Sounds like you are running the King Maker AP.
I just add lots of mooks to encounters. I also let the ranger have his fun with encounters. So don't do that all the time.
Something to think about, from pfsrd
In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6 × 10 feet. In a medium forest, this distance is 2d8 × 10 feet, and in a dense forest it is 2d6 × 10 feet.
Because any square with undergrowth provides concealment, it's usually easy for a creature to use the Stealth skill in the forest. Logs and massive trees provide cover, which also makes hiding possible.
The background noise in the forest makes Perception checks that rely on sound more difficult, increasing the DC of the check by 2 per 10 feet, not 1.
Even if the archer can ignore concealment when shooting, it still allows things to stealth up to the group, causing fights to start at near melee range. Large trees can provide total cover from certain angles, limiting the archers fire lines. Large bushes can provide total concealment, especially to little fey.
If the archer only has arrows in an efficient quiver, a targeted dispel magic will turn it off for 1d4 rounds.
The dispel item trick will lightly irritate the swordsman, as he still gets to stab you with his (now masterwork) sword. You seal off the archer's quiver, she has to look for other options.
If they have spare arrows in their haversack, it takes a move action to get them out. If they keep their spares in a bag of holding or a portable hole, it takes longer then that. If they are back at camp/at home then they are out of luck.
Our group also plays that if you are affected by a dimensional lock/anchor you can't get into your extra-dimentional spaces, so that's another way of shutting down archers reliant of magic quivers. Antimagic fields also work for this.
Of course, just having a normal quiver strapped to the side of your backpack will fix this. But with the ROF of high level archers, this won't last long. Plus it's wake up call surprise the first time you pull it.
On a different note: remember that if you don't have the strength to pull you composite bow you take a -2 to hit. So STR drain/damage will not just cut down the damage, but the to hit as well. 2 points of dex damage will cause an archer -1 to hit, 2 points of str will cause them -2 to hit and -1 damage (assuming their bow is exactly at their strength) Unless you are talking large numbers (5+) strength damage can be more detrimental.
RD: I think NPC's are more difficult to deal with than monsters, depending on the build that is. Considering some of your builds I am surprised you feel that stock monsters can compete with a customized NPC.
I never said that stock monster could compete with customized NPCs. I was trying to get across that, due to their reduced ability scores and gear, they are no more a threat to PCs than stock monsters (most of the time).
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If the archer only has arrows in an efficient quiver, a targeted dispel magic will turn it off for 1d4 rounds.
The dispel item trick will lightly irritate the swordsman, as he still gets to stab you with his (now masterwork) sword. You seal off the archer's quiver, she has to look for other options.
If they have spare arrows in their haversack, it takes a move action to get them out. If they keep their spares in a bag of holding or a portable hole, it takes longer then that. If they are back at camp/at home then they are out of luck.
Who actually keeps arrows in an efficient quiver? Drawing arrows is a normal quiver is a free action. It doesn't get more efficient than that.
Who actually keeps arrows in an efficient quiver? Drawing arrows is a normal quiver is a free action. It doesn't get more efficient than that.
In 3.5 a normal quiver held 20 arrows (5 rounds for your archer) and in pathfinder 10 crossbow bolts are stored in a quiver. So looking into how many arrows you can have reasonably ready might be helpful with your problem
RD: I think NPC's are more difficult to deal with than monsters, depending on the build that is. Considering some of your builds I am surprised you feel that stock monsters can compete with a customized NPC.I never said that stock monster could compete with customized NPCs. I was trying to get across that, due to their reduced ability scores and gear, they are no more a threat to PCs than stock monsters (most of the time).
If the stock monsters can't compete with customized NPC's then how are they not a greater threat?
i believe in weekly william's group, we have an archer that actually sucks. he is a ranger who lacks, rapid shot, manyshot and deadly aim. but, we have a lot of relatively suboptimal PCs, whom are only functioning because they have tripled wealth, custom items, and access to 3.5 material. i now have a Suli Switch Hitter Oracle (clouded vision curse) that Weekly William ignores the fact she is visually impaired. she is not a loli. nor can she be mistaken for one.
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In 3.5 a normal quiver held 20 arrows (5 rounds for your archer) and in pathfinder 10 crossbow bolts are stored in a quiver. So looking into how many arrows you can have reasonably ready might be helpful with your problem
Also the quiver only weighs 1 lb, so nothing at all stops a character from wearing five to ten of them. Especially with 18 str. And regardless of that point if the fights only last two rounds then it doesn't matter.
If the stock monsters can't compete with customized NPC's then how are they not a greater threat?RD: I think NPC's are more difficult to deal with than monsters, depending on the build that is. Considering some of your builds I am surprised you feel that stock monsters can compete with a customized NPC.I never said that stock monster could compete with customized NPCs. I was trying to get across that, due to their reduced ability scores and gear, they are no more a threat to PCs than stock monsters (most of the time).
NPCs are only weaksauce if GMs outfit them in foolish ways. If you try to spend all your NPC money on a +3 sword, you're going to be looking pretty poor when you hosed all their options for a mere +3 to hit and damage. Oh no, NPCs have better options than that. Potions, wands, scrolls, alchemical items. All that junk is wonderful for NPCs.
Ever play BG I or II? NPCs in those games can kick your can if you don't bring your A-Game. Wanna know why? 'Cause they will use things like potions, scrolls, and x/day items if they need to. Many such things have long durations.
For example: A 9th level CR 9 NPC has 10,050 gp worth of gear. So he gets him some masterwork weapons, and a potion of greater magic weapon for 750, or a CL 9th version for 1,350 gp; which is waaaaaay cheaper than the 18,300+ gp it would cost for a +3 weapon; and he can choose which weapon needs to be magic at the moment (melee, bow, etc). A potion of gravity bow or lead blade and a potion of enlarge person can go a long, long way.
Likewise, since HD increases faster that CR for NPCs (generally 2 HD / CR for NPC-classed advancement), ambushers can be pretty dangerous. If you have a pack of gnolls with 8 levels of warrior, they're CR 5, but they can easily support 10 ranks in Stealth and Perception. If they notice the party coming up, they can begin applying oils and potions, until they are ready to strike.
Also, a potion of blur makes you immune to sneak attacks. That one can really make your rogue cry. However, they introduced a nice feat-tax for your rogues in the APG, which allows them to sneak attack foes with concealment. Displacement still hoses you though.
Meanwhile, mobs and mobs of low-level foes can really spice up an encounter. At higher levels, the XP value of the enemies can be downright negligible, but they can still do things like toss tanglefoot bags and nets at PCs, which can annoy the crap out of them if they don't have Freedom of Movement active. Likewise, weenie NPCs that crowd up onto PCs make it a bit tricky to move, and can make blasting a pain.
Also, if your PCs don't have energy resistances, Ravingdork should know good and well that an alchemical bombing run can be a cruel, cruel thing. If you've got 20 kobolds with point-blank shot, and they all run up to your party's meatshield and bomb him with alchemist fire, that's 20d6+20 damage initially, 20d6 damage on the following round, and 20 points of splash damage. Since it's vs touch AC, their size, dexterity, and other features make hitting with them pretty easy. Also, a CR 6 encounter is about 24 1st level NPC-classed kobolds.
@Ashiel, I agree with you that NPCs make great encounters. Unfortunately, they are also the hardest to design.
I guess it's time to abandon random encounter tabes and crack some books. Your thoughts about expendable items are well taken though.
Most monsters can be pretty dangerous as well. You just have to be mean and hardcore about it. That includes the -1 / 10 ft penalty to Perception checks, scent tracking, being willing to use techniques such as grapple-move, terrain, and so forth. I've had players who were getting railed in a forest of small/medium monstrous spiders because they would keep getting stuck in their webs (DC 20 to spot before walking into them), getting covered in webs (ranged touch for entangle, wastes actions to escape), and repeatedly getting bitten was pushing the DC and duration of the poisons pretty high.
Really, you should get good and familiar with any monster that you plan on using - random or otherwise - and realize what that monster's strengths and weaknesses are. For example, Krenshar kinda suck for their CR, but they can make excellent debuffing minions, and at low-levels a few Krenshar can focus-fire their fear on enemies and then mob whomever remains; making them somewhat dangerous.
Ah Part 6 of Kingmaker.
Matthew Trent,
You have a lot to play with. You should be able to challenge them if they are level appropriate.
Remember fickle winds. It sounds like you are using other than core if you are allowing flying mounts and Inquisitors.
Make fickle winds a standard part of your defense. Update spell lists with key new spells. If you are not familiar with spell strategy, when you make your caster NPCs toss on a new thread and we can help you with spell strategy if you like.
I'm not even sure my players will survive Part 6 and there are 9 of them. I've made it really harsh.
If the stock monsters can't compete with customized NPC's then how are they not a greater threat?RD: I think NPC's are more difficult to deal with than monsters, depending on the build that is. Considering some of your builds I am surprised you feel that stock monsters can compete with a customized NPC.I never said that stock monster could compete with customized NPCs. I was trying to get across that, due to their reduced ability scores and gear, they are no more a threat to PCs than stock monsters (most of the time).NPCs are only weaksauce if GMs outfit them in foolish ways. If you try to spend all your NPC money on a +3 sword, you're going to be looking pretty poor when you hosed all their options for a mere +3 to hit and damage. Oh no, NPCs have better options than that. Potions, wands, scrolls, alchemical items. All that junk is wonderful for NPCs.
I agree with you. One trick I learned a long ago was to use oil to duplicate magic items.
Example:I need a high damage and high AC melee type, but by the rules my NPC can't afford high priced armor and weapons. I can buy the oils and have them applied before the PC's show up. Your now have the AC you need, and better offense. The second effect is that the PC's are not getting high priced magic items you don't want them to have yet.My NPC's are generally tougher than the stock monsters, and I don't break WBL for them either. It takes time to do it though. Luckily I just purchased herolab recently. It speeds things up a lot.
Animal companion: Roc. It mostly exists as a large maneuverability platform with a high AC.
Explain further.
If it's being used as a mount, I don't see mounted archery in there, I don't know if you have full ride checks.
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Animal companion: Roc. It mostly exists as a large maneuverability platform with a high AC.Explain further.
If it's being used as a mount, I don't see mounted archery in there, I don't know if you have full ride checks.
Her ride skill is if not maxed, at least able to hit a dc 20 when rolling a 1. And because of the way skills work, that is enough. Mounted archery is a trap feat. So long as the mount makes only a single move it's completely useless, and with fly 80 a single move is enough.
Her ride skill is if not maxed, at least able to hit a dc 20 when rolling a 1. And because of the way skills work, that is enough. Mounted archery is a trap feat. So long as the mount makes only a single move it's completely useless, and with fly 80 a single move is enough.Animal companion: Roc. It mostly exists as a large maneuverability platform with a high AC.Explain further.
If it's being used as a mount, I don't see mounted archery in there, I don't know if you have full ride checks.
Disintegrate the mount then.
It has a Fort save of +9 and 12d8+12 hp (avg 66). Touch AC 14. Poof.
EDIT: Level 5 spell, Int of 15 necessary, DC17.
Zzorp.
EDIT: Heck, I almost killed the _ranger_ with those d6 rolls.
At levels like 14, you have to be willing to kill every party member on a failed save in the first action of the round. They are willing to end your encounter, you should be willing to end theirs.
I started an encounter today dropping two cone of colds on the party from a pair of ice devils. If the wizard and cleric had not succeeded both (and one had been wearing a ring of evasion) they would have both died. They then stomped the encounter.
You just have to be mean and hardcore about it.
Yes. _Yes._ After level 12, the game becomes Caster Rocket-Launcher Tag. Save? Pass. Save? Pass. Save? Fail. kraKABOOM. Splatsplatsplatsplatsplatsplat.
It's what I hate about levels past 13. If you want to challenge your PCs, you have to kill them. It also just puts them out of commission for one fight-- the cleric resurrects them out of combat. It gives a very strong taste of pointlessness to the entire game, but this is not the time or the place to whine about my hate of high levels.
Quilted Cloth, Anti-Magic field/DR, DR/bludgeoning slashing epic adamantine and -, hardness, deflect arrow feat, weather - mist rain hail wind and lightningstorms (making flight undesirable), lots of cover/terrain/concealment - jungle underwater tunnels webs roots vines canopies, towershields, deflecting shields, blindness and slow effects, entanglement, incorporeals, spring attacking ninjas, alot of hitpoints, sunder, scarce ammunition, dead magic zones, unnatural creatures/fear effects spooking the animal companion, traps, puzzles, riddles, shot on the run, snipers, also magical spells
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@Ice Titan, I think you misunderstand. I'm not trying to murder my players. That would be trivial. I'm trying to craft encounters where meele people shine. Thats somewhat harder, especially as most of my experience is running at less than level 12.
I'm fairly confident my players will agree that I don't hold back.
I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.
Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?
Mix up your encounters.
Use groups instead of single opponents. Against any party, especially one with strong ranged capabilities, a single creature will usually be little more than a speed-bump.
Have the groups use terrain to set up ambushes and hit-and-run attacks where they escape around corners or other obstacles that break up lines of fire (burrowing or incorporeal creatures also work very well). Have spellcasters use spells like wind wall to protect against ranged attacks while dropping SoD/SoS spells on the party.
Have the enemies sneak up on the party and attack in melee before the archer has a chance to attack them at range. Disarm (or sunder) the archer's bow; use dirty trick to cause the blind condition or Blinding Critical.
They seem considerably BELOW expected level for Chapter 6, and there are some nice baddies ahead of them.
I'm fairly sure you have some baddies coming up that should challenge the entire group, archer included.
^__^
Make them fight in the rain. Wind speeds make ranged attacks dodgey, visability is reduced, Encounters become much closer.
Cast fog cloud, have the monster fight though a web[web spell provides cover and concealment].
Sent in zombies or skeletons DR vs piercing and immune to crits and unaffected by stinking cloud full cover and a save to resist for those pesky casters. Throw up a net wall [net hung from trees half the party passes drop the net].
Catapult fire bombing, how many alchemist fire fit in a catapult load? Mr. Fishy bets a 20' radius spread worth. Everyone in the area is flatfooted...feel the burn. Let's see them archer take out that catapult with it arc fire and no direct line of sight.
Roasted Roc anyone. Surface to air old school.
Mr. Fish wants a drum stick.
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They seem considerably BELOW expected level for Chapter 6, and there are some nice baddies ahead of them.
I'm fairly sure you have some baddies coming up that should challenge the entire group, archer included.
Yeah. We haven't kicked off part six yet. I want them to finish of some hexploration and have noticed the random tables are full of boring. Hence this thread.
I have a small problem in that the archer character in my game (yes you there) murders any critter / npc up to cr +3 in about one round and this seems to be reducing the amount of fun that other characters are having.
Any tips on how to build an encounters to make melee or blaster characters shine at average party level 14?
With dozens of spells and abilities at that level that make missiles all but redundant?
1) Close quarters (no real range)
2) Cover - you cannot shoot what you cannot see
3) High AC/DR/HP (make them survive the hail of missiles)
4) Large numbers of foes (by all means, shoot down all the attacking winged monkeys)
5) Surprise (take them from behind, use surprise rounds etc)
Spells that are useful:
Invisibility
Fog Cloud
Darkness
Provide cover that prevents ranged attacks.
Blur
Displacement
Mirror Image
Stoneskin
Shield
Make hits less effective, provide high miss chances, soak the damage as the foe close.
Protection from (various) Missiles
Wind Wall
Deal with the arrows, for example Wind Wall should make just about any arrows useless.
There are a lot of options that make missiles less than effective, and most of them are not very high level options either.
Yeah. We haven't kicked off part six yet. I want them to finish of some hexploration and have noticed the random tables are full of boring. Hence this thread.They seem considerably BELOW expected level for Chapter 6, and there are some nice baddies ahead of them.
I'm fairly sure you have some baddies coming up that should challenge the entire group, archer included.
Pick your "random encounters". Pillage .. er, "borrow" stat blocks from campaign threads. If you want to foreshadow things to come post Chapter 6, have certain critters fly overhead - see if the PCs take a potshot at something they shouldn't have. They could. Stumble across ancient ruins regarding Things Man Was Not Meant to Know. A wendigo (souped up as you see fit) should scare their pants off.
^__^
@Ice Titan, I think you misunderstand. I'm not trying to murder my players. That would be trivial. I'm trying to craft encounters where melee people shine. Thats somewhat harder, especially as most of my experience is running at less than level 12.
I'm fairly confident my players will agree that I don't hold back.
If you kill the ranger, they won't be able to kill your encounters. I'm not even kidding. This is really how the game system is built-- kill or be killed. It's either that or like every second encounter for the rest of the campaign has all of these wacky features that single out the ranger and make them feel nerfed. I personally think it's less of a stretch of the imagination to just kill them every once in a while than it is to have all of these monsters with DR/slashing, fickle winds, deflect arrows etc. start showing up.
I guess if you're looking for more ways to make the ranger a non-factor, forceful hand + wind wall in front of the forceful hand in a hallway. They can't fire through the wind wall and have to push past the forceful hand to be able to get through the wind wall.
I noticed that this is Kingmaker. Archers and ranged characters shining in Kingmaker is the Kingmaker Problem. When 90% of your encounters start at 40+ feet, yeah, the archer who can just turn to the left and full attack will shine a lot more than the melee who have to dismount, move, move and attack over two rounds. You can try to solve this by just having monsters stealth up to the party like ninjas, but it seems like the party decided to solve that problem for you by being ridiculous at counter-ambushing. There's really not much you can do about that, then, I guess. :/
Well, he did it. Wendigo who was in a very thick fog, such that you had to be within 15' to even see and had 20% concealment further than 5' away.
Melee got to have fun, I got to shoot it a little but no full-rounds from me, and it actually lived a whole four rounds or so. The witch, who only moves 40' (flying carpet), didn't actually get to see it to ID it until it was dead.** spoiler omitted **
^__^
The CR system is designed for Elite Array & relatively inexperienced / not so optimized players. My advice would be to give every opponent Advanced Template at least once & add mooks to the fights. If adding mooks is impossible for the story reasons, double the BBEGs HP.
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I'm currently also running Kingmaker,and we have an archer (Only Lvl 11,as he is an NPC Cohort...and I designed him,so it's 'my fault').
He has the Thundering Bow, as well as other wacky archer goodies.Not as brutal as her character, but it's a similar situation.
What did I do? Well, Pixies.
Yes,I said Pixies... There are some unfriendly ones out there,and they are invisible. Sundered bowstrings (While shooting...Ouch,I've experienced THAT before in RL,not fun...), stealing arrows(Mage Hand also works great for this) out of the quiver, I'm sure that there is a Druid spell to make wood burst into flame somewhere (I'm not near my books, but it's probably in there somewhere).
It was a pretty funny (And fun,for all involved,including the PC who employs said Archer) fight when those Pixies attacked...
To the DM: I feel your pain.
My party has that archer, a Cavalier who does a jillion points of damage on a Spirited Charge, an Inquisitor, a Stone Giant Cohort aquired through a bizarre series of roleplaying, the Paizo Story cards and a proper promise of loot. the party isn't happy with the 1,000GP/day in gems that his PC employer promised, but he's worth it...) and a Witch who Sleeps big bruisers like crazy. 'Oh no, a Lvl 12 Barbarian...Sleep, DC20,please,etc... Still, I have modified the modules (Our party is 5 players,4 Cohorts and often some troops...
Good old Hero Labs (PLUG) has made souping up the baddies to be in line with the PC army a real treat.
Uriel
PS:On a humorous note..>Do your PCs refer to treasure in Build-Point value?Mine do... 'Whoa, that cloak is badass...flying... (Others shake their heads)..I mean, That's like 7 BPs...
Face it, the character's built perfectly for her surroundings.
(Yay, Melissa, and yay, her team for amplifying each others' abilities.)
So change the surroundings, as many mentioned earlier. Tight corridors (even in forest), weather, etc.
Also:
If outside, use trees for full cover. Snipe. Shot on the Run. Project Image. Missile Deflect feat. Tower Shields to move up with full cover.
(These things won't help against the PARTY much, but against her, yes.)
Also, is she in back?
Wall spells, even simple Wind Walls (plural because she's mobile). Or Wall of Stone/Web spell between trees where she's flying or give full tree cover if she's above treeline. (Objective: Slow her down while frontliners get to engage.)
Weather's nice? Control Winds,et al.
Fight above water. If she or her mount falls, she's out of combat for some time.
Is she closer?
Grapple with true monster (not just some medium NPC).
(Quickened/Maximized) Ray of Enfeeblement (less than 18 Str for her bow now.)
Her Will Save is her weakness so some Persistent spells added in, like a Persistent Confusion on the party and ITS MOUNTS. ("Your mounts start attacking each other." or, ooh, if she starts attacking the party with that +6 vs. humans...)
Also:
High speed flyers who can engage/grapple in first round. Air Elementals, dragons (invisible), etc.
Targeting her mount should be done, but sparingly as it'll get old fast.
Each of these options is likely to be resolved quickly (by the others if anything0, but since we're shooting for >1round and the others being pivotal, they should work.
The CR system is designed for Elite Array & relatively inexperienced / not so optimized players. My advice would be to give every opponent Advanced Template at least once & add mooks to the fights. If adding mooks is impossible for the story reasons, double the BBEGs HP.Most of the monsters we fight have the advanced template applied twice at no additional CR (as in, CR 15 monster, template x2, get XP for defeating CR 15 monster). Sometimes they also get a surreptitious bump to natural armor as well. That wasn't enough.
Just keep adding mooks & templates. I've never run out of numbers as a GM :D. Somewhere there is a point where PCs feel challenced. I also don't let the PCs level up before schedule despite making things much more difficult, since it just enchances the problem.