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Seem to remember Hellknights harrassing the native peoples of Varisia, being part of the oppression of the native peoples of Sargava, putting down riots in ____________ with excessive and lethal force, persecuting heretics(who may very well be Good depending on the heresy) and other such things. IIRC.
Not wanting to suggest that hte Hellknights are all moustache-twirling villains, but let's not start whitewashing them as a whole either.
Ok, but what happens when its time to string up the slaves for escape or insurrection, both of which I'm pretty sure are illegal in any slave owning society?
The only occasions, ever as far as I'm aware, in which it was actually, truly (in other words, not merely the result of people taking the law into their own hands, or a Potentate exceeding the boundaries of the law) to hang someone without trial, were aboard naval ships dealing with mutineers, deserters and pirates during time of war. In those cases, it was determined that the risk associated with allowing living, condemned prisoners access and proximity to the crew was greater than the threat to justice.
I'd be interested to know if there were other occasions.
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I am claiming that if an action taken in accordance with the law is evil then a Paladin is obliged to oppose that law, and the authority which is enforcing it.
What I am not saying---- paladins must fight all evil people enforcing the Law. No I am not saying that.I am saying that if Law X is evil, then its enforcement is evil and that if a paladin enforces it, or allows it to be enforced on his watch, he is in trouble.
Disagree strongly. If you took a moment to read the CoC that you quoted you would know that that is not true. Respecting lawful authority does not have an unless it's evil clause. Paladins do not get to pick and choose which authorities to respect.
Not even if your god doesn't approve of the law.
I myself am planning on running a Paladin of the Godclaw/Hellknight for a module my GM is gonna do, should be a hoot. :)I'm playing one of these right now and its awwwweeesome. Here's my Godclaw Code of Conduct, which is based around the codes of the various aspects in the Faiths of... books. He also has the Oath against Savagery and is from Lastwall, so some of these may not apply to others.
Thanks for posting up your CoC, I'll be sure to stea...er "borrow" some of them when building my own. ;) I've been playing around more with the ideals that each diety represents and how they'd relate to a paladin's code.
This thread has certainly brought up a bunch of stuff me and my GM have been discussing as far as how a paladin would view himself as a Hellknight, those he served directly with, his order, and all the orders as a whole. Obviously paladins won't be part of every order, the Gate (primarily arcane diabolists) quickly springs to mind, but others would fit rather well, Order of the Scourge who hunt known criminals and lawbreakers for example. Having read Pathfinders #27 and #28 about a dozen times now there are a few things which have been stated that I take issue with.
1) Hellknights venerate Asmodeus
This is false. While some my personally turn to him, as a whole, faith is a personal and private issue among the Hellknights. As long as you preform your duties no one cares who your patron deity is, or if you even have one. The exception to this is the God Claw who include Asmodeus as part of their pantheon, seeing him as a tactitian and strategist.
2) Hellknights run around with summoned devils
Again false. Outside of the Order of the Gate, who as stated before are devil summoning D-bags, devils are rarely summoned and then primarily for training on military tactics and to kill to join the knighthood.
3) Hellknights can summon up hellhounds
Well yes, if they choose to. One you have to take the discipline, Tracker, to do so and then it's one of six options you have, the others being animals. Since the ability states it works as Summon Monster, except for duration, I see no reason that you couldn't choose a celestial version over a fiendish one, up to the individual knight.
4) Hellknights are running around with Unholy weapons
Again, yes they can if they choose to. However they also have the options of Axiomatic and Flaming Burst neither of which will be taboo for a paladin to use.
As for the Infernal Armor class ability, this is one where we get to what is to me the core of playing a Pal/HlK. In the original Hellknight PrC from #27 the levels where broken up by three paths, the Measure, the Chain, and the Hellion, and Infernal Armor came right there in the middle of Hellions path. Now as you progressed down theese paths it becomes harder to do so and stay true to higher ideals, so that by the time you reach the Path of the Hellion you've kinda given up on humanity doing what's "right" without having it's arm twisted, and as such have left behind your Paladin's code as well. The rules try to mirror the effect on a "beat cop" who may start out with high ideals but eventually gets mired in the muck of daily dealing with humanitys dregs.
@JJ and or Wes
While not specifically stated anywhere, we assumed the pantheon of the God Claw to be LN and I just wanted to get a official word on that, for issues such as a clerics Aura and can they produce paladins.
I think it's certainly possible for a paladin to be a Hellknight - in the short term. In the long term I'd say it's impossible. Argument aside about Hellknights being infernal just because they venerate Hell, the issue is they revolve around a strict adherence to upholding the law.
Regardless of whether they're in Cheliax or Andoran, they believe in upholding the law. Almost fanatically so. No compromise, no mercy, just follow the letter of the law. That's not believing in Justice, that's believing in Law. They're pretty much a Golarion version of the Mercykillers from Planescape- LN with a lot of Evil tendencies.
So, yeah, if a Paladin had to choose Lawful every single time, he/she would fall eventually.
I mean, look at it this way. Hellknights don't follow a justice system, they follow a legal system. They're in a country where the penalty is death for stealing? And they catch a ten year old street urchin stealing a single apple from a cart? A Hellknight would execute the child right then and there. A paladin (I hope) would pause and say "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute."
A Hellknight would execute the child right then and there.
Please tell me in what country is theft punishable by death.
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Seem to remember Hellknights harrassing the native peoples of Varisia, being part of the oppression of the native peoples of Sargava, putting down riots in ____________ with excessive and lethal force, persecuting heretics(who may very well be Good depending on the heresy) and other such things. IIRC.
Not wanting to suggest that hte Hellknights are all moustache-twirling villains, but let's not start whitewashing them as a whole either.
Mikaze has made a very good point. Hell knight troops are often used as the steel boot and Iron fist in a monarchs oppression.
From my understanding they are utterly without mercy. If a Local Baron said "there are seditionists in that village, burn it down, kill every living person and every live stalk, poison the wells, sow the fields with salt! they need to me made an example of so no others rise against my rule....I think a hell knight would do it. I think a hell knight would either lead his own forces, or the Barrons forces and see that his will was done.
Lets take another "example". Lets put a hell knight and a Paladin in an identical situation. I think their reactions would be very different. Lets say they are in a market place ( not the same one in the same place, just a generic market place in a city). Lets say a street urchin, a boy of 8 or so brushes buy them and manages to lift their coin purse ( the Paladin and Hell knight respectively), and lets say both the paladin and hell Knight notice the theft, and are able to chase down and capture the street urchin.
I think they would react very differently. I think the paladin might be concerned if the child was starving, or in a street gang, or something like that. He may give the child a silver or a few coppers, or he might get his adventuring buddies together and they might try to deal with a " Gadriam Lang" type character.
The hell knight on the other hand, i think would at a minimum give the child a "thrashing" for stealing from him. Depending on what the local law is, (lets say if your hand is cut off for theft) I think there is a likely chance the Hell knight would cut the child's hand off right there and then. He may at a minimum drag the child (after his beating) to the local watch post and deposit him there.
From my understanding Hell knights are without mercy, not interested in justice, only what is legal and lawful.
While a paladin could possibly join a hell knight order, he would i think have a very difficult time.
Well anyways this is something that can be argued back and forth.
Ask your GM.
If you and he/she/it can rationalize it in YOUR Golarion or whatever world you play in, then go for it.
@JJ and or Wes
While not specifically stated anywhere, we assumed the pantheon of the God Claw to be LN and I just wanted to get a official word on that, for issues such as a clerics Aura and can they produce paladins.
Yes, it's meant to be Lawful Neutral. As it was constructed before we had oracles - our current preferred method of dealing with pantheonic worship - I'd probably mix quite a few of them into the order's mix, with probably a few cleric purists who specifically favor a single deity while giving lip service to the others.
3) Hellknights can summon up hellhoundsWell yes, if they choose to. One you have to take the discipline,...
That was part of my original design for this prestige class, that it does permit access to evil abilities. Hell is about corruption, and any one who thinks they can dabble with its power without fear of being tainted is naive at best. That's part of why the Hellknights have such strict sensibilities regarding discipline, in part to assure that their initiates don't become pawns of an otherworldy agenda. The longer you're exposed to Hell's influence, though, and the more powerful you become, the more temptations there are, and one manifestation of this is access to powers that are legitimately evil.
But those are merely evil options, they do not mean all Hellknights are evil. It's the same sort of option every spellcaster is faced with, they CAN select and potentially cast spells with the evil spell descriptor, but it's choosing to do so, not merely being faced with the option, that defines them as evil.
So I wanted to make sure every Hellknight playing this class had temptations like this to face. But, whether players take the evil route or not, that's a decision for them and for their GMs to decide the ramifications of.
Personally, one of my favorite things about the Hellknights are the gray areas. This is a group that exists between good and evil, that embodies the struggles of order versus morality, civilization vs corruption, and the question of a "common good." They're not about easy answers or easy decisions, each is a potential hero or tyrant - both locked in sinister black armor. They kill monsters and bring down crime bossess, yet punish even the most trivial infraction and sow fear where they pass. With all of this in mind, depending on some peoples' personal philosophies overlaid upon the potentially interpretive elements of the Pathfinder RPG's alignment system, some might view certain aspects of the Hellknights as either good or evil - and no one side is ever going to change the other once it becomes a philosophical discussion like that. (I stated Paizo's interpretation on the first page of this thread and I'm not interested in changing minds, to each his own.)
But the Hellknights are about something more interesting that good guys and bad guys. They're about the hard decisions that a culture of beings without natural armor and the ability to breathe fire feel like they need to make to survive in a world populated by destructive monsters and unfathomable magic. They're about doing what needs to be done, as defined by the codes of their order and the judgment of an individual. They're about having the choice to be evil or to be good while locked within the strictures of a forceful, intimidating institution that doesn't care about you're feelings or qualms one way or the other.
That's really it for me, that's the thing I like maybe most about the Hellknights, that it sets up this hard question for every character: In a military order, that doesn't care about doing good or evil, that only wants you to obey and further their legitimate definition of order, and that punishes disobedience, when your PC is called to make hard decisions, will she err on the side of mercy, obedience, or cruelty?
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ALSO: ninja'd by the managing editor. Again. Well, played, Mr. Schneider. Well played.
The Hellknights are perceived to interact with Hell. The difference between orders will blur and will largely be meaningless. Guilt and contamination by association. Every Hellknight will be initially suspected of, well, acting like someone who admires HELL, and will have to prove otherwise.
And there IS an order that specifically venerates Asmodeus. Hooray for taint by association.
Nothing has ever worked like that in the history of forever. Even if others look at someone as being evil or good, it's irrelevant because the important thing is the divine decree.
Paladins join non-evil groups all the time. Churches, noble knightly orders, adventuring bands...as a matter of fact, they make a point to do it because of class restrictions, and always have!
Which is kind of the fact you've been ignoring this whole time. You're so caught up on a name, that you seriously aren't seeing the forest for all those lousy trees. The hellknights aren't an evil order. They share a name with evil stuff, sure. Let's compare something else. Does everyone that plays for Duke University go to hell?
Your patronage is diabolic,
Untrue, as has been pointed out.
some of the powers you get are LE,
From certain orders that paladins wouldn't be part of. ALSO, there are some wizard spells that are evil. THEREFORE: Paladins clearly should not be hanging out with wizards. Especially those in colleges! You know, where all that evil magic stuff is taken, and stored, and sealed away so people don't read them (unless they need to). 'Cause it's totally part of the college and maybe even referenced sometimes! Especially if they're a multiclass wizard! No, better to just muddle through on your own, and learn your abilities the hard, dangerous, chaotic way.
and some orders openly consort with devils.
See above.
I've made multiple examples of the fact the paladin has to do nothing but be affiliated with the name and order to be contaminated, and/or to make use of his Class Abilities.
This isn't true, however. Being Affiliated with something that might be Affiliated with something evil, does not Affiliate you with evil. It could, by virtue of the middle-man becoming corrupted, but it doesn't necessarily follow. Further, you've made multiple poor and incorrect examples. There are orders that the Paladin can't reasonably join. That's agreed. But to universally say "no paladins can join any order" is incorrect. A paladin can freely associate with a cavalier. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to associate with a cavalier in ORDER of the cockatrice, but with things like the ORDER of the dragon, star, sword, or shield, they'd likely have an easy time of it. It just depends on the ORDER. Same class, though.
1) he doesn't have to venerate Hell. But his being a Hellknight is going to present that image of Hell's power whether he cares or not. that's the power of a name.
You have a point. That's the entire reason for being a Hellknight. Using a name that (to most) is little more than "that terrible thing I don't want" to inspire fear, and thus, obedience. Further, fear isn't an evil thing, if used to head toward good ends. That's the reason the [evil] tag isn't in fear spells.
2) There are Hellknights that actively serve Evil, and some specifically venerate Asmodeus, and there are DEFINITELY evil Hellknights. Association rules BAR the paladin from associating or being associated with them. Like, by being a fellow Hellknight.
Simple: DON'T SERVE THOSE ORDERS. Alternatively: no, you're wrong, they can associate, however they must be careful in how they associate. Alternatively: no, you're wrong, because they use different meanings of "temporary" than you.
3) There are specific class abilities of the Hellknight PrC that are Evil, and there are NONE that are good. There is a SPECIFIC instance where it is plain that LG outsiders do NOT respect the Hellknight class. It is NOT A LAWFUL NEUTRAL CLASS, despite what anyone can argue. By taking levels in it, you are confirming the validity of those powers, even if you never, ever use them. Congrats! Doing Hell's Work again. Go on, tempt some more dupes.
There are also many class abilities that are restricted by Order. Hint: avoid those.
I can appreciate grey issues. The problem is they are shoehorning a very black and white class, the paladin, into a class that is NOT grey...it is most definitely tainted with Evil. It's a handwave to generate greyness. It does not work.
This isn't true. Anymore than saying the paladin class is tainted with evil, because it totally is. You can choose to add those abilities (or not) to your class list. You can choose to be an "anti-paladin" (or not) as a Paladin Class Feature. It rewrites the abilities that you get (thus, you choose which abilities you get to determine whether you're good or evil), but it is still a Paladin archetype. FURTHER. A sorcerer who progresses as sorcerer has lots of opportunity to select evil spells. If, later, they become a Paladin, despite the fact that many sorcerers associate with evil things, are evil things, have schools of evil things, and represent evil things, using evil powers (spells) that does not disqualify said character from following down the path of Paladin. Tiefling paladin? Totally possible. Is the tiefling "tainted" with the blood of hell? Yes. Does that "taint" prevent them from being a paladin by association (kind of hard to disassociate yourself FROM YOURSELF)? No.
(sort of opposite) Example in-game world of choosing your own alignment despite your heritage: There's an aasimar, who's chaotic evil in one of the APs, I believe, and who murders others, 'cause, you know, she's totally into evil and stuff.
Hey, look: an inherently aligned bloodline that's ignored by an act of will.
The person determines whether or not they're paladins. What about an abyssal-bloodline sorcerer? They didn't have a choice in how they were born. They do, however have a choice in their alignment. They could be lawful good, but they're just brimming with all this chaotic evil power that grows naturally from them. By having access to evil power, does that make them evil, if they never use the evil part of their power? Obviously, you think that it would, due to their inherent association and elements tied into their class. I disagree.
I wouldn't be having this discussion if that taint wasn't there. A class of Lawknights with clear LN powers could very easily accept paladins and not have conflicts. HEllknights are NOT a LN class.
True, they aren't "LN". The class is LAWFUL. That's it. ANY LAWFUL. You're hung up on a name, but just stop. You're wrong. It's clear that they are lawful. ANY lawful. That's the class. Just as wizards come from different colleges, sorcerers come from different bloodlines, Hellknights come from different orders. They have the ability to choose elements which allow them to perform evil acts. Not all of them do.
I mean, seriously, the first thing I'd do when he does something Hellknightish and goes for an Atonement to get back his paladinhood is "Okay, prove thy devotion by turning aside from the path that has led you to this point." I.e. give up your Hellknight levels and get the heaven out of Dodge. Atonement doesn't have to be FREE. And using it as a 'no consequences for my decisions' card should be rightfully smited. Smote?
Hi. Nice, personal, interpretation there. Completely personal. Not canon. You'd do it. Doesn't mean that all lawful good deities do it. You mentioned the Order of the Godclaw worships Asmodeus. It also worships Torag. And Iomedae (who is, by the way, a paladin, and who supports paladins). And two lawful neutral deities. Over all, they're pretty heavily skewed toward good instead of evil (2:1). BUT most of all that pesky good v. evil stuff is ignored in said order, as, instead, what they really focus on is the LAW aspect of all of them.
Also, on casting spells with the evil descriptor: it doesn't say how evil such an act is. And casting spells with the good descriptor is an inherently good act. Perhaps it's based on spell-level? In which case casting a large number of protect goods should balance one summon (evil). And if you're going to have a group witness trial-by-combat against a devil, it makes a lot of sense that you'd cast those good spells around the witnesses before that evil one.
Mechanically, none of them should have paladins by pure association rules with the name, PrC, and evil hellknights.
I'd like to take this moment to point out yet another way in which Golarion sidesteps CORE RAW: clerics. Clerics, CORE RAW are able to choose anything they wish to worship and thereby gain power. Cleric, in Golarion, cannot. CORE RAW does not always equal Golarion Canon. The rules differ there a bit. Much like how they changed for Forgotten Realms (where druids also needed a deity to function), or Greyhawk, or Eberron (where your alignment didn't matter at all), or Darksun, or ALL OF THEM. There hasn't been an official campaign setting, that I know of, that didn't vary from the CORE RAW rules of every game it's ever been in, at least in minor ways. So, no, this isn't a conflict. It's a Campaign Setting.
That they do is an authorial handwave. 'Paladins of Asmodeus', whether they think they are or aren't. The Devil King chortles on his ruby throne.
Hi. Nice personal interpretation. Also, Asmodeus probably does chortle. Often. He's also often annoyed. By Hellknights. Then he chortles as he comforts himself with the thought that he has the key to his favorite plaything's destruction. Because he does. Because he totally helped pen the contract of creation and also has the key made of darkness that leads to Rovagug's prison.
Seem to remember Hellknights harrassing the native peoples of Varisia, being part of the oppression of the native peoples of Sargava, putting down riots in ____________ with excessive and lethal force, persecuting heretics(who may very well be Good depending on the heresy) and other such things. IIRC.
Not wanting to suggest that hte Hellknights are all moustache-twirling villains, but let's not start whitewashing them as a whole either.
This is actually correct. And, incidentally (as usual) I mostly agree with you heartily: hellknights can easily be villains, and presuming them to be an easy road for paladins (or any good character) to take is the wrong track. But there are several things there:
1) In Sargava, they are part of the oppression by putting down the riots and other violent crimes against "legitimate authority" with violence... a legitimate authority that specifically rebukes and refutes Cheliax, and does so in part because Cheliax is run by devils. But, you know, the Hellknights are cool. And also, this is mostly in Kalabuto, 'cause if the hellknights showed their armored face in a place like Freeport, they'd be gutted, poisoned, assassinated, and magicked out before they knew what hit them.
2) Each of those were different orders entirely. You can see my far, far too long thing to Aelryinth, or just take it as this: cavaliers are broken into orders too. Paladins can easily get along with some. Not so much others.
2) Hellknights are, generally, without mercy. This does not mean they're stupid. Most lichtors, in fact, need to be quite wise and careful about who/where/what/how they send their paladins on missions. And make no mistake: lichtors will guard their paladins as precious, precious resources, what with the sources of magical healing and all, which is kind of rare for the more battle-focused hell knights. Except of course, for that one order who's run by the atheist. And who hates all theists. Or that other order who's packed to the gills with clerics who worship five gods of law (but with only one patron each) at the same time. But other than those two orders, paladins are a rare, precious resource that lichtors (rulers of individual orders) will guard and husband as well and carefully as possible, meaning they won't put them in compromising situations, if they can help it.
3) Sargava is filled with people who are equal parts stupid and stupid. Also, stupid. And they got some violent on their stupid. Ugh. I love/hate that place. It's far better than Cheliax! :D
In short (TOO LATE!) Hellknights are dangerous, difficult, and fraught with peril. They are deadly, remorseless, and obedient. They destroy all that is aberrant without regret. Paladins can walk this road, but it's a hard, harsh mistress, and it's probable that they will fall at some point. Generally this means seeking out and performing some form of non-chaotic atonement. Some, however, will stay fallen. Others will become corrupt. Sad thing is: the same thing happened to Paladins of Aroden. Or Iomedae. Or Erastil (few of those as there are). And others. Paladins make hard decisions, and sometimes the wrong ones. Hellknight paladins just make those decisions more frequently.
EDIT:
totally awful strawman with terrible examples:So slaves have rights? Golarion has a very enlightened slavery, what if the own likes string up slaves? What if he likes raping his slaves.... wha if he likes raping them whilethey are hanging publicly?They are Chattle right? Isn't he within his legal rights in Chellax to torture or kill them, certianly if they disobeyed or escaped? What if while raping his child slave an adult slave attacked him? So he is impailing this upstart, master attacking, fiend of a slave. Is the paladin obliged to defend him while he is doing it.
Paladin " No, No Mr. Chaotic Good Hero, I am afraid I am going to have to protect this vile guy here from you. I mean he has the right to rape his 8 year old slaves if he want to and this guy hit him for doing it. So if he wants to kills him he can.
Yeah that sounds totally like a paladin.
Wow, that sounds awful. And no, unless he's within his rights to a) expose himself in public, b) perform lewd acts in public, and c) to perform disgusting acts in public this would not be an issue. Instead, the paladin, if they became aware of such behavior, would work within the law to find ways to bring that person down. Purchasing said slaves, for one, finding ways in which the villain has violated the law for two. Most people that are that depraved have other failings. Al Capone was taken in on tax evasion, for example. It's a weak law he broke, but he was prosecuted harshly for it because of his other non-crime crimes. Same deal.
ALSO, once a slave, through any form, reaches the River Kingdoms, the paladin's hands are tied anyway. Any former slave is instantly an irrevocably abolished by simply being in the borders of the River Kingdoms (the main reason Halflings dump their people there, I imagine) and this is a rule that is legitimately accepted by all authorities (such as they are) there.
The question seems to come down to "how much chocolate do you have to bribe your dm with?".
Better bribe is beer.
Depends on the GM. :)
While a paladin could possibly join a hell knight order, he would i think have a very difficult time.
This is also absolutely true, and might be the heart of the matter.
No one is saying being a Hellknight paladin would be easy. There are some orders of Hellknights it might be near impossible in (the Order of the Gate is the first that leaps to mind), but there are also others that paladins would have a much easier time in (like the Order of the Torrent, which is all about getting back victims of kidnappings).
It's not easy to be a paladin. It would be even harder if you also wanted to be a Hellknight. But, a player who wants to indulge that character concept can.
At the end of the day, as a GM and designer, I always much prefer telling plays they can try something than they can't.
So I wanted to make sure every Hellknight playing this class had temptations like this to face. But, whether players take the evil route or not, that's a decision for them and for their GMs to decide the ramifications of.
Personally, one of my favorite things about the Hellknights are the gray areas. This is a group that exists between good and evil, that embodies the struggles of order versus morality, civilization vs corruption, and the question of a "common good." They're not about easy answers or easy decisions, each is a potential hero or tyrant...
But the Hellknights are about something more interesting that good guys and bad guys. They're about the hard decisions that a culture of beings without natural armor and the ability to breathe fire feel like they need to make to survive in a world populated by destructive monsters and unfathomable magic. They're about doing what needs to be done, as defined by the codes of their order and the judgment of an individual. They're about having the choice to be evil or to be good while locked within the strictures of a forceful, intimidating institution that doesn't care about you're feelings or qualms one way or the other.
That's really it for me, that's the thing I like maybe most about the Hellknights, that it sets up this hard question for every character: In a military order, that doesn't care about doing good or evil, that only wants you to obey and further their legitimate definition of order, and that punishes disobedience, when your PC is called to make hard decisions, will she err on the side of mercy, obedience, or cruelty?
You have inspired me, sir. I hope I have the opportunity to bring my Paladin into a new Cheliax campaign.
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@JJ and or Wes
While not specifically stated anywhere, we assumed the pantheon of the God Claw to be LN and I just wanted to get a official word on that, for issues such as a clerics Aura and can they produce paladins.
Yes, it's meant to be Lawful Neutral. As it was constructed before we had oracles - our current preferred method of dealing with pantheonic worship - I'd probably mix quite a few of them into the order's mix, with probably a few cleric purists who specifically favor a single deity while giving lip service to the others.
3) Hellknights can summon up hellhoundsWell yes, if they choose to. One you have to take the discipline,...
That was part of my original design for this prestige class, that it does permit access to evil abilities. Hell is about corruption, and any one who thinks they can dabble with its power without fear of being tainted is naive at best. That's part of why the Hellknights have such strict sensibilities regarding discipline, in part to assure that their initiates don't become pawns of an otherworldy agenda. The longer you're exposed to Hell's influence, though, and the more powerful you become, the more temptations there are, and one manifestation of this is access to powers that are legitimately evil.
But those are merely evil options, they do not mean all Hellknights are evil. It's the same sort of option every spellcaster is faced with, they CAN select and potentially cast spells with the evil spell descriptor, but it's choosing to do so, not merely being faced with the option, that defines them as evil.
So I wanted to make sure every Hellknight playing this class had temptations like this to face. But, whether players take the evil route or not, that's a decision for them and for their GMs to decide the ramifications of.
Personally, one of my favorite things about the Hellknights are the gray areas. This is a group that exists between good and evil, that embodies the struggles of order...
Mr. Schneider thank you for taking the time to come on these boards and sharing with us your thoughts.
While I might hop up and down stamp my feet, and insist you cant pars the Law out of Lawful Evil, and that if you deal with Hell, use their tools their methods, and use them as a model, you are going to come away tainted. In game terms your character will eventually slip towards an evil alignment bit by bit. I think that the Hell knight is the perfect example of a LE champion. It may not have been presented that way intended that way, nor may the source materiel be written that way, I think they fit hand in glove with Chiliax and the LE mechanicions of Hell and by extension the Cheliaxian Empire. I think that the House of Thrune probably believes that they are in control and merely use devils as a tool of order, but I think Asmodeus would be quite happy to let them live with their illusion of control, while he binds them tighter to Hell. Asmodeus may do the same thing with the Hell knights. Asmodeus may be pleased they are striding forth in the name of law, the whole while it is law without mercy or justice, and in some long term plan, Asmodeus might be using the Hell knights as an ultimate perversion of the law, slowly subtly and over time. There is alot in a name. All of that is merely my opinion.
Again thank you for your thoughtfull answer. With your description of the hell knights as in a grey area in a way it reminds me of the books “chronicls of the black company”.
I appreciate your well thought out answers. I also remember James Jacobs took the time to write out a very interesting answer concerning Sarenrae Qadira and Slavery.
I realize this game is written for a broad audience, and I like allot of the materiel that has been produced. Admitidly I would prefer things to have a little ambiguity to them…perhaps the hell knights is a good example… then it gives us players and GMs a bone to chew on gnaw and yes squabble over.
Thanks.
A Hellknight would execute the child right then and there.Please tell me in what country is theft punishable by death.
Capital punishment for theft used to be pretty common. The UK abolished the death penalty for shoplifting items worth less than 5 shillings back in the 1830s, presumably more grand theft was still punishable by death a while after that. I expect you'd see it in parts of Golarion too, though maiming (branding, etc) would probably be more common.
The only occasions, ever as far as I'm aware, in which it was actually, truly (in other words, not merely the result of people taking the law into their own hands, or a Potentate exceeding the boundaries of the law) to hang someone without trial, were aboard naval ships dealing with mutineers, deserters and pirates during time of war. In those cases, it was determined that the risk associated with allowing living, condemned prisoners access and proximity to the crew was greater than the threat to justice.
I'd be interested to know if there were other occasions.
Ok, so to quote an old Texas adage, give them a trial, THEN hang them.
NOW what does the paladin do?
Ok, so to quote an old Texas adage, give them a trial, THEN hang them.
NOW what does the paladin do?
Are they actually innocent? Or are they guilty of what they are accused?
The Paladin would protect the innocent and offer merciful justice to the guilty within the confines of the law. He might certainly work to change the law or offer mitigating circumstance to lessen the punishment. But, if you live in a state that has the law "Commit Crime X, and you will be executed," and you commit "Crime X," well, the Paladin can't and shouldn't help you escape responsibility for your actions.
I'm not saying it can't happen, but what I'm saying is that the DM can make you choose between them any time he wants to. Even presenting the (well thought out and thought provoking) question of how far does one value civilization in the face of something trying to annihilate it, is likely to result in a falling palladin or an ex hell knight.
In Irish legend, a geis is a prohibition on behavior. Violating it causes you to loose your power (this is the source for a druids prohibition on metal armor) Keeping one geis is hard, but doable. Keeping two may be impossible. In some stories Cu Cuchulainn, the greatest warrior in Celtic myth, could loose his formidable strength if he ate the flesh of a horse or refused someone's hospitality. An enemy discovered this, posed as a traveler along side the road, and offered him to share his fire and his meal... which just happened to be horse.
The worse and more medieval a world is (golarion seems pretty realistic/bad, thats my favorite thing about it) the more law and good are going to conflict. Choosing between the two is hard, but Paladins have an out in that they are not merely lawful good warriors. They are warriors for good that happen to be lawful.
I think a paladin/hellknight facing an escaped halfling slave would be obligated to help the slave escape to the river lands, and then turn himself in.
Are they actually innocent? Or are they guilty of what they are accused?
-Both. Lets take the less morally gray area of an escaped slave who's made repeated attempts.(i have no problems with knifing a slave owner on the way out but i'm not LG) The halfling is innocent in that they did nothing wrong. They are guilty by virtue of the fact that its illegal to escape when you're a slave.
The Paladin would protect the innocent and offer merciful justice to the guilty within the confines of the law. He might certainly work to change the law or offer mitigating circumstance to lessen the punishment. But, if you live in a state that has the law "Commit Crime X, and you will be executed," and you commit "Crime X," well, the Paladin can't and shouldn't help you escape responsibility for your actions.
The halfling is, oddly enough, guilty of the crime, and a total innocent. He is guilty of stealing his own body from its lawful owner.
If that crime is ludicrous?
What if the crime is failing to give homage to an evil deity?
"You failed to properly Worship Asmodeous, nor did yousuplicate yourself before his high preist, the penalty for that is Death!"
So the guy did it.... The Paladin just lets him get executed for that?
So, your hypothetical Paladin is just strolling through this town where you are required to supplicate yourself before the High Priest of Asmodeus and offer worship to Asmodeus, on penalty of death? And he's... just strolling by and witnesses this scene? He's lived here his whole life and this is the first issue that's really come up. Or he's just arrived and immediately must declare war with the whole city/state/nation.
The problem with these arguments is that you've simply created situations where horrible things are happening, grabbed a Paladin from the Ether-Vacuum, and dropped him into the situation cold.
That was part of my original design for this prestige class, that it does permit access to evil abilities. Hell is about corruption, and any one who thinks they can dabble with its power without fear of being tainted is naive at best. That's part of why the Hellknights have such strict sensibilities regarding discipline, in part to assure that their initiates don't become pawns of an otherworldy agenda. The longer you're exposed to Hell's influence, though, and the more powerful you become, the more temptations there are, and one manifestation of this is access to powers that are legitimately evil.
This is why I actually prefer how the PrC was presented in the AP originally, it was spelled out the the longer you were in service to the Hellknights, ie the more levels you had in the PrC, the more cold, detached, and cruel you became. Mechanically it works better as a 10 lvl progression as written in the world guide, but some fluff was lost in the translation. :)
While I might hop up and down stamp my feet, and insist you cant pars the Law out of Lawful Evil, and that if you deal with Hell, use their tools their methods, and use them as a model, you are going to come away tainted. In game terms your character will eventually slip towards an evil alignment bit by bit. I think that the Hell knight is the perfect example of a LE champion. It may not have been presented that way intended that way, nor may the source materiel be written that way, I think they fit hand in glove with Chiliax and the LE mechanicions of Hell and by extension the Cheliaxian Empire. I think that the House of Thrune probably believes that they are in control and merely use devils as a tool of order, but I think Asmodeus would be quite happy to let them live with their illusion of control, while he binds them tighter to Hell. Asmodeus may do the same thing with the Hell knights. Asmodeus may be pleased they are striding forth in the name of law, the whole while it is law without mercy or justice, and in some long term plan, Asmodeus might be using the Hell knights as an ultimate perversion of the law, slowly subtly and over time. There is alot in a name. All of that is merely my opinion.
My take on this is that while they are a LN organization any association with Hell must ultimately corrupt. While their strict adherence to the Measure and the influence of the LG minority among them helps to slow this corruption, they're still on the downward spiral to LE. If you already see brutality and an iron fist as useful tools to enforce order pretty soon those become the first tools you reach for.
I really think people should read both the Council of Thieves AP and it's Player's Guide if they are interested in either Hellknights or paladins in Cheliax. It's pure RP gold and sheds some light on how LG champion would function in a country controlled by a LE government.
Are they actually innocent? Or are they guilty of what they are accused?-Both. Lets take the less morally gray area of an escaped slave who's made repeated attempts.(i have no problems with knifing a slave owner on the way out but i'm not LG) The halfling is innocent in that they did nothing wrong. They are guilty by virtue of the fact that its illegal to escape when you're a slave.
The Paladin would protect the innocent and offer merciful justice to the guilty within the confines of the law. He might certainly work to change the law or offer mitigating circumstance to lessen the punishment. But, if you live in a state that has the law "Commit Crime X, and you will be executed," and you commit "Crime X," well, the Paladin can't and shouldn't help you escape responsibility for your actions.The halfling is, oddly enough, guilty of the crime, and a total innocent. He is guilty of stealing his own body from its lawful owner.
I dislike these arguments, mainly because personally I don't see slavery as a Law/Chaos issue, but as a Good/Evil issue.
But, once again, a Paladin who is operating in lands where slavery is legal, knows the score. He should be working every day to change the circumstance, change the law, promote goodness, etc. But, unless he's prepared to smite you know... everybody, he has to work within the system.
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EDIT: in reading this it comes off as far more confrontational than intended - I have no idea how to alter my word choice and don't have the time now in any case. So, uh, just add a metric ton of smileys? I dunno! Read it in a warm, friendly voice, 'cause that's how it's meant!
If that crime is ludicrous?What if the crime is failing to give homage to an evil deity?
"You failed to properly Worship Asmodeous, nor did yousuplicate yourself before his high preist, the penalty for that is Death!"
So the guy did it.... The Paladin just lets him get executed for that?
In this case, the paladin wouldn't be part of that culture. It would define itself as illegitimate by virtue of being its own evil. You're purposely choosing the extreme cases to prove a non-extreme point. Cheliax does not have that law. The Hellknights don't have that law. Not even Nidal has that law (IIRC - though, I think it tries really hard). There is no country in Golarion that has that rule as law (save, possibly, Nidal).
In this case, you have no ground to stand on because a Paladin would not join an order of Hellknights that does that. Since each order is localized (it specifies that this is a necessity and prevents a lichtor from having a conflict of interests in controlling more orders), the paladin chooses whether or not to grant their allegiance to a specific order. You are making a specific, local example, to refute a broad, universal rule. It's a fallacious argument. Of course a paladin wouldn't be part of a purely evil government. They also wouldn't be part of a purely chaotic "government". Look at Galt: there are no paladins of the revolution. Why? Because it's chaotic. Paladins are both lawful and good. They can, from one country, invade a different one with a righteous cause. That's called being a crusader. Which, in the example that you give, that paladin would join a different country, and become a righteous crusader. Instant resolution to your moral "dilemma".
Paladins' moral dilemmas come not from having a super-evil-overwhelming big bad guy of PURE EVIL, but from having the driving imperative to change what can be changed, where viable, and kill what inherently can't, where viable, and sorting all that out in the midst. When you provide a paladin with "uber-bad irredeemable" government, then, and only then, does their moral code step beyond their legal code.
One other thing: slavery is not always an evil thing (though in most cases, I'd certainly argue that it was or became so). In some (very rare) cases, it was even a good thing, where slaves had certain rights, privileges, and freedoms. In those (admittedly rare) cases, what made them slaves is that a) they were owned (to an extent) by a master and b) they had to (within the law) do whatever that master said, regardless of their personal preferences. Some willingly sold themselves into slavery to escape a life of poverty, willing to work hard to redeem themselves (purchase their freedom) while getting three warm meals, a bed, and clothes. Our personal look at slavery as a form of a) racism, b) despotism, c) cruelty, and thus evil comes from our own cultural background in which they were often treated wrongfully and for incorrect purposes. Slavery IS a dangerous, slippery slope, and that's its fallacy... and the reason it needed to be abolished. Not because it's inherently evil.
See I don't thhink I would expect him to turn himself in, resisting evil is what he is supposed to do, even if that evil is dressed inthe nicities of civilization.
But that's where you're incorrect. As an agent of law, he must turn himself in for his own crimes. That's a basic part of atonement: restitution of that which is wronged. "Wrong" in this case, meaning legally violated rather than morally. WHO he turns himself into is another dilemma, and a good one. Probably his order, who would probably then turn him over to the law, and legal restitution would be made in that way (often, probably, by financial investment or by becoming a slave himself). It's the same idea of passive resistance. Martin Luther King was a great paladin: a crusader for civil rights who accepted when he was arrested (and did not fight it) because it was the right - and legal - thing to do. In his case physical violence was wrong, but so were the things he was crusading against.
The history of the Order is only important if the average man might know the history. Everyone else just hears "Hellknight" and that does NOT convey a LN image.The story of Daidian Ruel seems EXACTLY the type of story `the common man` would tend to know. ESPECIALLY when it pretty much fore-shadows the death/disappearance of Aroden.
This seems to be your hang-up. You imagine that everbody can`t help but think `knights of hell` when they hear the name.
Since there are high level Paladins who are also Hell Knights, apparently there is no Cosmic Alignment contradiction happening.
Instead of imagining why what Paizo says is true couldn`t possibly be, I suggest imagining ways it COULD be true.it's a handwave.
They're basically saying 'it works because we say it works', instead of looking at the impossibility of it working.
Let me rephrase what you are saying. YOU imagine that NOBODY hears "Knights of Hell" when they hear the name. A paladin isn't worried about the fraction that might know the history. He's worried about the majority that do not, and would discount the noble origins based on all the Evil crap the Hellknights have been getting into. It's obviously fallen, they USE the name, instead of having it laid upon them and growing out of it.
mechanically and by the paladin code, the association rules alone render this impossible.
But, handwave. Meh.
==Aelryinth
Many people might think as you do, but not all people will.
The slaying of a devil to become a hellknight is not exactly pro-asmodeus either.
You could imagine that the people that join the hellknights have a very strong respect for law, it makes sense they have a certain measure of respect for Asmodeus and recognize he has an important role to play in the afterlife, recruiting sinful souls to keep the hordes of chaos at bay.
Looking at things from an evil/good perspective is good and well, but just as you can not smite everyone that glows red on your evil radar you have to recognize that evil is not 'just' evil an evil person might still be a valued member of the community, perhaps not very likable.
He's just arrived.
Adventures travel, don't they ever travel to where things are bad?
Does the Paladin support the unjust law, or does he fight the "Lawful Authority"?
This cam up becuase of the issue of coming across Hellknights returning slave TO another place, what about them returning people for execution for not providing proper suplication?Cheliax has devils running around, in service to the state -- right. So the paladin who rides into Chellax should already be at war with them, not saying " how do you do Mr. Bone Devil".
Actually, my Paladin rode into Westcrown. When he rode out, it was a much, much nicer place than it was when he arrived. He only managed to accomplish this because he wasn't smiting every evil person he came across. You can't really save people by killing them all.
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Some people have no appreciation for law.If my paladin encounters hellknights dragging slaves back to Cheliax, they're gonna get wailed on until they're dead.
My paladin respects legitimate authority; and tyrannies aren't legitimate.
(All you so-called paladins who can't figure this out should stop masquerading and multiclass into cavalier:order-of-the-lion at next level-up.)
I would love to play a Paladin in a game where another NPC paladin had that opinion. Playing in a game where the GM had that opinion would be...less fun.
Martin Luther King was a great paladin
I agree.
I realize the example is extreme, it is the arguement taken to its logical conclusion
I disagree.
Once again, your hypothetical Paladin is either living or arriving in Cheliax, and saying, "GASP! I'm shocked, shocked to discover there is slavery going on here! I must now smite everyone, including but not limited to everyone, until everyone who is a part of this terrible enterprise are annihilated!"
The more realistic situation is that the Paladin in question knows exactly what he is getting in to. He works to make things better, without trying to tear down the entire social order (and likely getting himself killed in the process, which helps nobody).
This is why I actually prefer how the PrC was presented in the AP originally, it was spelled out the the longer you were in service to the Hellknights, ie the more levels you had in the PrC, the more cold, detached, and cruel you became. Mechanically it works better as a 10 lvl progression as written.
Yeah, each version works better for the product it's in. I'm just glad both options are out there for folks who prefer one or the other!
I dislike these arguments, mainly because personally I don't see slavery as a Law/Chaos issue, but as a Good/Evil issue.
That's a false dichotomy. It is BOTH a law/chaos issue and a good evil issue. That's the problem: what is lawful and what is good are in direct, diametric opposition.
Slavery does not and cannot exist without a large scale legal frame work to keep it in place and something to keep the borders secure. The law helps keep people oppressed when the law is SUPPOSED to be lifting them up.
But, once again, a Paladin who is operating in lands where slavery is legal, knows the score. He should be working every day to change the circumstance, change the law, promote goodness, etc. But, unless he's prepared to smite you know... everybody, he has to work within the system.
and watch evil happen right in front of his eyes, stand by and let them happen. I think that works for a paladin in an abstract sense if he KNOWS its happening...until it happens right in front of him and he's morally obligated to stop it.
Oh. This turned into a discussion on the internetz about alignmentz and paladinz.
Yawn.
Oh. This turned into a discussion on the internetz about alignmentz and paladinz.
Yawn.
It is kind of the crux of the issue.