Aelryinth, if your 3ed level wizard copies a Magic Missile spell from a scroll with caster level 20, do you let him cast it at caster level 20?
The subject is much the same. The item creator can imbue a scroll/other magic object with a metamagic feat (and a caster level), but when you copy it off, you can only get the basic information (the spell itself), not the fancy added metamagic (and high caster level...).
Pad, that's another bad example.
The caster level of a scroll is set when the scroll is made. A wiz/3 could certainly use a Magic Missile scroll cast at 20...if the scroll is set at CL 20, and it would cost accordingly (CL is part of the pricing formula, Spell Level x CL x 25 GP). He'd just have to pay 450 gp for the scroll instead of 25 gp...and have to make a DC 21 caster level check to avoid a mishap check, since his own CL is too low.
However, Caster level is NEVER a consideration when copying a spell to your book (except to decipher the spell in the first place). Only the spell itself is. You are making an artificial consideration.
A Metamagick'd spell is reflected in the new spell level. The caster is NOT imbuing it with a MM feat...that would imply 0 cost. Instead, the fact the spell has been modified is reflected directly in a new spell level and higher required caster level, and higher costs result accordingly. There's nothing 'free' or 'immaterial' about a Meta'd spell. It's not being 'imbued'...it's being set down as a modified spell.
So, you have a double confirm argument: Either a Meta'd spell is on the caster's list, and he can use it, and thus can scribe it to his book as any other spell, or it's not on his list, and he can't use it without UMD, and can't scribe it to his book.
Which is it?
==Aelryinth
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Either a Meta'd spell is on the caster's list, and he can use it, and thus can scribe it to his book as any other spell, or it's not on his list, and he can't use it without UMD.
It only becomes a problem because you insist that a metamagic-enhanced spell is, in fact, an entirely new spell. It's not, and it seems like most other posters grasp that.
You can copy a metamagic-enhanced scroll into a spellbook. A scroll of persistent cone of cold can be copied into your scroll book. Congratulations, you now have cone of cold in your spellbook. If you have the Persistent Spell metamagic feat (for example), and a 7th level spell slot, you can now memorize a persistent cone of cold spell. If you don't have the feat, or a high enough level spell slot, you're out of luck. You need the metamagic feat to memorize a metamagically-enhanced spell.
I know, I know. The logic of that eludes you.
You are absolutely certain that your interpretation is correct, as you were when you insisted that there could be no such thing as a scroll of a spell with metamagic. Hint...you were wrong then. Is it such a stretch that you're wrong now?
Hint..(removed for snarkiness)
It is YOU who are insisting that it's an entirely new spell. I am saying it's a modified old spell, with the cost of the feat built in...exactly like it is on the scroll. And so a caster can use it.
You are trying to divorce the meta'd spell on the scroll from the spell itself. The two are NOT separable. If they were, then it would require the Persistent spell feat to use the spell off the scroll...exactly as if you were prepping and casting it. It would be 'imbued' or somesuch thing. It's not...it's a scribed and fully functional version of the spell with the meta already applied, level adjusted and everything.
Meta and spell are intrinsically the same, and nowhere is it stated that a meta'd scroll requires the same feat to actually cast it.
So it comes down to the arguments of others, the 'not on the spell list' argument. I know, I know, you think it's a 'new spell', then backtracked yourself.
Now, own up. Is it a 'new spell', and not on your list, and thus not usable without UMD. Or is it on the list, modified, scribable, and memorizable? Because there is no separation between the two, regardless of the artificial one you are trying to make where the Meta of the scroll 'goes away' somehow when you scribe it.
I will also note happily that I was wrong about it being possible to do...but I'll also note that the question has never been answered as to whether a meta'd scroll is scribable as it is, and if so, the rules justification for it, because there isn't one.
========
As for a Silent spell being theoretically scribable, the counter question is: do spells that have no verbal component that are rendered as scrolls acquire a verbal component? It says you have to read it, I'm not sure that means read it aloud. If you can meta scrolls, it should be possible.
On to the bigger question!
==Aelryinth
Nothing to own up to.
Several people have tried explaining to you how it works, but no one's gotten through.
The problem isn't with the rules. It's you.
In other words, you concede you don't know what you are talking by, since you have to result to insults.
Accepted.
==Aelryinth
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I don't think he's misunderstanding anything.
What I think is that he's going on what he's seen in published adventures where a wizard has silent, maximized this and empowered, extended that only to have listed for spellbooks 'all prepared spells plus this' ...which would imply to me that the spells with metamagic feats can be scribed in a spellbook.
Which I'm fine with because it enables me as a DM to allow any other spellcasters out on adventures that don't have access to libraries and such to be able to learn these feats in the field, after they've done the work of deciphering the text. I'm sure I could milk a few roleplaying scenarios out of that, as could many of you. And when you think about it, really...what's so wrong with that?
Show me where it says definitively that this cannot be done. You cannot. None of you can. Just as none of you can definitively prove that you can scribe metamagic-enhanced spells into a spellbook. But why should we dismiss the possibility out of hand just because we can't prove that it can be done?
Before Varian Jeggare came along, there was no such thing as riffle scrolls. But the possibility of being able to use a flipbook in such a way was always there. It was fluff. Now, thanks to the fluff, we have the crunch (Inner Sea Magic).
Never discount the possibility.
The Wizard has more theoretical strategic flexibility. I have never seen an actual game where a Wizard's theoretical flexibility mattered for bupkiss in ways that a Sorcerer did not also have.
A Wizard can spend umpteen jillion gold packing their spell book with every conceivably useful spell. A Wizard can say "We need to wait an hour while I read my spell out of the spellbook to prepare it." and get the exact spell needed for the situation.
Now, what I see in actual play is this:
The Wizard and Sorcerer each have a scroll-case with buckets of scrolls that they know are useful, but aren't worth memorizing/learning. They have exactly the same spell lists to work from.
The Wizard and Sorcerer both have wands of utility spells.
The Wizard and Sorcerer both prepare the spells they want to be Really Awesome At. The Sorcerer wins the "Really Awesome At Spell X" competition handily. (Ever seen what a Fey Sorcerer with Greater Spell Focus and a 20 CHA does to level 1 and level 2 encounters with a DC 20 Sleep Spell?)
The Sorcerer with Metamagic rocks. Who cares if you can only take a 5' step while casting a spell rather than moving 30'? Especially when you can combine multiple-metamagics on the same spell at no additional casting time?
The Sorcerer and Wizard both use the "basket of scrolls" solution to "Whoops, I didn't prepare Spell X" today. The Wizard gets them at half price (except in PFS...)
Sorcerers have much greater tactical flexibility.
Sorcerers don't have their entire life's collection of magic wrecked when caught in a thunderstorm, or when the ship they're travelling on sinks. Those spell books are apparently waterproof, fireproof, theftproof, and nobody ever takes the multiple 3 lb books from the guy with the pointy hat before throwing him into a jail cell...
Nothing to own up to.
Several people have tried explaining to you how it works, but no one's gotten through.
The problem isn't with the rules. It's you.
In other words, you concede you don't know what you are talking by, since you have to result to insults.
Accepted.
==Aelryinth
... No, an insult that invalidates an argument would be if he called you a moron, or something along those lines.
He's identifying the problem, not insulting you.
If you're offended by it then that is also your problem.
The Wizard has more theoretical strategic flexibility. I have never seen an actual game where a Wizard's theoretical flexibility mattered for bupkiss in ways that a Sorcerer did not also have.
I have, but I can assign it to the player, and not the class. In short the ability of the player is the real issue here. I have seen people fail at both the wizard and sorc, and I have seen people do equally well with both, but these people knew the game pretty well also, so the issue of choosing the wrong spell to learn/prepare did not come up. Everyone that I have met in real life that could play one well could play the other well.
Wow. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone argue a metamagicked scroll can be copied into the spellbook as a new spell with the metamagic feat still a part of the spell as a new spell. Someone must have a DM that is very loosely interpreting the rules. If he can get away with it, more power to him.
I don't play it that way in my campaigns. I doubt the rules are meant for it to be that way. I don't have a DM that would allow such a interpretation.
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Aelryinth's mind is made up, stop confusing him with the facts.
I personally don't see a problem with a silent scroll. (would that make a silent scroll of cloudkill truly silent but deadly?)
I do think it harkens back to the core of the wizard/sorc argument.
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As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
That is how the section on metamagic feats in the core rulebook begins. Are you going to discount this then? Yes, I understand that for the purposes of operation, the 'silent dispel magic' is treated as the original spell, in spite of the fact that is prepared and cast as a higher level spell, in regards to saving throws (unless modified in that way by the scroll) and counterspelling.
But the operation, the act of spellcasting, is not what we're talking about.
I understand what you are all getting at by saying that a "silent dispel magic" spell is not a different spell, that its just "dispel magic." Different is the word that's causing the confusion. To continue on this further, lets look at the word different:
different
[dif-er-uhnt, dif-ruhnt]
dif·fer·ent
[dif-er-uhnt, dif-ruhnt]
adjective
1. not alike in character or quality; differing; dissimilar: The two are different.
2. not identical; separate or distinct: three different answers.
3. various; several: Different people told me the same story.
4. not ordinary; unusual.
For the sake of argument, let us assume the second definition of the word is what's being used.
The metamagic-enhanced spell is different. That is why it occupies higher spell slots than the original, unmodified spell. If it were the same, then it wouldn't occupy a different spell slot, but rather the same one.
Using 'silent dispel magic' as an example, it is still 'dispel magic', but now it is 'dispel magic' that is modified by metamagic (in this case 'Silent Spell'), which would imply that it is not just the original spell. Now, if we were just talking about the process of casting the spell, then that wouldn't matter.
But we're not. We're talking about deciphering and learning the spell.
Sorcerers can't learn metamagic-enhanced spells. They learn the metamagic separately from the spell, then add the metamagic as part of spontaneously casting the spell, making the spellcasting process longer (unless they are using Quicken Spell). Wizards, on the other hand, can memorize the metamagic-enhanced spell, then cast it without increasing the casting time because its already added. This we all know so nothing new is being said. But if the wizard can memorize it that way, then what prevents the wizard from scribing it that way into a scroll or spellbook? Nothing. The rules unequivocally say that this can be done.
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells[/b]]
With the right item creation feats, you can store a metamagic version of spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell
Deciphering a scroll with 'silent dispel magic' could leave a player with just 'dispel magic' but that would be a waste in making it a scroll in the first place. Why bother to do it all if all the player is going to get is just the unmodified spell? The extra effort put into learning the metamagic by an NPC is discounted when you take away that possibility. Just as you take away the possibility of the player learning the metamagic feat, that extra effort. It is not 'garbage', as one poster put it, but a part of the spellcasting process that produces an effect (in this instance, enabling dispel magic to be cast with no verbal components) upon completion. Provided, of course, that you can learn how to do it.
Now I'm not trying to be a jerk with this post. And I'm not trolling either. I've been following this thread because I've often wondered myself why the wizard gets dumped on so much in comparison to the sorcerer. Though I prefer to play more martially-oriented characters (that's just me feeding into my inner action-junkie), on the rare occasions that I do play a full-caster of the arcane type, I prefer the wizard over the sorcerer. The posts here have been very informative and/or amusing. However, I couldn't just sit back and allow Aelryinth's point, as I understand it, to just get dismissed out of hand.
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Deciphering a scroll with 'silent dispel magic' could leave a player with just 'dispel magic' but that would be a waste in making it a scroll in the first place. Why bother to do it all if all the player is going to get is just the unmodified spell? The extra effort put into learning the metamagic by an NPC is discounted when you take away that possibility. Just as you take away the possibility of the player learning the metamagic feat, that extra effort. It is not 'garbage', as one poster put it, but a part of the spellcasting process that produces an effect (in this instance, enabling dispel magic to be cast with no verbal components) upon completion.You're absolutely right. There is absolutely no reason to make such a scroll. Scrolls that are found were made by their creater essentially for use, not for passing on to someone else.
That may be true, but if a player gets a hold if it then it is no longer just for creator use. That dog doesn't hunt in this argument because the player becomes the beneficiary of that creator's knowledge. Why, then, would you penalize the player for gaining that knowledge by taking it away from him?
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Blayde,
The problem I see with your argument is the same problem I pointed out to Aerynth and he chose to ignore.
If the scroll is treated as a spell all by itself (silent dispel magic for example) then it's a scroll no one can use without UMD as there's no silent dispel magic on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. If (as is the most reasonable interpretation) the scrolls is a silent dispel magic, then the wizard can cast it as it's a dispel magic modified with a silent spell metamagic feat. When he transposes the metamagicked spell to his book, he's basically removing the metamagic part, as it's not a spell.
Even if the wizard researches dispel magic, silent as a 4th level spell, then it's still not the same as a metamagicked dispel magic.
(OTOH, the wizard, unlike the sorcerer, actually has an incentive to research spells with the 'metamagic built in.' A 4th level silent dispel magic might be useful if you're going into the caves of screaming chaos or the forest of lost voices. But is it going to be useful often enough for that sorcerer to burn a precious spell known?)
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It has much to do with how and why an item was made. On the other hand, I wouldn't allow such a scroll in the first place.That may be true, but if a player gets a hold if it then it is no longer just for creator use. That dog doesn't hunt in this argument because the player becomes the beneficiary of that creator's knowledge. Why, then, would you penalize the player for gaining that knowledge by taking it away from him?
LazarX,
I'm just curious, why not?
I could see a NPC (wizard) packing them. A silent dispel like above, an empowered hold person, etc. Especially if he's going after a somewhat known quarry. Now I'm still saying the PCs will get dispel magic, hold person, etc. Not metamagicked versions in their spellbooks.
A Wizard can say "We need to wait an hour while I read my spell out of the spellbook to prepare it." and get the exact spell needed for the situation.
By "an hour" you mean "one minute", right?
Or maybe that's part of why you don't think the wizard is very good.
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LazarX, why would you not allow it? There already exists an item that does this.
It's called the riffle scroll.
A riffle scroll is essentially a flipbook that has a spell on it modified by Silent Spell. It was used by Varian Jeggare in the Pathfinder Tales novel Prince of Wolves, but was later statted up in Inner Sea Magic. This version of scroll is a throwback to earlier times before magic use became more sophisticated.
A riffle scroll uses spell completion as its activation type, just as do normal scrolls. Characters who cannot cast the spell contained in a riffle scroll must rely on Use Magic Device to activate the magic held within. Riffle scrolls are treated exactly as scrolls for the purposes of deciphering the writing, activating the spell, and determining its
effects (including the chances for mishaps), save for the fact that riffle scrolls do not require verbal components—they automatically function as if they were cast using the Silent Spell metamagic feat. Activating a riffle scroll provokes attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell. Magical silence does not interfere with using a riffle scroll. Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
Riffle scrolls are somewhat heavier than normal scrolls; a single riffle scroll weighs 1 pound. Each riffle scroll has an AC of 9, 5 hit points, hardness 0, and a break DC of 10.
Riffle scrolls cannot be kept in standard scroll tubes; they are normally transported in flat leather cases or boxes similar to containers used to transport books.
Riffle scrolls can be created by any spellcaster who has the Scribe Scroll and Silent Spell feats. Scribing a riffle scroll is more time-consuming and expensive than scribing normal scrolls because of the greater number of pages and more complex magic involved. A riffle scroll’s market price is equal to the spell level × the caster’s level × 25 gp—but note that only spells that have been modified by the Silent Spell metamagic feat can be crafted into riffle scrolls. This affects the spell’s effective spell level for the purposes of determining the riffle scroll’s price.
Effectively, a riffle scroll costs about the same as a normal scroll of one spell level higher. This also means that 9th-level spells cannot be made into riffle scrolls, because there are no 10th-level spell slots. Abilities that reduce the level adjustment of the Silent Spell feat do not affect riffle scrolls.
To scribe a riffle scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of its market price. Scribing a riffle scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price, with a minimum of 1 day of work. Although an individual riffle scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.
Edit: Though it is considered a wondrous item (the reason for this is explained above), it still treated as it were a scroll as far as use goes.
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Matthew,
Thank you for your post. I understand fully what you're getting at. I was merely trying to put forth the argument as I understood it. It all basically comes down to DM interpretation, in the end, as LazarX said. As a DM, that's how I would handle it (and have in the past), but with the understanding that if the spellcaster wanted to use one of his feats to learn the discovered metamagic in question, then he could do so. That's what I meant when I said to 'not discount the possibility.' It may seem to be a liberal interpretation, but it has made the discovery of spells and the learning of metamagics in my games more fun for my players. And that's what I'm all about, my players having fun.
LazarX,
I get what you're saying. I don't necessarily agree, but I get it.
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I'm of the firm opinion that scrolls need to be read aloud to trigger the magic. But the riffle scroll might be another type of item that's a variant.
See, I've no problem agreeing to disagree on this. The rules are silent (ha!) on how metamagic affects activation. I think allowing it makes the most sense, but YRMV*.
Though there is another annoying question. Can wizards read faster than sorcerers? I mean if the scroll uses the normal casting time, does the wizard read an empowered fireball scroll as a standard action, while the sorcerer reads the scroll as a full round action?
Wizard to Sorcerer: "Having trouble with the big words?" ;-)
*
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No, unfortunately. The wizard is no faster than a sorcerer in the reading of a scroll, even if that wizard has the Scrollmaster archetype. A shame really.
Thank you all for this. I'm actually preparing to go to a funeral for my aunt in an hour, so this is taking my mind off seeing my relatives under these circumstances (somewhat). We were really close growing up (she was 42, I'm soon to be 41). So if I don't respond after a while, it's not because I've given up on the thread. I will be back later.
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Though there is another annoying question. Can wizards read faster than sorcerers? I mean if the scroll uses the normal casting time, does the wizard read an empowered fireball scroll as a standard action, while the sorcerer reads the scroll as a full round action?Scrolls are spell completion in which the bulk of the work has been done by the scroll writer. So for all users, scroll use is a standard action.
*nods* I was thinking of metamagics scrolls (again, assuming such a thing is possible)
Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
I can see the argument that you're using the base spell to determine these things, but this is new territory we're talking about.
Of course I also find the 'asf applies' bit to scrolls funny and ignore that too.
Nothing to own up to.
Several people have tried explaining to you how it works, but no one's gotten through.
The problem isn't with the rules. It's you.
In other words, you concede you don't know what you are talking by, since you have to result to insults.
Accepted.
==Aelryinth
... No, an insult that invalidates an argument would be if he called you a moron, or something along those lines.
He's identifying the problem, not insulting you.
If you're offended by it then that is also your problem.
No, he's putting words in my mouth and flatly stating he's right and I'm wrong, without bothering to prove his point and defend his faulty logic. I.e. he lost the argument, and is resorting to name-calling.
===Aelryinth
Er the pure fact that he says that his opposition is insisting that the spell is a new spell I would say is rather clear evidence that the argument is not being understood. I mean saying that they are requiring the exact opposite of the basis of their argument would imply that some misunderstanding has occurred.Aelryinth's argument is that a metamagicked spell can be scribed into a book. Logically that means it must be a new spell, because only complete spells can be scribed into a spellbook.
Now, if that were true, metamagicked scrolls can't actually be cast by anyone without a UMD check because you can only cast scrolls of spells on your spell list. An Empowered Magic Missile, by this logic, is not a magic missile at all. Wizards don't have the spell Empowered Magic Missile on their list (because it doesn't exist), so they can't cast a scroll of it.
This line of argumentation is ridiculous, by the way. But by showing the logical outcome if Aelryinth were correct, one can easily prove that this is not how the game or rules work. Heymitch was attempting to show this.
Proof
Premise 1: Only distinct spells can be scribed into a wizard's spellbook.
Premise 2: Casters can only cast spells from spell completion items if those spells are on their spell list.
Test premise: Metamagicked spells can be scribed into spellbooks from scrolls.
A. If A metamagicked spell on a scroll can be scribed into a book then it is a new spell.
B. Spells that are metamagicked are not on the spell list of any caster. <Example: Empowered Magic Missile is not a spell on the wizard/sorcerer list>
C. Therefore a wizard cannot cast a metamagicked spell from a scroll.Since this is farcical on its face, obviously metamagicked spells on scrolls aren't scribable because they are not new spells.
What? That logic is totally inverted.
A Spell to be scribed has to be on your list.A Spell to be read off a scroll without UMD has to be on your list.
Where's this 'new spell' thing coming from? it's totally extraneous to the proof.
Ergo, if a Meta'd spell can be read off a scroll, it qualifies as being ON YOUR LIST.
Thus, it is scribable.
By YOUR ruling, it's not even CASTABLE, since a Meta'd spell isn't on its caster's list, either!
This 'magical hand-waving' that the Meta effect somehow 'vanishes' between scroll and scribing would also have to apply when reading spells off a scroll, or casting out of a slot. Consistency all the way across.
Your examples make less and less sense as you progress. The whole 'metamagic vanishes when you take it off the scroll and try to scribe it' is NOWHERE in the rules. You're making it up, and I call shenanigans.
And 'they' are the people above who insisted that because 'Silent Magic Missile' isn't on the arcane list, you can't scribe it, completely ignoring the fact that you wouldn't be able to READ it or CAST it if that were the appropriate rule, and yet insisting you could do just that, and the rule only applied on this one little instance they made up to justify their position.
Eesh.
===Aelryinth
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The point people are missing is that the rules for metamagic are exceptions to the normal rules and thus are exclusionary (like many other rules). If the description does not list you as being allowed to scribe metamagiced spells into your spellbook, you cannot. The rules explicitly allow you to store modified spells into wands, potions and scrolls. Period. Nowhere does it say you can copy modified spells into spellbooks - therefore you cannot.
So when you get a scroll of Maximized Magic Missile, you cannot copy Magic Missile NOR Maximized Magic Missile into your spellbook, because the modified spell cannot be transferred to another medium save for a wand, scroll or potion. These are the only place that such spells can exist (save prepared in your spell slots, obviously).
No, he's putting words in my mouth and flatly stating he's right and I'm wrong, without bothering to prove his point and defend his faulty logic. I.e. he lost the argument, and is resorting to name-calling.
===Aelryinth
I'm still not sure where you get that he's calling you names.
Unless "Wrong" is a name to you. But if that were the case, then any assertion toward an end in an argument would be "name-calling" and thus suddenly invalidated by your standards.
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According to the logic that Aelryinth has presented, you cannot separate out the metamagic in a scroll because it's an integral part of the scroll...indivisible. It's something that the creator of the scroll already expended the effort for.
So you don't need the metamagic feat to use the scroll (explicitly supported by the rules) and you don't need the metamagic feat to cast spells with metamagic, provided they were copied into your spellbook from scrolls that contained that metamagic (this is nowhere mentioned in the rules).
Following this logic, caster level is an integral part of a scroll. If you purchase a CL 20 dispel magic scroll, the creator of that scroll has already put forth all of the effort to perfect the spell. If you cast it from the scroll, the spell has a caster level of 20 (explicitly supported by the rules). If you copy that scroll into your spellbook (even though you are only a 5th level Wizard), shouldn't you (by the very same logic) be able to cast that spell forever more as though your caster level were 20?
Now, I think that's nutty. But I'm guessing that nowhere in the rules on scrolls (or copying scrolls into spellbooks) will Aelryinth find any rule that indicates that a scroll's caster level can somehow be separated from a scroll, but a metamagic feat cannot.
.....feeding troll
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The idea that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed onto a scroll should be dropped, because it has been proven that they can. That is causing just as much confusion as anything else going on here.
The main issues that I'm seeing is the idea of being able to a) scribe a metamagic-enhanced (or for that matter any) spell from a scroll into a wizard's spell book and b) whether or not a metamagic-enhanced spell is a different spell.
I just want to be clear before I get going on this.
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The idea that metamagic-enhanced spells can't be scribed onto a scroll should be dropped, because it has been proven that they can.
Affirming that something has been proven is very far away for proving that thing.
You can feel that you have proven that point, but most of us disagree with you.As you are essentially claiming DM fiat to prove your point I think there is little reason to continue this discussion.
I wish I could play with Aelyrinth's DM. Then I would never actually have to buy a metamagic feat as a wizard. I could just buy the spells I want to metamagic on a scroll, scribe them in my book, and memorize them with my normal slots and spend the feat on something else. Is that how you play it Aelyrinth?
Wizards in your campaigns get a little extra bonus from your misinterpretation of the rules of not having to buy metamagic feats because they can buy scrolls with metamagicked spells they want and copy them in their spellbook? That how you do it?
Screw over every other class by forcing them to buy metamagic feats to use them, but the old wizard can get them for free as a new spell? You think that's what the designers intended?
Way to power up wizards even further. How I would love to buy Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball and Empowered Caustic Eruption for my spellbook without ever having to waste the feat slot.
Heck, while we're at it why don't I totally ignore the spell research rules and just make up metamagic version of spells for my spellbook and pay the cost. I'll do spell research and make a bunch of quickened spells up at equivalent slots and never buy the feat.
Yeah. That's how the rules work. Spell research and Scribe Scroll, two feats that completely obviate the need to purchase a single metamagic feat for a wizard.
That's how you see it, eh Aelyrinth? You think that's the rule?
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Heck, while we're at it why don't I totally ignore the spell research rules and just make up metamagic version of spells for my spellbook and pay the cost. I'll do spell research and make a bunch of quickened spells up at equivalent slots and never buy the feat.
Yeah. That's how the rules work. Spell research and Scribe Scroll, two feats that completely obviate the need to purchase a single metamagic feat for a wizard.
Spell research, if you have the money, the time and the DM approve the spell can completely obviate the need to purchase any and all metamagic feats.
The "little" problem is that:
1) it cost money and time;
2) if you want to mix and match the effects of different metamagic feats to tailor the spell for different situations (silent, still, empowered, ecc.) you will need to research several version of the same spell.
3) the DM will have to approve the new spell. A Quickened Magic Missile spell is a thing, Maddigan Fast Magic Missile, a swift action level 5 spells that has the damage cap of a level 5 spell is something different, even if it is similar to a Quickened Magic Missile.
You will not find those spells as a "common" spell purchase. Copying a spell from another wizard say:
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
Unless the seller is willing to devalue his work selling it cheaply a special spell will cost dearly. Until it fall in the hands of someone willing to share it at a low cost with everyone that is interested* it will be a seller controlled market.
For the seller it is much more interesting to sell one coy of the spell at several thousand gp with the request that the buyer will not share it with anyone than selling tens of copies at a few hundreds of gp as the market will dry up very fast.
* I had a player doing that in a old Forgotten Realm campaign. He got hold of Snilloc Snowball Storm. Not a very powerful spell, but useful in mass combat or on a battlefield.
As he was a multiclass cleric/wizard of Mystra and a War Wizard he sent a copy of the spell to several temples of Mystra and shared it with the War Wizards organizations. By his action alone the rarity of the spell dropped from very rare to uncommon in the whole region.
Heck, while we're at it why don't I totally ignore the spell research rules and just make up metamagic version of spells for my spellbook and pay the cost. I'll do spell research and make a bunch of quickened spells up at equivalent slots and never buy the feat.
Yeah. That's how the rules work. Spell research and Scribe Scroll, two feats that completely obviate the need to purchase a single metamagic feat for a wizard.
Spell research, if you have the money, the time and the DM approve the spell can completely obviate the need to purchase any and all metamagic feats.
The "little" problem is that:
1) it cost money and time;
2) if you want to mix and match the effects of different metamagic feats to tailor the spell for different situations (silent, still, empowered, ecc.) you will need to research several version of the same spell.
3) the DM will have to approve the new spell. A Quickened Magic Missile spell is a thing, Maddigan Fast Magic Missile, a swift action level 5 spells that has the damage cap of a level 5 spell is something different, even if it is similar to a Quickened Magic Missile.You will not find those spells as a "common" spell purchase. Copying a spell from another wizard say:
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
Unless the seller is willing to devalue his work selling it cheaply a special spell will cost dearly. Until it fall in the hands of someone willing to share it at a low cost with everyone that is interested* it will be a seller controlled market.
For the seller it is much more interesting to sell one coy of the spell at several thousand gp with the request that the buyer will not share it with anyone than selling tens of copies at a few hundreds of gp as the market will dry up very fast.*...
If I use Aelyrinth's rules, all I have to do is find a wizard with Quicken Spell and magic missile and copy it into my spellbook.
I don't think I would allow metamagic to be developed as spell research. I don't need to do a lot of spells. I can cherry pick a few spells for spell research and metamagic them for overall greater effect. For example, I can do caustic eruption or delayed blast fireball empowered which exceeds the power of a 9th level spell. I can get Quickened dimension door and enervate for an 8th level slot. Then I can do insane energy drain.
If I allow a prepared caster to circumvent the feat cost of metamagic spells, I would be messing up the game rules fairly badly. You are not going to metamagic that many spells. I would gladly forego the feat cost to pay some gold for key metamagic spells I know I'll use over wasting the feat slot.
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If I use Aelyrinth's rules, all I have to do is find a wizard with Quicken Spell and magic missile and copy it into my spellbook.
No. Even if you use Aelyrunth's rules it is more complicated than that.
You need to find a spellcaster with magic missile, quicken spell and scribe scroll.
You need to have him write as quickened scroll.
You have to pay for it.
You need to comprehend it.
At that point you can scribe the spell in your spellbook as the metamagiched spell Quckened Magic Missile.
If you want to skip the scroll part, the spellcaster need to be from a class that use spellbooks, he need to have, at some time, got a copy of the spell with the appropriate metamagic and to have copied it in his spellbook.
in the example of the Quickened MM he will, as a minimum, ask for the money he would ask for copying a level 5 spell. Even more if possible.