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Did he go by Nightwing by chance? (;Yes. My first character was a street urchin that became a circus acrobat then developed his own martial art style from his circus routine.And a fun character he was!
XD I'm a Marvel fan, so I never made the connection. As you can see earlier in the thread, no he does not.
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I'd make them spellcasters.
No, seriously. The whole "ki pool" idea is basically just spellcasting by another name. Just give the monk a spell list at 4th level, same as the paladin and the ranger, and make everything the monk can spend a ki point to do a spell. Granted, most of these spells would have to be swift actions, but then we could give the monk some other spells off of some other classes' spell lists. I don't have a problem with a monk being able to cast Bull's Strength on himself, especially if he'd have to use a standard action to do so (and thus forfeit how many attacks?) Plus, the idea of a monk scribing a scroll of Stunning Fist, then a wizard copying it into his spellbook is just too amazing to pass up.
Another thing-- I wouldn't make Stunning Fist a feat, I'd just make it a feature of the monk class. Monks get it as a bonus feat, and everything about the feat says "If you're not a monk, I'm not worth spending a feat on." Who else but a monk would want this? And even if a non-monk character did have a need to be able to stun people by punching them, why wouldn't they just take a level of monk and get Improved Unarmed Strike plus being able to punch for a d6 instead of a d3?
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I'd make them spellcasters.
No, seriously. The whole "ki pool" idea is basically just spellcasting by another name. Just give the monk a spell list at 4th level, same as the paladin and the ranger, and make everything the monk can spend a ki point to do a spell. Granted, most of these spells would have to be swift actions, but then we could give the monk some other spells off of some other classes' spell lists. I don't have a problem with a monk being able to cast Bull's Strength on himself, especially if he'd have to use a standard action to do so (and thus forfeit how many attacks?) Plus, the idea of a monk scribing a scroll of Stunning Fist, then a wizard copying it into his spellbook is just too amazing to pass up.
Another thing-- I wouldn't make Stunning Fist a feat, I'd just make it a feature of the monk class. Monks get it as a bonus feat, and everything about the feat says "If you're not a monk, I'm not worth spending a feat on." Who else but a monk would want this? And even if a non-monk character did have a need to be able to stun people by punching them, why wouldn't they just take a level of monk and get Improved Unarmed Strike plus being able to punch for a d6 instead of a d3?
I agree. Though I also like Decisive Strike from WotC's PHII. It could be brutal with a monk who has combat patrol.
I'd make them spellcasters. No, seriously. The whole "ki pool" idea is basically just spellcasting by another name.
Scroll up -- that's exactly what I did. Stunning Fist is replaced by an attack-delivery hold person or hold monster.
To fix monks, first of all you'd have to make their bonus feats list larger, especially to accommodate certain builds. Second, at 6th level, give monks the Greater combat maneuver feats, so they don't have to have the prerequisites, whether it's Str, Dex, or Int.
Maybe give the ability to swap bonus feats when you get to a certain level, like fighters can.
Also, fix combat feats like Dirty Trick and Steal, so that Rogues and the Dex classes are good at them... not fighters and Barbarians. Thematically, it's all wrong.
Next, fix the prices of items, so monk items aren't so damn expensive. The pricing of magic items is biased against monks, further nerfing them. For example, Amulet of Fists should be the same price and a magic sword. And Bracers of Armor should be the same price as Magical Armor.
Next, make monk abilities like Oracle abilities, in the sense of letting them choose different abilities at different levels, instead of having a standard progression. The archettypes help with that of course, but the basic monk should be more flexible.
Have more monk abilities to choose from, especially abilities that are cinematic to how they look/feel in movies.
Make feats like Spider Step and Cloud Step suck less and allow them to be taken earlier. Half the Slow Fall distance? How about the entire Slow Fall distance? It's not like Monk's have a lot of feats anyway. And you gotta wonder why you'd take these feats when they can just jump everything.
Also, Monk's desperately need a role, something they're pretty good at. They don't really have anything currently. Fastest runner doesn't count and it doesn't mean much when high level casters start doing their thing.
That's just a start. Once you make those changes, check the power level and adjust further from there if needed.
the balance argument doesn't hold up? How?
Indeed the monk does eventually gain full bab with the flurry option (and further in pathfinder, so that flurry is above and beyond their bab, check the latter levels), but they don't get it immediately, they have other focuses other than combat.
A monk is also a mystic, not just or completely a warrior/fighter/samurai. To get their monk non-combat special abilities takes time, focus and development. If one wanted a more melee heavy monk, you could mix it with fighter, a prestige class, ranger if going against specific enemies or even swashbuckler (unarmed are light weapons). I've seen some of this done, and they get pretty solid.
A monk is also a contemplative character, a person with a deep spirituality and a philosophy that gives them special abilities (hence the bonuses). War is not all they are good for.
the balance argument doesn't hold up? How?
If a full BAB is acceptable in one situation, I don’t see why it isn't acceptable in all of them. No other class has situational BAB. We'd all think it was ridiculous if the Ranger only had a full BAB only when firing a bow, the Barbarian only when enraged, the Paladin only when smiting, or the Fighter only with weapons he is trained in. Even the magically enhanced BAB of 3.5 Divine Power applied in ALL situations as long as the spell was in effect.
But the monk is rolling attacks at his full BAB. The only difference is when flurry is used, which has a penalty to all attacks that round. Gain a couple of levels and the penalty goes away. Getting an extra attack is a powerful ability especially when there is no limit to number of times per day. The penalty to flurry at early levels is the balancing mechanism to the extra attack. The situational BAB thing doesn't apply at later levels.
The monk starts with their unarmed up to d6, the ability to flurry, the best saves in the game through their training of mind and body. They have laid the framework to develop their ki abilities which come as the levels progress, abilities the +1 bab per level and d10-d12 hit die classes do not get (purity, wholeness, strikes counting as magical, slow fall, still mind, in path core even more abilities), but, it is not balanced for them to get their ki abilities, and the highest bab, and the highest (or second highest) hit die.
There must be balance.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
And yet an incredibly important illusion, to try and uphold.
Perhaps balance is democracy?
The situational BAB they're referring to isn't the normal BAB - they're not saying flurry shouldn't have the penalties. What they're saying is that a monk flurries at full BAB - that is, at BAB=level, before the penalties are applied, but that when not flurrying its BAB is 3/4 level.
Seriously ?
Did you even read about my 8 Dex monk with 30 AC when using barkskin from qinggong spell-like ability ?
I get 10 + 5 from Wisdom, +4 from monk levels, + 1 natural from sacred mountain, -1 from Dexterity, + 4 from Bracers of armor, and + 2 from ring of protection.30 AC for an unarmored character is more than the ranger's archer AC when using a nice light armor...AC is THE big thing of monks.
+1. I had a sorcerer (1 level) monk (5 levels)of the sacred mountain. His Ac was in the 30 mid thirties with a single ki point. I'm not sure that AC is the issue.
I've always thought that at level 5 or 6 monks should get the ability to use wisdom instead of strength to deal damage. It always seemed logical that someone who studies unarmed combat and ki flow would be able to attack creatures at their weakest points rather than just punch them in the face. Maybe something like they take a move action and are able to see the ki flow of their enemy so that when they attack they are hitting pressure points, disrupting energy flow or striking vital organs rather than just pummeling creatures haphazardly.
This would reduce the MAD issue with monks and ensure that people didn't just take a one level monk dip to get god like warrior clerics.
It varies from dm to dm, but all groups should be balanced.
So if all are playing pretty equal classes (no wroughty variants of base classes, only approved prestige classes) no f***ing dread necromancers!
:)
Now I might sound like quite the resistant dm here, but there is a lot of unbalance out there, a lot of classes that give too much in even the first few levels.
Scroll up -- that's exactly what I did. Stunning Fist is replaced by an attack-delivery hold person or hold monster.
WAIT I CAN DO THAT?
WAIT I CAN DO THAT?
Just about. You're a 5th level monk with a 15 Wisdom, giving you 2 o-level and 2 first-level ki powers known. You already know feather fall; add another 0-level power and pick, say, touch of nausea as one of your 1st level powers. 4/day first-level ki uses means that 4/day you could make standard unarmed or chain attacks that also carries the effects of that power. Nauseated is almost as good as stunned.
Of course, you want to keep one of those slots in reserve to maintain the +1 enhancement bonus to all your attacks.
At 6th level, when you learn a 2nd level ki power, you could grab hold person, and have a paralyzing fist/paralyzing chain, which is better than stunning.
Arrrgh, character options, the horror!
Yeah. I've been re-reading some of Frank and K's tome stuff, and it always strikes me that they eliminate every option but "the best ones" and just give you those, and figure the other ones aren't worth mentioning.
I prefer nitpickier character generation, so while I might give you the most obvious top and last choice options as class features, I also like to have a laundry list of second-tier choices to pick from.
Huh, I didn't get that impression. Maybe because I only really pay attention to the feats. There are enough of those that you are going to have to pick and choose at some point, even if your first couple are obvious choices. Not even a fighter can get them all.
I think that's where the difference comes in -- Frank and K have designed something like 14 trillion base and prestige classes, and then give you feats to customize those -- it's a very 3.5-friendly approach. One of my big goals was to get rid of the PrCs, so it meant making the classes themselves more flexible.
At the end of the day I don't think it matters much -- 100 classes at 3 pages each or 10 classes at 30 pages each, you've still got 300 pages' worth of classes.
I like the prestige classes for the in-jokes. :D
My favorite is the capstone feature of almost every base class: "At 20th level, you win the game. Note: this does not affect the game."
That's a classic. People who get upset about 'unprofessionalism' in homebrew are silly.
Depends in what areas -- the bulk of the tomes stuff is pretty well-balanced for the type of game they play; they have minimal spelling errors (although they prefer bombast to grammar); they understand how the d20 rules work. That's all fairly professional compared to a lot of published stuff.
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Nah, just remembering someone who complained about that exact line, saying it proved that the writers were unprofessional and none of their work was worth using.
Of course, then there's this.
Of course, then there's this.
(cue Beavis and Butthead comments)
Well, to be fair, I haven't seen enough played to really say if they might be a little bit weak.
However, from what I have seen and read, I don't think they are stupidly weak. So to be honest I don't think they need any fixing.
Funniest monk battle I've seen, (3.5) a defensive, dodge heavy monk/drunken master go to town on an offensive, tripping and combat manoeuver tree, pure monk.
Drunk monk had far higher ac, more damage.
Pure monk had more abilities, was not on flurry penalties anymore, but couldn't hit, couldn't get a trip or grapple off. He backed out of that fight with that master (was close to the same level). He was very surprised, but in that game it was simply a matter of not getting lucky enough against a heavy hitter and high ac monk, who really had two focuses.
Alas the monk player was a bit annoyed his character was so specialised and couldn't always deal well with social situations or unusual encounters. He was great against golems, not so good against high ac fighters, or things that went through his limited hp quickly. By emphasising ac, his saves were only good, none were great, and that can really bite you in the arse.
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I already said make them spellcasters, but I understand that maybe some people don't want that. Alternatively, I'd let monks get a little more use of their ki pool. I've thought about it, and here's a few things I'd let monks spend a ki point to do.
-Add their wisdom bonus to attack and damage rolls for one turn (can't be used the same turn you spent a ki point for an extra attack)
-Get a +10 bonus on a STR, DEX, or WIS-based skill check(must be a skill they have ranks in)
-The next time they would provoke an AoO this round, they don't provoke it
-Get an extra use of Stunning Fist
-Attempt a feint as a swift action
I think being able to do that would help give monks some extra flexibility without overpowering them or distorting their focus. The skill check one especially gives the monk some out-of-combat capability that lets him contribute to social situations without having to be the face of the party.
You could fuse the monk with something like the wu jen with an altered spell list. But if the monk has spells, can't have all the normal monk benefits. Making some type of ki sorcerer, not a mobile brawler.
My first ever D&D character was a Monk. I love them.
I would replace the majority of the Monk's class features with psionic abilities and give them their own class power list, focusing heavily on powers that can be manifested as swift actions.
Failing that, I would at least expand the scope and scale of ki powers to give Monks more options in and out of combat.
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The Zen Archer can spend a ki point to add 50' to the range increment of the arrows he shoots. I would let other monks do something similar with shuriken. Perhaps the monk could change the range increment to 20' at 4th level, 30' at 8th level and 40' at 12th level.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so if someone else already suggested this, so be it.
"Why ever not? Ranger has spells, full BAB, similar access to bonus feats, and assorted other benefits. Why must monks have fewer class abilities than rangers?"
The ranger gets spells yes, after a number of levels. You shouldn't use the argument that rangers get spells so as to give monks sorcerer spellcasting or something like that. Rangers never get very many and their list is limited compared to something like a pure spellcaster.
Having as many class abilities as the ranger isn't the point, the point is that there must be balance. If the monk has less but they are as strong or quite useful that can balance. If they have more but they are weaker that can also equal.
I like the idea of monks as psions. Playing a heavy force damage psion can even feel a bit like a monk, but you are more fragile.
Who needs monks when you can have a super modular Martial Artist that can be anything from a no-magic streetfighting type to a super zen ki using shaolin monk?
BRAVO!
*standing ovation*
EDIT: I am being completely honest here, I really loved it. I can even see it using weapons and replacing the fighter altogether...
I prefer ninjas to monks. Some of the nice ki feats that came out were damn solid. Lengthen out your ki, do other things, be a ninja of the night.
Course monks also can take flying kick, fiery fists and ki energy balls (forgot feat name).
Well, if I ran a game there are 4 things I would like to try as a GM and see where it takes a Monk player. This is what I would say.
Full BAB. The Flurry thing and the Maneuvers bonus thing pointed to this, but they chickened out. It is time, at long last, for a martial class to get Full BAB, especially after all the other goodies other classes got. Here's looking at you, Paladin.
Bonus movement is given Monk type bonus so that it works with untyped bonuses, Haste, etc.
Amulet of Mighty Fists shouldn't cost more than bonuses on a weapon or else there should be gloves and gauntlets and brass knuckles/cestus things that can be used as weapons and enchanted at the weapon cost.
Wholeness of Body should work like Paladin's Lay on Hands without Mercies. I.e., swift action on self and usable on others.
Ultimate Combat is said to be THE book for monks and goes a long way to making them better.
If that and Ultimate Combat and all the Archetypes still don't get you to the Monk that you want, if that is still "too weak", don't play a Monk.
So... to be clear, amulet of mighty fists are significantly cheaper, no penalties for flurry, wholeness of body becomes lay on hands, their beef to base speed is kept on top of everything else the monk class gives. Lets think about this. Hmmmmm. All I can say is ......bwahahahahahahahahaha. You got no clue what a monk is.
There has been a long-running resentment against monks weaknesses, and a wish for them to be fighters, with monk abilities on top. Balance is not being considered here, and there is a definite move away from the monk having any weaknesses.