Ah….. barbarians.
Upon release of the core rule book I was pretty disappointed with the options given to the class. The fighter seemed such a better choice for he got more or less the same to-hit and damage bonus from his class features compared to the rage str bonus, plus a much higher AC and feat selections.
The tide has turned with the APG and UC, and now the different archetypes for the barbarian and the new rage powers make it a very nice class, able to really shine outside the pure DPR competition with the fighter (and maybe even win that one too).
I was looking at the beast totems line of rage powers and kept wondering if anyone actually got around to optimize, or at least crank a little bit of love (and rage) onto those claws the barbarian gets.
From a pure mechanical point of view, people grab the beast totems to get pounce, but use a manufactured weapon with it. I was thinking of a Wolverine type character (yes probably with the invulnerable rager archetype) that use the claws. Any way to make it work ? I suppose you’d be stuck with two attacks per round (both claws are primary natural weapons?) at 1x STR mod.
If someone also have some nice idea on how to tack some Fast healing on a mostly barb build that’s a big plus.
-Jelly
check out
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/barbarians
and
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/barbarianMakingGuide&page=1&source=search#39
Well thanks Andy, unfortunately both links point towards MASSIVE threads on barbarians discussing the awesomeness of the class. The only link to the Trinam AM BARBARIAN guide I found there was a doc with only the introduction, no content whatsoever.
I am well aware of the nice builds that can be accomplished for a barbarian. I am really looking for a build centered around the lesser totem claws, and after going through 15 pages of posts in both threads I am still short on that info... and my eyes are bleeding. I need to adjust that blurry screen...
:(
-Jelly
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If you choose to be a half-orc you can easily get a bite attack so you will have 3 primary natural weapons so you can have 3 attacks for a full attack action while raging. Other than that you will probably want to grab the elemental rage line of powers in order to add damage to your attacks since amulets of mighty fists cost so much.
Outside of the barbarian class, Improved Natural Attack would be a nice addition if your GM allows it. Rending Claws and Rhino Charge would also be nice feats to pick up at some point.
You really wont find comments about optimizing the claws, cause they aren't very good. You will only have 2 attacks for the entirety of your career, natural weapons don't get iterative attacks. The best thing you can do, would be to grab a reach weapon, and when things get too tight switch from it to your claws. Or go into dragon disciple to get a good bite attack and some bonus strength, combined with arcane strike at least your hits will be pretty strong.
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You really wont find comments about optimizing the claws, cause they aren't very good. You will only have 2 attacks for the entirety of your career, natural weapons don't get iterative attacks. The best thing you can do, would be to grab a reach weapon, and when things get too tight switch from it to your claws. Or go into dragon disciple to get a good bite attack and some bonus strength, combined with arcane strike at least your hits will be pretty strong.
Well that's just totally untrue. Natural attacks (claws, bite, gore, etc) on a Pouncing Barbarian are awesome. Limiting yourself to JUST the claws are the problem.
There are really 3 things you must do to really use natural attacks at full strength for any melee class.
1. You need at least 3 natural attacks, so pick up a bite ASAP.
This will give you 3 full strength/full BaB attacks every round.
2. Pick up a level of monk with the martial artist archetype for Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry of Blows and Multiattack.
This lets you have all your regular iterative attacks in addition to your natural attacks. Penalties exist but keep reading.
3. Pick up feral combat training for each of your natural attacks.
This lets you use your natural attacks during a flurry of blows and increases the damage die size of all your natural attacks. More importantly it removes all the penalties from mixing natural attacks and iterative attacks.
Result is a a raging barbarian who can pounce with 6 attacks a round and best of all 4 are at full BaB -2.
Though feat heavy, with this build very little should live past one round of rage.
Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.
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Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.
Yes, that's why you take it for each natural attack you have (I'm pretty sure I listed that in the directions).
I also underestimated the combat effectiveness of this pouncing build (didn't have my books with me).
While Raging and Power Attacking this pouncer has 7 attacks a round with 3 at Bab -1 and 2 at Bab -2
+12/+12/+7/+2/+12 claw/+12 claw/+12 Bite,
With each attack doing 1D6+12 (Claws do 1D8+12)
Throw on a monks robe and every attack is at 1D8+12 (base, before optimization and gear).
With this as the base I'd leave it up to the Barbarian optimizers to tweak it into the unstoppable engine of destruction this will be.
Nothing should live through this barbs attacks.
Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.Yes, that's why you take it for each natural attack you have (I'm pretty sure I listed that in the directions).
Which wouldn't matter, and is wasteful. It doesn't mater how many things you are wielding that you can flurry with, it's a full round action, so you can only flurry once a round.
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Which wouldn't matter, and is wasteful. It doesn't mater how many things you are wielding that you can flurry with, it's a full round action, so you can only flurry once a round.Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.Yes, that's why you take it for each natural attack you have (I'm pretty sure I listed that in the directions).
The point is to do a massive amount of damage reliably and consistently. Natural Attacks + iterative attacks do a monstrous number of attacks per round and consistently hit, HARD. When you are discussing barbarian builds that's really what your after.
If you want something else play a different class.
Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.Yes, that's why you take it for each natural attack you have (I'm pretty sure I listed that in the directions).
I also underestimated the combat effectiveness of this pouncing build (didn't have my books with me).
While Raging and Power Attacking this pouncer has 7 attacks a round with 3 at Bab -1 and 2 at Bab -2+12/+12/+7/+2/+12 claw/+12 claw/+12 Bite,
With each attack doing 1D6+12 (Claws do 1D8+12)Throw on a monks robe and every attack is at 1D8+12 (base, before optimization and gear).
With this as the base I'd leave it up to the Barbarian optimizers to tweak it into the unstoppable engine of destruction this will be.Nothing should live through this barbs attacks.
Sorry mate, that's not how it works.
The Natural attacks would be at half strength to damage, for starters.
It's no worth it at all to get Feral combat training twice, cause it would be FOUR feats just for that.
I have created a Monster combining martial artist and Barbarian, but bite is out.
There is a pure barbarian way to go with this, that is picking the brawler rage power chain.
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Feral combat training allows you to flurry with a natural attack, not flurry with every natural attack you have.Yes, that's why you take it for each natural attack you have (I'm pretty sure I listed that in the directions).
I also underestimated the combat effectiveness of this pouncing build (didn't have my books with me).
While Raging and Power Attacking this pouncer has 7 attacks a round with 3 at Bab -1 and 2 at Bab -2+12/+12/+7/+2/+12 claw/+12 claw/+12 Bite,
With each attack doing 1D6+12 (Claws do 1D8+12)Throw on a monks robe and every attack is at 1D8+12 (base, before optimization and gear).
With this as the base I'd leave it up to the Barbarian optimizers to tweak it into the unstoppable engine of destruction this will be.Nothing should live through this barbs attacks.
Sorry mate, that's not how it works.
The Natural attacks would be at half strength to damage, for starters.
It's no worth it at all to get Feral combat training twice, cause it would be FOUR feats just for that.
I have created a Monster combining martial artist and Barbarian, but bite is out.
There is a pure barbarian way to go with this, that is picking the brawler rage power chain.
The normal rules for mixing iterative attacks and natural attacks would make the natural attacks at half strength. HOWEVER the monk has a special rule built into it's flurry of blows that supercede this (specific over the general) where it states:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands
This makes all legal attacks used while flurrying at full strength.
The Feral Combat training also treats all your natural attacks as unarmed strikes for effects so this also makes those attacks at full Bab as well (no longer treating them as natural attacks so no mixing penalty as well).
Now admittedly the bite is simply extra work and is expensive (feat wise) to accomplish so it CAN be skipped if you have a specific feat build you want but I see that extra full strength attack as too good to pass up, but I optimize for Rangers not Barbarians so you may know something I don't.
It seems like an interesting idea, but doesn't really hold a candle to the traditionally optimized barbarian with a 2H weapon, Power Attack, Raging Brutality, Pounce and Wild Rager. One attack less (Always take the Ragebite!)but hits so much harder and no feat sink or multi-classing.
That being said, I find the idea awesome. Imagined a wolverine-esqu rager clawing and biting his through a spell with Spell Sunder and Smasher. Seems like low and mid levels would suck balls though, until you had your feats built up.
The normal rules for mixing iterative attacks and natural attacks would make the natural attacks at half strength. HOWEVER the monk has a special rule built into it's flurry of blows that supercede this (specific over the general) where it states:
Quote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both handsThis makes all legal attacks used while flurrying at full strength.
The Feral Combat training also treats all your natural attacks as unarmed strikes for effects so this also makes those attacks at full Bab as well (no longer treating them as natural attacks so no mixing penalty as well).
Now admittedly the bite is simply extra work and is expensive (feat wise) to accomplish so it CAN be skipped if you have a specific feat build you want but I see that extra full strength attack as too good to pass up, but I optimize for Rangers not Barbarians so you may know something I don't.
Sorry mate, I'm not sure I'm understanding the rules correctly from feral combat then. How is it that you ignore the natural attack rules and threat them as Unnarmed? Care to elaborate, please?
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Sorry mate, I'm not sure I'm understanding the rules correctly from feral combat then. How is it that you ignore the natural attack rules and threat them as Unnarmed? Care to elaborate, please?The normal rules for mixing iterative attacks and natural attacks would make the natural attacks at half strength. HOWEVER the monk has a special rule built into it's flurry of blows that supercede this (specific over the general) where it states:
Quote:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both handsThis makes all legal attacks used while flurrying at full strength.
The Feral Combat training also treats all your natural attacks as unarmed strikes for effects so this also makes those attacks at full Bab as well (no longer treating them as natural attacks so no mixing penalty as well).
Now admittedly the bite is simply extra work and is expensive (feat wise) to accomplish so it CAN be skipped if you have a specific feat build you want but I see that extra full strength attack as too good to pass up, but I optimize for Rangers not Barbarians so you may know something I don't.
Sure, it took me a minute to get it myself too. Originally I hated the feral combat training feats and felt they were too expensive and too weak until I realized UC was all about the monk class.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I bolded the important parts of the feat in the spoiler above.
This allows you make a flurry of blows and add your natural attacks to it. Important point you don't replace any of your existing flurry attacks you just perform the natural attacks at the same time.
Next take this rule from the monk FoB rule:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
This specifically states that MONKS use full strength on all attacks made as part of a flurry of blows. This specific rule overrides the general rule that some natural attacks do half damage when mixed with iterative attacks.
The devs have always stated that specific rules overrule general rules.Finally you take the monk specific rule for unarmed strike (which your natural attacks are treated as if you have feral combat training with them for effects that improve them).
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk.
These effects augment unarmed strikes so they augment natural attacks to so they remove the off-hand penalties for using natural attacks with iterative attacks.
Effectively what you have done with these 4 feats and a single level monk dip is changed the rules on your natural attacks so they are now treated as MONK unarmed strikes (which have their own unique set of rules).
Also it's not really that expensive, you can have it done by 4th level and spend the next 16 levels spending your feats on whatever you want.
@alwaysafk, Yes the 2hd Barbarian will always hit harder on each hit (about %50 harder) but he will max out at 5 (6 with the bite) attacks a round with that 2hder. This build will max out at 10 attacks a round and have a MUCH higher chance to hit with most of his attacks.
I'm still learning to crunch the numbers on Barb DPR but I'm pretty sure that 10 attacks a round with a better to hit bonus more than makes up for the slightly lower damage per hit. Add to that everything the 2hder does the natural weapon user can too, he just gets more attacks to apply that to.
Well. Ok, I can see the reasoning behind it. But if anything that augment unnarmed strikes augment the natural weapons, why not enhance the damage die, like the Monk does with his unnarmed strikes?
Also, there is no "off-hand penalty" for natural weapons, they are just treated as secondary, when you attack with anything else but them.
So, I don't see how it would work for the penalty to hit, at least.
EDIT: Also, how would you have it done by fourth level with a Barbarian monk?
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Well. Ok, I can see the reasoning behind it. But if anything that augment unnarmed strikes augment the natural weapons, why not enhance the damage die, like the Monk does with his unnarmed strikes?
Also, there is no "off-hand penalty" for natural weapons, they are just treated as secondary, when you attack with anything else but them.
So, I don't see how it would work for the penalty to hit, at least.EDIT: Also, how would you have it done by fourth level with a Barbarian monk?
It does enhance the damage die, the default damage for claws and teeth are a 1D4, this makes them a 1D6. The real trick is to get enough monk levels to get them up to a 1D8. THEN you take improved natural attack to get em up to a 2D6, but that's feat intensive.
Secondary attacks are "technically" just another type of off-hand penalty but if your GM doesn't like it then just take the multi-attack feat and you come out at about the same to hit score (you'd have to take multi-attack feat but you were going to do that anyway).
For getting it at 4th level that was a type it's actually at 5th.
A human barbarian would do this:
Barb 1st: Weapon Focus (Bite)
Human Bonus: Feral Combat Training (bite) (adopted trait to get orc bite)
Barb 2nd: Beast Totem (Claws)
Monk 1st: Weapon Focus (Claws)
Bonus Feat: any
Barb 4th: Feral Combat training (Claws)
It's going to be tough to convince a GM of your interpretation. If feral training said you got natural attacks in addition instead of use it would be more clear cut. Also Feral Combat Training requires improved unarmed strike, so you can't pick it up until you get a level of monk, so you're progression is a little off.
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It's going to be tough to convince a GM of your interpretation. If feral training said you got natural attacks in addition instead of use it would be more clear cut. Also Feral Combat Training requires improved unarmed strike, so you can't pick it up until you get a level of monk, so you're progression is a little off.
The hard rules on ALL natural attacks are that you take them in ADDITION to any iterative attacks you have.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).
You can ALWAYS add your natural attacks to regular attacks, they just go as secondary/off hand attacks and do half strength damage.
This feat setup fixes it.As for the progression you are absolutely right, I need to re-tweak it. I know I found a way to do it by 5th just have to remember how I did it.
It's going to be tough to convince a GM of your interpretation. If feral training said you got natural attacks in addition instead of use it would be more clear cut. Also Feral Combat Training requires improved unarmed strike, so you can't pick it up until you get a level of monk, so you're progression is a little off.The hard rules on ALL natural attacks are that you take them in ADDITION to any iterative attacks you have.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).You can ALWAYS add your natural attacks to regular attacks, they just go as secondary/off hand attacks and do half strength damage.
This feat setup fixes it.As for the progression you are absolutely right, I need to re-tweak it. I know I found a way to do it by 5th just have to remember how I did it.
I see no problem with the extra attacks from natural weapons working with Flurry and all that, the augmenting part and all the rest is a little fuzzy.
Besides, if the work the way u say they work, why would you get multiattack?I think you may be correct in your interpretation of the rules, since it's hard to pull off, but treat me like I'm 10 and try to explain it to me, hehehe.
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It's going to be tough to convince a GM of your interpretation. If feral training said you got natural attacks in addition instead of use it would be more clear cut. Also Feral Combat Training requires improved unarmed strike, so you can't pick it up until you get a level of monk, so you're progression is a little off.The hard rules on ALL natural attacks are that you take them in ADDITION to any iterative attacks you have.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).You can ALWAYS add your natural attacks to regular attacks, they just go as secondary/off hand attacks and do half strength damage.
This feat setup fixes it.As for the progression you are absolutely right, I need to re-tweak it. I know I found a way to do it by 5th just have to remember how I did it.
I see no problem with the extra attacks from natural weapons working with Flurry and all that, the augmenting part and all the rest is a little fuzzy.
Besides, if the work the way u say they work, why would you get multiattack?I think you may be correct in your interpretation of the rules, since it's hard to pull off, but treat me like I'm 10 and try to explain it to me, hehehe.
The multi-attack is only for games where the GM doesn't accept that the no off hand attack bonus monks get for unarmed strikes doesn't affect the secondary attack penalty for natural attacks.
Really all this build is doing is trying to remove the penalties you get for mixing iterative attacks and natural attacks.
Easy way to understand is, with this feat, treat that natural attack as an unarmed attack. Then apply the monk rules regarding unarmed attacks to that natural attack.
1. Natural attacks only do half strength damage, all monk unarmed attacks do full strength damage. This fixes that penalty.
2. Natural attacks become secondary/off hand attacks and get a -5 to hit. Monks don't have off-hand attacks OR Multi-attack feat reduces that penalty to a -2 to hit but you no longer get the -2 penalty from Flurry of Blows. So this removes that penalty.
3. Natural attacks have very low base die rolls (usually 1D4), monks improve all unarmed attacks die as they level. Fixes this penalty.
@Eternal E, that's the next part of the build, the dragon styles are very nice and mix EXTREMELY well with the Boar style. Massive up-front damage with a NASTY 2D6 bleed effect. When you add these two to this build it easily equals the 2hd style for damage and survivability.
I fully expect a nerf once the devs start getting complaints about how nasty powerful these builds get.
How are you getting the 10 attacks? Two claws, Bite, four from BAB at 20, one from the flurry of blows. 8 attacks. If you wanted to go the 15 levels into Monk to pick up the greater version of flurry, then you could pick up the extra two.
Also remember that barbarians and monks require opposite alignments, so you'd have to group the levels so that monk levels were early levels then grew into barbarian rage. Not sure if a monk would really rage, so other way doesn't seem to work (at least to me).
Edit: Ah, here it is.
Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. She retains all other benefits of the class.
Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Barbarian claws grow to 1D8 when you get Greater Beast Totem, so Improved natural attack and the increased monk fists would be sexy.
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How are you getting the 10 attacks? Two claws, Bite, four from BAB at 20, one from the flurry of blows. 8 attacks. If you wanted to go the 15 levels into Monk to pick up the greater version of flurry, then you could pick up the extra two.
Also remember that barbarians and monks require opposite alignments, so you'd have to group the levels so that monk levels were early levels then grew into barbarian rage. Not sure if a monk would really rage, so other way doesn't seem to work (at least to me).
Edit: Ah, here it is.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **Barbarian claws grow to 1D8 when you get Greater Beast Totem, so Improved natural attack and the increased monk fists would be sexy.
Well you do it by playing a monk with the martial artist archetype, they are allowed to be any alignment they want.
Martial Artist archetypeSecondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurry
@Shadowcatx
The first part of your comment I already addressed to andy ferguson 4 posts back, go read that.
The second part I addressed both sides of that argument there to but I'll clarify that one since it is complicated.
The secondary penalty for mixing natural and iteratives is either:
A off hand penalty in which case the monk unarmed strike modification removes that penalty
OR
it isn't an off hand penalty and the Multi attack feat reduces that penalty down to a -2 which is the same penalty you get when flurrying so the results are the same.
Secondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurry
I'm almost positive that's not what SKR meant. If you look at monk it clearly says "At 8th level" and "At 15th level," not "At +8 BAB" and "AT +15 BAB." If it worked the way you're suggesting every TWF would drop to 12 Dex, take one level in monk and never bother with the feat tree.
I think you're making too many assumptions. First is that you'll get your natural attacks in addition to flurry of blows. The feat says with, which to me means you can mix claw attacks into flurry of blows (ie. in place of a punch), not that you get flurry of blows then claw attacks.
It says exactly that, otherwise there is no need for the feat whatsoever.
I'm actually with you on the second part, however.
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I'm almost positive that's not what SKR meant. If you look at monk it clearly says "At 8th level" and "At 15th level," not "At +8 BAB" and "AT +15 BAB." If it worked the way you're suggesting every TWF would drop to 12 Dex, take one level in monk and never bother with the feat tree.
Secondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurry
They'd be limited to only the monk weapons but yeah I could see that.
As for SKR's intention I can't answer that, All I know is he has made a FAQ entry stating your flurry bonus is equal to your monk level + Bab from all other classes. Now, since your number of attacks while flurrying is tied to your actual BAB (since you treat your monk level as your bab while flurrying and uses a different chart) at monk1/barb 19 you'd have a bab 20 and get 7 attacks a round plus your natural attacks if you took these feats.
Ouch.
I'm almost positive that's not what SKR meant. If you look at monk it clearly says "At 8th level" and "At 15th level," not "At +8 BAB" and "AT +15 BAB." If it worked the way you're suggesting every TWF would drop to 12 Dex, take one level in monk and never bother with the feat tree.
Secondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurry
According to the rules it's indeed monk level for "two-weapon fighting" purposes.
They'd be limited to only the monk weapons but yeah I could see that.As for SKR's intention I can't answer that, All I know is he has made a FAQ entry stating your flurry bonus is equal to your monk level + Bab from all other classes. Now, since your number of attacks while flurrying is tied to your actual BAB (since you treat your monk level as your bab while flurrying and uses a different chart) at monk1/barb 19 you'd have a bab 20 and get 7 attacks a round plus your natural attacks if you took these feats.
Ouch.
You don't treat your BAB as your monk level. All you have to do is look at his example. He says you treat your monk BAB while flurrying as +1 (for your ONE level in monk) and add it to your +19 from fighter. He makes no mention of you pretending your monk level is 20 for flurry attempts.
Well you do it by playing a monk with the martial artist archetype, they are allowed to be any alignment they want.
Martial Artist archetypeSecondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurry
Interesting Archetype, I like it!
But I thought the increased flurry didn't build off of BAB but was actually part of having Monk hit dice, y'know getting the extra TWF feats for free.
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Edit: Forgot the penalties, but you get the idea
Wouldn't flurry be 20/19/14/9/4 (if 1 level dip) then the two claws and bite?
Would love to be wrong, this seems like it would be fun.
Well you do it by playing a monk with the martial artist archetype, they are allowed to be any alignment they want.
Martial Artist archetypeSecondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurryInteresting Archetype, I like it!
But I thought the increased flurry didn't build off of BAB but was actually part of having Monk hit dice, y'know getting the extra TWF feats for free.
** spoiler omitted **
Wouldn't flurry be 20/19/14/9/4 (if 1 level dip) then the two claws and bite?
Would love to be wrong, this seems like it would be fun.
That is the way it works. What appears to be happening is a misreading of the line in monk that says "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus" to say that his monk level magically becomes his BAB when he flurries when it quite clearly states the opposite.
What SKR was correcting was that a fighter 19/monk 1 does not suddenly drop to a +1 bab when flurrying. Assuming you get the abilities that are specifically called for having a certain level in monk is incorrect.
Well you do it by playing a monk with the martial artist archetype, they are allowed to be any alignment they want.
Martial Artist archetypeSecondly when you flurry your number of attacks is based on your total Bab not your monk level. In this case you would get your standard natural attacks + your iterative attacks + your flurry bonus attacks for bab 20 so you'd get 4 more attacks for 10 attacks around when flurrying.
SKR put a FAQ posting on it last week. monk bab flurryInteresting Archetype, I like it!
But I thought the increased flurry didn't build off of BAB but was actually part of having Monk hit dice, y'know getting the extra TWF feats for free.
** spoiler omitted **
Wouldn't flurry be 20/19/14/9/4 (if 1 level dip) then the two claws and bite?
Would love to be wrong, this seems like it would be fun.
Yeah, that's it.
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A monk can flurry with a temple sword. That doesn't mean he gets a full round attack with a temple sword and a full round attack with flurry, it means he can substitute in striking with a temple sword for striking with a punch (or what have you) in the flurry. That is the difference in the word "with" and the words "in addition to" and that is what you're missing.
And on my second point, I thought you were ignoring the -2, if you're taking that on your attacks, my bad.
You keep forgetting Natural attacks are completely separate from the regular combat rules. They do not interact AT ALL with the regular iterative rules, so whenever you mix the two together you ALWAYS get to make all your natural attacks in addition to whatever iterative attacks you have earned.
@Brotato No what he says is while you are flurrying treat your FoB BaB as equal to your Monk level + whatever bab you have earned from other classes. your FoB is based on your Bab & your Character Level not your monk level. (The entry under FoB states level not monk level)
Every multi-class character example I've seen and every bit of character gen software backs up my interpretation.
Personally I would agree with you and state that you'd get 1 extra attack from FoB but the text doesn't appear to state that.
edit: assuming that it is true and you are limited to 1 extra attack when flurrying that would only drop you to 8 attacks a round instead of 10. A noticable drop in DPR but still higher then just about every other build I've seen.
A monk can flurry with a temple sword. That doesn't mean he gets a full round attack with a temple sword and a full round attack with flurry, it means he can substitute in striking with a temple sword for striking with a punch (or what have you) in the flurry. That is the difference in the word "with" and the words "in addition to" and that is what you're missing.
And on my second point, I thought you were ignoring the -2, if you're taking that on your attacks, my bad.
You keep forgetting Natural attacks are completely separate from the regular combat rules. They do not interact AT ALL with the regular iterative rules, so whenever you mix the two together you ALWAYS get to make all your natural attacks in addition to whatever iterative attacks you have earned.
@Brotato No what he says is while you are flurrying treat your FoB BaB as equal to your Monk level + whatever bab you have earned from other classes. your FoB is based on your Bab & your Character Level not your monk level. (The entry under FoB states level not monk level)
Every multi-class character example I've seen and every bit of character gen software backs up my interpretation.
Personally I would agree with you and state that you'd get 1 extra attack from FoB but the text doesn't appear to state that.
I've always been of the opinion that unless it was specifically stated otherwise anything level dependent in a class is referring to the CLASS level. Regardless, I've started a topic in RQ so as not to derail this discussion further. If it works as you say it makes monk even more ridiculously front loaded than it already is.
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I've always been of the opinion that unless it was specifically stated otherwise anything level dependent in a class is referring to the CLASS level. Regardless, I've started a topic in RQ so as not to derail this discussion further. If it works as you say it makes monk even more ridiculously front loaded than it already is.A monk can flurry with a temple sword. That doesn't mean he gets a full round attack with a temple sword and a full round attack with flurry, it means he can substitute in striking with a temple sword for striking with a punch (or what have you) in the flurry. That is the difference in the word "with" and the words "in addition to" and that is what you're missing.
And on my second point, I thought you were ignoring the -2, if you're taking that on your attacks, my bad.
You keep forgetting Natural attacks are completely separate from the regular combat rules. They do not interact AT ALL with the regular iterative rules, so whenever you mix the two together you ALWAYS get to make all your natural attacks in addition to whatever iterative attacks you have earned.
@Brotato No what he says is while you are flurrying treat your FoB BaB as equal to your Monk level + whatever bab you have earned from other classes. your FoB is based on your Bab & your Character Level not your monk level. (The entry under FoB states level not monk level)
Every multi-class character example I've seen and every bit of character gen software backs up my interpretation.
Personally I would agree with you and state that you'd get 1 extra attack from FoB but the text doesn't appear to state that.
Oh tell me about it, in their attempt to fix the issues with the Monk class in UC they have made them the de-facto dip class for any martial or ranged build. It's sick how much of a damage boost a single monk level is for literally any class who chooses to take a dip into.
Wait till I get finished tweaking my Hexcrafter Magus/Monk build. He'll be banned from EVERY game in the world.
You keep forgetting Natural attacks are completely separate from the regular combat rules. They do not interact AT ALL with the regular iterative rules, so whenever you mix the two together you ALWAYS get to make all your natural attacks in addition to whatever iterative attacks you have earned.Except with a flurry, where natural attacks are specifically prohibited from being used, unless you take a certain feat that says you can flurry with a natural weapon. Again let me point out that you can also flurry with a temple sword. With. It doesn't say you can have natural attacks and a flurry, it says you can flurry with a natural attack.
And actually the text does state that, you gain an additional attack at X levels, but for ease of use those attacks are factored into the flurry of blows table and it seems everyone works off of that.
First point; that was how I read it initially, but now I'm not sure. Its woefully unclear under examination.
Second point: totally correct. Additional bonus attacks from flurry are clearly tied to monk level.
You can get fast healing at higher level through a ring of regeneration. Cost 90k but will regenerate 1 hp a round and grow back limbs and such.
And you can pick up the feat
Fast Healer
You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Diehard, Endurance.
Benefit: When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1).
At higher levels my Barbarian has a con mod of +10 or greater so with this feat and the 1 magical point of healing every round from the ring he has fast healing 6.
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You keep forgetting Natural attacks are completely separate from the regular combat rules. They do not interact AT ALL with the regular iterative rules, so whenever you mix the two together you ALWAYS get to make all your natural attacks in addition to whatever iterative attacks you have earned.Except with a flurry, where natural attacks are specifically prohibited from being used, unless you take a certain feat that says you can flurry with a natural weapon. Again let me point out that you can also flurry with a temple sword. With. It doesn't say you can have natural attacks and a flurry, it says you can flurry with a natural attack.
And actually the text does state that, you gain an additional attack at X levels, but for ease of use those attacks are factored into the flurry of blows table and it seems everyone works off of that.
First point; that was how I read it initially, but now I'm not sure. Its woefully unclear under examination.
Second point: totally correct. Additional bonus attacks from flurry are clearly tied to monk level.
I'm going to revise my opinion on the second point and agree with all of you and drop it down to 1 extra attack. You all made great arguments and the rules back you up totally on this.
I'm actually glad it works this way actually since it makes the barbarian/monk build that much stronger then I originally thought.(I'm new at optimizing barbarians and needed to go back and familiarize myself with the various rage powers)
The new Monk 1(Martial Artist/Master of Many Styles)/Barbarian 19 (Wild Rager) build I've developed is far nastier then the original build and truly is the Berserker Wolverine this thread started out looking for.
This build completely gives up the Flurry of blows from monk and replaces it with Fuse Style (for 2 Dragon style feats and 1 Boar style) while spending 2 rage powers picking up Brawler, Greater (to get back the extra attack from FoB).
This tweak gives him a 50% strength bonus on all attacks, a 2D6 bleed attack and brings back the 9 attacks a round. (4 from barb 19, +3 from natural attacks, +1 from greater brawler and +1 from wild fighting)
I dislike losing the 1 point of bab that keeps this build from having 10 atks/rnd but that's what haste effects are for.
Can't combine master of many styles and Martial Artist, they both give up the monk capstone. Pure Barbarian is pretty amazing though.
Can't combine master of many styles and Martial Artist, they both give up the monk capstone. Pure Barbarian is pretty amazing though.Martial artist doesn't give up the capstone. It only goes up to 19th level where it trades out Empty body for greater defensive roll
I thought the same thing, but the same ability that gives you immunity to fatigue/exhaustion/etc, replaces Perfect Self.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with alignment switching to Chaotic after that one monk level though. One thing about Wild Rager though. If you get confused, you lose ALL your rage powers until you regain control. Basically making you a really crazy person that can't hit anything well at all.
Humm, one really weird thing came up.
Say I get Weapon focus and then Feral combat training (Claws), and then I get weapon focus Unnarmed Strikes.
According to this: "you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
I would benefit twice from weapon focus on claws, right?
Even if it doesn't stack, suppose I get Weapon spec Unnarmed, then it would indeed apply to both, correct?
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Being able to fuse styles, would mean to drop the ability to flurry. And this would be a bad tradeoff, since - at least in my understanding - the flurry of blows also enables the monk to benefit from the boni of the TWF-Feat tree for free! Dropping it would mean to use only one claw attack as an umarmed strike. At least I would decide to rule it this way as a GM. I would then favor dragon style over boar style (since I think boar style is getting weak as the levels progress) If you insist on on using two styles then consider taking a genie-themed style. +1d6 and a possible nasty effect is more effective on higher Levels then the fixed 2d6 bleed damage.
Dropping the flurry of blows means nothing since the greater brawler rage power grants that benefit too.
Again natural attacks function outside the usual iterative rules so you always get all of those attacks. Just stop thinking about them they are always going to be there at full strength.As for the style feats, really ignore any of the elemental styles with the bonus damage dice. they are a sub-par option for this kind of builds. Those styles have a very limited number of uses per day, require extra feats to even use them (elemental fist), are the most resisted/immune elements in the game, only affect ONE attack, and only give you on average an extra 3.5 damage per round. It's a trap.
Dragon style is awesome if you take the first 2 feats, it makes your bonus damage roughly equal to a 2hd weapon and seriously increases your mobility.
I chose Boar style strictly for three reasons:
A. The bleed damage is free, nearly automatic and is the highest bleed effect currently in the game.
B. It gives you B/S for all your attacks. This plus eldritch claws lets you beat through all the most common DR types.
C. It's intimidate bonuses synergize great with Dragon Style.
these are two super aggressive styles that when mixed really embody the rocket tag of high level games. This is Wolverine dropping in the middle of a group of baddies and savaging everyone and nobody gets away without permanent scars.
@Xum Nope, the feat specifically states it doesn't stack so you'd only get the benefits from one of them.
Hehehe. If you go wild rager 5/ martial artist 15 you could get to 11 attacks without haste. Of course, you would lack a lot of stuff, but it would be overkill anyway.
@Xum Nope, the feat specifically states it doesn't stack so you'd only get the benefits from one of them.
Again mate, pretend I'm 5 :)
I do understand the weapon focus thingy not stacking, but weapon specialization for instance, would, right?
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@Xum Nope, the feat specifically states it doesn't stack so you'd only get the benefits from one of them.
Again mate, pretend I'm 5 :)
I do understand the weapon focus thingy not stacking, but weapon specialization for instance, would, right?
Nope, Weapon spec also states it doesn't stack. This particular feat is setup to remove penalties not grant bonuses. If you keep looking you MIGHT find a way to squeeze a point somewhere from another feat combo but you'd be really feat taxed.