In the same way Hellknights represent Law, discipline, and power?The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
unregulated by conscience and relying upon the might of the Infernal?
==Aelryinth
In the same way Hellknights represent Law, discipline, and power?The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
unregulated by conscience and relying upon the might of the Infernal?
==Aelryinth
If killing a devil (initiation) means you venerate and ally with devils, then I'm pretty sure paladins are the most evil, devil loving thing out there.
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My paladin respects legitimate authority; and tyrannies aren't legitimate.
(All you so-called paladins who can't figure this out should stop masquerading and multiclass into cavalier:order-of-the-lion at next level-up.)
This is an amazingly modern (which I approve of) and ignorant (less ideal) way of thinking. The ancient Greeks often thought that a benign dictator (I'm forgetting the Greek term right now) was sometimes useful to restore balance to a city-state that had gone too far into corruption.
To slay agents of a lawfull authority doing only their job (and being no more cruel than nessary) is going to earn paladins in any game I run a quick trip to the atonement and rehabilitation clinic.
And it's not about 'existing to Glorify hell', although I'd like to point out that 'not all' means 'some do' which means you very, very definitely have Hellknights who exist to glorify Hell.
It's really about 'by existing you glorify Hell, even if you don't mean to.' That's the important part. Running around calling yourself a Hellknight glorifies Hell just by doing so. It shows people Hell has power, and they should turn to that power.
What kind of paladin is going to even think about advocating people turn to the power of Hell, directly or indirectly?
Although validating that some Hellknights exist to glorify Hell should absolutely bar the PrC right there simply by association.
===Aelryinth
If killing a devil (initiation) means you venerate and ally with devils, then I'm pretty sure paladins are the most evil, devil loving thing out there.In the same way Hellknights represent Law, discipline, and power?The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
unregulated by conscience and relying upon the might of the Infernal?
==Aelryinth
Devils kill Devils.
Daemons kill Devils.Demons kill Devils.
What in the heck does the initiation prove other then you're reasonably competent in melee combat?
Feh. Nobody cares if you kill Devils. It's a test of prowess, nothing more. And Hell doesn't care if you kill the weak.
==Aelryinth
I look at Hellknights and think of the old Carlin question, "If firefighters fight fires and crimefighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?"
Shout! Shout! Shout at the Devil!
yeah, but firefighters don't have rules against fighting fire with fire. Or associating with people that do.
Paladins DO have rules against fighting things with evil powers, or associating with folk that do.
==Aelryinth
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Why? Because Paladins aren't going to look to Hell as a model for doing ANYTHING?
Heavens, no. We'll venerate the King Of Hell. He's a nice chap, bit of a shame about the tyranny and damning souls and all, but he sure can do a nice turn on that legal language stuff now, can't he? Let's go add Unholy to our Holy Swords and bring up a Hell Hound so we can track down those escaped serfs and kill some NG freedom fighters trying to help them escape! We aren't doing Hell's work at all, running around in our Infernal Armor with a Bearded Devil along to give us advice!
And if we decide to not stoop to such things and the guy next to us does it for us, well, that's perfectly fine, we'll ignore all those pesky rules about associating with people working Evil stuff and be about enforcing the Law!
Yessir. (and for your future reference, it's 'per se'. Not a slam!)
==Aelryinth
Thanks on the correction :-) I'm a horrible speller. Little red squiggly lines all over my posts before I check 'em.
And what's wrong with admiring an Asmodeus' philosophies regarding Laws? According to Gods and Magic there are many good gods that look to Asmodeus for advice in legalities and crafting contracts. Evil people are admired all the time for the things they can do. Just look at Frank Lloyd Wright. Complete jerk who would take credit for other people's work and try to sleep with his friend's wives. Or Jackson Pollock who was a drunk jerk who killed two women and himself in a car drunk driving accident.
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The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
Except the part where they don't. It's a name. But honestly it's kidn of pointless aruging with you. Two devs have already came in adn told you why you're wrong AND told you that it's okay if that's the way you want to run it. There's nothing anyone could say to convince you otherwise regardless. So, I'm off to do something productive.
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I look at Hellknights and think of the old Carlin question, "If firefighters fight fires and crimefighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?"
Shout! Shout! Shout at the Devil!
yeah, but firefighters don't have rules against fighting fire with fire. Or associating with people that do.
Paladins DO have rules against fighting things with evil powers, or associating with folk that do.
==Aelryinth
And according to the core book a Paladin may work with an evil creature for the greater good.
If killing a devil (initiation) means you venerate and ally with devils, then I'm pretty sure paladins are the most evil, devil loving thing out there.In the same way Hellknights represent Law, discipline, and power?The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
unregulated by conscience and relying upon the might of the Infernal?
==Aelryinth
Devils kill Devils.
Daemons kill Devils.
Demons kill Devils.What in the heck does the initiation prove other then you're reasonably competent in melee combat?
Feh. Nobody cares if you kill Devils. It's a test of prowess, nothing more. And Hell doesn't care if you kill the weak.
==Aelryinth
Meh. In the end, it all comes down to the GM. while the majority seem to allow paladin/hellkinghts, if your interpretation is different, that's all up to you
Except the part where they don't. It's a name. But honestly it's kidn of pointless aruging with you. Two devs have already came in adn told you why you're wrong AND told you that it's okay if that's the way you want to run it. There's nothing anyone could say to convince you otherwise regardless. So, I'm off to do something productive.The cavaliers of the Order of the nail don't venerate nails, so cavaliers not venerating Dragons is not the point. It's what the point represents. Cavaliers of the dragon are in pursuit of Wealth, Power, and Glory, Get out of my way you peasant you. That's what the Dragon represents.
1) Thank you for confirming i wasnt the only one that saw the devs
2) Good job realizing we are going in circles here, i join you in your resignation
Contributor
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The caveat in the Paladin code about associating with evil for the greater good could also be used to spark a "change from within" paladin joining the Hellknights to try to turn their power to the greater good, rather than the strict mercenary enforcement of marshall law.
Some of the orders are labeled as Lawful Good, so it obviously depends on the character in question, their personal code and their goals.
I also think you're reading too much onto the name. Not all Blackguards actually guard things which are black, not all Duskwardens actually ward the dusk. Most lay-people of the world (especially in Cheliax- where the Hellknights primarily operate) see Hell as a bad force, sure, but in the name of a Hellknight probably associate it most as a source of punishment, rather than evil.
AArgh. I accept my wet noodle on the Dragon Order. I was naturally thinking of the Iconic Cavalier, who is Order of the Cockatrice.
Which still fits the example, and my point! (details wrong, argument correct!) The order of the Dragon represents a specific set of ideals, as does the cockatrice...and as does Hell. Unfortunately, Hellknights don't have the luxury of redefining what Hell stands for, like you can Dragon or Cockatrice.
And according to the book a paladin may work with an evil creature for the greater good IN THE SHORT TERM.
I hardly think that joining an order you may devote the rest of your life to, taking PrC levels in a class that draws on evil powers, and spreading the fine name of Hell to all and dear is a Short Term Goal. YMMV. "Yeah, I'll serve Asmodeus for the Greater Good," isn't quite going to fly with the paladin code. It could work if they stay a paladin, and the Hellknights are not Evil...but as soon as they start using Evil magic, for LN purposes or not, the paladin is going to have to say 'they go or I do.' Hence, a LG order of KNIGHTS is possible. But Hellknights? Nah.
Natch, read the association rules with evil characters. Not permitted. that's the LONG TERM aspect of things.
==Aelryinth
The caveat in the Paladin code about associating with evil for the greater good could also be used to spark a "change from within" paladin joining the Hellknights to try to turn their power to the greater good, rather than the strict mercenary enforcement of marshall law.
Some of the orders are labeled as Lawful Good, so it obviously depends on the character in question, their personal code and their goals.
I also think you're reading too much onto the name. Not all Blackguards actually guard things which are black, not all Duskwardens actually ward the dusk. Most lay-people of the world (especially in Cheliax- where the Hellknights primarily operate) see Hell as a bad force, sure, but in the name of a Hellknight probably associate it most as a source of punishment, rather than evil.
Blackguard is a term for a person with an evil heart, thoroughly reprehensible.
Duskwarden is about someone who keeps watch against the dark.
Hellknight is...a Knight of Hell. It's not a Knight against Hell. It's not a Knight who's Been Thru Hell. It's not a Knight Who Can Endure Hell.
There's a lot to be said for a Name. And when you look at the class and its abilities, Hellknight is absolutely perfect. It's NOT a LN class.
==Aelryinth
As a GM I'd be very careful about it. I'd allow someone who is a good role-player, willing to deal with difficult moral quandries, and mature enough to accept that in certain quandries there's just no perfect solution and he'll end up having to atone sooner or later. I don't see this being facially any more difficult than role-playing, for example, a Paladin of Helm in Forgotten Realms.[1]
The way I'd see hellknights being played is fundamentally consequentialist: the rule of law exists to promote the greater good. Any action, so long as it furthers the cause of law and therefore the greater good, is morally permissible.[2] This is opposed to Paladins in one way, that being for Paladins actions that inherently cause undue suffering are not justified by the greater good. For either, the end is clear: to further the rule of law as being for the greatest good; to the Paladin/Hellknight, the means to accomplish that end are more limited than their less-ethically-leashed brethren.
Just because a class has a given ability does not mean a player must use it. A Paladin/Hellknight may have the capability to summon a devil, but will refrain from doing so unless in serious peril thanks to it being an inherently evil act. To wit:
But Asmodeus is chortling away in Hell with a nice fuzzy feeling having Paladins calling themselves Hellknights, and showing all the dupes that Hell is the way to get things done.Case in point. What, do you think Asmodeus would not throw goodies like candy at Paladin/Hellknights just because they're good? Hell, the Paladin/Hellknight would probably end up with more goodies than their LN/LE brethren, and be manipulated into circumstances in which they'd be likely to be used, simply to kickstart them down the path of damnation.
Notations:
[1] In Faiths and Pantheons, if I recall correctly, this is elaborated upon. In the face of a dichotomous decision of Good versus Law, the Helmite Paladin must choose Law and does not lose...
let me be very straight. Asmodeus would LOVE to have Paladins take Hellknight levels! Please, please, please, keep associating yourself with Hell and your other FELLOW HELLKNIGHTS who summon things from Hell, use unholy weapons, and cause pain at will!
PLEASE DO SO!!! Be happy to help you with levels!!!
it's the Paladin who has to say, no.
And kindly note a Helmite Paladin is following a LN god (and they must have gods there) who is hardly like to punish his servant for making a Lawful decision.
that's quite a bit different then dropping into the Evil side of things.
And as for naming conventions, are you seriously trying to tell me that Hellknights and their orders are not called Hellknights? :) Even if, they are cavaliers and fighters and paladins?
===Aelryinth
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AArgh. I accept my wet noodle on the Dragon Order. I was naturally thinking of the Iconic Cavalier, who is Order of the Cockatrice.
Which still fits the example, and my point! (details wrong, argument correct!) The order of the Dragon represents a specific set of ideals, as does the cockatrice...and as does Hell. Unfortunately, Hellknights don't have the luxury of redefining what Hell stands for, like you can Dragon or Cockatrice.
And according to the book a paladin may work with an evil creature for the greater good IN THE SHORT TERM.
I hardly think that joining an order you may devote the rest of your life to, taking PrC levels in a class that draws on evil powers, and spreading the fine name of Hell to all and dear is a Short Term Goal. YMMV. "Yeah, I'll serve Asmodeus for the Greater Good," isn't quite going to fly with the paladin code. It could work if they stay a paladin, and the Hellknights are not Evil...but as soon as they start using Evil magic, for LN purposes or not, the paladin is going to have to say 'they go or I do.' Hence, a LG order of KNIGHTS is possible. But Hellknights? Nah.
Natch, read the association rules with evil characters. Not permitted. that's the LONG TERM aspect of things.
==Aelryinth
Except that you are not serving Asmodeus or any other emissary of Hell. Nowhere in any of the Hellknight writing does it state that they serve Hell.
And yes, it does state "short-term". Please define "short-term" and whose definition do we use?
And none of those abilities you talk about as being "evil" are listed as evil. Unlike Animate Dead which is. Simply using Summon Monster spells to summon things like that isn't evil. They obey your commands and have no freedom to act.
Just go ahead and admit that your arguements are personal opinion and call it a day.
Summoning Evil creatures is considered an evil act, not a neutral one. Especially ones with the Evil subtype. There's a reason for Prot/Evil spells.
Generally speaking, the infliction of pain upon others is considered an evil act. (grey area with combat).
The use of Unholy magic is pretty much considered evil magic, and it creates an EVIL ITEM.
Any glorification of Hell by pointing to its power is serving Asmodeus, whether you bow before the Tyrant's throne or think you are an oblivious idiot.
And one specific order names Asmodeus among the deities they venerate.
Your 'short-term' definition is a blind. It certainly doesn't mean "devote my life to an Order of Hellknights" and "take lifelong levels in the Hellknight PrC" now, does it?
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Quandry, you went back and edited your post (I copied the original, shame shame).
Of course I used the evil orders, but the base Hellknight itself had some of those aspects, which you kindly ignored. And if you don't think guilt by association transfers across orders which all call themselves Hellknights, I think you better think again. I know people who are incredibly prejudiced against Moslems because of terrorism and 9/11, and they are all over the place. And Al Qaeda isn't proclaiming themselves as the "Hellfighters" or anything blatantly like that...they are trying to call America 'the great satan" and trying to paint Americans with that brush!
===Aelryinth
And of course this is my personal opinion. I never said it wasn't.
I'm also stating that mechanically what the devs said is true is Not Possible by their own rules.
It's been Handwaved, all the conflicts ignored, and you can have Paladins running around in their Infernal Armor with Unholy Swords and fellow Knights with Bearded Devils giving them advice and using Hell Hounds as Trackers, and they can cheerfully work with them for the rest of their days in service to "the Greater Good".
There's so much impossibility right there...gak!
==Aelryinth
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I hardly think that joining an order you may devote the rest of your life to, taking PrC levels in a class that draws on evil powers, and spreading the fine name of Hell to all and dear is a Short Term Goal. YMMV. "Yeah, I'll serve Asmodeus for the Greater Good," isn't quite going to fly with the paladin code. It could work if they stay a paladin, and the Hellknights are not Evil...but as soon as they start using Evil magic, for LN purposes or not, the paladin is going to have to say 'they go or I do.' Hence, a LG order of KNIGHTS is possible. But Hellknights? Nah.
Do you actually read any of the information that's written? The Hellknoghts are not associated with the church of Asmodeous. Nor are hellknights evil*. Nor are the abilities granted with the class evil*.
* okay to be fair a minority are evil. Also I believe the order ability to summon a devil is also probably evil. However so long as a paladin does not associate with that order or other parts of the organization known to be bad guys there should be no problem.
To suggest that a paladin cannot join any large group which contains an evil members is very restrictive and pretty much means that they can only join paladin only groups.
Honestly I think it would be easier for a paladin to join the hellknights than the Eagle Knighs of Andoran.
Why? Because Paladins aren't going to look to Hell as a model for doing ANYTHING?
Heavens, no. We'll venerate the King Of Hell. He's a nice chap, bit of a shame about the tyranny and damning souls and all, but he sure can do a nice turn on that legal language stuff now, can't he? Let's go add Unholy to our Holy Swords and bring up a Hell Hound so we can track down those escaped serfs and kill some NG freedom fighters trying to help them escape! We aren't doing Hell's work at all, running around in our Infernal Armor with a Bearded Devil along to give us advice!
And if we decide to not stoop to such things and the guy next to us does it for us, well, that's perfectly fine, we'll ignore all those pesky rules about associating with people working Evil stuff and be about enforcing the Law!
Yessir. (and for your future reference, it's 'per se'. Not a slam!)
==Aelryinth
Thanks on the correction :-) I'm a horrible speller. Little red squiggly lines all over my posts before I check 'em.
And what's wrong with admiring an Asmodeus' philosophies regarding Laws? According to Gods and Magic there are many good gods that look to Asmodeus for advice in legalities and crafting contracts. Evil people are admired all the time for the things they can do. Just look at Frank Lloyd Wright. Complete jerk who would take credit for other people's work and try to sleep with his friend's wives. Or Jackson Pollock who was a drunk jerk who killed two women and himself in a car drunk driving accident.
Are you talking about admiration, or envy?
Admiration is you want to be like him, and everyone should be like him.
Envy is you know he did something and got away with it, and I wish I could do that and get away without consequences, too. And I wouldn't want him for a neighbor or my boss, either.
Asmodeus is good at his job. Dominating it. He's a weasel. You use the lawyer to confound the lawyer. You can respect his ability. But life would be much better if you didn't have a need for his services, or to stop the kind of stuff you need him for.
I.e. he's not admired. He's respected, and more importantly, he's made himself NECESSARY. tad bit different then Admired by Good Gods.
===Aelryinth
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No, it hasn't been handwaved. It's complicated, which is something Piazo has built into their fiction from the begining. There's a big difference there kiddo.
It's been fun, and I genuinely do mean that :-), cherry-picking our arguments back and forth (as I've noticed you've assumed all Hellknights will summon evil things and use evil magic while venerating Asmodeus -who is only venerated in a small aspect of- while ignoring the fact that these are options within the orders and that not all orders function the same way) but I have a big day of studying tomorrow with Anatomy and Microbiology tests next.
Later gator.
I hardly think that joining an order you may devote the rest of your life to, taking PrC levels in a class that draws on evil powers, and spreading the fine name of Hell to all and dear is a Short Term Goal. YMMV. "Yeah, I'll serve Asmodeus for the Greater Good," isn't quite going to fly with the paladin code. It could work if they stay a paladin, and the Hellknights are not Evil...but as soon as they start using Evil magic, for LN purposes or not, the paladin is going to have to say 'they go or I do.' Hence, a LG order of KNIGHTS is possible. But Hellknights? Nah.Do you actually read any of the information that's written? The Hellknoghts are not associated with the church of Asmodeous. Nor are hellknights evil*. Nor are the abilities granted with the class evil*.
* okay to be fair a minority are evil. Also I believe the order ability to summon a devil is also probably evil. However so long as a paladin does not associate with that order or other parts of the organization known to be bad guys there should be no problem.
To suggest that a paladin cannot join any large group which contains an evil members is very restrictive and pretty much means that they can only join paladin only groups.
Honestly I think it would be easier for a paladin to join the hellknights than the Eagle Knighs of Andoran.
The Hellknights are perceived to interact with Hell. The difference between orders will blur and will largely be meaningless. Guilt and contamination by association. Every Hellknight will be initially suspected of, well, acting like someone who admires HELL, and will have to prove otherwise.
And there IS an order that specifically venerates Asmodeus. Hooray for taint by association.Paladins join non-evil groups all the time. Churches, noble knightly orders, adventuring bands...as a matter of fact, they make a point to do it because of class restrictions, and always have!
By 'Honestly think', do you mean the Eagle Knights don't have standards, and the Hell Knights do, or vice versa? Or the Hellknights don't have evil members, and the Eagle Knights do?
Certainly, the fact the patron of the Eagle Knights is a NG outsider isn't going to be a strike against them, nor is the fact that a paladin joining the eagle knights would try to purge any evil from it, and likely be lauded for his efforts.
With the Hellknights, that's basically impossible. Your patronage is diabolic, some of the powers you get are LE, and some orders openly consort with devils. I mean, c'mon!
The Hellknights would happily let him in. Lower Standards, he only has to be Lawful. Eagle Knights, he has to not be a total a$$hole, too.
==Aelryinth
Is there any reason a paladin can't be a Hellknight?No.
There is the potential for challenges within the various orders' hierarchies, but there's nothing that forbids paladins from being Hellknights (and challenges like that are part of the appeal of playing a paladin in my opinion). In fact, you'll note the first place I ever mentioned Hellknights was in the paladin section of the Rise of the Runelords player's guide.
If you haven't already, you should see the two articles covering Hellknight orders and Hellknight citadels in Pathfinder #27 and #28 (respectively). Therein you'll not only find mention of Hellknight paladins, but you'll also find notes on the Order of the Pike and the Order of the Scar, both of which might be predisposed to paladin members.
Remember, Hellknights are not about evil, they're about absolute law and model their vision of merciless discipline and order after the greatest example of military order in the multiverse: the legions of Hell. In fact, every Hellkinght must face and defeat a devil in battle to advance - after all, if a solider has faced and bested a denizen of Hell, what horror can the mortal world hold for him?
But, then you get into the whole "Paladin of Asmodeus" concept?
(And what horrors can the mortal world hold? How about "Ambiguity.")
No, it hasn't been handwaved. It's complicated, which is something Piazo has built into their fiction from the begining. There's a big difference there kiddo.
It's been fun, and I genuinely do mean that :-), cherry-picking our arguments back and forth (as I've noticed you've assumed all Hellknights will summon evil things and use evil magic while venerating Asmodeus -who is only venerated in a small aspect of- while ignoring the fact that these are options within the orders and that not all orders function the same way) but I have a big day of studying tomorrow with Anatomy and Microbiology tests next.
Later gator.
I've assumed nothing of the sort. I've made multiple examples of the fact the paladin has to do nothing but be affiliated with the name and order to be contaminated, and/or to make use of his Class Abilities.
1) he doesn't have to venerate Hell. But his being a Hellknight is going to present that image of Hell's power whether he cares or not. that's the power of a name.
2) There are Hellknights that actively serve Evil, and some specifically venerate Asmodeus, and there are DEFINITELY evil Hellknights. Association rules BAR the paladin from associating or being associated with them. Like, by being a fellow Hellknight.
3) There are specific class abilities of the Hellknight PrC that are Evil, and there are NONE that are good. There is a SPECIFIC instance where it is plain that LG outsiders do NOT respect the Hellknight class. It is NOT A LAWFUL NEUTRAL CLASS, despite what anyone can argue. By taking levels in it, you are confirming the validity of those powers, even if you never, ever use them. Congrats! Doing Hell's Work again. Go on, tempt some more dupes.
I can appreciate grey issues. The problem is they are shoehorning a very black and white class, the paladin, into a class that is NOT grey...it is most definitely tainted with Evil. It's a handwave to generate greyness. It does not work.
I wouldn't be having this discussion if that taint wasn't there. A class of Lawknights with clear LN powers could very easily accept paladins and not have conflicts. HEllknights are NOT a LN class.
==Aelryinth
Is there any reason a paladin can't be a Hellknight?No.
There is the potential for challenges within the various orders' hierarchies, but there's nothing that forbids paladins from being Hellknights (and challenges like that are part of the appeal of playing a paladin in my opinion). In fact, you'll note the first place I ever mentioned Hellknights was in the paladin section of the Rise of the Runelords player's guide.
If you haven't already, you should see the two articles covering Hellknight orders and Hellknight citadels in Pathfinder #27 and #28 (respectively). Therein you'll not only find mention of Hellknight paladins, but you'll also find notes on the Order of the Pike and the Order of the Scar, both of which might be predisposed to paladin members.
Remember, Hellknights are not about evil, they're about absolute law and model their vision of merciless discipline and order after the greatest example of military order in the multiverse: the legions of Hell. In fact, every Hellkinght must face and defeat a devil in battle to advance - after all, if a solider has faced and bested a denizen of Hell, what horror can the mortal world hold for him?
But, then you get into the whole "Paladin of Asmodeus" concept?
(And what horrors can the mortal world hold? How about "Ambiguity.")
I agree. This fluff does not match up with facts.
Hellknights definitely use evil means in pursuit of their goals, and have several class abilities centered on it.
The greatest example of military order in the universe is the backstabbing totalitarian jackboot of Hell? What? It's not the perfectly ordered axiomatics, or the fearless self-sacrifice of the ordered legions of Heaven?
And killing a devil makes you fearless in the face of mortal horrors? Is that some achievement feat I don't know about?
Sorry, rules not match fluff. If you want ambiguity, playing a Paladin turning into a Hellknight isn't about grey, it's about heading for a Fall.
I mean, seriously, the first thing I'd do when he does something Hellknightish and goes for an Atonement to get back his paladinhood is "Okay, prove thy devotion by turning aside from the path that has led you to this point." I.e. give up your Hellknight levels and get the heaven out of Dodge. Atonement doesn't have to be FREE. And using it as a 'no consequences for my decisions' card should be rightfully smited. Smote?
==Aelryinth
There is a difference between being a part of the order and being the PRC. Not all hellknights have the PRC, a majority would not have the PRC.
The name hellknights was explained, it has nothing to do with hell really, they are not devil worshipers, they are not evil. Some orders could and do have paladins, but not all orders do so.
There is a difference between being a part of the order and being the PRC. Not all hellknights have the PRC.
The name hellknights was explained, it has nothing to do with hell really, they are not devil worshipers, they are not evil. Some orders could and do have paladins, but not all orders do so.
You are reading some of the posts, and not mine.
1) It had nothing to do with it when it started. It most definitely has connotations NOW. Some of them ARE devil worshippers. Many of them ARE evil. There IS a direct connection with Hell in the PrC.
Mechanically, none of them should have paladins by pure association rules with the name, PrC, and evil hellknights.
That they do is an authorial handwave. 'Paladins of Asmodeus', whether they think they are or aren't. The Devil King chortles on his ruby throne.
==Aelryinth
The question seems to come down to "how much chocolate do you have to bribe your dm with?".
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The Hellknights are perceived to interact with Hell. The difference between orders will blur and will largely be meaningless. Guilt and contamination by association. Every Hellknight will be initially suspected of, well, acting like someone who admires HELL, and will have to prove otherwise.
And there IS an order that specifically venerates Asmodeus. Hooray for taint by association.
I don't buy it. What does a paladin care if others think he associates with evil? The ignorant and foolish believe many things which are not true.
Are you by chance referring to the Order of the God Claw as worshiping Asmodious? If do you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the worship only the lawful aspects of the five deities the hold in esteem.
By 'Honestly think', do you mean the Eagle Knights don't have standards, and the Hell Knights do, or vice versa? Or the Hellknights don't have evil members, and the Eagle Knights do?
Nope. I think the core goals and methodology of the Eagle Knights are actively undermining lawful authority which the paladin CoC demands they respect.
With the Hellknights, that's basically impossible. Your patronage is diabolic, some of the powers you get are LE, and some orders openly consort with devils. I mean, c'mon!
I dispute your assertion of diabolic patronage.
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Pretty sure JJ has said that there is no problem with Paladins becoming Hellknights. Don't have the source off the top of my head but I know I've read it.
I don't see the conflict either. The emulation of Hell comes from the emulation of the strict adherence to the law, not Hell itself. For instance, I can admire my dire enemy's skill with a blade or supreme magical power without becoming my enemy. In fact, if you read up on the Piazo info about Hellknights, it states that they actually DON'T like Hell at all. Hence all the killing of it's servants to enter the order.
Can you be a paladin and then take the Hell knight prestige class?
This is an interesting question. I am sure by RAW, there is probably nothing hindering
you from taking the prestige class as other’s have said.
Now as Kieviel has said, and I think the Developers have intended, “The emulation of hell comes from the emulation for the strict adherence to the law, not hell itself.”
“They (hellkinghts) actually don’t like hell at all. Hence all the killing of its servants to enter the order.”
I just looked up the requirements for the prestige class in the Inner Sea World guide, and as Kieviel says you must kill a devil of greater HD then your own, and it must be witnessed by a helknight.
I suppose I have a slightly different opinion perhaps from some other posters, and perhaps from some of the developers. I understand the Developers have written the Hellkngihts orders to be LN, however, I do not think that you can emulate hell without being tainted by it. Regarding hell I don’t think you can parse out the law from the evil. Perhaps this is a bad analogy but I think if you swim in red paint, you will come out red, and you can hardly complain about the red color of your clothing and skin afterwards. So if you are emulating hell, at the end of the day, I think both law and evil will permeate you.
If you are going to serve the Law there of course is the LN alignment, and Abadar.
I suppose we all are going to have our own interpretations.
Ultimately it comes down to what your GM says.
Are you by chance referring to the Order of the God Claw as worshiping Asmodious? If do you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the worship only the lawful aspects of the five deities the hold in esteem.
Well you see the godclaw is an odd take, they have distilled what they think of as a universal "law code" from 5 orderly faiths. They are not really all that holy, they just see this book of laws as the most "true". If I had to guess I would say clerics of Adabar are far, far more common within the ranks then Asmdue's clerics ever dreamed of being.
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Do you concider the 10th century modern? In Western Europe the idea that baad people could be incharge and they would have to be destroyed by good people was well established. If the Church excommunicated a king or the like then his vassals allegence was dissolved, many times the Church called for open rebellion against such leaders. Who is the Palain if notthe Hand of god smiting the evil hand of those who are persecuting the innocent?
Any Paladin who does not actively oppose evil, be it Lawful Evil, should lose his powers. LG believes that Law is essential becuase it brings Good to all, not becuase it is the law, THAT would be LN. Paladins are not LN.
Hum. I never said squat about evil. I was referring to tyranny and dictatorships. Bot of which the 10th century Roman Catholic church approved of. You are claiming that actions taken in accordance with the law are evil and paladins must oppose them.
This is not true.
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
As you can see a paladin is not required to right every wrong. Even if we conseed that a group of Hellknights escorting slaves is being evil, the paladin is under no onus to interfere. He is required to respect their lawfull authority.
I am saying that if Law X is evil, then its enforcement is evil and that if a paladin enforces it, or allows it to be enforced on his watch, he is in trouble....
Whose version of evil? In this case slavery is an excepted LN practice among every major country in golarion but one. It is not seen as evil by 95% of the world, distasteful maybe but not in and of itself evil.
That paladin is acting more CG then LG. He may not like the government of cheilx or well everywhere that allows slavery, but it is both legitimate and lawful. They are not random dictators that over threw a government, they are the winners in a nation wide, many sided civil war and recognized as such by the losers and other nations. Sometimes the bad guys are in charge.
Evil and tyrannical folks can indeed be legit.
EDIT: ninja'd by, like, everyone. Gee thanks, guys! What's a guy who writes too much (and totally got called away) supposed to do? Actually CUT DOWN? Bah! :)
The post from the devs indicated that there are paladins in the orders that have Hellknights. It did NOT indicate there are paladin Hellknights (the PrC). It doesn't matter about emulating law...they are emulating the Law of Hell. It's right there in the PrC name. It's in the higher level abilities.
If it was a true Lawful PrC, they'd venerate Abadar and the Eternal City Axiom, and be Axiomknights, not HELLknights.
So, no, no Paladin Hellknights. Yes, Paladin's possible in orders to which non-Evil Hellknights belong, attempting to set them on the proper road.
==Aelryinth
Pardon, man, but you've argued this before. It's still wrong. For all you out there, I did a quick search...
(I've posted the link to the thread and then the relevant quotes from that thread)
Look here.
Oops, no more paladins of Cayden Cayleen (however you spell that) or Asmodeous.
That's not an oops at all, in my opinion. :-)
That said... if you're playing your alignment "right," then you're probably already within one step of your deity. Unless you're a heretic, and since that type of player choice should probably come with some in-world repercussions that are beyond the scope of a massive org play campaign to address on a player by player level... yeah, it's a good thing.
Doesn't that make issues for Hellknight Paladins (who, regardless of PFS, you've said exist in-setting)?
Not at all. Paladins are lawful good. They can still be Hellknights, because not all Hellknights worship Asmodeus. In fact, I'd say most Hellknights do NOT worship Asmodeus. Paladin Hellknights would generally probably worship Iomedae, Torag, or Abadar, I would venture.
Or here:
Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.
[SNIP] Or just a paladin who decides to pledge his/her life to his companion's safety, or to some sort of knighthood or other organization. The Eagle Kngihts and the Knights of Ozem and the Hellknights are three such established orders you could look at.
I am having much lol over the idea of Paladin Hellknight. Not quite ROTFL, but more than normal lol...
Since Hellknights are usually lawful neutral, it's just as plausible for a lawful good one as it is for a lawful evil one. Pathfinder AP volumes #27 and #28 have large articles about the Hellknights that have a lot more information about how they work, and why both clerics of Asmodeus and paladins can work for the group. Probably not the same ORDERS at the same time, though... but there are a LOT of Hellknight orders.
Also here:
In fact, I believe one or two of the Hellknight orders might even be LED by paladins. Not sure off the top of my head.
Hellknights are lawful, more than anything else. The majority of them are lawful neutral, but there are probably an equal number of lawful good and lawful evil ones. Some of those lawful good ones are indeed paladins.
It's worth noting that Hellknights do not serve hell. They use the word "hell" as part of their intimidation process and as part of their inspiration for how they're organized. Sure, there is indeed some "infernal infiltration" into the organization, and Asmodeus and his church do use and manipulate the Hellknights... but not all Hellknights, and not all Hellknight orders, are evil.
In fact, if you really want to play a so-called "paladin of Asmodeus," playing a cavalier or fighter or ranger that starts taking Hellknight prestige class levels is pretty much the exact character you're looking for, I suspect.
Or even here:
A Paladin will stay in his order of Hellknights unless his god forbids it. He will try to change their way towards Good through his example but will still serve loyally.
After all, the greatest test of honor lies in serving honorably a dishonorable master.
Of course, it is not easy, but then, if you were looking for the easy way, you would probably not be a Paladin to begin with.
Hellknight leader: "String these peasants up as an example to the others!"
Paladin Hellknight: "On what charges?"
Hellknight leader: "On charges of me making an example of them. I don't care if they are guilty or not, it'll send a message to the rebels we aren't to be trifled with - now do it!"
So, does he serve loyally and kill the innocent (welcome to the world of being a sh*tty fighter!) or remain a paladin and rebel?
I seem to recall that "My Honour is Loyalty" was the motto of a group of people who committed the worst atrocities against humanity in the 20th century ... and THAT is what is the scary thing about the hellknights.
See... the thing is that Hellknights wouldn't string up peasants in the first place to set examples. They would certainly string up a bunch of criminals to set examples, but not innocents. So this situation likely wouldn't occur. Unless it were LEGAL to just string up innocent peasants. Which, even in Cheliax, it's not.
James has been pretty clear. It's his world, so his rules. You can house rule your own stuff, but it'd be just that: house rules.
I don't buy it. What does a paladin care if others think he associates with evil?The Hellknights are perceived to interact with Hell. The difference between orders will blur and will largely be meaningless. Guilt and contamination by association. Every Hellknight will be initially suspected of, well, acting like someone who admires HELL, and will have to prove otherwise.
And there IS an order that specifically venerates Asmodeus. Hooray for taint by association.
Agreed.
A Paladin who acts based on what the world wants him to do...? No, it's not the Paladin/Hellknight who's in danger of being tainted.
Ok, but what happens when its time to string up the slaves for escape or insurrection, both of which I'm pretty sure are illegal in any slave owning society?
The only times slaves would be strung up is in the case of mass violence or murder. How is that any different from hanging any other killer?
The Hellknights do not murder innocent people. They enforce the Law. A killer is a killer and a man who tries to burn half the city is the same no matter if he is free or an escaped slave.
Escaping does not bring death, killer, maiming or crimes that anyone gets hung for does that.
This is really a non issue as a whole.