It's the only one that explains why no one talking about how impossible it is to retreat seems to consider such basic tactics as "someone stays behind to cover the others' retreat".
You need to have the right circumstances for that to work though (see above with the dwarf and pony show)
the problem there is that if the party is doing poorly against an encounter, what makes you think that one person, alone, is going to do any better while everyone else gets away? You need to have a meat shield that has a lot of hit points left , but if you're retreating chances are pretty good that said meat-shield is low on HP.
the problem there is that if the party is doing poorly against an encounter, what makes you think that one person, alone, is going to do any better while everyone else gets away?
The person who stays behind isn't going to do better. He's going to die.
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Why don't more people...
...use tower shields? Sure, a lot of characters aren't proficient, but being able to use it for cover and grant that cover to an ally if need be can be a huge lifesaver, especially in some of the "retreat" scenarios we've been bandying about.
...feint? Most rogues I've known swear by Improved Feint, but I've never seen a non-rogue character attempt it. I'll admit it's more useful to rogues than non-rogues, but if you've got a high-Dex foe you can't seem to hit, getting him flat-footed for a turn could be a better idea than just missing 4 out of 5 swings.
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Every dog requires 10 lbs of feed (meat) each day per RAW.does it have to be raw per RAW?
Could you cite this? That seems.. wildly inaccurate.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#mounts-and-related-gear
Feed: Horses, donkeys, mules, and ponies can graze to sustain themselves, but providing feed for them is better. If you have a riding dog, you have to feed it meat.
Feed (per day) 5 cp 10 lbs
Happy to help!
Feed: Horses, donkeys, mules, and ponies can graze to sustain themselves, but providing feed for them is better. If you have a riding dog, you have to feed it meat.
Happy to help!
Feed (per day) 5 cp 10 lbs
Gosh.. SOMETHING about that doesn't look right... I'm pretty sure that 'feed' isn't considered to be 'meat' for the dogs. Since it lists 'providing feed (for horses) is better'
I'm pretty sure that stat is for oats and hay and what not...
Seriously NO dog eats 10 pounds of meat a day. My sister had a newfoundland, and that's about as big a dog as God makes... and IT didn't eat TEN POUNDS of meat...
Also, I'm not sure what horrendously spoiled meat that would be... Since above that it lists 'Meat- chunk of' and lists it for 3sp for 1/2 pound...
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Also, I'm not sure what horrendously spoiled meat that would be... Since above that it lists 'Meat- chunk of' and lists it for 3sp for 1/2 pound...
It's people...Soylent Feed is PEOPLE!!!
The question may not be 'why don't more people retreat?' because retreating is difficult and you'll just die a coward instead of die swinging. Retreat often needs to be called before it's obvious. If everyone's under half h.p. it can be too late. High Knowledge skills can help with this, but a veteran player is best.
The question may be 'why don't more parties coordinate plans to retreat?/have leaders to call retreat/have retreat spells-items prepared?' And that could be a matter of gaming style/expectations more than anything.
Most often the retreat involved those who can last a round more going full defense/blocking charge routes while others secured the doorway or dragged away the wounded. Then the last guy runs through and caster (moved through door, readied action) seals the door/makes wall/etc. Rope Trick also common, once out of sight of enemy, but that was 3.x.
Had one large group have Team A (mainly frontline) and Team B (others). Retreat equaled Team A rounding around Cleric (who readies Word of Recall for last Team A member getting there) and Team B doing same around Wizard with Teleport. Downed people picked up as needed, or teleporter moves next to them before readying. Essentially they could clear out in one round, and often needed to. Sometimes this could be pulled off before the monster even gets another turn. (Most often vs. buffed dragons that got jump on them...)
Of course, the amount of creatures these items work on as you gain levels decreases, but then you have the Teleport/Wall/etc. options open up.
Also, Mount can work as a meat shield (especially if it's hunger driving the monster) Scroll of Mount only 25 g.p. (1/2 if scribed)
You really have to flee and get secure in 1-2 rounds, and if in an open area, I don't think you can retreat by mundane means. (Fog Cloud scroll? Entangle?) Often, parties IMC would note key locations to retreat to/chokepoints, before the need arose. Sometimes they'd even set up to 'retreat' to those points only to unleash their best spells on the bunched up baddies.
Re: other questions
I've had 'ready' chains get pretty long in some fights, scrunching up four or more in a batch. Usually for counterspelling, sometimes just the frontline waiting for a melee monster to approach, and each putting a 5' step on it too so the Rogue (who often delays instead to full attack) can flank right off, as everyone was trained to be cognizant of getting the TWF Rogues in killing position. Sometimes the 'ready chains' readying off of each other would get pretty elaborate, but in character, which was cool.
"Ready to haste when these people are in range." ("Haste coming, gather up.") "Ready to do x and 5' here once Haste goes off." ("I've got right.") "Ready to do x when he moves right then 5' here." (etc.) Worth of tactic varies by battle/foe, but really cool when all cogs are clicking and you clamp around the incoming enemy.
My players use many of the other tactics mentioned. (Or learn to)
My favorite example for learning to ready vs. incoming melee opponents is a Girallon vs. Girallon battle. I let a newbie play one, I play the other, outside Full Attack range. If I win init. I ready an action, striking when they approach. If I don't win, they move to me anyway. Either way, I full attack first.
Lesson learned.
I agree with the aid another. It's not always the arcane casters (weak-links), but Rogues against "no SA" monsters or semi-melee types against "uber AC" monsters. Either can both flank and aid (defensively if they wish), and give a nice +4 to the fighter or maybe just help the one guy who can penetrate DR finish off the werewolf/gargoyle/etc.)
I think most people don't hold spells because they think in terms of 'attack' spells, and you often want to launch a ranged spell in round 1. (Saving a buff is a solid idea, though either way you're using a standard action to deliver it)
More questions:
-Why don't more players know to constantly 5' step to allow everyone to flank for every attack? (There should never be an odd man out, if you keep shuffling around.)
-Why don't more mid-high level PCs cast Shield Other? (Especially now with more AoE healing)
-Why don't more people have scouts with racial/early level Darkvision?
(What do you mean they see me? I didn't mean they saw 'you', but rather your light, roll initiative. Ah, crap.) Too many times...
Actually had one rogue go out, realize from my descriptions that there was an edge to HIS light, and promptly run back in fear, thinking something 'must' have seen him. (Nothing had, but he was shaking, shocked after thinking he'd been sooo stealthy.)
-Why don't more parties use code words/preplanned battle arrangements/shared rare language?
(It's as if they know our tactics.
Yeah, you're sharing them out loud.
But...I thought they didn't know Common because they were speaking in another language. (Actual quote from player)
That's so you don't know what THEY're going to do.)
Even one call for AoE incoming and one for retreat would make a world of difference.
I do know players who do these, so maybe lots do, but it just shocks me when people don't.
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Of course, doors generally open inwards so as to allow the people inside them to bar them not the people outside. But anyways. . .
Of course in a dungeon the doors would be internal, and / or the PCs may be fleeing further into the dungeon if being attacked from the rear. But anyways...
If you've got two pcs readying actions to shut and bar a door no wonder you have to retreat. Personally I'd rather have those pcs in the combat actually doing something, but that's just me.
I was sort of expecting an organised retreat where those two people readying would have retreated previously while the other person held off the monsters (maybe fighting defensively) so that they could close off pursuit once their last PC joined them. I would rather have a tactical retreat rather than an every man for himself approach, but that's just me.
But really this thread is asking why people don't do certain things more often. My point is that, with retreating, its normally a bad option and I think that's been shown time and again in this thread.
If "normally" the alternative is an almost inevitable TPK then I would argue retreating is not normally a bad option.
A successful retreat may have a low chance of success, but if it has a much better chance of success than actually staying and winning, then it makes sense to retreat. If that is the case I am curious to determine why some players still choose to fight and die rather than try to escape.
Has anyone else experienced this and care to comment?
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Why don't more people... play non-optimal characters?
I'm not talking about blind mutants or anything, but something with skill points spent in, say 'Profession: Innkeeper' or similar?
I don't see that sort of thing very often, and it makes for real plot-gold when you see it come to your table.
In 3.5 I used to stick a couple of ranks in a profession skill to denote my character's background, e.g. Profession (Farmer) but TBH I found it never actually came up in play - the GM never asked for a roll, and even where relevant to a task e.g. impersonating a local farmer, that skill didn't make up for having the same ranks in bluff or something.
I never bothered to put more than 2 ranks into such a profession in 3.5, and in PF I would be discourage to even put a single rank in it (as you no longer get 4x Ranks at first level). I would simply be better off writing on the character sheet that my character used to be a farmer before adventuring, and if it ever came up in play ask the GM for a circumstance bonus of +2 or something (basically the approach 4e takes).
...Your fleeing is not hindered by cover or terrain where as their charges and ranged attacks are...
Uhmm... Why is fleeing not hindered by terrain?
...Your fleeing is not hindered by cover or terrain where as their charges and ranged attacks are...Uhmm... Why is fleeing not hindered by terrain?
because you are not limited to moving in straight lines. It of course will cost you extra movement, but if you can move beyond it or behind it as appropriate, it hasn't hindered your escape, like it will hinder their attack.
...because you are not limited to moving in straight lines. It of course will cost you extra movement, but if you can move beyond it or behind it as appropriate, it hasn't hindered your escape, like it will hinder their attack.
Ok, that makes sense. I thought you were saying you didn't get slowed down at all.
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This is a great anecdote for adventure designers and GMs out there. Always look for ways to reward players for spending skill points. There are only so many skills in the game (unlike feats) so it shouldn't be too much of a problem to work unusual and meaningful skill checks into an adventure.
Unfortunately there are lots of variations of the Profession skill* that means unfortunately adventure writers would have to make some lots of specific skill check requirements or some overly general skill checks in order to get use out of those skills.
Its not so bad if a GM is writing or even tailoring scenarios to his players, but if running an AP or module as is, it will be difficult.
*The PFSRD lists architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter
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Right, but it's harder to spread a few points around for flavor or to represent background, since you have less points. You get more for them, but since it won't matter whether you have +2 or +4 in Farmer that doesn't help.
Exactly, where in 3.5 I could assign just 1 or at most 2 ranks to a professions skill, in Pathfinder assigning just 1 rank is the equivalent of assigning 4 ranks in 3.5, not something I would want to do (better to spend it on an actually useful class skill like Stealth or Intimdate).
Should a need to roll a profession skill crop up I much prefer it to be an ability check Wisdom or maybe Intelligence or even Strength or Constitution (for woodcutting) with a circumstance bonus for having a relevant background, e.g. +2 for "brought up in a small farming hamlet" to +5 for "Farmed his father's land since the age of ten".
This is much like Savage World's Common Knowledge skill check mechanism:
Instead of forcing characters to have dozens of “background” skills they rarely need, we use the concept of “Common Knowledge.” Your hero knows the basic history of his land, common etiquette, how to get around geographically, and who the major players in his locality are. This is called “Common Knowledge,” and is covered by your hero’s Smarts attribute.
If a character’s background suggests he should know something about a subject, add +2 or more to his roll. If the subject is foreign to a character, subtract 2 or more from the roll. Everyone else breaks even and gets no modifier.
Emphasis is mine.
because you are not limited to moving in straight lines. It of course will cost you extra movement, but if you can move beyond it or behind it as appropriate, it hasn't hindered your escape, like it will hinder their attack....Your fleeing is not hindered by cover or terrain where as their charges and ranged attacks are...Uhmm... Why is fleeing not hindered by terrain?
What do you do if the person chasing you makes the exact same moves you do, until they don't need to?
There's lots of monsters -- most of them, probably -- that you simply are not going to beat in an endurance trial. If it takes them an hour or three to fatally run you down, well, it's not like they have anything else to do with their night.
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What do you do if the person chasing you makes the exact same moves you do, until they don't need to?
There's lots of monsters -- most of them, probably -- that you simply are not going to beat in an endurance trial. If it takes them an hour or three to fatally run you down, well, it's not like they have anything else to do with their night.
Difficult terrain etc does hinder Charging more than it does Withdrawing, but yes, if the foe is happy to just keeping following but never attacking then you have to hope you can get to somewhere that you can block pursuit (e.g. move and then shut and lock a door) or where you can end up not adjacent so that you can then try to run (at which point it may come down to who has the higher Con to keep running, or the GM runs it as a chase).
If that does happen though hopefully changing the arena of the fight may be enough to tip the balance in your favour (e.g. moving into areas a monster has to squeeze, or moving the fight so that the main foe's minions can't keep up allowing to to focus your fire on the main foe without being harassed etc. Each situation will be different and in some cases running will be as likely to end in a TPK as staying and fighting, maybe more so, but hopefully those situations should be few and far between.
because you are not limited to moving in straight lines. It of course will cost you extra movement, but if you can move beyond it or behind it as appropriate, it hasn't hindered your escape, like it will hinder their attack....Your fleeing is not hindered by cover or terrain where as their charges and ranged attacks are...Uhmm... Why is fleeing not hindered by terrain?What do you do if the person chasing you makes the exact same moves you do, until they don't need to?
There's lots of monsters -- most of them, probably -- that you simply are not going to beat in an endurance trial. If it takes them an hour or three to fatally run you down, well, it's not like they have anything else to do with their night.
if they are that hellbent on chasing you down, then it probably goes down like it does in real life;
if you don't have some ace in the hole against your opponent, you get a lucky break or you die.But just like staying and fighting isn't always the best option, running might not be either.
hopefully though if you do decide to run, there are options open to you to disuade persuit; places to hide, seperate the enemy from his main force and turn around and attack them, distraction or making the chase too difficult for them to keep up, etc...
If it comes up to just beating feet, then you have planned poorly and will probably die because of it.
To break contact with an enemy, you may want to consider smokesticks and/or obscuring mists spell, with a bag or two of caltrops.
This will break line of sight, may allow you to stealth (as you now have concealment) and if the enemy charges, there is a good chance that they will pick up a caltrop or two, which will slow them down.
To break contact with an enemy, you may want to consider smokesticks and/or obscuring mists spell, with a bag or two of caltrops.
This will break line of sight, may allow you to stealth (as you now have concealment) and if the enemy charges, there is a good chance that they will pick up a caltrop or two, which will slow them down.
Of course, as soon as you don't have concealment they'll automatically see you (although the Stealth rewrite may end up fixing that). Caltrops I've mostly seen not work out very well in play because it takes you action(s) to scatter them, and maybe they jump/avoid them or maybe huge centipede just sucks up the caltrops and keeps mauling you.
When running away actually means running and not teleporting etc., my experience is that it's usually only possible via GM mercy, and that mechanically it doesn't really work out.
To break contact with an enemy, you may want to consider smokesticks and/or obscuring mists spell, with a bag or two of caltrops.
This will break line of sight, may allow you to stealth (as you now have concealment) and if the enemy charges, there is a good chance that they will pick up a caltrop or two, which will slow them down.
Of course, as soon as you don't have concealment they'll automatically see you (although the Stealth rewrite may end up fixing that). Caltrops I've mostly seen not work out very well in play because it takes you action(s) to scatter them, and maybe they jump/avoid them or maybe huge centipede just sucks up the caltrops and keeps mauling you.
When running away actually means running and not teleporting etc., my experience is that it's usually only possible via GM mercy, and that mechanically it doesn't really work out.
Depending on the terrain, then yes, it can be a problem. If you are in an open field, then you will have limitations. If you have any kind of terrain, then stealth may allow you to hide for a bit, time enough to drink a potion or two, etc..
I was thinking of using the smokestick/obscuring mist and the caltrops at the same time. If the caltrops are dumped in the smoke area, then they should affect at least the first few enemies that pursue.
If you still have enough spells, one of the pit spells on your side of the mist could also slow down pursuit.
You could also mix it up a bit, mess with the enemies minds, by casting rope trick in the mist, then fleeing, not entering the refuge. With any luck, the enemies will camp at that site.
Or you could also use a Fugitive Grenade (Jade Regent AP 2) that produces a 2 round fog cloud and a rope trick with a smoke rope that dissipates along with the rest of the cloud - duration of 6 hours.
A couple of tree feather tokens will block a 10' hallway.
If you break contact/sight for a moment, a quick silent image that recreates the wall/cavern side/etc.. in almost the same place, but with enough room for you and your team to hide behind, may have the enemies running off after you.
There are options, but for most of them, you need to put a bit of thought into it before hand, otherwise your chance of being able to come up with an escape plan on the fly is very limited and chances are slim that it will work.
Why don't more people...
...feint? Most rogues I've known swear by Improved Feint, but I've never seen a non-rogue character attempt it. I'll admit it's more useful to rogues than non-rogues, but if you've got a high-Dex foe you can't seem to hit, getting him flat-footed for a turn could be a better idea than just missing 4 out of 5 swings.
Two reasons; first, there's the feat investment (Combat Expertise and Improved Feint), without which feinting is a two round process. Second reason, the required investment in the Bluff skill. Since the DC involves the enemy's BaB or Sense Motive skill, trying to feint means you want as much Bluff as is reasonably possible.
I was thinking of using the smokestick/obscuring mist and the caltrops at the same time. If the caltrops are dumped in the smoke area, then they should affect at least the first few enemies that pursue.
Isn't that multiple standard actions?
(Although I did see someone try exactly that combination in one of the games I played in last year -- the thing that was chasing him soaked up the caltrop effects and ended up killing him anyway.)
I was thinking of using the smokestick/obscuring mist and the caltrops at the same time. If the caltrops are dumped in the smoke area, then they should affect at least the first few enemies that pursue.
Isn't that multiple standard actions?
(Although I did see someone try exactly that combination in one of the games I played in last year -- the thing that was chasing him soaked up the caltrop effects and ended up killing him anyway.)
Well, I was under the impression that this was a group of adventurers trying to retreat, not a single person. So yes, it is several standard actions.
One individual could drop a smokestick/cast obscurint mist and then use their move action to move away.
Those dropping the caltrops could do so, then use their move to move away.
Etc.
I have placed PCs against opponents that they cannot hope to defeat, and have had players blunder into such situations. Retreat or surrender are options - maybe not pleasant ones, but still options. Negotiations are also possible, depending on what has happened recently.
Whether the enemy pursue or not, depends on who the enemy is, what their goals are, etc..
It seems to me that the rules published in the GameMastery Guide about Chases could be used to represent the scenario of PCs trying to flee from NPCs.
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/chases)
Considering the variety of circumstances that PCs might elect flight as the best response, it might be worthwhile to allow PCs (the pursued in this scenario) the ability to attempt to create obstacles where none exist or increase the difficulty of an existing obstacle. Perhaps creating an obstacle where none exists could be an action that is itself treated like an obstacle - if the PC beats a minimum DC, their actions (dropping caltrops while on the run, yanking down half-rotted support timbers, overturning minecarts, closing doors, etc.) create obstacles for their pursuers.
A mechanic exists for handling chases and the notion of pursuit, but in the absence of the ability to obfuscate their path while on the run, the PCs often are legitimately better off hoping that continued assault will get lucky (minimum 5% chance to crit with every attack) rather than devoting their actions to attempting to get away. I think that (1) if the Chase mechanics were better known, and (2) a part of those mechanics involved a process by which the pursued could make the chase harder for their pursuers, more parties might elect to flee since they would feel like that had a chance at being successful in doing so.
Yeah, Feather Tokens in the hallway, forgot about that. Not sure why more people don't stock up on Feather Tokens. Rarely used, but cheap and priceless when useful.
And Silent Image walls, seen that used often to save parties. Great against non-intelligent creatures.
As for skill point toward background, I think you guys have got the math wrong. You get more out of your investment for the same skill point cost. (Though 'more' is relative because it's a 'flavor' skill.)
1st level: Point in all the class skills that matter, +4 bonus (like in 3.x where you usually put in 4 ranks/skill.)
2nd level: Either one point in all of the above, +5 bonus (like in 3.x) or you lose 1 rank in one of them to put 1 rank in 'flavor skill', but you get +4 in that flavor skill and still have +4 in the other (instead of +4/+1 as in 3.x).
So, yes, at 1st level it looks like you 'lose' more, as it's more of a % of your skill points, but since each point in a new class skill activates that +3 bonus (no matter when you take it), your skill bonuses increase faster than in 3.x, whenever you spread your points out that is. And you can start with that background skill, catching up on the other skill later, with exactly the same result. (Unlike 3.x where maxing out a skill you didn't max at 1st was tough.)
I like this because the dumb jock, after a few levels, can jump, swim, & climb better than a common man, with +4 base for each. At higher levels, you can have a large amount of triggered +3 bonuses, making for a well-rounded/experienced PC (even if dumb), rather than the 3.x PC which had less impetus to spread the wealth and had less flavor for it.
Reaper Miniatures
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Why Don't More People...
..use the Aid Another action in combat once they learn they cannot hit the target? You're a non-full BAB class, but still in melee. You know the fighter can hit the target, and you're completely out of self buffs etc. You need a freaking 20 to hit the baddie, but you only need a 10 to add +2 to the fighter's meager chances of hitting.
Why do more players not build their characters so that they can land a hit most of the time?
One of the reasons more players do not retreat is that one in the group is not willing to run or able to run. My character can get away with out a problem with a land speed of 100ft. But my friends character a mounted Paladin only has a speed of 10ft., so while I can get out I do not like to leave friend behind if I can help it. I am will to, since I can come back later I get the body and have it raised later.
I can get one other character out with me with my 23 str, but who to take?
PS: My gaming group uses stuff from 3.5.
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Seriously NO dog eats 10 pounds of meat a day. My sister had a newfoundland, and that's about as big a dog as God makes... and IT didn't eat TEN POUNDS of meat...Also, I'm not sure what horrendously spoiled meat that would be... Since above that it lists 'Meat- chunk of' and lists it for 3sp for 1/2 pound...
Even if it were the case, the gist of the point is still there: You have to account for their food.
Besides, didn't the post say something about an elephant?