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I love feats a lot, but considering how precious few we get, for optimization's sake, one feels the need to skip all "flavor feats" and opt for things that give defined, always active or consistently useful bonuses. Things like Improved Initiative, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, etc.
So what would be a flavor feat? Things like Persuasive, Endurance, Underfoot, Prodigy, Teamwork Feats, perhaps combat maneuvers. My players hardly even know they exist. Giving them a combat maneuver feat for free might encourage them to try it out. This is too small a sample, but basically, "Feats a min/max-er wouldn't take for his build"
Some thoughts on how to get players more of the feats they'd like:
1) Feat Elimination - Eliminate feats that just seem unnecessary. This has been discussed in other threads; feats like Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, Heighten Spell, Leadership, Strike Back, etc.
2) Feat Consolidation - Let's say instead of removing Two-Weapon Fighting from being a feat altogether, make it one feat. Then when you meet the prereqs for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, you gain it automatically. Perhaps do the same for the Combat Styles in Ultimate Combat. (Especially if for the feat-starved Master of Many Styles)
Combining Power Attack and Combat Expertise into one feat and dropping the stat requirements could open up whole new possibilities for players.
3) Skill Tricks - This is something from 3.5. I believe it worked something like this; instead of spending your skill points to increase your rank in a skill, you can spend them to buy skill tricks. So I'd need to create a list of feats that could be bought with skill points. Although perhaps not the best example of a Skill Trick; Antagonize could be one. It's something you can do with a skill, why not put it there? Dazzling Display might fit here too. (Limit 1 Skill Trick per level or every other level.) Part of implementing skill tricks would be to give every class (or at least classes like Sorc and Fighter) a bonus 2 skill points per level, so even low Int builds would have a few more points to spare.
4) Character Creation Feat - Dole out feats that make sense to the character, kind of like traits. If they have a good backstory, give them something nice.
5) Feats as a Reward - Completing a quest grew the character in some way. Give them a feat to represent the growth. Did they fight under conditions where their eyesight was next to useless? Perhaps they've earned Blind-Fight.
6) Training - Study under a master to gain another feat. You want to learn Mantis Style? Learn from a master. Want to learn how to grapple effectively? Learn from a master. Want to learn how to wield a whip? Learn from a master.
7) Selling Feats - Least preferred option, but perhaps allowing some feats to be purchased as Ioun Stones or some such is something to consider. Once again, the feats you could take would be from a more restricted list. (No toughness, improved initiative, etc.)
8) More feats - Pathfinder gives us 10 feats over 20 levels. How about houserule 15 feats over 20 levels? At 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, you get to pick a flavor feat.
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4, 5 and 6 all seem to be good options.
Give them feats that make sense. For example, feats with racial prerequisites.
An example, you give each member of the party 1 item at the start of the adventure, but a player comes up with a good dwarf character & backstory, give him say the Steel Soul feat. Or for a Gnome, the Extra Gnome Magic feat.
Something that is not ground breaking, but draw enough attention from the other players that you as a DM rewards good story and role-play over power gaming, while not breaking the game for those that prefer to to min/max. Keeping the game fun for all players.
I think if you want flavor feats to get used you would need to go with 8. All the others just give more feats that could be used for power feats.
Of course sometimes there's a fine line between flavor feats and power feats. Skill Focus or the +2 to 2 skills feats can stack up when they're free.
I'm thinking I'd keep Skill Focus off the list of flavor feats.
What?!
Couple reasons:
A) As you said, it can stack with a lot of other feats that grant bonuses. The point of the flavor list is to broaden players, not give them a new trick to add +10 to their Intimidate checks, or whatever. Spend a regular feat if you want to be that specialized.
B) It's a prerequisite for a few things, like the Loremaster Prestige Class and for the Eldritch Heritage feat.
I might reconsider, especially on a case by case situation, but that's my current thinking.
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I had a DM that gave us three extra feats at character creation for flavor purposes. The caveat was that these feats could not be anything that affected combat. DM had final say.
Skill focus (any) was ok even though it could technically affect combat
Imp initiative - No. combat
Breadth of knowledge - OK
etc
I liked it. There were a lot of feats I would never otherwise take.
I'd just set it so that players get a feat per level, so add at 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.
With these extra feats, just draw up a list of feats that overall have a minimal impact on combat, or are so under used because mechanically they aren't close in potency to the good stuff.
Then just label this category "flavor feats" to psychologically frame for the players the intent of the list.
Ooh, maybe I should divide the flavor list itself even further.
Like this:
At 2nd level, you gain an extra feat. You can use it to gain a feat that has a racial prerequisite.
At 4th level, you gain a combat maneuver feat or (underpowered) metamagic feat.
At 6th level, you gain a teamwork feat.
At 8th level you gain a feat that increases two different skills.
So on and so forth.
I had a DM that gave us three extra feats at character creation for flavor purposes. The caveat was that these feats could not be anything that affected combat. DM had final say.
Skill focus (any) was ok even though it could technically affect combat
Imp initiative - No. combat
Breadth of knowledge - OKetc
I liked it. There were a lot of feats I would never otherwise take.
That's a neat idea. I should especially consider some character creation feats. Might help players develop the roleplaying aspect of their character too.
That's a neat idea. I should especially consider some character creation feats. Might help players develop the roleplaying aspect of their character too.I had a DM that gave us three extra feats at character creation for flavor purposes. The caveat was that these feats could not be anything that affected combat. DM had final say.
Skill focus (any) was ok even though it could technically affect combat
Imp initiative - No. combat
Breadth of knowledge - OKetc
I liked it. There were a lot of feats I would never otherwise take.
Exactly.
I was thinking that as well, Lincoln, but really, if those free feats are restricted to underpowered feats such as skill focus, teamwork feats, etc. then I don't think it really hurts humans too badly.
The one thing I might keep an eye on is people using their free feats for prerequesites. For example taking skill focus: whatever to be able to gain eldritch heritage at less of a cost.
As you said, if Humans get two feats from the regular list, they still have their same advantage.
Besides; each race seems to have their built in feat anyway. Elves have Spell Penetration, Half-Elves have Skill Focus, Halflings have +1 to all saves, etc.
...and yar, already mentioned why Skill Focus might not be on the flavor list. (Or at least would require further GM approval)
I was thinking that as well, Lincoln, but really, if those free feats are restricted to underpowered feats such as skill focus, teamwork feats, etc. then I don't think it really hurts humans too badly.
The one thing I might keep an eye on is people using their free feats for prerequesites. For example taking skill focus: whatever to be able to gain eldritch heritage at less of a cost.
As you said, if Humans get two feats from the regular list, they still have their same advantage.
Besides; each race seems to have their built in feat anyway. Elves have Spell Penetration, Half-Elves have Skill Focus, Halflings have +1 to all saves, etc.
...and yar, already mentioned why Skill Focus might not be on the flavor list. (Or at least would require further GM approval)
I think skill focus is fine for flavor even if it's used for EH. It's really not that big of a deal.
How´s this for flavor feats: you get free flavor feats. they do absolutly nothing in game-mechanical terms... because they´re flavor feats.
you as a GM can challenge yourelf to find ways to show off the differences reflected in these character feats,
but they aren´t going to have ANY effect on in-game stats, rolls, etc... because they´re flavor feats.
if players are going whole-hog for optimization in lieu of more flavorful characters, and everybody agrees that isn´t really optimal even if they can´t help themselves under the ´current regime´, why don´t you figure out a different approach to character design? Maybe they come up with character back-story (amongst themselves for characters who already know each other, you as GM can participate as well) that is extremely descriptive in terms of personality, traits, style, etc... And then they hand it over to you as GM to choose the feats, etc, that most represent that. Beginning players often end up doing something like this (having an expert deal with the choosing the mechanics) and are often the most enthusiastic of role-players, since the idea of a fictional character doesn´t require any familiarity withpseudo-war-gaming optimization.
How´s this for flavor feats: you get free flavor feats. they do absolutly nothing in game-mechanical terms... because they´re flavor feats.
All feats have mechanical effects, that's why they're feats. Otherwise they'd be called backstory (or whatever). That's flawed reasoning.
"flavor feat" is a basis of comparison, not a definitive category.
Flavor Feat X: You can grow a very nice mustache. And Tiny Coffee Golem thinks you´re nuts. :-)
Flavor Feat X: You can grow a very nice mustache. And Tiny Coffee Golem thinks you´re nuts. :-)
I'm thinking that very nice mustache may yield amazing benefits to the tune of +2 to diplomacy and intimidate checks. Maybe even +4! :)
Nope, that´s not a Flavor Feat then. Some nice mustaches provoke feelings of bemusement at decadency, jealousy, bad child-hood memories, or sensory confusion. Not with everybody, but statistically, this nice mustache has no affect in persuading, befriending, or convincing people they should be afraid of you. But it is very nice. :-)
Flavor Feat Y: You have brown eyes.
Flavor Feat X: You can grow a very nice mustache. And Tiny Coffee Golem thinks you´re nuts. :-)
-5 to diplomacy checks vs TCG
Aww really... I thought you got along swell with nutso´s...!?!?! ;-)
Aww really... I thought you got along swell with nutso´s...!?!?! ;-)
Here, Take your meds. ;-)
In my latest campaign I am using an experience system whereby the PCs recieve 'hero points'. These points can be used as hero points already can be used but are also used to increase the PCs level (at twice current level). They can also be used to buy feats: 3 hero points gains you a feat.
At low level they have spent them on gaining a level, but later, when it costs, for example, 18 points to go from 9th to 10th level, would gaining 6 feats be more useful than a level?
I am still testing this system but it seems to work so far and the players like the additional option for character design.
It also means that spending points to gain big bonuses etc. costs you in long term character development
I love feats a lot, but considering how precious few we get, for optimization's sake, one feels the need to skip all "flavor feats" and opt for things that give defined, always active or consistently useful bonuses. Things like Improved Initiative, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, etc.
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I have done number 5. PCs were drafted into a militia. I let them choose a feat from a short list, martial weapon, light armor, medium armor, endurance, or toughness.
Made for good treasure.