Besides the paragraph in the Innner Sea World Guide I see nothing else on the Kalistocrats? Is there something in one of the APs or have the Paizo staff just not tackled it yet? I want to know more about the secular Puritans, they seem really interesting. It also seems like they're probably big players on the world stage with all that wealth.
On a somewhat related note, I would love to see a list of specific jewelry with prices for them. I want to deck out my future Kalistocrat in the finest bling.
Part of my difficulties with the Prophets is that they haven't really given us much to work with, prophecy-wise. What are the special dietary and sexual restrictions? Outside of the obvious, are there any other restrictions on clothing? They give hints, but not details.
I have similar problems with the lack of information on such orders as the Hellknights or the Crusaders (and their ever-mysterious oath).
Now, I totally grant, this is for several reasons: to allow GMs to make their own, to allow Paizo not to have to spend exorbitant amounts of time on it, and to allow a campaign to flow more easily.
I'm just interested in these things, and I'd really like to see them brought into more detail. I'd totally accept a Kegluneq's helmet-style-explenation of it as "official", though!
Part of my difficulties with the Prophets is that they haven't really given us much to work with, prophecy-wise. What are the special dietary and sexual restrictions? Outside of the obvious, are there any other restrictions on clothing? They give hints, but not details.
I totally agree, I would love to see some of the actual prophecies. I like to imagine it's a lot like a hybrid of Puritanism and New Age self help with lots of gaudy jewelry. I'd be curious to know if Kalistocrats can also follow a deity in addition to the Prophecies or if that's forbidden as well.
I have similar problems with the lack of information on such orders as the Hellknights or the Crusaders (and their ever-mysterious oath).
The Crusader's Oath is in the entry on Low Templar in the Inner Sea World Guide. Or at least I think it is, I'm too lazy to check now, but I'm pretty sure about that.
I totally agree, I would love to see some of the actual prophecies. I like to imagine it's a lot like a hybrid of Puritanism and New Age self help with lots of gaudy jewelry. I'd be curious to know if Kalistocrats can also follow a deity in addition to the Prophecies or if that's forbidden as well.
See, it's that kind of stuff that fascinates me: the minutae (which really isn't that minor) that tells me who they are. Obviously, they hold their own prophecies above religion, but someone like Adabar aligns with their views so well, it'd be strange for at least some of them not to accept him, unless they were completely forbidden religion at all.
Again, I completely understand... putting actual prophecies in might be devastating for a non-directly-over-powering GM, because if you print a prophecy, what if it doesn't come true? That said, I'd still love to know some.
The Crusader's Oath is in the entry on Low Templar in the Inner Sea World Guide. Or at least I think it is, I'm too lazy to check now, but I'm pretty sure about that.
Will have to check that out later! Thanks.
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Reviewing the Prophecies ... it is almost as though someone took a mystery cult and the 'self-fulfilling prophecy' parts of the study of economics and smashed them together into a big financial conspiracy.
I'd totally accept a Kegluneq's helmet-style-explenation of it as "official", though!
Well ... it's been years ... I don't know if any of this will fit anymore, but I'll give it a try.
*dons white gloves*
I am flattered and overjoyed by your interest in the prophecies. And I see you are curious about my attire. Allow me to explain.
I and other adherents of the Prophecized Path understand that the universe's ultimate reward surpasses the rewards of the Material and the Spiritual. You may live and die, and a God may permit you entry to their afterlife, but with time all that you are and were will fade. Consider the great empires, the fate of forgotten gods, and the fallen civilizations of the distant past: all fading, gone or forgotten.
However, the Prophecies foretell another way, a means of attaining a more real and lasting immortality not just of the flesh but of the will and the legacy. And this means, the foretold path to the universe's ultimate reward, is wealth. The accumulation of wealth.
These clothes, then, are an expression of how far along one has come. The gloves are for purity, and are universal; we are separated from the Material and the Flesh, elevated in our concerns, and so our clothing separates us from such things as well as those who do not accept the prophecies. There are essentials -- white silks, gold, and pearls -- and each item I wear displays my pure devotion and my faith in the prophesies. There are also variations -- some favor silver, jade, satin, amber, or other exotics -- but what matters most is that one displays openly purity and wealth to justify one's worth in the celestial order.
I dress in the style favored by the Opulent himself (page 39 of the Faction Guide). A white cape, lined with silk from the east; a mithral breastplate, the pauldrons and skirt embellished with gold leaf; vambraces of mithral to match the breastplate, but free of adornment to preserve the appearance of the gloves beneath. I am always certain that the inscription and maker's mark of my breastplate is well cleaned and visible, since the breastplate was a gift from a dwarf lord and so expresses not only my personal wealth but my wealth in earned good will. I avoid additional adornment, trusting in my personal appearance and the expense of this armor to illustrate my worth. It is notable that according to this style, baubles, rings and trinkets would exude desperation and discomfort.
Others (such as the prophet on page 65 of the Inner Sea World Guide) have been known to cover themselves more fully and keep exotic pets to demonstrate their worth. Gemstones and coins from far away markets are often hung as charms from necklaces and bracelets to show the far reach of that prophet's commercial activities. Coins from distant Kelesh and Vudra are particularly valued. Furthermore, as those with power, wisdom and worth are often depicted as serene, the general theme of one's attire as a prophet should be to exude serenity and certainty. Wealth flows to those in harmony with the universe, and harmony is the herald of peace and understanding, so always dress to awe and sooth rather than rankle or perturb.
Last but not least, consider makeup. The body is a temple, and the prophecies tell that one should not pollute the body with physical or nutritional mistreatment. Hence, foods prepared only in clean, artful and aesthetically pleasing ways. This sometimes prevents one from displaying one's wealth, as we often travel to strange markets and camps. But makeup shows that one can afford to pay others to perform labor, makes one's appearance more striking, and again reveals serenity since one that can wear makeup without smearing or sweating through it most certainly has little to fear or concern themselves over. Eyeshadows are my particular vice, as a good liner and shadow often draws listeners into one's eyes and makes them more attentive to my words. Again, pearl and gold are my preferred colors, though there are those for whom more wild and vibrant colors are more appropriate.
Peace upon you.
*removes white gloves*
Just haven't tackled it yet.
Golarion's a big world, give it time.
Yeah, big +1(,000)
These guys have always interested me, some sort of wierdo Scientologist-cult, but we don´t have much actual details, even of the superficial type (not getting into their secret rituals, etc). How they interact with religions is a big question for me. Their martial force is apparently mostly mercenaries... how does that work? How do they interact with the Church of Abadar or the Kelesh/Qadirans, both of which are VERY similar to their general practices (moneymoneymoney). Possibly more of a semi-secret thing is their relations with/within Andoren.
Likewise, there´s almost no info about their neighbors in Molthune, or Nidal for that matter (though that´s set to change apparently, at least the Superstar Adventure will be set there).
Again, I completely understand... putting actual prophecies in might be devastating for a non-directly-over-powering GM, because if you print a prophecy, what if it doesn't come true? That said, I'd still love to know some.
You have a built-in excuse, because no significant prophecy has come true when it was supposed to in the last hundred years. That's why this is the Age of Lost Omens, after all. :)
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I'd be curious to know if Kalistocrats can also follow a deity in addition to the Prophecies or if that's forbidden as well.
The Campaign Setting had 'Associated Religions' as 'None' and only Torag as a deity choice for Druma (presumably followed by the largish dwarven sub-population on the border).
The Inner Sea World Guide has 'Associated Religions' of 'Abadar' and adds Abadar to the 'common deities' of Druma, so it seems that the Prophecies, as originally envisioned, were deity-adjacent, but are now compatible with the clergy of Abadar.
Under the original paradigm, Druma would seem ripe for a special Oracle Mystery, and / or a fair number of Bards and Adepts being recruited, to provide access to healing magics, since it would have been a land with few if any Clerics, but the new Abadar-friendly Kalistocracy would be fine with just clerics of Abadar (in addition to the other options), and, IMO, is a bit more player-friendly, with that upgrade.
Lacking any sort of guidelines on 'dietary restrictions,' I went with having my Cleric of Abadar / Kalistocrat refuse to eat the flesh of any animal that would be more profitably used for other purposes (so he'd eat the meat of a rooster or a bull, but not a hen or a cow, who should be kept alive for production of eggs or milk, instead). Sheep would be for wool, not eating, in the majority of cases.
The sexual restrictions didn't seem likely to come into play, so I didn't bother thinking much about them, but would probably go with the old testament-y notions that sex with one's wives is for producing children, and that multiple wives and mistresses are fine, so long as one doesn't mess up lines of inheritance by getting the mistresses pregnant. Since game worlds tend to gloss over gender inequality, I would have made it 'don't knock up the mistresses' and not the more traditional 'don't have any *sons* by the mistresses, but have all the daughters you want, since they don't matter,' and extended 'multiple wives and / or mistresses' to 'multiple husbands and / or kept men' for successful female Prophets. Rather than go nuts with the multiple spouses thing, I'd have the Prophets self-limit to two wives (or husbands), using the rationale that the original Prophet only had two wives, and it would be considered disrespectful to have more than that number of spouses, as it would be suggesting that one considers oneself to be better than the founder of the faith...
In keeping with the gender equality common to fantasy worlds, one of my two Kalistocrat characters was a magical craftswoman (Wizard), very much 'wearing the pants in the family,' with a lower-status 'trophy husband' who stayed at home and attended to managing her various employees (and followers, as she had Leadership, with him as her Cohort), recognizing that he had a good thing going, so long as he kept his head down and didn't displease 'the boss.'
I kinda wanted to avoid making the dietary/sexual restrictions reflect stuff practiced in modern-day real-world faiths, so shied away from kosher practices or Hindu/Moslem/etc. practices. With the dietary route I went, pork (and shellfish, such as they are in a landlocked country...) would totally be on the Kalistocrat menu, since pigs aren't raised for milk or wool.
So, I started to go in here and respond, then I realized that I was trying to quote and respond to every single post, so, you know, I'll just keep this simple.
Kegluneq: absolutely excellent in every way. Favorited.
Mr. Schneider: good to know! I'm looking forward to it!
Quandry: you're name is appropriate! I'd guess their mercenary hirelings are just like any other show or display of wealth, and that they're hired from all over. In fact, that just gave me a great visual of the concepts of hiring adventurers, and makes the prophets fantastic (if slightly stand-offish) patrons for various adventurers.
Evil Midnight Lurker: yes, true, however the prophets' big thing is that their prophecy aren't based on deities, so it's still coming true, even though all others fail. So, if the prophecy fails, that's a pretty big set-back.
Set: thanks for clearing that up! Actually, it makes a lot of sense that they wouldn't hate or unilaterally reject the divine (even as they hold their own "faith" above it) because they'd never want to alienate a potential customer (which deities, of course, are). Further, it'd just be tacky to wind up like those poor, deluded people from the so-called Kingdom of Man, and all scarred and living in a devastated land. I also love your details!
The Campaign Setting had 'Associated Religions' as 'None' and only Torag as a deity choice for Druma (presumably followed by the largish dwarven sub-population on the border).
The Inner Sea World Guide has 'Associated Religions' of 'Abadar' and adds Abadar to the 'common deities' of Druma, so it seems that the Prophecies, as originally envisioned, were deity-adjacent, but are now compatible with the clergy of Abadar.
Under the original paradigm, Druma would seem ripe for a special Oracle Mystery, and / or a fair number of Bards and Adepts being recruited, to provide access to healing magics, since it would have been a land with few if any Clerics, but the new Abadar-friendly Kalistocracy would be fine with just clerics of Abadar (in addition to the other options), and, IMO, is a bit more player-friendly, with that upgrade.
That is more player friendly and Tacticslion's bit about not wanting to alienate potential customers seem like a good buttress to your idea.
Lacking any sort of guidelines on 'dietary restrictions,' I went with having my Cleric of Abadar / Kalistocrat refuse to eat the flesh of any animal that would be more profitably used for other purposes (so he'd eat the meat of a rooster or a bull, but not a hen or a cow, who should be kept alive for production of eggs or milk, instead). Sheep would be for wool, not eating, in the majority of cases.
Okay, that's just awesome! I was leaning towards more of a 'kosher' style diet (I was raised jewish, so it's something I easliy understand) but an economically based diet is just a fantastic idea. Watch out though, eating too much capon (rooster) is known to sap sexual energy, but that might something that the Kalistocrats wouldn't mind.
The sexual restrictions didn't seem likely to come into play, so I didn't bother thinking much about them, but would probably go with the old testament-y notions that sex with one's wives is for producing children, and that multiple wives and mistresses are fine, so long as one doesn't mess up lines of inheritance by getting the mistresses pregnant. Since game worlds tend to gloss over gender inequality, I would have made it 'don't knock up the mistresses' and not the more traditional 'don't have any *sons* by the mistresses, but have all the daughters you want, since they don't matter,' and extended 'multiple wives and / or mistresses' to 'multiple husbands and / or kept men' for successful female Prophets. Rather than go nuts with the multiple spouses thing, I'd have the Prophets self-limit to two wives (or husbands), using the rationale that the original Prophet only had two wives, and it would be considered disrespectful to have more than that number of spouses, as it would be suggesting that one considers oneself to be better than the founder of the faith...
In keeping with the gender equality common to fantasy worlds, one of my two Kalistocrat characters was a magical craftswoman (Wizard), very much 'wearing the pants in the family,' with a lower-status 'trophy husband' who stayed at home and attended to managing her various employees (and followers, as she had Leadership, with him as her Cohort), recognizing that he had a good thing going, so long as he kept his head down and didn't displease 'the boss.'
I had a totally different approach that was way stricter. I thought of them as more closely related to the Puritans or the Shakers who disallowed ANY sexual contact (no wonder there are SO many Shakers around today). Sexual contact usually has a minimum monetary requirement be it through dowry, paying for gifts to woo someone, or even the unthinkably filthy option of prostitution (gasp! Monacle shatters!) and this money and energy could go towards more worthwhile pursuits, like making more money. Common people need to breed to make heirs to prove that they were in this world, but a Kalisocrat needs not an heir to be recognized, but rather the wealth to produce lasting works upon which people will gaze with awe. Or whatever. But your idea still rocks and if Paizo went that route I'd still be a happy Kalistocrat.
I kinda wanted to avoid making the dietary/sexual restrictions reflect stuff practiced in modern-day real-world faiths, so shied away from kosher practices or Hindu/Moslem/etc. practices. With the dietary route I went, pork (and shellfish, such as they are in a landlocked country...) would totally be on the Kalistocrat menu, since pigs aren't raised for milk or wool.
That makes tons of sense. It might even lend itself to much stranger foods, like certain monsters who possess no economic value. They could even be extremely disgusting too, like blackened Otyugh or pan seared Aboleth but eating something disgusting is a small price to pay to be seen as a super refined and wealthy.
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While it's not all about kalistocrats, in the sense that there's not an in-depth and academic study of the faith, the forthcoming Pathfinder Tales novel Song of the Serpent takes place entirely in Druma, and kalistocrats play a significant role.
The Prophets of Kalistrade are one of the factions described in the Faction Guide (PF Chronicles/Campaign Setting). One might be able to distill some concrete information out of that two-page section.
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I played a prophet in a Kingmaker game and enjoyed it immensely. I actually liked that nothing was set in stone as far as their rules. Instead, I started with a blank sheet but always worked in a new, convoluted taboo (and added it to an ever-growing list) in various interactions with NPCs. [snip examples]
That's *awesome.* Back in GURPS, there was a 'Sahudese' culture up in the far north, and the general 'rule' of playing one was that you were to come up with the most nonsensical 'traditions' you could think of.
Great fun!
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wow what a coincidence....
I didn't look at the upcoming book.. and my new Pathfinder society character is.... The runaway daughter of a prophet of Kalistrade!!!
no magical artifact though...just a bag of holding and all the gold money and jewels she could pack in it.
too bad making up for a life made of restrictions and rules dictated by her father's avarice cost her almost all that gold, some of her personal jewels and the bag itself...
Specifically I’m curious about how it relates to and has being resisted being absorbed by the Church of Abadar, which follows many of the same tenets yet promises an afterlife.
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My current theory is that Abadar (and / or his higher ranking clergy) would rather be 'on the inside' where they can at least keep a hand on the wheel than have this commerce-driven economic powerhouse be completely out of their grasp (and possibly fall into the hands of another commerce-driven entity, like Mammon, whose clergy would *also* be sneakily popular among lower-ranking Kalistocrats, looking for an advantage towards becoming *higher-ranking* Kalistocrats...).
Sort of 'I can ignore this Kalistocracy-thing and all of it's wealth and power and give it all to Mammon, or I can try to steer it towards compatibility with my own tenets...'
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Specifically I’m curious about how it relates to and has being resisted being absorbed by the Church of Abadar, which follows many of the same tenets yet promises an afterlife.
Congrats on the 14-year thread necro!
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I think that's a new record!