into one. This is not meant to be Earth-plus, but rather a fantasy game based of those three Earth pantheons. The conflicting world-creation myths are actually justifiable under this element, it's just that:
a) the deities were building different parts of the world, instead of the entirety of it
b) are all correct, only seen through the localized veil of mortal understandings, thus missing parts (can blend with a or c)
c) were done more-or-less as recorded, but by a now-fragmented uber-force that has become the various deities that are now known to mortals (I'm not favoring this one, honestly)
I'm also thinking that Russian pantheon - which is possibly the real source of the Vanir in this world -, a fraction of the Indian Pantheon, and the Japanese pantheon are present too, though I don't know that they'll really come into play, that's just me thinking about clearing up potential questions and/or extensive world-building. I'm generally ignoring the Gaelic, East-European, Middle-Eastern, and African pantheons, as well anything in the Americas.
One other thing that's important is actually making this world a fundamentally without many teleportation abilities. Otherwise, many of the epic tasks that deities do are effectively annulled. One other thing, although I'm thinking of mostly using the Deities and Demigods stats, I'm changing a few things, primarily limiting the power of deities to just make stuff (which denies the proper place of the craftsman-deities), as well as limiting the non-heroic** levels pretty heavily (otherwise the deities seem rather unimpressive, even with their ~60HD). One other thing I'm thinking of is rebuilding their rather unoptimized class levels a bit where it would make sense.
At any rate, for a time-period, I'm blending a few different ones. While the Greeks and the Romans are somewhat going at it, I'm also going to put this somewhere after the Troy-disaster (or something similar) and/or during the Rise of Rome (or whatever city-state), where the Grecian pantheon is beginning to be adopted by the Romans and blended as their own gods, and things are getting just a biiiiiit confusing for the divine world. Further mixing it up, the expanding Roman forces (with their heavily borrowed Grecian divinities) are coming into conflict in the north with the Norse and their deities. Further, due to Alexander's (or someone similar) recent incursions into Egypt, those two pantheons are beginning to clash as well. Effectively the Grecian pantheon is, whether they want to be or not, starting to get all up into everyone's grill, and everyone is having different reactions. Whether or not the deities knew of each other is an open question, and, much like everything else here, one I'm looking for feedback on.
So, that's what I've got so far. I'm actually working on a campaign, personally, but I'd like help fleshing out this setting. It seems like a great idea, in theory, but I'd like feedback. Any thoughts? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller? Beuller?
* Which, truth to tell, were not actually all that far west, nor were they the set of mountains that were the farthest west. So, that's kind of ironic, really.
** This does not mean that no one aside from the PCs have high levels. In fact, that's very much so not true. Instead, this means that the vast majority of people have lower levels, however prominently important entities (such as the Oracles of Delphi, who are, in fact, high-level Oracles) have moderate to high levels, and the PCs have that potential. What this does mean is that you won't go finding an extraordinarily high-level NPC at every city, unless they're the local Hero or Divine Servant or whatsoever have you.
Two points of clarification:
First - the divine world is getting confused because the Grecian gods are dealing with the identity crisis of becoming/being the new Greco-Roman gods, while simultaneously holding their own divinities, and experiencing what amounts to a divine clash due, not to their own devices, but to exceptionally powerful, arrogant mortals exporting divine presence into places it otherwise didn't go.
Second - the world set up is thus:
The great Western Mountains of the Egyptian Pantheon is actually the Hellenistic world - Olympus is the centerpiece of the Western Mountains. I strongly suspect any Underdark elements would be the kind of physical portal to the Shadow Plane - that is underneath Western Mountains, including Mount Olympus. To the north of the great range lies the Midgard made from defrosted ice floes that settled out mixed with giant (possibly titan) blood, bones, and flesh.
Speaking of, my supposition, currently, is that when the Norse gods fought the giant and made the "world", what they really fought was one of the ancient titans that escaped its eternal prison and went north, and was thus fodder for the Norse divinities - who, I might point out, in this case accomplished something that not even the Grecian divinities did. The southern Egyptian deities are those that created all from the Great River. I would also make it so the Norse dark elves, aka "drow" (also "trolls"), aka "underground dwarves" (I'm probably statting them out something similar to a combination Duergar and Midgard Dwarf [from Frostburn]) are the semi-mortal children of Hephaestus, the Craftsman of the Gods, and they are just keeping his divine essence going.
So, looking forward to feedback!
Sounds like it could be a very interesting setting.
I've a few questions for you, though:
1.) It seems in this setting a great deal of power would be derived from worship. I've come to this conclusion based upon what you've written about the "identity crisis" which the Greco-Roman gods face. If this is so, than are gods merely a manifestation/projection of minds of mortals-- or are they something more?
If the answer is no, and that they are indeed entities of their own, than many of them are undoubtedly very old and very powerful. Why then would they suffer any distress at the hands of mortals (the identity crisis thing).
Perhaps I am misunderstanding or looking too deep into this one.
2.) In the Greco-Roman area, are there as many demi-gods as portrayed in actual mythology? Is Zues still chasing skirts and making little baby bam-bams?
3.) In the Egyptian area, are the gods literally present? Are they living gods, waited on hand and foot by their mortal worshipers-- or is there a bloodline claiming divinity?
Each of the three pantheons you have mentioned are descended from prior god-like beings (giants, titans, etc.). In a setting like this, I'd love to see some of these primordials and the havoc they can cause. Namely, the remaining Titans (or Ice Giants, as they would be known to the Norse) and their children (not the pantheons mind you--their other children; hydras and sea-monsters and the like).
Damn, playing in a game featuring some of these creatures would be fun as hell. Scaling their mountainous frames, Shadow of the Colossus style, and wrecking their faces-- oh god, what good times.
Sounds like it could be a very interesting setting.
I've a few questions for you, though:
1.) It seems in this setting a great deal of power would be derived from worship. I've come to this conclusion based upon what you've written about the "identity crisis" which the Greco-Roman gods face. If this is so, than are gods merely a manifestation/projection of minds of mortals-- or are they something more?
If the answer is no, and that they are indeed entities of their own, than many of them are undoubtedly very old and very powerful. Why then would they suffer any distress at the hands of mortals (the identity crisis thing).
Perhaps I am misunderstanding or looking too deep into this one.
2.) In the Greco-Roman area, are there as many demi-gods as portrayed in actual mythology? Is Zues still chasing skirts and making little baby bam-bams?
3.) In the Egyptian area, are the gods literally present? Are they living gods, waited on hand and foot by their mortal worshipers-- or is there a bloodline claiming divinity?
Each of the three pantheons you have mentioned are descended from prior god-like beings (giants, titans, etc.). In a setting like this, I'd love to see some of these primordials and the havoc they can cause. Namely, the remaining Titans (or Ice Giants, as they would be known to the Norse) and their children (not the pantheons mind you--their other children; hydras and sea-monsters and the like).
Damn, playing in a game featuring some of these creatures would be fun as hell. Scaling their mountainous frames, Shadow of the Colossus style, and wrecking their faces-- oh god, what good times.
Huzzah! Thanks for the quick feedback! I also love your interpretation and ideas for the setting and adventures therein, too!
Also, that actually a good point with the worship/identity crisis. I'm not too sure, right now, however. See, at this point, I'm throwing out ideas as they come to me, and seeing what people think and how many holes they can poke/weak spots they can shore up into the campaign setting... much like you're doing!
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the gods are indeed ancient and personally powerful. Further, I'm going to speculate that the Grecian ones are some of the oldest extant, as, in order to make this work, they'd have to have defeated the Titans, one of which was Ymir of the northern people, and, since (according to the Dionysian mystery cult, Orphism) Zeus actually made mortals from the ashes of titans and the spirit of Dyionysus, I'm probably going to suggest that the ashes mixed with Amun-Re's tears, and the divine spirit of Dionysus (in his incarnation of Zegreus) that created humanity, possibly even making it so that the resultant mud melding with the blood of the titan slain by the Norse, and grew up as divine trees around the titanic blood, which was later formed into man by Odin et. al. It's a complex mythology, but it makes enough sense that I'll probably go with it. Also, I'm not certain that a particular deity intended to create human kind outside of the Norse, so that might have been the earliest people.
I can't find any indication of known creation myths by Russian myth, and Japanese don't have a myth for mortal existence, but they do for the existence of the first emperor, so mortals probably come from the method I've described. Chinese myth (which I'm ignoring because it doesn't actually need to be present, save as an intermediate to Japanese from Indian, and because this isn't Earth-plus, I can totally get away with it) seems to indicate the parasites of a destroyed deity became humanity. So, I think my "ashes+tears+blood+spirit-> tree => humanity" formula above works well enough (Indian religion having a few contradictory stories, some similar to the slain-giant, myth, some not, one confessing ignorance altogether, allowing me to side-step the issue). That leads to a almost-quasi-divine element of the human spirit (taken, as it is, effectively from divine waste/ruined left-overs).
Another nice thing about Japanese and Indian world-creation myths is that they're so meta or locally-focused, that I can safely ignore or explain away any inconsistencies.
So, on to deities-as-worship-focus, I'd say that, although the deities are indeed powerful, independently extant entities, the divine spirit within humanity (from three different sources, no less!) creates sort of a resonant feedback loop, so that while some power is granted through worship, its more accurate to say that worship focuses the power/persona of the deity worshiped. While the gods would exist without mortals and have vast powers without worship, it's a large amount of semi-divine spirits worshiping and focused upon a divine "idol" that creates (or rather influences the present form of) the resultant deity. If no mortals worshiped, the gods wouldn't need fear, but because mortals exist, and worship does grant benefits (and they aren't entirely evil in every way) the gods don't just slaughter them all, and instead are subtly influenced by the worship forms they present and the resultant mass-image they produce within the mortal minds to create their ultimate form.
Anyway, both Egyptian rulers and Japanese rulers claim divine bloodlines, which work fine. Demigods and divine-blooded monsters totally exist, although, again, it's more a Grecian thing than other cultures. In Greece-land, they can't simply claim divinity (because of all the divine baby-making going on), but in places like Egypt or Japan, with their more staid, stately gods, it totally makes sense.
In the Egyptian area, the gods are numinous presences (much like they also are in the Grecian area) with their statues and shrines and worship and such, but the end result is that, while not often present, personally in an incarnation, they do exist, and do interact with mortals (mostly through religious rituals).
Again, a world-reference:
The mountain range of the Western Mountains is huge, and isn't all just "mountainy" - there are lakes, rivers, and seas amongst the tall peaks, which dovetails nicely with Greece itself. I'm not sure where Roman-land actually is, yet. Possibly a wide valley-plain in the midst/west of the mountains/mount Olympus, while Norse-land is, well, to the north. I'm probably going to make it a vast, hilly area, for Rome-stand-in, with ancient, primeval forests to the north (thus the Vanir/Fey gods' origin places) and ending in the Norse roof-of-the-world area. To the east of the Egypt-lands (and north) there are the forests primeval (again the Vanir/fey) and to the further east is the Land of the Rising Sun (where it emerges from the twelve hours of the night).
The Sun itself is a tricky beast, as there are no less than one god for each pantheon associated with it, and sometimes more. So I'm working on a way to make those function properly together, over all.
So, yeah, thanks for the feedback, here's the best answers I can come up with right now, and I'm looking forward to more from you and others! :D
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Violently merging the pantheons might be an option, although it promises to be painful.
Red-bearded thunder god Thor *is* also red-bearded sky god Zeus (and also red-haired god of storms, Set, in lands where he is not so well-loved), and his maimed father/king goes by Odin or Uranos or Osiris, depending on who you ask.
Apollo is Ra in the south, and Sol in the north. Isis and Freyja are the same beautiful and unpredictable magic goddess, and might also be Hecate, to the Romans.
Other gods are totally regional. Bast is Bast, and is not worshipped among the Northmen or the Romans.
Red-bearded thunder god Thor *is* also red-bearded sky god Zeus (and also red-haired god of storms, Set, in lands where he is not so well-loved), and his maimed father/king goes by Odin or Uranos or Osiris, depending on who you ask.
Apollo is Ra in the south, and Sol in the north. Isis and Freyja are the same beautiful and unpredictable magic goddess, and might also be Hecate, to the Romans.
Other gods are totally regional. Bast is Bast, and is not worshipped among the Northmen or the Romans.
+1 to this idea; would totally make sense that the gods have different reputations amongst different cultures as they would probably have interacted differently with each. Also, the creation myths might have been passed unto humans by the gods, but each culture interpreted them differently (which explains the inconsistencies).
Violently merging the pantheons might be an option, although it promises to be painful.
Red-bearded thunder god Thor *is* also red-bearded sky god Zeus (and also red-haired god of storms, Set, in lands where he is not so well-loved), and his maimed father/king goes by Odin or Uranos or Osiris, depending on who you ask.
Apollo is Ra in the south, and Sol in the north. Isis and Freyja are the same beautiful and unpredictable magic goddess, and might also be Hecate, to the Romans.
Other gods are totally regional. Bast is Bast, and is not worshipped among the Northmen or the Romans.
+1 to this idea; would totally make sense that the gods have different reputations amongst different cultures as they would probably have interacted differently with each. Also, the creation myths might have been passed unto humans by the gods, but each culture interpreted them differently (which explains the inconsistencies).
Really, this is one of the first things I thought of when taking this idea on, however, each of the deities are so different from each other (and their paternal relationships so opposed) that any sort of chronology is all over the place. I love the images you guys paint of it (far more evocative than my own meanderings), but the other thing I thought of is...
Conflict between the pantheons might still be more interesting.
... this. Also...
It was pretty common among old pantheistic cultures to do exactly this. Assume that another cultures gods were really the same as there own, just under different names and seen from different viewpoint.
... this. I don't want this to just be "Earth Plus", as I've said, and this kind of heads back into that direction. THAT SAID, I'm still giving it a thought, and you guys can still probably totally sway me. A little later I'll try posting my hypothetical chronology based on the current set up (in which the Greeks are actually only slightly newer than the Norse, despite what I said earlier).
Alexander the Great himself merged Zeus with Ammon..so why not..The Romans in particular were inveterate stealers of other peoples gods..pretty much every one of the local Gaulish and British dieties was shoehorned into one of the Roman ones.
Facinating.
Would also like to note that especialy among romans, the fusing of pantheons was not uncommon. The Ptolemys of Egypt merged ideas of Demeter and Circes into Isis, and also strait out adapted Isis worship, especialy as a way to support their claim to the throne.
It may be interesting to have that overlap, and have the true gods be a group that no one pantheon has a true handle on. There could be overlap with differing names and some gods ommited from certain pantheons. The Norse acnowledgeing no Sobek, and Egyptians having no Ice deity named to them.
However, they both have red haired tricksters who father monsters. Set and Loki. But is all Set worship of the same red haired god? Perhaps Thor/Zeus is an aspect of Set?
Lots of potential for a tangled web of theology.
Edit: Set and others already said it more succinctly.
Alrighty! My little one's bath finished, I can now attempt to write up a hypothetical very vague chronology. Please bear in mind I'm not rejecting the same-but-different-names theory posted by Set above, however, this was something I was working on while I was unaware of others' posts. I'm still able to be swayed, however this is just a very preliminary rough draft and I'm curious as to what you guys think.
Also, bear in mind I'm not going purely history on this, but am heavily influenced by the D&D 3.0 book Deities and Demigods, which took its own spin on history/myth.
In the beginning: Void/Chaos.
Shortly thereafter: Brahman (who is also Ptah) birthed himself from himself by himself with himself. He also schismed into two. Splitting off into the stable (if overly-lonely) Atum and the more morphic and (divinely) unstable Brahma (who began to go about shedding deific particulates of himself everywhere, thus the Indian pantheon comes into existence). The Indian gods eventually shed into/resulted in the Japanese gods. Further shedding of microscopic divine particulates result in various spirits in all sorts of different things.
Meanwhile: the Egyptian cycle continued and Ma'at was formed as the world was. Two important events occurred from this.
... First: The divine law of Maat, that is law of (super)natural stability and order of all creation was passed on (via the schismed Brahma/Ptah) to the Indian pantheon. That law was taken and codified and clarified by the time the Japanese pantheon came into existence, ergo the Shinto philosophy and ethos. This is reflected in the similarity of Egyptian Ka with more eastern Ki (also, Ki).
... Second: the world created by the work of the deities resulted in Gaia (earth) and Uranus (sky)* which, of course results in the Grecian cycle of myths.
After this, once the Greek pantheon had sealed the titans away, one managed to either escape or not; either way he simply spontaneously formed new gods, who destroyed him (thus the Norse pantheon came into existence).
During all this, the wild/trade/wealth spirits of Japan-land migrated north west, away from their more ordered brethren, collecting a number of the wild Indian-land spirits as they passed through (mating and creating a new race), and bringing all these into the western lands where some of the Grecian pantheonic descendants had reached, and these divinely-descended beings created the fey, aka the Vanir, continuing to travel West/North West. Enter the Norse Aesir/Vanir conflicts.
Before the Vanir, Zeus turned the Zagreus-eating titans to ash, Amun-Re cried his tears (flowing up north, probably a subtle influence of Brahma), claiming Zagreus-spirit-infused ash as mud that flowed into Ymir's blood, from whence sacred trees infused with the essence of Zagreus sprang. At some unknown point thereafter, Odin and a few cronies created humanity from the trees (probably starting with Manu).
In the midst of all this, Gaia got busy with Nu (which might have been because Uranus, after being such a jerk, changed her tastes around, although Pontus may or may not have been involved, it's all very sordid)
Humanity spread from there.
Fast forward through time.
The rise of the Romans through various chicanery (it's worth noting that the Roman wolf-mother is similar in theme to some Japanese wolf-as-goddesses (such as Amaterasu, so that might bear looking into).
And here we are at this point in the campaign (the starting point).
SO. That's the vague, super-fast chronology. What do you guys think? Anyone care to give a crack at an alternate chronology using Set's idea? When/where/how did things rise? In short "Wat happen!!" in that format.
Also, I'm totally jockying for people to add to my other world-building thread, and not afraid to use this as a platform to advertise it! :D
* It's worth noting that I've always envisioned the "pairing" of Uranus and Gaia to be visualized by lightning striking the earth. Just imagine a constant stream of electrical "discharge" (not to mention the radiation build-up that would have resulted in such constant energy) repeatedly 'striking' the planet**, and from that vast amount of energy exchange new Powers rising. This is what Kronus (in my "vision") caused to cease.
** Yes, I'm aware that's not how lightning works. This is semi-allegory, semi-pseudo-science explanation for the rise of gods and via mythic natural-esque events.
Oof! Lots of blend-them votes here. So, in that case, as I've got to put my baby to sleep, let's here your counters! Give me your ideas! How did the world come about? What happened? I'm all ears!
ARG, PAIZO, YOUR TIME-OUT-TOO-LATE-TO-EDIT THING BIT ME SO HARD. UGH. SO INCREDIBLY IRRITATING.
Ugh, I'd just finished editing my other post (a process which took longer than normal because of some internet slow-down issues I've been experiencing recently) and, when I updated, and *BAM* lost it all because I'd been ten minutes over the mark. I can't even get back and post it in a new post, and, although I usually copy my post just in case this sort of thing happens before posting, in this particular case, I didn't have it copied because I'd just edited in the lines (you'll see them below) and had copy/pasted that. So, now, I get those in this post too, exactly as the other was going to be. ... yay.
ANYWAY, here we go, and I'll try to make it cleaner/clearer this time, though I think I'm actually going to lose some clarity/cohesion, unfortunately. Most of my second-posts do.
SO: to clarify: the "oof" in the previous statement was of surprise, not of disappointment, as I'd been ninja'd twice in the posting of my chronology.
Second, I'm going to need feedback. I need you guys to help me out with the fusion-of-deities idea, because although I'm often knowledgeable in broad surveys of religions, often I'm lacking in some of the finer details.
I really like the concept of Thor=Zeus=Set, when viewed through different lenses, especially since they're such different critters from one another, and I'm surprised, because I never gave Zeus or Set red hair, mentally. So, it's a fascinating conceptual link between them. I especially like the idea of "core" deities v. "peripherals" and wonder what each are, and what's the difference between them. Are those "core" deities independent creatures who exist on their own but are seen through a lens of localized faith via humanity? Are those "peripheral" deities nothing more than divinely-empowered illusions, dependent upon mortal worship to continue? Or is it the other way around? Or is it something else entirely? Are there some sort of labyrinthine divine politics at work, like an Illuminate-of-the-Gods, seeking to eventually set themselves up to rule sans-the-outsiders? Or what?
I've tried coming up with a deity fusion world myself in the past, but I run into several problems right away, starting with "who meshes with who?". For one, the Kronos/Zeus relationship really doesn't blend with the Odin/Thor relationship. Like, at all. Nor does the relationship and history of Zeus and his siblings fit with Set (although there is a nice comparison of Hades=underworld and brother to Zeus v. Osiris=underworld, and brother to Set). And who's the Egyptian equivalent? Ra? Er... Kronos doesn't seem like Ra at all.
But then again, I've seen several similarities between the Zeus/Hercules and the Odin/Thor relationship (as well as the Odin/Ymir relationship of son-killing-father). Herc and Thor are even both the super-strong half-divine sons of the local pantheon head with a giant/mortal that's not the chief of the pantheon's wife! ... it's just too bad they don't have anything else in common. You know, like adventures, personality, story, or anything. At all. Maaaaaaaaaybe a predilection for bludgeoning weapons. And again, who's their Egyptian equivalent/counterpart? Sobek? Really? Or, if Thor->Set, than Thor/Herc are really all about murdering their brother and nephew to gain their grandfather's place of supremacy in the pantheon? Eh... that seems... out of character.
I'm not actually saying I'm against the "core" v. "peripheral" idea that Set espoused and others boosted. In fact, I really like the "fusion or illusion" idea I wrote up there. I'm just telling you my problems creating it on my own. So, really, that's what I'm talking to you guys for. We need people to answer some questions for us and this world.
---------------------------
Who/what are the "core/shared" and the "peripheral/unique" divinities?
--> We need a list and comparison of the core/shared
... ---> how are they similar?
... ---> how are they different?
... ... ---> how do we reconcile the differences?
--> We need a list and comparison of the peripheral/unique
... ---> how/why are they different?
... ... ---> how do we reconcile the differences?
--> What is the actual nature of the divine?
... ---> Are the two types the same or different from each other?
... ... ---> If the same, why are some prolific and some not?
... ... ---> If the different, how do we reconcile the differences and how did the "different" ones come into existence?
Who/what/when/where/how was the world/were people created?
(We know our "end goal", we just need to reverse engineer it to get there)
--> We need a list and comparison of the origin stories
... ---> how are they similar?
... ---> how are they different?
... ... ---> how do we reconcile the differences?
How/why did those differences proliferate?
--> We need an idea of what really happened and how it partially translated to each different people group
---------------------------
The short version is that we need an "actual/real" history that meshes well enough (and believably enough) with the "fictional" history of the disparate local people groups to explain to ourselves how and why that happened.
Now, you'll notice I didn't fully answer all those questions above myself (though I answered the most pressing/broad-reaching ones or sidestepped issues entirely with my chronology). I'm still working on it, and mostly I'm letting the mythologies do the "heavy lifting" for me, while I just patch things together in a way that makes sense to me. The same is true for you guys. I don't expect all the questions to be answered in a first go from you guys either. I just want us all to know what we need to do to get this puppy's world base off the ground!
I like the different-pantheon approach I give above. I also like the different-lens theory Set espoused. So build! Poke holes! I often don't see the flaws in my own theories, so I need others to point them out and/or help me patch them up! Let me see what you guys have! ALSO, feel free to give me alternate chronologies! If you're inspired by a multi-pantheon, but don't feel the flow of mine, make your own lifetime. I'd like to see it! If you love the gods-are-multi-faced, then give us that spin instead!
If you feel like just saying "meh", then, I think, that'll be fine. Post counts and all that. :)
* No, I'll be the judge, and it totally wasn't worth it. Not that I'm bitter. No, certainly not. I'm not bitter, like the dark, eternal unending stain of coffee on my soul's tongue**. Definitely not.
** You SEE why I should already be in bed? This is actually funny to me. Ugh.
Second: the world created by the work of the deities resulted in Gaia (earth) and Uranus (sky)* which, of course results in the Grecian cycle of myths.
Expanding upon this a bit - Gaia (Female), who is also Geb (Male) mates with Uranus (Male), who is also Nut (Female).
Through their union, they birth the primordial gods (the titans or giants, depending upon whom you ask). These primordials have children of their own (the powers you mention in your first bullet), which become the Egyptian, Greek, and Norse pantheons. Some of these gods are merely aspects of the same deity (such as Zues/Thor, who slew Cronos/Ymir, and took command of the Greek pantheon, but is still very much in tied to the Norse pantheon, which is ruled over by Odin/Ares, who is both as a father and son to Zues/Thor).
I like the idea that the Indian/Japanese gods are more ethereal than their western counterparts, which are much more earthly. Called spirits (or fey/vanir amongst the westerners) by most, they are sometimes the benefactors of mankind, but just as likely they are not (think Loki/Shiva, both of whom are good or evil, and sometimes both).
Further expanding a bit, Zeus/Thor is also known as Set in the Egyptian pantheon, which is ruled over by Amun-Ra/Apollo. When humanity is shaped by the gods (from dirt/dust or trees, depending upon whom you ask), Zues/Thor/Set discovers that he is more powerful when the mortals revere him and so he wages war with Amun-Ra/Apollo in hopes of garnering control in the south (he did not wage war in the north against Odin/Ares because they have a much stronger relationship/reverence for one another).
This is why Zeus/Thor's Set aspect is known as a destroyer. Also, many of his more monstrous children plagued the southerners. Amun-Ra, who was loved by his people, fought against Set. Their eternal battle would be visualized by the Egyptian people as a struggle between Light/Good and Night/Evil. Zeus/Thor/Set would go so far as to attempt to murder Horus, which is a lesser aspect of Amun-Ra/Apollo (remember the concept of divine shedding).
Oh, and don't forget - these three gods (Zeus/Thor/Set, Odin/Ares, and Amun-Ra/Apollo/Horus) fought together to usurp the titans, namely their ancestral father Cronos/Ymir. Thus, these three are brothers of a sort, and each incredibly powerful.
Nor does the relationship and history of Zeus and his siblings fit with Set (although there is a nice comparison of Hades=underworld and brother to Zeus v. Osiris=underworld, and brother to Set).
Here's my take on it: He isn't in opposition to Hades*, he is in opposition to Amun-Ra. Hades would be the judge of the dead, and thus more likely an aspect of the god Thoth (a lesser aspect of Ptah, maybe), who is said to judge the souls of the dead against Ma'at. You could further add Anubis to the mix, perhaps as another aspect of Thoth. Thus, the god that is Hades is also Thoth/Anubis, each a god of the dead (in one way or another).
The Egyptian aspect of Zeus, Set, is known as the Night because he travels through the underworld (to enter Amun-Ra's domain in the south) and is in opposition to Amun-Ra (the god of the sun, and of light), and believe he lives in the darkness for this reason.
*= Well, maybe he is. But, Amun-Ra is his big enemy. A conflict with Hades would probably be a much smaller concern for Zeus. Hell, maybe Hades is pissed off at Zeus for being such a badass and for stomping through his domain to facilitate his war with Amun-Ra (travel through the underworld might be quick and easy -- like the ethereal plane in D&D cosmology, or it might be the only way that a chief-pantheon god can enter into another chief-pantheon god's domain).
COUNTER: rather than a true history, it may be more interesting to have the nature of the gods be something unknowable to mortals.
The "Gods" of the pantheons may represent one or more actual divinities and the historys may be distorted through time or wholey fabricated. But then there could be a bleed over effect that is a hidden and sometimes feared aspect of the faith.
Lets use the equivilency of the dietys Loki and Set. They are the outsider gods and the father of Monsters. What if a cleric of Set, traveling abroad, finds the worg childeren of fenril respecting him as an agent of their Forefather. (Loki in Norse myth)
Perhaps the
The priests might want to keep this mysterious truth so tight under wraps, that no one could glean more than a few scraps of the true nature of the pantheon.
Alternatively, at the creation of the world, the pantheons split geographically from a common origin of sky and earth.
Alternatively, at the creation of the world, the pantheons split geographically from a common origin of sky and earth.
That's what I was thinking, with each pantheon controlled by a different deity from this time. Together these gods defeated the primordial gods and established their own rule separate from one another. I like the idea that Zeus/Thor established control in the Greece, Amun-Ra/Apollo established control in Egypt, and Odin/Ares established control in Scandinavia.
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Something is fubar on the boards tonight. I posted something about not giving up on the notion of totally different pantheons, and it totally vanished.
Other stuff I mentioned that vanished;
Any thoughts on a Babylonian/Sumerian/Persian sort of pantheon?
A different thought about merging pantheons is that the Norse pantheon already is a merged pantheon, part-Aesir and part-Vanir. I've always found Frigga to be terribly underused, and, IMO, a bit redundant. Replacing her completely with Freyja, joined to Odin in a loveless political marriage of convenience to cement the non-agression pact / alliance between his Aesir and her Vanir, could be interesting, and help provide a sort of 'explanation' for why Odin's wife is not the mother of his kids (since she may have married him long after they were born, and fill the 'evil step-mother' role, in the May/December romance that is the Asgardian royal marriage).
Freyja, with her seithr 'witchcraft,' and her falcon feather cloak and her fey magics, and her dominion over the Valkyries, seems *much* more intriguing as Queen of Asgard than Frigga. She would be almost untouchable, because of her status. Not merely the wife of Odin, she's also the living personification of the alliance between the Aesir and the Vanir, and insult to her could lead to a civil war in Asgard, if she feels the offense is mortal!
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That's what I was thinking, with each pantheon controlled by a different deity from this time. Together these gods defeated the primordial gods and established their own rule separate from one another. I like the idea that Zeus/Thor established control in the Greece, Amun-Ra/Apollo established control in Egypt, and Odin/Ares established control in Scandinavia.
The Olympians had Zeus (sky), Poseidon (sea) and Hades (earth) as the 'big three' of the elemental split.
In the Ennead, Geb (earth), Shu (sky) and Tefnut or Nethys (water) would be the elemental three, but they aren't the 'big three' of their pantheon (Ra, Osiris and Isis are 'bigger names').
For the Norse, there is no specific earth god, and the sea god, Aegir, is a nobody, really. Only the sky-god (Odin) is a 'big three' sort of dude, although his brothers, Vili and Ve, could well fill those sorts of roles, if we knew anything about them other than that they helped him kill Ymir, and then mysteriously wandered off, never to be mentioned again...
If I were to mix them up by an elemental motif, I'd want the high hills of Rome and the Italian Alps as the residence of the 'sky father', Egypt, with its vast stone monuments and deserts, as the residence of the 'earth goddess' and the Vikings, with their longships and mastery of the seas, the domain of the 'sea god.'
(Mixing that up and having the Northmen the wind-god's children and the Romans the masters of the seas, could work, thematically, as well.)
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If smooshing things together is the route taken, Greek Typhon as Egyptian Apep as Norse Jormungandr (as Babylonian Tiamat, as Biblical Leviathan, etc.) is indeed, fun. :)
This is great! BUT! Its important to have a good handle on Mythology & history before you begin developing the world building.
To be continued......
Short version, I propose a two-world dynamic. Basically, I say we make two worlds: one with split pantheons and one with fused.
Also, my Internet is currently down and I'm borrowing an iPad, so I can't really talk much right now (finally, right? ; D), but I really like some of the ideas here. Keep them coming!
Just wondering how the Chinese Celestial Bueraucracy fits into all this.
The Monkey King is probably an aspect of the Indian Hanuman who assisted Vishnu/Rama .
Akkadian Ishtar is Phoenecian Ashtart/Ashtoreth,Greek Aphrodite,Roman Venus
Phoenecian Tanit is Egyptian Neith
the more you go into this the more it becomes obvious that there was a central myth that fractured at some point in far prehistory
One thing that is common to every mythology is the Flood
An idea I had before and used to great effect in a campaign with similar multiple pantheons. As a student of mythology and an ex-archaeologist I have always found the similarities between Gods interesting.
Gods in the campaign I am talking about came about before mortals but had a limited remit. In game terms a primary and secondary Domain.
Later, as they created and were worshipped by mortal races, they developed 'aspects' - gaining a third Domain, but based on the 'spin' put on them by mortal worship and the power which came from it.
To illustrate - A Thunder God starts with the Air and Glory domains.
The Greeks worhsip him as 'Zeus' and add the Law Domain - as he is the King of the Gods reflecting a very patriarchal society of cultured city builders.
The Russians worship him as 'Peroon' and add the Fire domain - as in Russia - lighting strikes have PLENTY of sap-filled pine trees to hit and forest fires rage each year because of it.
They are the same God - but different cultural incarnations.
If course, the followers of each don't have to know that - perhaps both adding the War Domain to the God down the line as they conflict with each other.
Of course they could find out about it or know about it anyway. It would then lead to denominational conflicts or perhaps a binding basis for alliance between two otherwise differing states. The possibilities are varied and limited only by your imagination.
I love some of these concepts and ideas. Still can't talk too much, now, but DMWellard (and anyone else suggesting other pantheons): I really like the cool analysis, but was attempting to avoid the "all pantheons" approach. Basically pairing it down to: Norse, Grecian, Egyptian, Indian (Hindu), and Japanese. That bypasses the need for all of the others. That said, if people really want to, we could add more, it's just that I was attempting to avoid having too many irons in the fire, so to speak. :)
Also, on the fused-gods theory: explain the nature of Grecian demigods in this case, please!
Also, also: I love the thoughts here! This stuff is great!
EDIT: just a note, I'd be curious if anyone would like to take a stab at either clarifying my chronology, or making their own based off an opposing (or similar) theory. Also, pobbes, I wasn't so much suggesting that the Greco-Romans be fused, as I was that they are the same gods, just switching under the enormous weight of divine influence. Also, I love the separate-world idea. I suggest, however, that they do, physically, eventually, border one another. It's just so vast that it may well be virtually impossible to travel by land. Effectively, two planes of existence overlap in certain directions from each other. The shadow plane (under ground, recall) would be filled with such links. A place like the Offering Fields (which is also Elysium) would be very interesting precisely because mortal spirits there might eventually run into each other... and wonder how, exactly, these pagan freak-shows got here to paradise (neither the offering fields, nor Elysium were the residence of the gods, just that nice place some few virtuous mortal souls go in the afterlife).
Also, I really like how Caliburn101 gave three levels of domains. Interesting indeed, for a fused-pantheon idea.
Finally, feel free to insert ideas that disagree with others here. Right now, I think we have two powerful ideas, good enough for two different worlds to build: both a rival pantheons (akin to the middle east style, but applied to non-middle east deities), and a "core" v. "local" set of gods, some fused, some not. Also, also, also, it's annoyingly hard to correct all the auto-correct on an iPad. Buh. Also type in general. :)
Again, to clarify,
Again, to clarify,
Yeah, I have no idea how this sentence is supposed to go. I'll just blame the iPad. :)
So, update on the computer stuff: basically, it seems to be my router; I've reconfigured my computer in the least comfortable/practical way possible* to temporarily bypass it (look, we didn't design the place, we just live in it. :D), so I can't do my epic posts, but I can do okay, probably better than a keyboard that adjusts everything I type as I type it.
The other reason I'm posting here now, is to give an idea about the concept for deity stats.
In a fusion/illusion world (where there are some "core" gods shared by all and some "peripherals"), I'm thinking something along the lines of having one of the sets of deities being something akin to a super-outsider: basically 20 HD of outsider, and 40 HD of whatever, like the book Deities and Demigods has. The other, I'm considering making a gestalt of: 20 HD outsider-and/or-undead/two different PC classes + 40 HD of whatever. I'm thinking the former is the "illusory" gods - basically those outsiders who come into existence because enough people believe in them, while the latter are the core, "real" gods (such as the oft-bandied about Zeus/Thor/Set). IF I go with that, I may replace the "-and/or-undead" part of the gestalt with "-and-dragon", but I don't know. I know it's not terribly important, but the reason it occurs to me to do this is two-fold.
1) it lets me have a handle on (roughly) what a god could do and/or be capable of, so we don't start just making stuff up
2) it limits the gods in a real way, but not very much, practically; this means that there are rules they have to follow (no matter how chaotic), but that they can basically get away with what they want (no matter how lawful); thus human mortals can come close to rivaling, but never exceeding the gods (ergo the superhuman feats, humans ascending, half-human/half-god uber-stunts, etc)
3) it lets Zeus start launching lightning bolts whenever he dag-gum-well pleases, 'cause he's the thundering god of lightning, for crying out loud (it's just not quite as powerful** as those Haephestus is making for him)
That said, it might be more interesting to play it the other way. Literally, the congealed focus of human worship (remember, tiny, fragmentary elements of divine spirit imbued in mortal flesh) creates a super-force (and over-lays a super force on top of the "real" creatures), but those super-forces are, by necessity, limited in the scope they can wonder. Also, if we go with "different worlds" theory (even if those worlds are linked), again the made-by-consensus gods are limited to the areas they exist in, while the independent-existence gods are not limited in that way, and make take on different divine "clothes", based on the world they're in.
In the split pantheon thing, I'd totally blend the best elements of dragon (specified type), outsider (generic, or possibly according to alignment), and undead (probably a combo of vampire/lich, only with no need for a phylactery, but one-or-more specific "stay-dead" weaknesses) [result: d12, best BAB and saves, 8+INT skills, tons of immunities, natural spell-casting progression, nifty spell-likes, practical immortality, huge boosts to all their scores] with two 20-level PC classes of their choice (possibly even shifting over time, in the case of Zeus-to-Jupiter). Then they get another 40HD to do whatever with. The lack of epic/mythic rules in Pathfinder can be side-stepped for now via taking other classes, prestige classes, and the like.
For base ability scores: 18 (as if rolled); +2 ("prodigy" from D&D 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide 2, grants an additional +4 on related skills and checks); +6 ("inherent", one higher than the maximum possible mortal amount); +20 ("racial", to my knowledge, no race has a higher racial bonus, correct me if I'm wrong, in which case we'll go with that); and +8 ("enhancement"; that's why gods don't normally bother with too many magic items of their own that enhance that kind of thing) for 18+2+6+20+8, or a total of 54 (modifier +22). They then get +15 points of disposable increases due to level up, and up to +20 points additionally (just for being a god). This would make gods capable of the crazy things we see in the myths, innately, but still give them solid limits, in most cases. It's also much higher than the "standard" in D&D (which was 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24 before racial scores; or, as I interpreted it, six "24"s [I said it was 18 rolled with a +6 inherent bonus] with 16 extra points to spend as they saw fit), but the enhancement bonuses simply make sense (otherwise, why wouldn't all the gods have tons of enhancement bonus items), the inherent bonus I give, because, really, all the gods would have granted themselves said bonuses long ago (or at least +5) if they didn't come with them, the racial bonuses I gave because they're gods (and they aren't, for example, dwarves), and the prodigy bonuses... again, that's because they're gods, not piddling mortals. One thing I didn't do (because it's complicated and rather bizarre) is add the Paragon template from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook. I'm not really even considering it at this time, as it's both inane and, as I said before, complicated, but I'm putting it on the table for consideration, because, hey, we're talking about gods here. Another possibility is the Monster of Legend template from the Monster Manual 2. Regardless, this specific set of benefits would not apply to the hosts of lesser divinities in areas like India-land, and Japan-land (especially since so many of those gods can so easily be over-come). Basically, those are like half-gods or even just mighty outsiders: powerful spirits, but less potent over-all.
Now, if you guys disagree with the ability score thing, okay, that's actually fine; I admit the above is quite powerful. What I can easily see doing: replacing or eliminating the racial scores (so that's a base of 34) AND/OR replacing or ignoring the prodigy (so that's a base of 32 or 52). The PLUS is that removal of prodigy means that gods certainly do recognize the substantial abilities of a mortal who is a prodigy, while the removal of the racial means that gods are more likely to respond to the racial boons of non-gods, and the removal of either or both means that the gods variance in ability scores by choice is more dramatic than the high-powered version I supply above; the MINUS is that the removal of these things makes gods less "SUPAH-FLY" just for being gods, and there's less of a difference between "powerful-but-mortal" and "god".
Handling god-spawn:
When a god-spawn is born (half mortal and half divine), it gains unique advantages for being itself; it's not a god, but it almost always has a special "something" about it that lets others know it's the scion of a divinity. Roll 1d6 and choose from the following, according to roll:
1) Take the god's ability score modifiers for this one. Roll 1d6. That's how many ability score increases the god-spawn gains. Roll 1d6 for each ability score increases [1) STR, 2) DEX, 3) CON, 4) INT, 5) WIS, 6) CHA] and apply the appropriate modifier as an increase to that ability score. Rolling the same number either a) causes multiple bonuses, b) causes no additional benefit and costs a roll, or c) is ignored and rolled again (meaning that if a person gains '6' ability increases, all of their scores are automatically affected, or if they roll '5' all but one, etc).
2) The gods' enhancement bonus is +8; roll 1d6 to determine how many ability scores a mortal gains this enhancement bonus to; roll 1d6 to determine which ability score gains this enhancement (handle overlaps as above).
3) The gods' inherent bonus is +6; handle this like the enhancement bonus above
4) The mortal gains a template (including, possibly, the prodigy template) which might be based on which god or what kind of god is the mortal's sire (Vanir = half-fey, good = half-celestial, evil = half-fiend, neutral = half-dragon, prodigy = the god's highest ability score, etc) or not (monster of legend, phrenic, etc).
5) The mortal gains a lesser ability in some way relating to the divinity (able to make wine, but otherwise like create water; able to become a specific, sacred animal or is a therianthrope of an appropriate kind of animal; has a lesser ability similar to the deity's, like an aura of awe [especially appropriate for pharaohs and emperors], etc)
6) Roll again, twice, gaining the results of both rolls.
Obviously, the above methods rely on a lot of dice rolling. I can be fun to make a random new monster that way. BUT, it might suit the story to choose something instead. It can be either from the list above, or it can be something you make up. But those are my ideas. They generally cover everything but "ah, it's a monster" aspect, which can actually mostly be done via applying the above to various animals, magical beasts, or other monsters, as odd as that might seem (it's not too uncommon in myth, actually). Anything that that can't cover... well, that's basically up to the individual GM to build themselves, 'cause I really can't come up with any other guidelines, in my mind at this time. Unless some of you guys can help me! >:D
* It's the only way possible, really, without a router. Either this, or have cords stretching across a quarter of the house. Well, either that or inside the closet... but it doesn't fit there, so, you know. It's set up the way it is until I find a way to fix the router, most likely.
** Technically, a blue dragon's breath weapon is more powerful than a +5 huge keen thundering electric burst javelin/spear/what-have-you, BUT Zeus would be limited to the "breath" (which doesn't actually have to be "breath", just like Zeus doesn't have to be a "dragon") every 1d4 rounds, while he can launch the others at four-or-more (depending) per round.
Now, to more fully reply to the stuff I wanted to before.
*Warning: Walls of Text*
So, I think the concept is pretty awesome because I have a deep obsessive love with both ancient history and mythology. However, because of this I had some thoughts which I want to try to add while not coming across as the celestial monkey-wrench thrower. Anyways, here goes.
Actually, we like celestial monkey-wrenches around here.
SPOILER ONE: on the different themes
Pretty much accurate. Except for one thing, from what I recall, in history, the Roman pantheon, too, was originally a local thing that just so quickly adopted the Grecian elements that they rapidly became indistinguishable. Other than that, I wholly agree with most of what you're saying.
One thing I suggest, again, is making two settings, here. One with split pantheons, one with fused.
SPOILER TWO: on different worlds
I really, really like this. I do think the worlds should be accessible by one another, but really, it should by like adjacent planes - you can walk all the way to the next one, but it's still a different world. The best part is that this can be done with both "settings" - the fused pantheon and the separate. Nice addition.
An idea I had before and used to great effect in a campaign with similar multiple pantheons. As a student of mythology and an ex-archaeologist I have always found the similarities between Gods interesting.
Gods in the campaign I am talking about came about before mortals but had a limited remit. In game terms a primary and secondary Domain.
Later, as they created and were worshipped by mortal races, they developed 'aspects' - gaining a third Domain, but based on the 'spin' put on them by mortal worship and the power which came from it.
To illustrate - A Thunder God starts with the Air and Glory domains.
The Greeks worhsip him as 'Zeus' and add the Law Domain - as he is the King of the Gods reflecting a very patriarchal society of cultured city builders.
The Russians worship him as 'Peroon' and add the Fire domain - as in Russia - lighting strikes have PLENTY of sap-filled pine trees to hit and forest fires rage each year because of it.
They are the same God - but different cultural incarnations.
If course, the followers of each don't have to know that - perhaps both adding the War Domain to the God down the line as they conflict with each other.
Of course they could find out about it or know about it anyway. It would then lead to denominational conflicts or perhaps a binding basis for alliance between two otherwise differing states. The possibilities are varied and limited only by your imagination.
I love this stuff. I suggest that this is something that may in fact happen in the core/peripheral worlds. This, combined with Set's take on the elemental stuff, (and GM Wellard's comment of "central myth") is probably the best way to handle that one. Now, we need that central, fractured myth.
DetectMagic: while I like a lot of the flavor of your write-up (night/passing through the underworld, etc), neither Thoth nor Ptah are really the guardian(s) of the underworld. For that you have Osiris (who was killed by Set and raised by his wife, thus becoming ruler of the afterlife) and Anubis (judge of the dead spirits, thus the guardian of the afterlife). One interesting thing is that the Greeks note that Hades was made ruler of the dead by Zeus. If Zeus is really Set, and Set kills Osiris, and Osiris thus becomes ruler of the dead, that actually dovetails pretty conveniently for the fused-gods setting.
The fact that the Norse pantheon is already a "fused" pantheon is what I'm talking about with the Russian lore - it is my belief (for purposes of these campaign settings) that the Vanir are, in fact, the fey, and that they are the Russian deities that come in from the east (which is where, if I recall correctly, the Vanir come from anyway). My guess is that they did something stupid to their realm/area which drove them off and out, and required them to settle in the Norse realm.
I don't think that all the gods should be fused throughout all the pantheons. I think only a certain core should be, and the rest are the peripherals.
Also, to clarify, what I mean by "fusion" isn't "take two different gods, in game, and smoosh them together until you have one god", but rather "oh, look, they're actually the same god, they just wear this mask here and that mask there".
Another thing I want to clarify, is I'd really like two different takes on it - a fused-world (with peripherals) and a separated world (without). In either event, we need a decent (if not comprehensive) understanding of a) what the gods are and b) the general history of the world and how it flows around them. I've given out one theory that talks about the split-pantheon approach. I need some feedback on it. I also need someone to come up with that central myth, 'cause I've taken multiple cracks at it and still can't come up with something decent. As far as a starting point, most legends agree that there was a huge flood at some point and/or primordial chaos was a void and/or sea/ocean (or a bunch of milk with a turtle involved... sordid business, that) all full of potential, but not of anything else. From that: stuff happens (usually, but not always, land). For the fused pantheon start, I'll go so far as to say that probably from the water comes sky and land. From the sky and land melding comes the Grecian pantheon. From the sky and water:??? (maybe the corporeally unstable indian/japanese gods that keep dropping bits of themselves everywhere?), and from the water and land: various ocean-gods. Sound good? :D
I personally prefer them as separate pantheons rather than fused deities. Not that the fused idea isn't good but the idea that their similarities brought them to each others knowledge but their differences despite their similarities causing issues and conflict between them I find is an interesting one.
I'm currently working on that kind of real-Earth mythology adaptation thing, too. Feels a huge loss to create a homebrewd universe without using History's inspiration.
My tactics is more to determine a way to become Gods (to explain actual Gods and to lure players into insane quests for their own chance at it); I went after days of Wikipedia reading for Hindu Gods to be the fundamental principle behind the whole universe and to explain from a naturalistic perspective the Evolution of PC races and their accession to pantheons. Most are human. Norse pantheon is Dwarf. Hindu mostly Elf.
For fun's sake:
Name; Alignment; Portfolios; Domains; Weapon
Horus; LG; God of the sky, power, war and hunting; Air, Glory, Good, Law, War; Longbow
Hathor; NG; Goddess of feminity, music, celebration, joy; Charm, Community, Good, Pleasure, Weather; Battle aspergillum
Apis; CG; God of virility, kingship, oracles; Chaos, Glory, Good, Luck, Strength; Light mace
Bastet; LN; Goddess of protection, domestics, vengeance, ointments; Community, Healing, Law, Protection, Retribution; Scizore
Isis; LN; Goddess of motherhood, magic, fertility, rebirth, the moon; Healing, Law, Magic, Protection, Renewal; Dagger
Osiris; LN; God of afterlife, undeath, silence, life; Darkness, Death, Law, Liberation, Nobility; Aklys
Ra; LN; God of creation, laws, the sun, the land; Animal, Glory, Law, Sun, Travel; Bec de corbin
Anubis; N; God of the dead, rites, stability; Death, Destruction, Liberation, Protection, Repose; Flail
Ptah; N; God of crafts, stability, stone, regeneration; Artifice, Darkness, Earth, Healing, Magic; Hammer, lucerne
Thoth; N; God of knowledge, mediation, scribes, philosophy; Knowledge, Nobility, Repose, Rune, Time; Terbutje
Seth; CN; God of anger, the desert, storms, foreigners; Chaos, Destruction, Madness, War, Weather; Khopesh
Sekhmet; LE; Goddess of warfare, fire, action; Destruction, Evil, Fire, Law, War; Bola
Sobek; NE; God of danger, fear, water, guards; Destruction, Evil, Protection, Strength, Water; Shotel
Nephtys; CE; Goddess of nursery, companionship, strategy, death; Chaos, Charm, Death, Evil, Trickery; Starknife
I personally prefer them as separate pantheons rather than fused deities. Not that the fused idea isn't good but the idea that their similarities brought them to each others knowledge but their differences despite their similarities causing issues and conflict between them I find is an interesting one.
This is one reason that I want to build two settings now. I see fantastic potential in both the fused and the different, and I'd like to explore them both. On an unrelated note, your avatar with the guy asleep while reading always makes me smile, and, for some reason, gives you a soft "voice" when I read your stuff.
I'm currently working on that kind of real-Earth mythology adaptation thing, too. Feels a huge loss to create a homebrewd universe without using History's inspiration.
My tactics is more to determine a way to become Gods (to explain actual Gods and to lure players into insane quests for their own chance at it); I went after days of Wikipedia reading for Hindu Gods to be the fundamental principle behind the whole universe and to explain from a naturalistic perspective the Evolution of PC races and their accession to pantheons. Most are human. Norse pantheon is Dwarf. Hindu mostly Elf.
For fun's sake:
Name; Alignment; Portfolios; Domains; Weapon
Horus; LG; God of the sky, power, war and hunting; Air, Glory, Good, Law, War; Longbow
Hathor; NG; Goddess of feminity, music, celebration, joy; Charm, Community, Good, Pleasure, Weather; Battle aspergillum
Apis; CG; God of virility, kingship, oracles; Chaos, Glory, Good, Luck, Strength; Light mace
Bastet; LN; Goddess of protection, domestics, vengeance, ointments; Community, Healing, Law, Protection, Retribution; Scizore
Isis; LN; Goddess of motherhood, magic, fertility, rebirth, the moon; Healing, Law, Magic, Protection, Renewal; Dagger
Osiris; LN; God of afterlife, undeath, silence, life; Darkness, Death, Law, Liberation, Nobility; Aklys
Ra; LN; God of creation, laws, the sun, the land; Animal, Glory, Law, Sun, Travel; Bec de corbin
Anubis; N; God of the dead, rites, stability; Death, Destruction, Liberation, Protection, Repose; Flail
Ptah; N; God of crafts, stability, stone, regeneration; Artifice, Darkness, Earth, Healing, Magic; Hammer, lucerne
Thoth; N; God of knowledge, mediation, scribes, philosophy; Knowledge, Nobility, Repose, Rune, Time; Terbutje
Seth; CN; God of anger, the desert, storms, foreigners; Chaos, Destruction, Madness, War, Weather; Khopesh
Sekhmet; LE; Goddess of warfare, fire, action; Destruction, Evil, Fire, Law, War; Bola
Sobek; NE; God of danger, fear, water, guards; Destruction, Evil, Protection, Strength, Water; Shotel
Nephtys; CE; Goddess of nursery, companionship, strategy, death; Chaos, Charm, Death, Evil, Trickery; Starknife
Nice. I don't know that I agree with Nephtys as being CE... I'd almost certainly say CN, though (as opposed to the N or CG she's usually presented as), primarily as she's kind to children and the dead, but not morally sound enough not to get her sister's* hubby drunk up enough to sleep with her so she can have "teh baybees" with him that aren't monsters. And still failed (sort of: Anubis was the result - you decide on whether a jackal-head is still a "monster" or not).
One of the other things I'd like to do with these deities is give them a range of weaponry that makes sense. For example, Zeus' "favored" weapon(s) is/are: javelin (currently, as javelins of lightning, don't you know), [short?] spear (makes sense as an addition to me, could be "short" or not, only that it's throw-able), club (it's throw-able and [possibly only in a fused pantheon] acts as a decent way to "segue" into Thor's hammer when he takes on a different aspect, possibly [replace by both spear and short spear otherwise]). This three-fold system really doesn't break the favored-weapon concept, so long as all three weapons are reasonably balanced by one another, most importantly make thematic sense, and also deal vaguely comparative amounts (no dagger+club+falchion, for example). Also, each deity's favored weapon doesn't need to be completely unique, just so long as it's actual set is (by pantheon, not a universal truth) - for example, if Zeus is javelin/spear/club, Hercules better not be those three specific, even if he's got club. Exceptions would probably exist, of course, but the most important thing is theme, I think.
Also worth noting, that I don't see the anything that indicates the Vanir came from the east online, so that's probably me. Wikipedia suggests that (among other things) they could be corrupted Latin deities (linked with Venus, in etymology) which fits with "from the (south) East", sort of, or they could be linked to the Anglo-Saxons (which is from the West, so no fit there), but also Indo-European or pre-Indo-European gods (which would be all over) so I'd say it's just as likely that they come from the East. Their link with gold, their propensity to see the future, and their association with both fertility and wisdom seem to link them, thematically in my mind at least, with the Eastern concepts of divinity. It doesn't work, cohesively, with fey as I understand them, but they are associated with elves, so there's that benefit.
As for the races, dwarves and elves are, in my estimation, linked strongly to the Norse; dwarves probably Hepaestus in the Grecian pantheon; elves... I don't know outside of the Vanir, as a whole. Gnomes aren't particularly Norse, they're more Anglo-Saxon, I think, so I'm going to ignore that element of their history and drop them into the Egyptian elements, which, to me, just kind of fits (illusion seeming to work there to me, for some reason). Halflings, I'll drop into the Grecian world as their propensity for "luck" seems to work best in Greece's presumptions of luck and how it works (that it's housed in the fore-brain could be linked to charisma and spacial reasoning i.e. athletics, like what the Greeks oft use). What say you?
* To be fair, her only options were her siblings, her parents, or her aunt/uncle (she had no cousins that I could tell), as the all were kind of... um... created... by their great grandfather pleasuring himself. So, their personal sexual escapades were kind of sabotaged from the beginning as being kind of cruel to someone in the family.
Terrific Stuff
That's awesome! I'm sorry about your troubles and I empathize completely, but I love your write up. I'm going to take a crack at integrating it with my above version to see what you guys think a little later!
I'm still waiting for a solid over-arching historical view of "what happen" with the fused pantheon! ;P :D
I love most all of what you guys've written so far. Keep up the great work!
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Ragnarok shall happen. A great reordering of the cosmos where some gods shall die and others rise to take their place. However, with the names and identities of the gods so muddled, not even the gods know for sure which gods the prophecies refer to.
Dotting for when I have time to finish reading this thread & posting my reply (I love mythology & pantheon-/world-building!).
...Sorry.
But carry on!
-- C.
Ragnarok shall happen. A great reordering of the cosmos where some gods shall die and others rise to take their place. However, with the names and identities of the gods so muddled, not even the gods know for sure which gods the prophecies refer to.
I like this idea a lot, and I mean a whole lot, however I'm going to suggest that, at the "start point" of the setting, Ragnarok has not happened yet (though is getting close(r)). That way it's usable with most mythology as-written.
One thing I think would be cool is, as part of the advancing timeline, Ragnarok occurs later in the Campaign Setting(s).
Another interesting (to me) thought is that, if Ragnarok occurs in, say, the fused Pantheon world, then, perhaps it's ALT (divided) pantheon Baldr that comes through and rules the new world (as Baldr was prophesied to do anyway). BUT, that's just a kind-of-nifty idea running through my head now. We might not want to go that direction (and I'm not sold on it either).
Anyway, I think Ragnarok should be part of the over-all story, just not at the start of it. Also, in the divided-pantheon, one thing I'm envisioning is conflict between similar deities. In fact, in an attempt to master ALL thunder/lightning I could see Zeus attempting to acquire Thor's hammer, and that attempt (successful or not, I'd have to look at my Norse myth for a refresher on whether or not it's in the final battle) could lead to or somehow link to Thor's death in Ragnarok in some fashion...
...
...
wait. If the Grecian pantheon are LARGE sized creatures (as they are in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods book), that'd make them an awful lot like, you know, "giants", specifically giants from another world, such as those that eventually destroy Midgard...
... oooooooooooooooooooooh, what do you guys think!?
...Sorry.
Why? No reason to "sorry"! The fact that you post here is great, even just for "dotting", and speaking of which...
Wow! That's terrific! :D
Ugh, lots of text to go through up there, so instead of adding my own two cents to the gods debate, I'll toss out a few more down to Earth world building ideas.
You haven't talked a lot about races in your world, aside from mentioning the Drow and Dwarves while discussing the Norse pantheons (at least I don't think you have, my eyes started glazing over after a few essays) so let me suggest that instead of making Elves some forest-dwelling race that doesn't really fit into the Greco-Roman world, make them Greeks.
Have the Elves be the ancient Greek empire in decline, being politically dominated by the up and coming Human Roman Empire that is coming to adopt the Elven/Greek language, architecture, dress, and gods as it's own.
Arcane magic should be stylistically different between cultures. I'm not sure you can justify the standard Wizard, they should be very rare (and possibly NPC villains) in any case, but Witches and Bards should be "common". Especially Bards, with archetypes like the Archivist dominating in more civilized lands and the Savage Skald in others. Summoners are also a good fit, more common in Egyptian and Arabic regions than elsewhere.
Have you considered the affects of Ragnarok on the divine inhabitants of a split divine world?
The other gods might laugh at the Norse thinking "Haha they are doomed" but pause to reconsider things when the effects of Ragnarok start affecting them as well because when the prophecy said the World is destroyed it meant the Whole world.
Also, if they are included in the mix one interpretation of the prophecy could be that only the gods listed as surviving survive and the rest all die which means that the Greek and Egyptian are doomed and so might take actions to try and avert their fate. Say by going to War with the Aesir and trying to take them out before the prophecies can come to pass.
Additionally in true Greek fashion as they go to try and avert their fate they end up fulfilling it.
Ugh, lots of text to go through up there, ...
... but, but that's what makes the best threads! <:O :D
Also, we're building two (topically similar) Campaign Settings now - one with a shared core of gods, and one with distinct pantheons. It's a win-win!
... so ... I'll toss out a few more down to Earth world building ideas.
We'll take 'em!
You haven't talked a lot about races in your world, aside from mentioning the Drow and Dwarves while discussing the Norse pantheons (at least I don't think you have, my eyes started glazing over after a few essays) so let me suggest that instead of making Elves some forest-dwelling race that doesn't really fit into the Greco-Roman world, make them Greeks.
Have the Elves be the ancient Greek empire in decline, being politically dominated by the up and coming Human Roman Empire that is coming to adopt the Elven/Greek language, architecture, dress, and gods as it's own.
I really like where you're heading, actually, and I like some of the concepts! One thing to mention, however, is you juuuuuust missed my previous thoughts on races (which is totally understandable, 'cause there's a lot in here). To whit (not even spell-checked or anything!):
As for the races, dwarves and elves are, in my estimation, linked strongly to the Norse; dwarves probably Hepaestus in the Grecian pantheon; elves... I don't know outside of the Vanir, as a whole. Gnomes aren't particularly Norse, they're more Anglo-Saxon, I think, so I'm going to ignore that element of their history and drop them into the Egyptian elements, which, to me, just kind of fits (illusion seeming to work there to me, for some reason). Halflings, I'll drop into the Grecian world as their propensity for "luck" seems to work best in Greece's presumptions of luck and how it works (that it's housed in the fore-brain could be linked to charisma and spacial reasoning i.e. athletics, like what the Greeks oft use). What say you?
One of the things I'd like to do is link, stylistically, creatures and people to local cultural elements. IF "elves" are indeed Greco-Roman, than what I'd strongly suggest is re-skinning (pun intended) them so they aren't... well... "elves" anymore. Basically elves don't look Greek - they look strongly Norse-only-skinny (and "skinny" wasn't something the Greeks approved of too much; check out their sculptures!). Basically, I like what you're saying, but to progress forward, we need critters to look the part... or at least feel it, which, to me, looks play a part of.
That's partially why I put Halflings where I did - just as likely to tan as humans with skin that reflects the local diet as well, thick, curly hair (ala the Mediterranean), and propensity towards both slight roundness (perfect for Grecian art) and athletics (a revered element in Grecian culture).
Elves and Dwarves just come directly from Norse myth. Like, directly from their myth. By forcing the Dwarves to be children of Hephaestus, though, that allows a distinct connection with Greece-world. In the Split Pantheon World, they could be one of Hephaestus' many failed/ugly children with Venus (I believe this is was part of the myth?) which drove her to the arms of the better-looking (if brutal and antithetical to her way of existence*) Ares.
I placed gnomes in Egypt because, quite frankly, I didn't see anywhere else to fit them, and gnomes' affinity with illusion magic just seems to fit with Egypt for some reason. Also, I know that gnomes who've survived the bleaching have their skin turn a plain, dull, earth-toned/brownish color, which, while not exactly the same, does match Egyptian skin tones better over-all.
That's not to say that I don't like, or reject out-of-hand your ideas - far from it! In fact, I like them a great deal, I was just pointing out where I was coming from - both my logic and my earlier post! One of the things I definitely like is the difference in racial makeup between the Greek-people and the Roman-people. What that difference is, I'm not sure, but I like the concept that's implicit there. I also like the vision of the fading glories of elves "aped" (again, pun intended, as the elves might find the humans "apish") by the humans. Very nifty stuff!
Arcane magic should be stylistically different between cultures. I'm not sure you can justify the standard Wizard, they should be very rare (and possibly NPC villains) in any case, but Witches and Bards should be "common". Especially Bards, with archetypes like the Archivist dominating in more civilized lands and the Savage Skald in others. Summoners are also a good fit, more common in Egyptian and Arabic regions than elsewhere.
I strongly agree with your differentiation of magic concept, and the general breakdown as you have it, but I feel that it should probably extend to the divine, where possible (though I don't think that the rules need to be iron-clad). I think inquisitors and oracles work very well in Egypt-land, oracles in Greece-land, and probably clerics in Norse-land. But that's just me. :)
Have you considered the affects of Ragnarok on the divine inhabitants of a split divine world?
The other gods might laugh at the Norse thinking "Haha they are doomed" but pause to reconsider things when the effects of Ragnarok start affecting them as well because when the prophecy said the World is destroyed it meant the Whole world.
Also, if they are included in the mix one interpretation of the prophecy could be that only the gods listed as surviving survive and the rest all die which means that the Greek and Egyptian are doomed and so might take actions to try and avert their fate. Say by going to War with the Aesir and trying to take them out before the prophecies can come to pass.
Additionally in true Greek fashion as they go to try and avert their fate they end up fulfilling it.
Great ideas! I actually wholly approve of this. Especially considering that the Grecian deities might actually be the giants the Norse fight, in the end. Which is pretty cool!
EDIT: making this two posts instead
NOTE: the special abilities need work, I need to add the rest of the at-will spell-like abilities in (Chaos, Destruction, and Madness Domains, as well as their Special Abilities), the Skills are currently only the ranks + class skill bonus, and I need to choose most of the feats (there will be substantial two-weapon fighting and power attack). I also need to note that there is no phylactery... unless the proper condition is met, I'm going to say that most gods "get better". In the Grecian world, it's Golden Centaur blood that perma-kills 'em. ANYHOO.
Well, I was going to make a proof-of-concept deity write-up, however, the Deities and Demigods book lists him as CG and a barbarian... however he's also deity of fate and nobility which seems kind of "lawful", although that doesn't really fit with his behavior. Speaking of "behavior", I'm not really ready to say that he's "good", because, you know, how he treats his wife and mortals. And other gods. And everyone in general. So I need you guys to weigh in on him. I was thinking something like a weapon master fighter (APG) and an inquisitor as his base classes, and probably a holy vindicator, among others, for levels beyond the initial 20. The inquisitor is for the glory/auras that he's supposed to have so prominently, and he's definitely not a paladin.
NOTE: IF he's a fusion of Thor, he's most definitely a barbarian, probably also still an inquisitor.
Anyway, since my first idea is kaput, for now, my second choice is
Dionysus!
First, a caveat, I've decided against the +20 racial bonus and the +2 prodigy bonus, and added the +2 racial bonus to all ability scores, presuming that they're "human" gods, and Azlanti, as humans, are the peak (granting a +2 to all their ability scores). I chose this specifically for Dionysus because he's (sort of) the basis for all humanity (that is, all mortality came from the spirit of his previous incarnation Zagreus, melded with titan's ashes, Ptah's tears, and grown into trees, based on my previous concept), so... that's there! Finally, I decided to go with Paizo's three tiers of godhood thing (demigod, lesser god, greater god) and throw in some boons (similar to WotC's old divine rank system, effectively demigod=5 ranks, lesser god=10 ranks, greater god=20 ranks). For ability scores, this means that they gain +10 points to spend per "tier", spread around (no more than half in a single score): effectively double a 20th level mortal's level-increase boons. As Dionysus is a lesser deity, he gets twenty points to spend.
I also presumed lots of benefits for being deity, like maximum hit points per hit dice, but not most the elements that presuppose a specific number of ranks (such as direct one-to-one bonuses on rolls, or increases to ability scores), though I did include some (such as divine salient abilities).
Finally, I'm not done yet! This is a rough-draft to get an idea of who/what he is/can do, but I kind of ran out of time. Anyway, here we are!
Women-Maddener, Ivy-Wreathed Dionysus, Loud-Roaring Dionysus
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Thyrsus (a staff tipped with a pine-cone with an ivy vine wrapped around the staff)
Home Plane: Olympus
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Portfolio: mirth, madness, wine, fertility, theater
Worshipers: satyrs, fauns, revelers, rogues
Domains: Chaos, Charm (lust subdomain), Destruction (rage subdomain), Madness
Favored Weapons: Quarterstaff (also heavy mace, or morningstar)
CN Medium Outsider (god [humanoid (human), bard-druid])
Initiative: +20 (+16 DEX, +4 Improved Initiative)
Senses:
Aura: aura of bacchanalia (300 ft, DC 40), frightful presence
AC: [NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
hp: 1,484 (20d12 <240> + 16d12 <192> + 1d8 <8> + 10d10 <100> + 13d8 <104> + 780 +60)
Saves: Fort +48 (35 base +13 CON), Reflex +44 (28 base +16 DEX), Will +41 (28 base +13 WIS)
Damage Reduction: 30/epic
Immunities: energy (cold, electricity), poison
Resistances:
Weakness: Golden Centaurs (and their blood)
Speed: [NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
Melee: [NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
Ranged: [NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
Space/Reach: [NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
Special Attacks: Acidic Puke (1d4 rounds), Anything to Please (at will), Dazing Touch (at will), Destructive Smite (at will), Miasma Belch (as Acidic Puke), Rage (67 rounds/day)
Spell-Like Abilities:
(at will): charm monster, charm person, command plants, confusion, demand, dominate monster, dominate person, entangle, geas/quest, insanity, plant growth, suggestion, touch of idiocy
Extracts per Day:
(1st): 9 (5 base + 4 INT)
(2nd): 9 (5 base + 4 INT)
(3rd): 7 (4 base + 3 INT)
(4th): 6 (3 base + 3 INT)
(5th): 4 (1 base + 3 INT)
Extracts Known: all 5th level and lower (no formula book needed)
Bard Spells Known (CL 20):
Cantrips (At will): dancing lights, lullaby, message, open/close, prestidigitation, summon instrument
1st (9/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: alarm, disguise self, confusion (lesser), hideous laughter, hypnotism, ventriloquism
2nd (9/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: detect thoughts, enthrall, glitterdust, heroism, rage, tongues
3rd (7/day) [5 base + 5 CHA]: crushing despair, deep slumber, geas (lesser), glibness, good hope, haste
4th (6/day) [3 base + 5 CHA]: break enchantment, freedom of movement, modify memory, hallucinatory terrain, rainbow pattern, shout
5th (6/day) [3 base + 4 CHA]: dispel magic (greater), dream, heroism (greater), mind fog, song of discord
6th (6/day) [3 base + 4 CHA]: animate objects, charm monster (mass), eyebite, heroes' feast, irresistible dance
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 20):
(Orisons): at will (4 prepared) create water, create wine [as water, but wine], purify food and drink, virtue
(1st): 8 (4 base + 4 WIS) faerie fire [2], goodberry [3], jump, obscuring mist, speak with animals
(2nd): 7 (4 base + 3 WIS) animal messenger, restoration (lesser) [2], spider climb, tree shape, warp wood, wood shape
(3rd): 7 (4 base + 3 WIS) diminish plants, dominate animal, neutralize poison [2], poison [3] {usually wine}
(4th): 7 (4 base + 3 WIS) flame strike [2], reincarnation [3], rusting grasp [2]
(5th): 7 (4 base + 3 WIS) animal growth, awaken [2], baleful polymorph [2], commune with nature, tree stride
(6th): 6 (4 base + 2 WIS) fire seeds, ironwood, liveoak, move earth, spellstaff [2]
(7th): 6 (4 base + 2 WIS) changestaff [2], heal [2], transmute metal to wood [2]
(8th): 6 (4 base + 2 WIS) animal shapes, control plants, cure serious wounds (mass), finger of death, reverse gravity, word of recall
(9th): 6 (4 base + 2 WIS) antipathy, cure critical wounds (mass), regeneration, shambler, shapechange, sympathy
Oracle (Haunted, Nature Mystery) Spells Known (CL 8):
Orisons (at will): bleed, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, read magic, stabilize
1st (9/day) [6 base + 4 WIS]: bless, bless water, charm animal, cure light wounds, divine favor, entropic shield, minor image, remove fear
2nd (9/day) [6 base + 4 WIS]: barkskin, bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, enthrall, levitate, shatter
3rd (7/day) [5 base + 3 WIS]: blindness/deafness, cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, speak with plants
4th (6/day) [3 base + 3 WIS]: cure critical wounds, grove of respite, poison
Sorcerer (Verdant Bloodline) Spells Known (CL 17):
Cantrips (At will): acid splash, arcane mark, daze, disrupt undead, flare, light, ray of frost, resistance, touch of fatigue
1st (11/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: color spray, entangle, floating disk, mage armor, unseen servant, sleep
2nd (11/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: arcane lock, barkskin, continual flame, knock, pyrotechnics, scorching ray
3rd (11/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: arcane sight, ray of exhaustion, slow, speak with plants, tongues
4th (11/day) [6 base + 5 CHA]: bestow curse, command plants, enervation, fire shield, remove curse
5th (10/day) [6 base + 4 CHA]: dismissal, fabricate, feeblemind, wall of thorns, waves of fatigue
6th (10/day) [6 base + 4 CHA]: circle of death, disintegrate, transport via plants, undeath to death
7th (10/day) [6 base + 4 CHA]: limited wish, plantshape III, prismatic spray, sequester
8th (8/day) [4 base + 4 CHA]: animate plants, scintillating colors, symbol of insanity
Before Combat: Dionysus is not shy from combat, although, unless it's part of a revelry, his first preference will always be seduction in the case of women, or drunken revelry in the case of men (and his second preference the reverse of that, if the first part wouldn't work), both of which his natural divine aura assists with. Alternatively, Dionysus will attempt to diffuse the situation with humor and good-nature jests. If either or both of those are rejected, Dionysus will usually quickly fly into a sacred, drunken rage, downing much of the wine he'd have previously offered to the offender in one, swift drink. If he has time, and knows conflict is unavoidable, he quickly brews up a number of extracts of various kinds of wine and consumes those shortly before combat. If it is Dionysus who's the aggressor, he's usually extremely methodical, with a large number of poisonous wines with which he'll seduce his enemies into drinking their own death. If his theatrical performances are under appreciated (or he feels they are), he may also fly into a sacred rage to destroy the heathens who dare look down on his displays.
During Combat: In combat, Dionysus is a fearsome foe, raging with unbelievable might and fury against whoever offends him. If need be, Dionysus can choose to cast spells in the midst of his rage to further gain advantage. Dionysus always has an amphora of wine with which he gains the benefit of his extracts. If Dionysus is attempting to murder an enemy with poison, he'll gladly drink his own poison, as he's entirely immune. If combat is a part of revelry, than Dionysus will, instead of preferring seduction and general carousing, leap into it with wild abandon, and, although he rages just as much as life-and-death situations, he'll use nonlethal damage instead (mostly).
Morale: Although wise, Dionysus is more than slightly mad and, having tasted death once (and descended into Hades to claim his mother) is more than willing to taste it again.
STR: 36 (+13), DEX: 42 (+16),CON: 36 (+13),INT: 38 (+14),WIS: 37 (+13),CHA: 50 (+20)
Base Attack: +52 CMB: CMD:
Feats: (1st), (b), (3rd), (5th), (7th), (b), (9th), (11th), (13th), (b), (15th), (17th), (19th), (21st), (23rd), (25th), (27th), (29th), (31st), (33rd), (35th), (37th), (39th), (b) alertness, (b) combat reflexes, (b) dodge, (b) eschew materials, (b) improved initiative, (b) lightning reflexes, (b) toughness
Skills: acrobatics [4], appraise [63], bluff [63+8], climb [4], craft (alchemy and wine making [63]), diplomacy [63], disable device [4], disguise [63], escape artist [13], handle animal [23], heal [63], intimidate [63], knowledge (arcana [4], engineering [4], geography [4], history [4], nature [63], planes [4], religion [63]), perform (act [63], comedy [63], dance [63], oratory [63], sing [63], string instrument [63], wind instrument [63]), perception [4+8], profession (herbalist [23]), sense motive [+8], sleight of hand [63], spellcraft [13], stealth [+8], swim [4], survival [63], use magic device [13]
Languages: Common (Greek), Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Druidic, Dwarven, Giant, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Latin, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon
SQ: A Thousand Faces, Alchemy, Bomb (7d6), Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance ([62 rounds/day] countersong, deadly performance, dirge of doom, distraction, fascinate, frightening tune, inspire competence +6, inspire courage +4, inspire greatness, inspire heroics, soothing performance, suggestion, suggestion (mass)), Brew Potion, Camouflage, Cantrips, Discoveries (combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, dispelling bomb, elixir of life, infusion, madness bomb), Jack-of-all-Trades, Lore Master (3/day), Mutagen, Mystery (nature), Nature Bond (plant domain), Nature Sense, Oracle's Curse (Haunted [no negative effects]), Orisons, Poison Immunity, Poison Use, Rage Powers (animal fury, boasting taunt, good for what ails you, inspire ferocity, internal fortitude, liquid courage, moment of clarity, reckless abandon, roaring drunk, spirit totem [lesser], spirit totem, spirit totem [greater], staggering drunk, terrifying howl), Resist Nature's Lure, Swift Alchemy, Swift Poisoning, Throw Anything, Timeless Body, Trackless Step, Venom Immunity, Versatile Performance (x5), Water Breathing, Well-Versed, Wild Empathy, Wild Shape (at will, druid level 20), Woodland Stride
[THESE ALL NEED TO BE COMPLETED]
Aura of Bacchanalia (Su): (300 ft, DC 40 <HD+CHA>)
Acidic Puke (70 ft cone of acid, 17d6 damage, free action, once per 1d4 rounds)
Awaken Treants (as Green Dragon)
Frightening Presence
Miasma Belch (as Green Dragon's Miasma)
Rejuvination (as lich)
* The Venus/Hephaestus/Ares love triangle is, in some ways, similar to Nepthys going for Osiris when her children with Set didn't work out so well, for all the fused-pantheon folks! Too bad that nothing of the rest of their relationship even remotely works with each other.
New take on the fused pantheon. I imagine gods killing each other or otherwise assuming their aspects and worshipers.
Possible Example, when Osiris was destroyed by Set, the revival did not actually work. But instead Hades assumed the aspect of Osiris to expand his following, and secretly replaced the dead god in the pantheon.
New take on the fused pantheon. I imagine gods killing each other or otherwise assuming their aspects and worshipers.
Possible Example, when Osiris was destroyed by Set, the revival did not actually work. But instead Hades assumed the aspect of Osiris to expand his following, and secretly replaced the dead god in the pantheon.
This is a fascinating concept, and I like it! It flies in the face of some of the ideas here, but that's okay, 'cause we're still developing things, and I'd like to see what others think of this?
One spin I thought of on top of your spin is that Hades not only "secretly replaces", but actually partially becomes Osiris. Effectively the ritual both succeeds and fails - Hades is, on some level, reborn as Osiris who is also Hades. Kind of a "Becoming the Mask" trope (no, I'm not linking to tvtropes for all our sanity). Hades doesn't even have to realize what's happened, as Hades, he's completely convinced that he's pulled it off. As Osiris, he's completely convinced that he's himself (and possibly that he's pulled an epic coup, if he has his Hades memories, and might presume that he's playing that pantheon instead). If this is in the split pantheon world, something like this would work just as well, too!
Not posting often, but I'm following the thread.
One thing I did and helped me find equivalent gods between Egypt and Greece is use the Mesopotamian pantheon - there are a couple of gods there that can be taken as middle-grounds. I also intend to use a complete Mesopotamian pantheon for one of my human people, with a phenician flavor.
I also suggest Zoroaster, the first take on monotheism, to get some ideas on how to make plots happen on gods' scale.
Moreover:
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/index.html
That guy's awesome. He put the most useful stuff I've found for World-Building, telling real-world humankind story from the point of view of utilising natural ressources as its real evolutionnary advantage. Great takes on life in stone, bronze, iron ages (and even renaissance); irrigation; silver mining. Raised my enthusiasm a great bit.
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Might also tink of how the various monsters/demons overlap. They might be best seperate even with a fused pantheon. So the Norse fight frost giants, but maybe not a cyclops or roc. Though they may all have legends of Titans/Fenril/monster in chains that they share.
Might also tink of how the various monsters/demons overlap. They might be best seperate even with a fused pantheon. So the Norse fight frost giants, but maybe not a cyclops or roc. Though they may all have legends of Titans/Fenril/monster in chains that they share.
This is pretty great, and honestly something that I was (subconsciously) thinking. One thing I suggest is making outsiders more or less universal, extremely rare, and entirely devoted to one or two pantheons. For example archons fit perfectly within the concepts found in Hindu (reincarnation into progressively 'better' forms), Japanese (honor-bound codified warriors serving a celestial hierarchy), and Egyptian (some-time animal-headed) pantheons. Since I've personally tied those three together anyway, I'd suggest that archons are the universal servants of the gods of those realms, regardless of the deity or their alignment. Similarly, I'd suggest devils be the universal servants of the underworld, again regardless of deity or alignment: they serve the gods of death. Demons, I'm not sure of. I know they play important parts, as-written, in Hindu pantheons and Japanese literature, however I'm not really certain of their place in Egyptian, Norse, or Grecian culture.
I'd suggest Genies and their ilk be an extremely rare phenomenon somehow tied to Grecian and Egyptian culture (considering we've nixed Arabian myth), while dragons are probably non existent or strongly relegated to the Norse mythos. One possible concept is that the reason for the Vanir to leave their previous homes was the advent of the kobold - the "forest spirits" - and their dragons.
Also, thanks for the link, StM!
Not posting often, but I'm following the thread.
One thing I did and helped me find equivalent gods between Egypt and Greece is use the Mesopotamian pantheon - there are a couple of gods there that can be taken as middle-grounds. I also intend to use a complete Mesopotamian pantheon for one of my human people, with a phenician flavor.
I also suggest Zoroaster, the first take on monotheism, to get some ideas on how to make plots happen on gods' scale.Moreover:
http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/index.html
That guy's awesome. He put the most useful stuff I've found for World-Building, telling real-world humankind story from the point of view of utilising natural ressources as its real evolutionnary advantage. Great takes on life in stone, bronze, iron ages (and even renaissance); irrigation; silver mining. Raised my enthusiasm a great bit.
The equivalencies actually used in Hellenistic Egypt were (I've been researching for a freelance assignment):
Ptah = Hephaistos/Vulcan
Horus = Apollo (though he is also associated with Hercules)
Osiris = Dionysus
Isis = Demeter or Io
Set/Apophis = Typhon
Bubastis = Artemis
Neith = Athena
Amun = Zeus
Hathor = Aphrodite
Khonsu = Hercules (but see Horus)
Thoth = Hermes
Anubis = also Hermes
Hope that helps.
The equivalencies actually used in Hellenistic Egypt
That's great, Jeff! Thanks!
So, rethinking of what gods "look like" again. In my creations from insomnia thread, I have begun a slightly different idea of what gods might look like.
Anyway, I'm thinking I might be running a single-player campaign in one of these worlds soon, with the player in question being the daughter of Dionysus (the guy I attempted to stat above). I'm interested in some ideas for what you think might be good adventures.
Also, as base classes, I'm thinking of suggesting an oracle, Super Genius Games' Godling (the variants) prestige, and other such things. What do you think? Also, considering it's the only player, I'm thinking of granting a variant of the Monster of Legend and/or Half-Celestial/Infernal/Fey template, appropriate for Dionysus. What do you guys think?
EDIT: to clarify, the templates are there for customization and making her feel more "half-god-ey". Since she's going to be alone, survival will be a serious thing. Also, it's not all the half-templates together I'm thinking of, so much as bits and pieces of them.