I think the penalty on attacks from fighting defensive and total defense is the same, because with FD, you still get your normal attacks, and with TD, you only get attacks if someone provokes an AoO. So in essence, you're giving up your regular attacks for a bit more defense.
Of course, I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.
Of course, I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it.
You're completely correct. Total defense means the only attacks you're making are AoO, and there's no reason to levy a higher penalty on those than the one you're already taking.
This week I'm working on paring down the bard inspirations. My feeling is that, currently, there's too much overlap (instill fear, doomspeak, etc.) and also too many that do fiddly, situational things (inspired tactics).
My hope is to get the list down to something far more manageable, and also with more logical level pegs for when you gain which abilities.
Suggestions/recommendations, as always, are welcome.
for edits, note P = page
p2 Would you like to add the comment “If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose it's AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.” Under heavy shield martial proficiency?
P22 near the bottom it should be “a” rough exchange table.
As an aside, you state xxx gp, in the special materials section. Would you like to change all the final gp references to numen references?
P 25 Under enhanced companions “(see spell effects, below)” should be above.
P 25 Pseudodragon is misspelled in enhanced companions.
P27 for medium armors, the +1 enhancement bonus should start after + 4 correct? It is unlisted for medium armors and one could assume either hide +4 or scale +5 but for simplicity sake I assume you want only one number (and hide makes more sense)?
P27 for stone: simulated and bastard are misspelled.
P28 the last bullet point under adamantine should be weapons correct?
P30 is there a benefit to have darkwood weapons? Nothing is listed but in the SRD the weapons weight used to be reduced by half.
P 31 the abysium weapons need a gp cost (looks like sickening strike at +6 BAB so 12,000 gp)
P 31 Astral drift metal, did you need “weapons” in the first bullet point since you have a weapons bullet point below?
P32 Celestrum first bullet points should be “light” armor and shields. Also the heavy armor bullet point should be gp not hp.
P 33 For greensteel armor what is the total numen adjustment price?
P34 the total numen adjustment for stygian ice?
P34 what types are the penalties to Inubrix (likely alchemical for hardness and enhancement for the to hit and damage.
P33 for Blue ice, the first bullet point should be “light” armor and shields. For weapons should it be see above to calculate appropriate weapons cost?
P34 the weapon cost for rattling strike, would that be 12,000 gp (feat with a +6 BAB)
P 35 for obdurium, oerthblood, and proteum the bonus to hardness is an alchemical bonus correct? Also it is intentional that oerthblood’s bonus to hp does not scale like most of the armors do (light, medium, and heavy)?
P35 the pearlsteel bonus to weapons, is the 2000 gp addition correct?
P36 for pandemonic silver, the hurricane wind should likely by 75-174 rather than to 154 (since tornado starts are 175.) and the penalties to hardness and hp are alchemical correct?
Wow -- thanks, Christopher! With your permission, I'll move your name up in the credits as "Editor-in-Chief."
P.S. Happy Independence Day to all the Americans on the thread!
P.P.S. Corrections made to master document -- thanks again.
Bardic Inspiration -- Revised. I'll post this under the EGG of Coot alias profile as well, after people have had a chance to provide comments.
FOCHLUCAN INSPIRATIONS
At 15th level, your disappearing act enables affected creatures to move through crowd squares and enemy-occupied squares without impediment. Affected creatures are treated as if having greater invisibility, but enemies gain a new saving throw to notice them each time they are attacked. This inspiration supersedes the Street Performer’s variant class feature of the same name, from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
Encourage Failure: Affected enemies receive a -1 morale penalty on skill checks and attribute checks (Will save negates); for every 4 class levels you possess, the magnitude of the penalty increases by 1. This mind-affecting ability replicates the Harbinger class feature of the same name (from Dragon magazine, issue 337).
Fortune’s Favor: While you maintain this inspiration, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. These bonuses improve by an additional +1 per 5 class levels you possess. This inspiration supersedes the “archaeologist’s luck” variant class feature from Ultimate Combat.
Inspire Celerity: You and affected allies gain a +5 ft. morale bonus to your base land speeds. At 4th level, and every four bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +5 ft., to a maximum of +30 ft. at 20th level. This inspiration supersedes the Marshal’s motivate urgency aura from the Miniatures Handbook, and the Warmaster’s “deployment” battle tactic from the Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games).
Inspire Competence: Affected allies gain a +1 morale bonus on attribute and skill checks for as long as you maintain the inspiration. those to be affected must be attempting the same task (e.g., climbing a wall, or avoiding slipping on a pitching ship’s deck). Affected allies receive a +1 morale bonus on the check equal to 1/3 your class level. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth (unless you have the Accompaniment lore and are under a silence spell), and may be disallowed at the referee's discretion. It supersedes the Marshal’s motivate strength (et al.) auras from the Miniatures Handbook.
Inspire Courage: You inspire courage in yourself and your allies, bolstering against fear and improving combat abilities. Those affected receive a +1 morale bonus to attacks, weapon damage, and saving throws against fear effects. At 4th level, and every four bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Each round, allies within 30 ft. who are already under a fear or despair effect can attempt a new save each round using your Perform (music) or Knowledge (linguistics) skill check results for that round in place of the saving throw. This does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. This inspiration supersedes the Arcane Duelist’s rallying cry variant class feature from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide, and also the Marshal’s motivate ardor, motivate attack, and steady hand auras, from the Miniatures Handbook.
Inspiring Blow (Skald only): When you confirm a critical hit, you can start this performance as an immediate action (ending any other performances). You gain temporary hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier (if positive) x your bard level. These temporary hit points remain until you end the performance. Additionally, all allies within 30 feet gain a +1 morale bonus on their next attack roll prior to the start of your next turn. This inspiration replicates the Savage Skald’s variant class feature of the same name, from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
Instant Daze (Skald only): A skald can learn to daze an enemy who strikes him in melee (Will negates) by spending 1 round of inspiration upon being struck. The effect lasts for 1 round, or as long as you continue to extend the inspiration and spend additional rounds of use. This is a mind-affecting compulsion. Creatures with HD greater than your bard level are immune. You can’t activate this ability in response to an attack you are unaware of. Source: Players Handbook II.
Inspire Dread: Affected enemies receive a –1 morale penalty on attacks, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear effects (Will negates). At 4th level, and every four bard levels thereafter, these penalties increase by 1, to a maximum of –6 at 20th level. Instill fear is a mind-affecting, fear ability. It replicates the Harbinger class feature of the same name (from Dragon magazine, issue 337), and also the Court Bard’s satire bardic performance from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
Spellsong, Fochlucan: Choose one 1st level spell that fulfills the following conditions:
It must be on the bard class spell list;
The school must be abjuration, enchantment, necromancy, or transmutation (except those of the polymorph sub-school). A minstrel can use a spell of any school as long as it has the [sonic] descriptor.
The casting time must be no more than 1 standard action;
The duration must be at least 1 round per level;
It must specifically target one or more living creatures, or else affect living creatures within an area; and
The spell must be thematically or inspirationally appropriate (subject to group approval).
You need not know the spell in question.
When you use this inspiration, the effects of the spell occur as a supernatural ability, with a saving throw based on your class level and Charisma modifier, and lasting as long as you maintain the inspiration. Spellsongs affecting an area always use your square as their point of origin. If the effects are beneficial and apply to multiple targets (or an area), your enemies are excluded from the effects; if the effects are harmful and apply to multiple targets (or an area), you and your allies are excluded. If the spell normally affects only a single target, you can affect multiple creatures by multiplying the daily inspiration cost by the total number of targets.
You may select this inspiration more than once; each time, choose a different spell.
MAC-FUIRMIDH INSPIRATIONS
For as long as you maintain the effect, allies within 30 ft. who can hear you can ignore the fatigued condition. Allies who are exhausted are fatigued instead. If you are 9th level or higher, affected allies ignore both fatigue and exhaustion for as long as you maintain this inspiration.
This inspiration supersedes the feat of the same name from Complete Scoundrel, and also the Warrior Skald’s “marcher’s chant” prestige class feature from Races of Faerun, and the Sea Singer’s “sea shanty” variant class feature and the Battle Herald’s reveille command, from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide. When used to stave off the effects of fatigue or exhaustion, it subsumes the Epic of the Lost King feat from Complete Scoundrel, and also the Dawncaller’s “inspire stamina” prestige class feature from Races of Stone.
Dishearten: A bard of either type of 3rd level or higher can fill opponents with an overwhelming sense of doom, inflicting a -1 morale penalty to all saving throws and to AC (Will negates). The magnitude of the penalty increases by 1 per 4 class levels you possess. This is a mind-affecting, fear ability that replicates the Harbinger class feature of the same name (from Dragon magazine, issue 337).
Grant Move Action: A bard of either type of 3rd level or higher can learn to maneuver allies advantageously. Each ally (not including you) within 30 ft. who can hear you can take an immediate move action on your turn. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity normally. This extra action does not affect the allies' initiative count; the round continues normally after your turn is over. (This may mean, for example, that an ally whose initiative count immediately follows yours may get an extra move action from the you, followed directly by a full round worth of actions on the ally's turn.)
A character can take only one extra move action per round. In other words, two characters can't use this ability on the same ally in the same round. If an ally chooses not to take the extra move action, it is lost. This inspiration supersedes the Marshal’s class feature of the same name, from the Miniatures Handbook, and also simulates the order forged from chaos maneuver from the Tome of Battle.
Individual Tactics (Skald only): Each round you maintain this inspiration, choose one combat feat you know; one ally within 30 feet gains the use of one combat feat if he or she meets the prerequisites. You can affect multiple allies, but this requires use of additional rounds of inspiration (e.g., if three allies are affected, you expend 3 rounds’ worth of inspiration each round), and all affected allies must share the same feat. This supersedes the Warmaster’s battle tactic of the same name from the Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games).
Inspire Caution: Affected allies receive a +1 morale bonus to AC and saving throws; this bonus increases by an additional +1 per 4 class levels you possess. At 12th level, this effect is equivalent to the inspire heroics performance in the Core rules. This also supersedes the Marshal’s motivate care and resilient troops auras from the Miniatures Handbook.
Inspire Will: Each round you maintain this inspiration, make a Perform (music) or Knowledge (linguistics) check, as appropriate for your tradition. Affected allies can use the results of your skill check (without the additional bonus described above) in place of any Will saves and/or concentration checks that round. This inspiration duplicates the Battle Herald’s keep your heads inspiring command from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide, and also the Marshal’s force of will aura from the Miniatures Handbook.
Spellsong, Mac-Fuirmidh: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 2nd rather than 1st. Selecting cat’s grace allows you to combine the Daredevil’s derring-do performance from Ultimate Combat and the War Chant feat from Dragon magazine (issue 335), for example.
Sustaining Song: A bard of either type of 3rd level or higher can learn to inspire hope even in those who lay dying. For as long as he continues this inspiration, dying allies need not roll to stabilize, and thus lose no additional hit points by failing to roll. Once the inspiration ends, those affected go back to dying if they fail stabilization checks. This inspiration supersedes the Virtuoso prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Adventurer.
DOSS INSPIRATIONS
Captivating Melody (Minstrel only): As part of the casting of a bard spell, you can attempt a Perform (music) check. If the check fails, you still lose the daily uses of bardic inspiration but gain no benefit. If it succeeds, you receive a bonus of up to +5 on the save DC, depending on the DC at which you set the check and the number of rounds’ worth of bardic inspiration you are willing to expend. The Perform check DCs, and the number of rounds’ worth of bardic inspiration you must spend to gain the effects of the inspiration, are summarized in the following table.
DC Modifier Perform DC Cost
+1 10 + spell level 1 round
+2 15 + spell level 3 rounds
+3 20 + spell level 6 rounds
+4 25 + spell level 10 rounds
+5 30 + spell level 15 rounds
This inspiration supersedes the feat of the same name, from Complete Mage, and also the Vivify Song feat from Monte Cook’s Book of Eldritch Might II (Malhavoc Press).
Dirge of Doom: This inspiration combines the effects of encourage failure, inspire dread, and dishearten (q.v.). Those affected are considered shaken for purposes of removing or stacking fear effects (at a penalty of -4, the condition is equivalent to frightened, and panicked at -6, for purposes of removing or stacking fear effects)
Snowflake Wardance (Skald only): While inspired in this way, add your Intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to attack rolls and damage with any melee weapon you wield (to a maximum bonus equal to your bard level). You cannot use this ability if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Source: Frostburn.
Sound the Retreat: Affected allies gain the benefit of the Wind Stance feat (20% miss chance as long as they move more than 5 ft.) for as long as you maintain the inspiration. If you have at least 11 levels in bard, the miss chance increases to 50%. This inspiration supersedes the Battle Herald’s scatter and sound the retreat inspiring commands, from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
Spellbreaker Song: Enemy spellcasters within 5 feet per class level you possess take a 20% spell failure chance when casting any spell that has a verbal component (as if they were deafened).
Once per round as an immediate action while maintaining this effect, you can choose to target a single spellcaster. In order to complete the casting of a designated spell, the target must succeed at a Concentration check at a DC equal to the results of your Perform (music) or Knowledge (linguistics) check. You must identify the spell being cast with a Spellcraft check to use this effect.
This inspiration subsumes the variant class feature of the same name from Complete Mage, the Seeker of the Song’s “hymn of spelldeath” prestige class feature from Complete Arcane, and the bardic magician’s “spell suppression” variant class feature from the Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide.
Spellsong, Doss: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 3rd rather than 1st. Selecting haste as the spell enables you to emulate the Dervish Dancer’s “rain of blows,” from Ultimate Combat.
Warning Shout: A bard of either type of 6th level or higher can learn to warn his allies of danger. As an immediate action, you can grant a single ally (other than yourself) a +5 morale bonus on her next Reflex save and evasion (as the rogue class feature). The ally must be within 30 feet of you and able to see or hear you. You can affect multiple allies, but this requires 1 rounds’ expenditure of your inspiration per ally, per round the effect is maintained. This inspiration supersedes the feat of the same name from Complete Scoundrel, and also the Marshal’s watchful eye aura, from the Miniatures Handbook.
CANAITH INSPIRATIONS
Impart Maneuvers: A skald of 9th level or higher can learn to impart a single combat feat to himself and all allies within 30 feet. You need not know the selected feat, but it must not have more than 2 other feats as prerequisites. This ability cannot impart weapon proficiencies. This inspiration supersedes the Warpriest prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Divine.
Inspire Greatness: A skald of 9th level or higher can learn to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting extra fighting capability. A creature inspired with greatness temporarily gains 1 level in Warrior (including HD, hp, and increased BAB and saves), in addition to retaining his/her normal levels and HD. For every class level above 9th, you gain an additional Warrior class level, which can be assigned to the primary target or allocated to multiple targets, so long as the total is equal to your class level - 8.
Raid Tactics: This ability affects allies within 60 feet that can see and hear you. Affected allies ignore penalties from the confused, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, shaken, and sickened conditions for the duration of the inspiration. These conditions are not removed, but they have no effect on creatures under the effects of the raid tactics. If you affect multiple allies, each round you maintain the raid tactics, you expend two rounds’ worth of bardic inspiration. This inspiration supersedes the Warmaster’s battle tactic of the same name from the Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games).
Sonic Might (Minstrel only): You can imbue your bardic spells with damaging sonics. Use of this inspiration is accomplished as part of your spellcasting, but requires you to both sing and play an instrument. Any spell with the [sonic] descriptor you cast using this inspiration deals 1d6 additional points of sonic damage per spell level to those affected. This costs a number of rounds of bardic inspiration equal to the level of the spell. This inspiration supersedes the Lyric Thaumaturge prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Mage.
Spellsong, Canaith: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 4th rather than 1st.
CLI INSPIRATIONS
Countering Tactics: A bard can learn to counter the advantages foes gain by superior planning, morale, or position. Each round of the countering tactics, affected opponents gain no benefit from insight bonuses, morale bonuses, luck bonuses, or bardic inspiration; cannot flank; and suffer a –4 penalty to all attacks of opportunity (Intuition save negates). A creature you fail to affect with a use of countering tactics remains immune to any further use for 24 hours. This supersedes the Warmaster’s battle tactic of the same name from the Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games).
Improved Countersong: A minstrel of 12th level or higher who knows the countersong inspiration can learn to expand its effectiveness. Each round, make a Perform (music) check. Any creature within 30 feet of you (including you) that is affected by a mind-affecting magical attack may use your Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the improved countersong is already under the effect of a non-instantaneous mind-affecting spell or ability, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the improved countersong, but it must use your skill check result for the save. Improved countersong does not work on effects that don't allow saves.
Rally: A bard of either type of 12th level or above can rally allies in a 30-foot radius burst. Those affected gain 1d6 temporary hit points per 3 class levels you possess, which last until lost or until you stop this inspiration, whichever comes first. Each ally may also make one saving throw against any one effect it currently suffers which could have been prevented with a successful saving throw (with the same save DC as the original saving throw); on a successful save the effect ends. This supersedes the Warmaster’s class feature of the same name from the Adventurer’s Handbook (Super Genius Games).
Spellsong, Cli: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 5th rather than 1st.
ANSTRUTH INSPIRATIONS
Song of Surrender (Minstrel only): Affected nemies within 30 ft. drop everything held and fall prone unless they successfully save vs. Will. Those affected lose their Dex bonuses to AC and do not move, but are not helpless. They remain prone until you stop the inspiration. Those not affected need not save again unless they leave and then re-enter the affected area. Song of surrender is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability that relies on audible components. It emulates the Buccaneer’s “mass surrender” variant class feature, from Pirates of the Inner Sea.
Spellsong, Anstruth: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 6th rather than 1st.
OLLAMH INSPIRATIONS
Spellsong, Ollamh: As fochlucan spellsong, but the spell level is 7th rather than 1st.
Upon reflection, I've gone with the "spellsong" idea above and just run with it. Among the various sources, there are spells that do pretty much anything you'd care to name, so the simplest way to handle bardic inspiration is as follows:
Bardic Inspiration (Su)
To conduct a bardic inspiration, choose any 1st level bard spell you know that affects one or more creatures. When you use the inspiration, the effects of that spell occur as a supernatural ability, with a saving throw DC equal to 10 + half your class level + your Charisma modifier, and lasting as long as you pay the cost to maintain the inspiration. This does not use up a spell slot. Inspirations affecting an area always use your square as their point of origin. If the effects are beneficial and apply to multiple targets (or an area), your enemies are excluded from the effects; if the effects are harmful and apply to multiple targets (or an area), you and your allies are excluded. If the spell normally affects only a single target, you can affect multiple creatures by multiplying the daily inspiration cost by the total number of targets. Spells with a range of “personal” cannot be modified to affect multiple creatures.
As you gain levels, you are able to use higher-level spells as inspirations (+1 spell level per 3 class levels you possess, as shown in Table 1).
Starting an inspiration is a standard action at 1st level, but becomes quicker as the bard gains levels (see below). Once started, bardic inspiration can be maintained each round using the bardic performance ability (see above) as a free action. Changing an inspiration from one effect to another requires you to stop the previous effect and start a new one. A bardic inspiration cannot be disrupted except by another bard using the countersong ability (q.v.). It ends immediately if you are killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a bardic performance action to maintain it each round.
Targets must be able to hear you for the inspiration to have any effect, and chanted (skald) inspirations are language-dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic inspiration. If you fail this check, the attempt still counts against your daily limit.
Also give "inspire courage" to all bards at 1st level as an additional inspiration, and you're set. The total page count of the bard is reduced by 11 pages, and another sub-system is eliminated.
Watched Yojimbo and Sword of Doom and 13 Assassins recently, and wanted to see if I could "build" a proper movie samurai using the Kirthfinder fighter -- one who demoralizes hordes of mooks and cuts down anyone who attacks him. I'm pretty pleased with the results; the only bummer is the low AC, especially when offering Robilar's Gambit.
Samurai Hatamoto (CR 10)
Init +3 (+6 in surprise round); Senses blindsense 25 ft., sixth sense +3, threat assessment, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge; Perception +14
Aura banner
Languages Common
AC 24, touch 15, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, +3 dodge, +1 deflection, +1 natural, +8 armor)
hp 98 (11 HD; LW 49/HW 24)
Hero Points grit 2/day
Resist bravery (2 steps)
Fort +11, Ref +10, Int +5, Will +11; mettle
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 keen bastard sword +19/+19/+19 (1d10+12/15-20) or Power Attack +16/+16/+16 (1d10+21/15-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +12/+12/+12 (1d8+3/x3)
Base Atk +11; CMB +14; CMD 28
Special Atks exotic weapon familiarity, iaijutsu focus, personal weapon (bastard sword), riposte, Robilar’s Gambit, shatter defenses (+4d6), weapon training (heavy blades)
Attributes Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
SQ favored class (fighter)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat ExpertiseB, Combat Reflexes, Critical FocusB, Daunting Strike, Deft OpportunistB, Dispelling StrikeB, DodgeB, LeadershipB, No RetreatB, Power Attack, Shatter Defenses, Sixth Sense, Staredown, Vital StrikeB, Weapon FinesseB
Skills Bluff (11/+18), Diplomacy (11/+18), Endurance (11/+16), Handle Animal (11/+16), Knowledge (warfare) (11/+14), Perception (11/+14)
Numen 12,750; Possessions +1 katana (2,000), masterwork wakizashi (300), masterwork dagger (300), masterwork composite longbow (300); +1 lamellar armor (1,000) of resistance +2 (4,000), deflection +1 (2,000), and an additional -2 to armor check penalty (800); amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000)
Is the most recent version still at the site linked to in the first post? Because it appears to have not been updated since 2012...
No. The most recent document was emailed out by request about two months ago. I'm pretty sure TOZ has real-life stuff that takes priority over updating linked docs, and honestly I prefer the whole thing to be along the lines of "I want to use this in my home game, too, can you hook me up personally?" as opposed to "here's this thing on the web that you can get."
No. The most recent document was emailed out by request about two months ago.
Ah. Can I... request it?
No. The most recent document was emailed out by request about two months ago.Ah. Can I... request it?
Absolutely! If you post your email address (replacing the @ with "at" to discourage sniffers) in a spoiler, I'll be happy to send you one.
Absolutely! If you post your email address (replacing the @ with "at" to discourage sniffers) in a spoiler, I'll be happy to send you one.
Eeexcellent.
Sent!
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I'm a bit of a latecomer to this party, so if things have already been addressed in this thread, feel free to just point me to where it was discussed. With that said, I have some minor points:
Why does being dazzled give a -4 penalty to my ability to hear things? This could be fixed with the wording "In addition, it applies a -4 penalty to Perception checks made to see." Or perhaps "to visual Perception checks."
Why does a ring of protection make it harder to touch me, but not affect how difficult I am to grapple? Grappling involves touching, right?
(Taken from the thread about grappling) You seem to have retained the core mechanics for Pathfinder's grapple system. CMD should not be used to resist attempts to escape a grapple. Yes, it's convenient. It also happens to make no sense whatsoever. Here is a short list of things that make you better at holding onto an opponent in a grapple:
- Rings of protection
- The Dodge feat
- That one ioun stone that gives an insight bonus to AC
- Having cover
- An ally using Aid Another to improve your AC (but not your attack rolls or grapple checks!)
Yes, it's a core Pathfinder mechanic, not a change you made, so it may or may not be something you are interested in fixing. But given how thorough an overhaul you gave to other areas, I think it is at least worth considering.
Your note about the renaming of "mojo" amuses me greatly.
Have you ever had a player try to create custom items with your rules? It seems to me that allowing players to get massively discounted weapons that only provide attack or damage bonuses would be really, really abusable. Only 7,500 for a weapon that gives +5 attack bonus? Yes, please!
Why does being dazzled give a -4 penalty to my ability to hear things? This could be fixed with the wording "In addition, it applies a -4 penalty to Perception checks made to see." Or perhaps "to visual Perception checks."
Perception is a catch-all abstraction for "sensing stuff." Much as we don't have wounds to the leg, shoulder, right biceps, etc. -- just "hit points" -- by the same token it's not important to separate visual vs. auditory vs. olfactory, 99% of the time. Yes, I totally agree that it's "less realistic." It's also vastly more conducive to smooth game play.
Part of the play testing was to see which changes, while asthetically pleasing from the standpoint of good simulation, were too "fiddly" to really be worth it, when the dice hit the table. For us, "-4 to sight-based checks, but only on a Wednesday, but not if you own the Egg of Flumph" was generally in that category.
YMMV -- if your table is a lot more detail-oriented with that kind of thing, by all means separate it out.
Re: discounted weapons and other big numerical bonuses, up-thread we talked about Jess Door's fighter Sheraviel. She used every way to stack AC bonuses, to the point where she was largely un-hittable by 6th level or so. NPCs took to addressing her as "Sheraviel of the Impenetrable Guard," and would ask her to teach them her style. It became part of the character's legend.
On the other hand, when attacking her, there was really no reason not to use Power Attack, because 5% hit and 5% to hit are the same. After the first round, more intelligent opponents would target her with spells, knowing that her squishier companions were easier sword fodder. And eventually a dumb ogre barbarian connected with one of those Power Attacks and confirmed the crit (Aid Another and Critical Focus helps there), and took her from full to -15 hp in one shot.
The guy with the cheap +5 to attack at low levels will seem like the ultimate swordmaster to mooks, and if he single-handedly slays six orcs in six rounds instead of 12, I'm OK with that. But he's still vulnerable to missile fire and spells, and when monsters with DR show up, he's going to have to start shelling out for actual full-out enhancement bonuses, or else start burning feats or talents to cope with that. (And simple miss chances from concealment quickly make it irrelevant if he gets +5 to hit or +50.)
TL/DR: There are lots of ways to stack up really big numbers. Overall, that leads to combat playing more like "rock-paper-scissors" than like "rock-em-sock-em-robots." If that's not to your group's preference, by all means use the existing rules in preference to these. (That said, if you manage to make something that's seriously broken, please post it here so we can look at it!)
I think I prefer cutting down on the bard stuff. There was definitely a lot to read there between the lore and inspirations. They're still left with plenty of music related things, I think, to keep the idea behind the class intact without them.
And speaking of builds, I will say, I'm looking forward to one I've worked on for an upcoming game. Monk/wizard, which is something I'd have never even dreamed of in normal PF rules. One thing I've been finding as I've statted this guy up is just how nasty you can get with strike feats for binding the enemies up in status effects, which I think is great for the martial classes. Just looking at a few levels (the game probably won't go much past 15 or so), he seems pretty good.
Male high elven monk 1
Init +4; Senses Perception +3
Languages Celestial, Common, Gnoll (spoken only), Goblin, High Elvish, Orcish, Sylvan
AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 insight)
hp 12 (1d10 + 2)
Fort +4, Ref +6, Int +0, Will +1
Spd 30 ft.
Melee falchion +5 (2d4/18-20), or falchion +3/+3 (2d4/18-20), or unarmed +5 (1d6/19-20), or unarmed +3/+3 (1d6/19-20)
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 23
Special Atks exotic weapon familiarity, sickening strike
Attributes Str 11, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 7
SQ enlightened fist, favored class (monk)
Feats Canny Defense, Dodge, Serenity, Sickening Strike, Skill Focus (Concentration), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Skills Concentration +6, Disable Device +9, Escape Artist +8, Knowledge (Linguistics) +5, Knowledge (Lore) +5, Perception +3, Sleight of Hand +9, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +8
Numen 0; Possessions falchion, silk rope 50', assorted outdoor survival items
Male high elven monk 3/abjurer 2
Init +4; Senses Perception +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Giant (spoken only), Gnoll, Goblin, High Elvish, Orcish, Sylvan
AC 24, touch 20, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +4 Dex, +2 dodge, +4 insight, +2 natural)
hp 38 (3d10 + 2d6 + 10)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Int +5, Will +6
DR 1/-; Resist energy (chosen each day) 7
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 falchion +10 (2d4+4/18-20), +1 falchion +8/+8 (2d4+4/18-20), unarmed +9 (2d6+3/19-20), unarmed +7/+7 (2d6+3/19-20)
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 28
Special Atks blinding strike, ki attack, sickening strike, swift abjuration, weapon form
Wizard Spells Prepared (Spell capacity 3rd)
2nd -- mirror image, resist energy
1st -- mage armor, shield, shield
0th -- detect magic, light, resistance
Attributes Str 11, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 7
SQ enlightened fist, favored class (monk), iron skin
Feats Blinding Strike, Canny Defense, Dodge, Serenity, Sickening Strike, Skill Focus (Concentration), Somatic Weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Skills Concentration +15, Disable Device +13, Escape Artist +12, Knowledge (Linguistics) +12, Knowledge (Lore) +12, Perception +7, Sleight of Hand +13, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +12
Numen 9000; Possessions +1 falchion (2000), amulet of +2 armor and +1 damage reduction (2900), +2 ring of resistance (4000)
Male high elven monk 5/abjurer 5
Init +6; Senses Perception +7
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Giant (spoken only), Gnoll, Goblin, High Elvish, Orcish, Sylvan, Undercommon
AC 28, touch 23, flat-footed 20 (+2 armor, +6 Dex, +2 dodge, +5 insight, +3 natural)
hp 38 (3d10 + 2d6 + 10)
Fort +10, Ref +14, Int +9, Will +10
DR 3/-; Resist energy (chosen each day) 10
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 shocking acidic falchion +15 (2d4+2d6+12/18-20), +2 shocking acidic falchion +13/+13/+8/+8 (2d4+2d6+12/18-20), unarmed +12 (2d6+8/19-20), unarmed +10/+10/+5/+5 (2d6+8/19-20)
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 31
Special Atks blinding strike, ki attack, sickening strike, swift abjuration, two-weapon strike, weapon form
Wizard Spells Prepared (Spell Capacity 7th)
4th -- stoneskin, stoneshape
3rd -- ablative sphere, dispel magic, haste
2nd -- mirror image, resist energy
1st -- mage armor, shield, shield
0th -- detect magic, light, resistance
Attributes Str 11, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 7
SQ enlightened fist, favored class (monk), iron skin
Feats Blinding Strike, Canny Defense, Dodge, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Serenity, Sickening Strike, Skill Focus (Concentration), Somatic Weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Strike, Weapon Finesse
Skills Concentration +20, Disable Device +18, Escape Artist +17, Knowledge (Linguistics) +17, Knowledge (Lore) +17, Perception +12, Sleight of Hand +18, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +17
Numen 49,000; Possessions +2 shocking acidic falchion (16,000), amulet of +4 armor and +3 damage reduction (14,100), +3 ring of resistance (9000), vest of +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence (8000)
These include the ki strike bonus where appropriate, as I'm planning on leaving a first level spell unspent for the vast majority of the time (unless I really need that extra shield for some reason).
*Edit* And if you have updated the pdf since the last one sent out those couple months ago, I'd love another copy.
If not, obviously don't worry about it.
Kirth, I have been looking through the skills section (slowly) and found a few things.
P 1 The ranger’s free skill ranks are now Endurance, Handle Animal, Perception, Planar Sense, Stealth, and Survival
P1 Sixth Sense is now a feat rather than just a rogue class ability.
P1 The last sentence of the first paragraph should now read something like “8th level and not be eligible to gain the sixth sense feat’s benefits”
P2 I would propose changing the acrobatics wording to “narrow surfaces, rooftops, ship rigging, trees, or uneven or unstable ground without falling.” Since you already included types of forest in your table (with forest type getting more difficult as the tree density decreases) I think you intended that to mean tree traveling (but the dense forest, medium forest, sparse forest is never explained in the table so I could be wrong). I would also then change the table heading to surface width or terrain type. The terrain types I would add (in addition to the forest types) is travelling across flat rooftops, travelling across slanted rooftops, travelling across floating objects (logs, alligators, row boats) and ship rigging.
P3: I believe you wanted to remove slow fall and water walking from the task DC table since they now fall under class skill benefits.
P3: Does the nimble moves ability apply to water walking and wind stepping (i.e. with a acrobatics skill of 15 you do need to make a check if you are only water walking across 25 feet of water)? I would suspect it would not apply but it should be spelled out.
P3: For wind step, something similar to the following clause should be added (just like the water walking section) “if you do not reach solid ground by the end of this movement, you immediately fall unless you succeed at another check.”
Finally, "editor in chief" is fine with me, I would be honored.
Those are all very good catches -- thanks.
Once I get done pruning overall page count some more, I'll move on to revising the skills section -- it's the one part of the rules I'm still the least happy about, mostly because it got the least amount of attention early on.
Okay,
I will hold off posting more skill edits till you are ready. Skills are a long document so it will take me a while to finish the whole document anyways.
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Had to put my game on hiatus for a summer internship. Missing playing Kirthfinder quite a lot. The erratta helps keep the pang at bay, but I can't wait to put these changes into play!
Wish I could help more! I haven't found a group here yet, either, although I did get to meet JAM412 last week -- a very cool guy who would be awesome to game with if only the roads here were not so unbelievably fouled up. (He's only a few miles way, but since it's the other side of the tunnel, he might as well be in Jakarta, most times of day.)
Sweet!
I like the idea of Bardic Spellsong, but it has me a little concerned. It looks like you made the different options available to Bards simpler, but effectively cut their room for such options by maybe a third. Personally, I like choosing spells known that I can't mimic through inspirations known.
Unless I'm reading Spellsong wrong and Bards would still keep track of spells known and inspirations known separately.
The way I have it now, at 1st level you get inspire courage. And you can also use any of your 1st level spells known as an inspiration.
At every 3 class levels thereafter, the level of spell increases by 1.
You don't track them separately -- your spells known ARE your inspirations known. Yes, this cuts the total # of spells/inspirations by 6 over the course of 20 levels. However, inspiration is a LOT more versatile insofar as you can use ANY spell of "X" level or lower as an inspiration. I think this opens up some interesting resource management situations ("Do I haste the party with my remaining rounds of inspiration while casting offensive spells at the baddies? Or haste one guy and then hold up a mass debuff on the enemy?").
And, of course, you can now pick up an extra spell/inspiration potentially every other level, by means of the Expanded Arcana feat -- whereas before an extra inspiration set you back one of your bardic lore choices.
Posting to get a set of your rules: ragoftag1995@gmail.com
Okay, I don't have Word, is there a copy or version I can get into with Open Office?
@Bwang -- If TOZ's mailing doesn't reach you for some reason, please let me know.
Kirth,
As I said on a different thread, You'd be 100x more effective then any one designer up there
*sour face* that was my idea for pathfinder 2.0
Sorry, Paizo and I have conflicting game design goals.
Or, if you prefer, I have an "agenda."
I like their adventures an awful lot (the Age of Worms AP is what convinced me to switch to 3.5, after years of not playing any D&D system), and I'm glad they're keeping the OGL alive and kicking, but when it comes to mechanics to realize the goal of actually telling the stories in the APs? Not a lot of common ground there.
I'm happy to develop Kirthfinder as a series of patches, for people with like playstyle -- and this way it's not "official," and they don't have to pay me, so everyone wins!
Sent!
Hi kirth. Could you mail me a copy please. Been looking at houseruling some stuff on and off for a year and the thread looks good.
Thanks in advance
For anyone who has requested a PDF in the last week or so:
If it's OK, I'd like to wait for a bit and then send out one mass mailing of the bookmarked PDF to all the new people requesting it -- it's easier on me that way than sending one email a day forever.
For anyone who has requested a PDF in the last week or so:
If it's OK, I'd like to wait for a bit and then send out one mass mailing of the bookmarked PDF to all the new people requesting it -- it's easier on me that way than sending one email a day forever.
so sayeth the kirth.
The funny thing is that I'm seriously not even very good at this. Frank Trollman was a better game designer half a decade ago than I am now.
I'm willing to look at things honestly and objectively, which I guess puts me ahead of people who don't, but that's as far as it goes.
Kirthfinder is totally idiosyncratic. All I've done is created a series of adjustments that let me play the game that I want to play -- if other people get use out of that, too, then I'm happy to share those ideas with them.
Just an odd thought: colors to denote dropped rules, changes and totaly new material.
Still can't get it into Open office...
Kirth,
Just out of curiosity, I noticed a couple of feats that granted enhancement bonuses to ability scores and found that the physical ones improved based on a skill, but the charisma one needed to be taken multiple times with no skill association. Was this intended or are these two evolutions of the feat system that got into the same pdf?
Kirth,
Just out of curiosity, I noticed a couple of feats that granted enhancement bonuses to ability scores and found that the physical ones improved based on a skill, but the charisma one needed to be taken multiple times with no skill association. Was this intended or are these two evolutions of the feat system that got into the same pdf?
Entirely intentional -- until (if and when, that is) I can rework skills so that they approach spells, spellcasting still trumps pretty much everything else -- all I did was slow down the inevitable. Which means that buffing physical stats is less valuable than buffing spellcasting stats -- most especially Charisma.
Likewise, you'll notice there's no feat that boosts Int at all, because Open Minded already boosts skill points, and that's as far as I wanted to go in that direction.
Just an odd thought: colors to denote dropped rules, changes and totaly new material.
I thought about that -- it's a great idea, but I nixed it because (1) it would be a lot of work I didn't feel like doing, and (2) often things are a mix of changes, old material, AND new material, all in the same rule.
Re: Open Office, I have no idea what that is. Did you not get the PDF that TOZ sent?
Kirth,
Just out of curiosity, I noticed a couple of feats that granted enhancement bonuses to ability scores and found that the physical ones improved based on a skill, but the charisma one needed to be taken multiple times with no skill association. Was this intended or are these two evolutions of the feat system that got into the same pdf?Entirely intentional -- until (if and when, that is) I can rework skills so that they approach spells, spellcasting still trumps pretty much everything else -- all I did was slow down the inevitable. Which means that buffing physical stats is less valuable than buffing spellcasting stats -- most especially Charisma.
Likewise, you'll notice there's no feat that boosts Int at all, because Open Minded already boosts skill points, and that's as far as I wanted to go in that direction.
I can see where your coming from, though it makes the charismatic mundane even less appealing than before.
If you ever come up with an interesting skill alteration I would love to see the changes. I suppose attaching spell like qualities to enormous ranks would be too much a band aid?
Perception is a catch-all abstraction for "sensing stuff." Much as we don't have wounds to the leg, shoulder, right biceps, etc. -- just "hit points" -- by the same token it's not important to separate visual vs. auditory vs. olfactory, 99% of the time. Yes, I totally agree that it's "less realistic." It's also vastly more conducive to smooth game play.
Part of the play testing was to see which changes, while asthetically pleasing from the standpoint of good simulation, were too "fiddly" to really be worth it, when the dice hit the table. For us, "-4 to sight-based checks, but only on a Wednesday, but not if you own the Egg of Flumph" was generally in that category.
YMMV -- if your table is a lot more detail-oriented with that kind of thing, by all means separate it out.
I understand the concern. But... all things considered, your system generally prioritizes options and versatility much more highly than simplicity, based on what I've seen. For example, your Equipment chapter is one of the most complicated renditions of nonmagical items I've seen in a while. Don't get me wrong - this isn't intended as a criticism right now. But given how far you've gone with other things, differentiating seeing from hearing seems like an odd place to draw the line and say that it's a bridge too far. If it works for your group, though, then go for it.
TL/DR: There are lots of ways to stack up really big numbers. Overall, that leads to combat playing more like "rock-paper-scissors" than like "rock-em-sock-em-robots." If that's not to your group's preference, by all means use the existing rules in preference to these. (That said, if you manage to make something that's seriously broken, please post it here so we can look at it!)
I actually like the analogy to rock-paper scissors here. Both a "typical" melee DPR character who uses the standard magic item buying rules and a character who minmaxes his weapons to the Nth degree occupy the same "place" in the Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy. No matter how much damage the fighter does, he still can get nuked by spells, and he can still probably beat a rogue in a straight fight. No matter what, a rock is still a rock. That's not my objection.
My objection lies in that it lets the rock kick the butt of all the other rocks. A "typical" character at, say, 8th level would have 27,000 gp worth of equipment at par. If he uses somewhere around a third of his wealth for his weapon, he can have +2 to attack and damage (8,000 gp for a +2 weapon). In contrast, a character using your revised pricing and getting just the attack and damage bonuses could easily come by a weapon that gives +4 to attack and +3 damage (7,500 gp). In exchange he trades... essentially nothing.
Is this overpowered? Well, an extra +2 to attack and +1 damage isn't going to ruin a campaign. But it really isn't fair, either. It's an artificial advantage granted to anyone who digs through the rules and finds out that they can pay less for more.
I would call both of those things less significant than the bizarre nature of the grapple rules, though.
Entirely intentional -- until (if and when, that is) I can rework skills so that they approach spells, spellcasting still trumps pretty much everything else -- all I did was slow down the inevitable.
I think the better solution here is "make spellcasting not trump everything else", not "pump up skills to crazy levels".
I understand the concern. But... all things considered, your system generally prioritizes options and versatility much more highly than simplicity, based on what I've seen. For example, your Equipment chapter is one of the most complicated renditions of nonmagical items I've seen in a while. Don't get me wrong - this isn't intended as a criticism right now. But given how far you've gone with other things, differentiating seeing from hearing seems like an odd place to draw the line and say that it's a bridge too far.
I see where you're coming from, but there's an important distinction: the line gets drawn at "in play" vs. "while leveling up/between sessions." One of the goals was to give a lot more "meat" to chew on when designing characrers, because most of the players were veterans who really enjoyed that sort of thing. At the same time, we didn't want to make the game itself too clunky when actually playing it.
That said, 7500 mojo should more or less equal 7500 mojo; I agree there 100%.
To provide some background, I started off scaling attack bonus a lot more steeply, always starting with 300 gp for +1 (per the masterwork weapon rules), but getting up to crazy numbers for +5 when I did things like bonus cubed or whatever. Ultimately, though, I still wanted +N to attack +N damage +N hardness/hp + N damage reduction penetration to equal 2000 * N^2, and fiddled with the numbers until I got that. I have absolutely no problem with revisiting the distribution of the components(short of devaluing DR penetration too much), so if you see a more equitable spread, please do let me know what you suggest.
I think the better solution here is "make spellcasting not trump everything else", not "pump up skills to crazy levels".
That's been the source of endless discussion and argument, of course: do you knock casters down to everyone else's level, or do you elevate the mundanes to the "crazy levels" that the casters already occupy? The former is easy to do: make all casters either 3.5 edition sorcerers or favored souls, then nerf the hell out of the remaining offending spells, and voila. (Or just play E6, for that matter.) The latter approach is a lot more difficult to get right, which in all honesty is part of its appeal. "Can we keep crazy-powerful casters and still have a balanced game?" And the jury's still out on that -- sadly, none of our 3 playtest campaigns ever got above 9th level.