I see where you're coming from, but there's an important distinction: the line gets drawn at "in play" vs. "while leveling up/between sessions." One of the goals was to give a lot more "meat" to chew on when designing characrers, because most of the players were veterans who really enjoyed that sort of thing. At the same time, we didn't want to make the game itself too clunky when actually playing it.
See, I definitely get that. There should be a major distinction between "in play" complexity and "between session" complexity. It sounds to me like you are mostly testing with PF veterans, while I have mostly run for players new to D&D/PF, so it's not surprising that we have a different approach to this sort of thing.
That said, 7500 mojo should more or less equal 7500 mojo; I agree there 100%.
To provide some background, I started off scaling attack bonus a lot more steeply, always starting with 300 gp for +1 (per the masterwork weapon rules), but getting up to crazy numbers for +5 when I did things like bonus cubed or whatever. Ultimately, though, I still wanted +N to attack +N damage +N hardness/hp + N damage reduction penetration to equal 2000 * N^2, and fiddled with the numbers until I got that. I have absolutely no problem with revisiting the distribution of the components(short of devaluing DR penetration too much), so if you see a more equitable spread, please do let me know what you suggest.
Makes sense. There is some value in being able to customize your bonuses a little more. It is just a very difficult trick to pull off, since "overcoming DR" doesn't matter until you hit a +3 weapon. That means that you are effectively paying for nothing until you hit a +3-equivalent for overcoming DR. In other words, with the current system, every single +2 weapon in the game should be cheaper than a "core" +2 weapon because no one sane would make a weapon that was treated as being +2 for the purpose of overcoming DR. This problem exists regardless of the precise numbers that are used.
I tried building a system that allows you to custom-assign DR, but I couldn't find anything that worked. The best I can come up with is a system that allows you to custom-assign everything except DR:
Attack bonus: Bonus squared * 800
Damage bonus: Bonus squared * 800
Hardness: Bonus squared * 50
HP (per +5): Bonus squared * 50
The weapon's effective enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming DR is equal to (attack bonus + damage bonus)/2. Thus, the most efficient way to overcome DR is to keep attack bonus and damage bonus equal. This naturally encourages weapons to stay relatively close to the "normal" method, but allows customization.
EDIT: I forgot that you changed the scaling for which bonuses penetrate DR. That solves the problem I mentioned above about why any weapon would have a +2 to overcome DR. My bad!
With that in mind, it is possible to build a system that includes DR in its customization options. I think the issue is just that the prices are out of balance. I'd propose the following distribution:
Attack bonus: Bonus squared * 500
Damage bonus: Bonus squared * 500
DR: Bonus squared * 500
Hardness (per +2): Bonus squared * 150
HP (per +10): Bonus squared * 100
This feels more balanced to me. It also has the added benefit of being very easy to do math with!
That's been the source of endless discussion and argument, of course: do you knock casters down to everyone else's level, or do you elevate the mundanes to the "crazy levels" that the casters already occupy? The former is easy to do: make all casters either 3.5 edition sorcerers or favored souls, then nerf the hell out of the remaining offending spells, and voila. (Or just play E6, for that matter.) The latter approach is a lot more difficult to get right, which in all honesty is part of its appeal. "Can we keep crazy-powerful casters and still have a balanced game?" And the jury's still out on that -- sadly, none of our 3 playtest campaigns ever got above 9th level.
Having spend an absurd amount of time building and adjusting the spell system, I think you are dramatically underestimating the difficulty of balancing casters against mundanes without taking away from what makes them feel unique, powerful, and special. I don't think you can ramp up skills to match spells unless you essentially let skills emulate spells (which you currently do with the rogue).
Vadskye,
I'll revisit the distribution a bit more when I get a chance. 500 isn't so far off from 300 that I'd cry at the difference, although I think damage bonuses should be worth less than attack bonuses, all things considered (like maybe half or a third, just scaling it based on the assumption of a character using Power Attack). As an aside, I appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts.
Re: buffing mundanes, I honestly really like how the rogue turned out, and I hope to eventually play around a little bit more with the fighter, looking at Burrough's John Carter novels for inspiration -- Carter influences the world because he eventually comes to control its entire military apparatus (The Warlord of Mars), and powerful enemies who see him fight throw their swords at his feet and become his ally (A Swordsman of Mars). That's stuff that affects plot at the level of teleportation and scrying, but it's nonmagic and class-appropriate for the fighter.
Vadskye,
I'll revisit the distribution a bit more when I get a chance. 500 isn't so far off from 300 that I'd cry at the difference, although I think damage bonuses should be worth less than attack bonuses, all things considered (like maybe half or a third, just scaling it based on the assumption of a character using Power Attack). As an aside, I appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts.
Makes sense. I think a third is too generous. Unfortunately, the numbers get a bit only if you try to say "half" without messing around with the other numbers; that maps to *666 for attack and *333 for damage. Maybe reduce the costs of HP/hardness to make it fit. And thank you!
Re: buffing mundanes, I honestly really like how the rogue turned out, and I hope to eventually play around a little bit more with the fighter, looking at Burrough's John Carter novels for inspiration -- Carter influences the world because he eventually comes to control its entire military apparatus (The Warlord of Mars), and powerful enemies who see him fight throw their swords at his feet and become his ally (A Swordsman of Mars). That's stuff that affects plot at the level of teleportation and scrying, but it's nonmagic and class-appropriate for the fighter.
Be careful here. I understand what you're thinking of, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion. Yes, a substantial part of John Carter's power comes from the way the world reacts to him - and a high level fighter should command a similar respect. However, this isn't because he's a high level fighter; it's because he's a high level fighter. Any character of the same legendary caliber should turn NPC heads, whether they earned that fame through fighting prowess or arcane mastery. That's an important part of high level campaigns, in my view. After 16th level or so, you are the kind of person that can topple kingdoms and make kings bow. That's awesome. Don't make it a class feature - you'll actually be limiting the world much more than you expand it.
Be careful here. I understand what you're thinking of, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion. Yes, a substantial part of John Carter's power comes from the way the world reacts to him - and a high level fighter should command a similar respect. However, this isn't because he's a high level fighter; it's because he's a high level fighter. Any character of the same legendary caliber should turn NPC heads, whether they earned that fame through fighting prowess or arcane mastery. That's an important part of high level campaigns, in my view. After 16th level or so, you are the kind of person that can topple kingdoms and make kings bow. That's awesome. Don't make it a class feature -...
Good points that bear thinking about. My reservation is that spells ALREADY give you world-altering powers; if they give it to you twice (as you posit -- once for having them, and again for people reacting to them) then the high-level caster will always be twice the non-caster, barring some other means of evening the disparity. And make no mistake, some evening is definitely needed, IMHO.
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Re: discounted weapons and other big numerical bonuses, up-thread we talked about Jess Door's fighter Sheraviel... eventually a dumb ogre barbarian connected with one of those Power Attacks and confirmed the crit (Aid Another and Critical Focus helps there), and took her from full to -15 hp in one shot.
Stupid ogres...
::disdainful sniff::
Stupid ogres...
::disdainful sniff::
Doubly so for me, because having Sheraviel (the party leader) temporarily as an NPC meant that I could get away with whatever kind of stoopid railroads the AP was calling for, just by pretending Sheraviel was willing to follow them. Without her there, Cadogan & the others had a tendency to just wander off and ignore the plot line. But if I'd left her out of the "random target determination die," Derek would have left the game in response to my "disgusting DM-bestowed plot immunity."
Either way, though, I missed the hell out of her personality, without the right player running her :(
Good points that bear thinking about. My reservation is that spells ALREADY give you world-altering powers; if they give it to you twice (as you posit -- once for having them, and again for people reacting to them) then the high-level caster will always be twice the non-caster, barring some other means of evening the disparity. And make no mistake, some evening is definitely needed, IMHO.
Yes, but think about the implications of the argument you are making. You're saying that, because an 18th level fighter doesn't have world-altering powers, people should treat him as if he does. Likewise, because an 18th level wizard does have world-altering powers, people should treat him as if he doesn't.
See the problem here?
See the problem here?
Yes -- but I think that's attaching too much realism to a game with dragons and elfs. Yeah, I get that simulation is important to people, but if that means the game is unplayable, then it may need to take a back seat to expedience.
Regarding good high level/lower level leader of men talents, I'd suggest looking at Super Genius Game's War Master class.
I'd looked at that when I was rewriting the fighter, and snagged some of those goodies as talents/feats/bard inspiration, but at the end of the day they still don't let him do anything beyond his immediate presence, so yeah, not quite what I think is needed.
I dont even understand simulationist sentiment really. A level twenty fighter is not even human by any reasonable measure anymore. If you are routinely engaging enemies that consist of greater daemons and such, and you are winning, you are not mundane and should be percieved by the populous as such.
If you ever get a chance, look at berserk. The main character is what I see as a fighter. He makes the other warriors look like children.
As a quick fix, shift the price for enhancement bonuses to attack to 400 gp x bonus squared, and reduce damage bonuses to 200 gp x bonus squared to make up. That's not at all right yet -- attack bonuses should still cost more, I think -- but getting them where I want them will take some more playing with my spreadsheets, and this will do for now as a stop-gap.
If you ever get a chance, look at berserk.
If that's an Amime/Manga, sorry, I can't. I freely acknowledge that the genre(s) has a lot to offer, and I don't disparage it at all in and of itself (other than the creepy schoolgirl ones, that is)... but that said, the art styles generally make me want to put my own eyes out.
I think one of the reasons why the John Carter "I'm so awesome my enemies want to work for me" abilities are a bit jarring is that they largely come out of nowhere, rather than being the culmination of an ability that improves as you level up.
That's a nice thought that definitely bears more thinking on my part -- thanks!
Yes -- but I think that's attaching too much realism to a game with dragons and elfs. Yeah, I get that simulation is important to people, but if that means the game is unplayable, then it may need to take a back seat to expedience.
Yes, a 20th level fighter is akin to a demigod among men. He is capable of amazing feats, and can defeat powerful foes (including mighty daemons). He deserves respect and adoration from the population and deference from mighty rulers.
A 20th level barbarian, paladin, and (maybe) ranger can do the same thing. Surely they deserve equivalent respect.
A 20th bard or rogue is ludicrously skillful. Some of their abilities can seem supernatural.
A 20th wizard can also do that. He can also fly, explode people with his mind, transport people across continents or planes in the blink of an eye, and generally rewrite reality to suit his whims. If the population doesn't like him immediately, he can probably whip out a spell to compel their obedience anyway with little effort. If a 20th level fighter is akin to a demigod, a 20th level wizard is more like a god.
You look at that and say that the wizard is too powerful. And I agree! The wizard is obviously more powerful and versatile. Your solution is that, if everyone pretends that the fighter is more powerful, this makes him more powerful. This is true. From a certain perspective, this "balances" the situation.
However, it also requires the entire population to believe something which is factually inaccurate. This necessarily implies that every single NPC is either stupid or insane. Yes, it's a simpler fix than actually balancing the two classes. But I don't want that anywhere near my campaign world.
Yes, it's a simpler fix than actually balancing the two classes. But I don't want that anywhere near my campaign world.
I assume you feel similarly about the Intimidate skill and the Leadership feat, then? Surely it's nonsensical that certain people inspire far more fear or loyalty than other (more powerful and charismatic and/or threatening) people solely because they chose to hire some guys or learn to act mean, instead of learning to swing a sword harder?
When subjected to the kind of standards you're holding it to, the whole game system breaks down. But people accept the rest of it because that's the status quo.
That said, your exact complaint is a common one, but no one has ever proposed a replacement -- any ability providing the fighter with the kind of narrative power that the casters enjoy, short of making him a full caster. And if you say, "that's impossible," that's OK -- ultimate classes and/or E6 and/or totally unbalanced systems will still work for you -- but I intend to keep looking.
This necessarily implies that every single NPC is either stupid or insane.
Only if you fluff it that way. Maybe people get carried away when they're around him, because he's just that dynamic and has an aura of action-packed derring-do like Errol Flynn. That's why they'd get a second save against the effect when he's not around them anymore. There are any number of ways to fluff it that don't involve "people only respond to power, ever." If that's the case, get rid of Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Leadership, and so on.
If you ever get a chance, look at berserk.If that's an Amime/Manga, sorry, I can't. I freely acknowledge that the genre(s) has a lot to offer, and I don't disparage it at all in and of itself (other than the creepy schoolgirl ones, that is)... but that said, the art styles generally make me want to put my own eyes out.
That's fair, but I seriously think you should look before you comment on the art style. It has almost nothing that would make you think manga about it aside from the fact that it is black and white. The armor and set pieces are very accurate to a period similar to the hundred years war and the outliers (stuff that is outside the norm) is explained in a reasonable manner.
The armor and set pieces are very accurate to a period similar to the hundred years war and the outliers (stuff that is outside the norm) is explained in a reasonable manner.
OK, I Googled it, and some of it is quite tolerable, even to me! However, if this, or even worse, this is an example of the weaponry, count me out.
:)
I assume you feel similarly about the Leadership feat, then? Surely it's nonsensical that certain people inspire far more loyalty than other (more powerful and charismatic) people solely because they chose to hire some guys instead of learning to swing a sword harder?
I'm not a huge fan of Leadership for many reasons, but it doesn't break the world continuity by existing. Leadership is a choice. If I take the Leadership feat, I am implicitly saying that my character goes to the trouble of actually acquiring the cohorts and followers. (This explicitly stated in the 3.5 PHB, and the PF core book comes very close.) It makes perfect sense that a character with the Leadership feat has more followers than any character without it, no matter how charismatic either character is, because people without the Leadership feat aren't trying to hire cohorts or attract followers.
Note that the Leadership feat pays absolutely no attention to what class you are. If fighters automatically got the Leadership feat, I would be complaining rather loudly. I would complain if it was automatically granted to anyone with a sufficiently high Charisma. But that's not the way it is.
When subjected to the kind of standards you're holding it to, the whole game system breaks down. But people accept the rest of it because that's the status quo.
When the proposed rule change is "everyone except the PCs believes a lie", some amount of breaking can be expected to ensue. I don't think that this makes my standards unrealistically high.
That said, your exact complaint is a common one, but no one has ever proposed a replacement -- any ability providing the fighter with the kind of narrative power that the casters enjoy, short of making him a full caster. And if you say, "that's impossible," that's OK -- ultimate classes and/or E6 and/or totally unbalanced systems will still work for you -- but I intend to keep looking.
You are right that no one (that I know of) has proposed a fix to give fighters the kind of narrative power that casters enjoy. It probably isn't possible, and at the very least it isn't a good idea. However, there are many, many proposed changes which decrease the narrative power available to casters.
The armor and set pieces are very accurate to a period similar to the hundred years war and the outliers (stuff that is outside the norm) is explained in a reasonable manner.OK, I Googled it, and some of it is quite tolerable, even to me! However, if this, or even worse, this is an example of the weaponry, count me out.
Yeah, the main character was raised by a mercenary in war camps and trained to fight as a toddler. Since no small weapons were available, he learned to use an arming sword as a five year old. As he grew older, he simply had larger weapons crafted to suit his unorthodox weapon training.
It probably isn't possible, and at the very least it isn't a good idea.
We'll have to differ on that for now -- like I said, I'll keep looking until I come to that conclusion for myself, rather than simply take people's word for it.
Kirth, started looking over Feats.
P 1 Does the +2 to the DC saving throw for ability focus need a bonus descriptor?
P 1 Ancestral Weapon. With the new numen rules it would need a rewrite. I am not big on the feat though (spend a feat just to have my weapon stolen) and maybe it should be cut?
P 5 under leadership the 16 ranks ability, it should depend on character not fighter level correct?
P 5 the leadership potential calculation example seems off, I think when you changed the calculation you altered how the example would work out.
P 5 for the leadership feat, if you are using the special feature (other skills for specialized followers) you still need diplomacy 1 rank as a prereq correct?
P 7 under oath, you are using bonus and boon interchangeably, was that intentional?
Also under the greed oath did you want to say 1000 gp or numen? Under oath of protection you are granting the +1 morale bonus to the protected individuals AC correct (you are not really receiving it correct)? Under Oath of purity “Upon completion, you receive a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against curses, diseases, and poisons as long as you keep this oath and (remain) free from the listed impurities.”
P 9 to be alphabetical paragon of insight should be before paragon of intellect.
Is it intentional that Social training and Moral training’s prerequisite skills are not required to be class skills like stamina training and strength training? (is it a physical vs mental attribute boost difference)?
Finally for skills as an aside, why is it that Craft alchemy is used for making spirits and beer? It seems off that a wizard with this feat gets to make all kinds of potions along with beer, but a fighter is regulated to only being able to create beer and spirits when they are spending skill points on that skill.
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Kirth, you bring up a very interesting proposition for the fighter's narrative power. As I know you've seen, though, it's not very well received by "the mob".
Something to remember is that a caster's narrative power is only a result of his decisions. Powerful spells like teleport, mass charm, planar ally, or the like, are simply tools for the caster to overcome foes and obstacles to eventually accomplish a quest or goal. That's how they were designed in game terms. The narrative power of those spells isn't hard-coded or explicitly listed in their mechanics, but instead in how the player utilizes those tools and the GM's reaction.
A fighter with a box of matches can have just as much narrative power as a wizard with the spark cantrip, regardless of level. In a quest to discover who is burning down villages across the countryside, both characters have the same narrative power.
I completely agree with you, however, that at higher levels it's much easier for the actions of a caster to carry more narrative weight than the actions of a martial character. But forcing a difficult and energy-consuming mechanics such as Leadership, cohorts, and kingdom building rules onto a player isn't a good solution. You're essentially giving the player and GM homework, having to track all of the extra NPC information. That's not to say it's a horrible solution though, as the thought behind it has merit.
So is there an easier, more straight forward solution? None that is apparent, but perhaps.
Someone early did bring up the point that a fighter's inherent narrative power (currently) is his ability to slay demons and dragon with nothing more than a sword. That's pretty powerful in its own right. Is it possible to play off that?
D20 Modern had a Reputation system, which aided in equalizing the narrative influence of all players, regardless of their abilities and skills. This could go a long way in far-reaching narrative power for a martial character, but the problem with that system in a fantasy setting is that casters will still have the inherent narrative power of their spells, even if a fighter has the same or higher Reputation score.
In a steam punk campaign setting I am developing with a team of friends, we created a fighter archetype called the Ructioneer; a fighter who's sheer swagger and unorthodox combat style is enough to rattle his foes and belittle their combat prowess. A couple of these concepts could be expanded to all fighters:
Brutal Bravado (Ex): At 3rd level, the ructioneer’s
overbearing swagger and brutal confidence in combat
unnerves his enemies, leaving them rattled. The ructioneer
gains Dazzling Display as a bonus feat, even if he doesn’t
meet the feat’s prerequisites. If the ructioneer already has
the Dazzling Display feat, he can take any other combat
feat instead. Dazzling Display applies to any improvised
weapon or any weapon from the close weapon group.
Whenever the ructioneer hits with a charge attack,
successfully performs a combat maneuver, successfully
feints against an enemy, deals maximum damage on a
weapon damage roll with an improvised or close weapon,
or hits an opponent with at least two attacks during his
turn while wielding an improvised or close weapon, the
ructioneer can use Dazzling Display as a swift action. When
making multiple attacks during his turn, the ructioneer gains
a +2 bonus on his Dazzling Display Intimidate check for
every attack he hits with beyond the second.
Whenever the ructioneer confirms a critical hit, is the
first person to damage an enemy during combat, or reduces
an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, the ructioneer can use
Dazzling Display as an immediate action. If the ructioneer
gains a special effect on this critical hit from a critical feat, he
gains a +2 bonus on the Dazzling Display Intimidate check.
This ability replaces armor training 1.
What I did with this ability was essentially distill the essence of the Performance Combat system into a single mechanic. It's possible for all fighters to have this sort of influence. And while this is a simple combat mechanic, it can also carry some narrative weight.
Not Your Man (Ex): As the mercenary’s mercenary, the
ructioneer brings an undeterred swagger and decisiveness
of action to every fight that others find hard to handle.
Starting at 11th level, when the ructioneer would be hit
by a combat maneuver, he can make an opposed Intimidate
check against the attacker’s combat maneuver check as
an immediate action. If his check succeeds, the ructioneer
negates the combat maneuver. The ructioneer can use this
ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma
modifier. The ructioneer must be aware of his attacker to
use this ability.
At 15th level, this ability also applies when the ructioneer
would be subject to a rogue’s sneak attack or to precision
damage from attacks such as Vital Strike. The ructioneer
makes an opposed Intimidate check against the attacker’s
attack roll. If his check succeeds, the ructioneer negates
any extra sneak attack or precision damage, and any effect
applied to the sneak attack from rogue talents.
At 19th level, this ability further applies when a foe
confirms a critical hit against the ructioneer. The ructioneer
makes an opposed Intimidate check against the foe’s
confirmation roll. If his check succeeds, the ructioneer
treats the critical hit as a normal hit, and negates any effects
applied from critical feats.
This ability replaces armor training 3 and 4, and armor
mastery.
This ability too was designed for combat use, but still has some narrative weight (should your foes survive the encounter). This could be expanded for the generic fighter, using a system similar to the Samurai's resolve ability.
That inspires another idea; why not roll some of the mechanics of the samurai into the baseline fighter? Those abilities themselves have some pretty outstanding narrative power; honorable stand and last stand, specifically. Otherwise, you already have Grit, which functions similarly to Resolve.
Perhaps a combination of these elements would benefit the fighter than them individually. As I said, the solution isn't clear on how to increase a fighter's narrative influence, but it is something worth pursuing. In the end, these are just some ideas as alternatives to a baseline leadership/cohort-granting ability; which should still exist, but perhaps as a Fighter Talent instead of baseline.
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The armor and set pieces are very accurate to a period similar to the hundred years war and the outliers (stuff that is outside the norm) is explained in a reasonable manner.OK, I Googled it, and some of it is quite tolerable, even to me! However, if this, or even worse, this is an example of the weaponry, count me out.
Jess,
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll admit that I enjoyed Spirited Away, and this one looks like it's in much the same vein. I'll check tonight and see if it's available from Netflix.
Kirth, I came up with an idea that accomplishes your aims (giving fighters more narrative power) while solving my issue with world continuity. I talked about the idea that every high-level character should have some level of influence over NPCs. However, it occurs to me that not everyone reacts to powerful individuals in the same way. Farmer Bob may fear or respect the power of a 20th level wizard, but his reaction would reasonably be different, and far less positive, than his reaction to a 20th level fighter. Likewise, a wizard's academy would certainly acknowledge the prowess of the 20th level fighter, but that would be irrelevant in comparison to their reverence in the presence of a 20th level wizard. Therein lies the key.
To put this into game terms, every character would have "influence" over NPCs. (I am intentionally leaving the precise mechanics of "influence" vague for the time being; that is something which you should create to fit your world.) A character's influence is based on three factors:
- Character level. More powerful characters are more influential.
- Character fame/renown. Based on the character's actions in the world. A 10th level fighter who is also the general of an army has more influence than a 10th level fighter who has been dungeon-delving since level 1.
- How similar the character is to the NPCs.
The last point is where we balance fighters and wizards. Simply put, there are a lot more "mundanes" in the world than casters. A fighter will have influence over a huge variety of NPCs; anyone can respect and admire someone who overcomes challenges through sheer force of arms. (This is completely realistic, as evidenced by the fact that many of our real-life fantasy novels have nonmagical main characters. People find fighters impressive.) In contrast, a wizard is just too arcane and mysterious to have much influence. This means that the number of groups he has influence over will be significantly diminished.
Of course, the world has more than just fighters and wizards. Paladins earn respect from any lawful organization, and they would have crazy influence over "underlings" within their own church hierarchy. Druids would have much less influence within most cities, but presumably great influence with rural people. And so on.
This would provide "mundanes" with a greater degree of influence over the world in a way that perfectly matches their fluff. With this system, their lack of magic isn't a penalty; it is precisely what gives them their influence! This accomplishes your goals without offending my delicate internal consistency sensibilities. I'm actually pretty excited about this idea.
Every other class would fall into this category in one way or another, except the fighter.
I agree with most of what you said, but don't forget that the fighter isn't the only class that can inspire that sort of reaction. Rogues and barbarians are fully "mundane" and deserve their share of the spotlight in this area too (depending on the kind of rogue, of course; a stealthy assassin might not want too much influence). I'd also put clerics, paladins and possibly rangers as classes that deserve a fair amount of influence, too.
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Every other class would fall into this category in one way or another, except the fighter.I agree with most of what you said, but don't forget that the fighter isn't the only class that can inspire that sort of reaction. Rogues and barbarians are fully "mundane" and deserve their share of the spotlight in this area too (depending on the kind of rogue, of course; a stealthy assassin might not want too much influence). I'd also put clerics, paladins and possibly rangers as classes that deserve a fair amount of influence, too.
This is where "Influence bonus by class level" progression chart would come into play, much like D20 Modern, where the more "outgoing" classes progressed faster in Reputation bonus than others. Much like a BAB progression.
This would provide "mundanes" with a greater degree of influence over the world in a way that perfectly matches their fluff. With this system, their lack of magic isn't a penalty; it is precisely what gives them their influence! This accomplishes your goals without offending my delicate internal consistency sensibilities. I'm actually pretty excited about this idea.
(Smiles) See, I told you there were better ways of spinning the fluff! I'll think about mechanics a bit, but in the meantime, I'd rather allow more open discussion here without guiding it any more -- Sellsword has already advanced the conversation, and I hope others will contribute as well.
This is where "Influence bonus by class level" progression chart would come into play, much like D20 Modern, where the more "outgoing" classes progressed faster in Reputation bonus than others. Much like a BAB progression.
Not quite. Let's say that fighters have a good Reputation bonus progression, while wizards have a poor Reputation bonus progression. That would mean that the a fighter would be more influential at a mage's college than a wizard, which is not an acceptable outcome. I think the only way to make this work is to customize interactions based on groups. What distinguishes the fighter from the wizard is not that he has "more influence" in an abstract sense, but rather than his influence affects more kinds of people.
I think its easier to have a standard reputation progression and then have bonuses and penalties to that value based on the person being influenced, it would be easier for players to know what their basic score is and as a consequence, the DM could withhold the specific penalty or bonus modifier of specific NPC's.
Reputation could actually have different statistic that modify the reputation value of the classes.
As an aside, I personally believe that a barbarian should have the least reputation of the martial classes outside of nomad tribes and the like because their supernatural effects would freak out most other mundanes.
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Why not just go with the "base reputation bonus" idea, but instead have circumstantial modifiers (similar to the Leadership chart)? These would no doubt be incredibly vague because obviously this sort of thing can't be codified for every setting and every situation, but I mean...
Dealing with a wizard cabal or some such:
Arcane spellcaster - +5
Have some minor spellcasting (e.g. divine casting, bardic music) - +2
Can't cast spells - -5
Think of it similar to the "extremely favourable/unfavourable situation" chart with Perception checks.
This is where "Influence bonus by class level" progression chart would come into play, much like D20 Modern, where the more "outgoing" classes progressed faster in Reputation bonus than others. Much like a BAB progression.Not quite. Let's say that fighters have a good Reputation bonus progression, while wizards have a poor Reputation bonus progression. That would mean that the a fighter would be more influential at a mage's college than a wizard, which is not an acceptable outcome. I think the only way to make this work is to customize interactions based on groups. What distinguishes the fighter from the wizard is not that he has "more influence" in an abstract sense, but rather than his influence affects more kinds of people.
What you are describing here is more of a conditional modifier.
Dealing with a wizard cabal or some such:
Arcane spellcaster - +5
Have some minor spellcasting (e.g. divine casting, bardic music) - +2
Can't cast spells - -5Think of it similar to the "extremely favourable/unfavourable situation" chart with Perception checks.
^ This ^
A fighter's and wizard's base reputation progression may be similar (the fighter with perhaps a slight edge), but their past deeds/exploits would change their bonus, as would the situation. Even if the fighter has a higher reputation than the wizard, in the presence of a wizard cabal, according to Alice, the wizard would have a 10 point lead on the fighter. But in the presence of an army or mercenary band, the fighter would have a higher bonus.
The trick is going to be getting the numbers right for this reputation bonus...
The way that d20 Modern's Reputation system worked was that every time a hero interacted was an NPC, the GM made a Reputation check (DC 25). This was a roll of 1d20 + hero's Rep bonus + the NPC's Int mod (or Knowledge (local) bonus if applicable). If the GM's check succeeded, the NPC recognized the hero. If the hero was famous (favorable exploits), he would get a +4 bonus on Cha-based skill checks with the NPC. If the hero was infamous (unfavorable exploits), he would get a -4 penalty on Cha-based skill checks with the NPC. Fame and Infamy was always relative to the NPC, however.
Situation modifiers were:
- You famous, known far and wide (regardless of positive or negative Rep bonus) = +10 to Rep check
- NPC is part of hero's professional or social circle (same organization, same class, similar background, etc.) = +5 to Rep check
- Hero has some small amount of fame or infamy = +2 to Rep check
All of this is just a springboard for thought, however.
My original suggestion (posted above) was to use a combination of a reputation system and some sort of Intimidate-related mechanic for the fighter, where his reputation could translate into combat abilities.
I was just looking through the classes again(for the hundred and eleventieth time) and I was thinking about a character trope that I have always been interested in making but found impossible with most systems.
If you wanted to make a style of character that is mostly a martial class that is trained in an extremely focused type of casting to enhance their combat, how would you go about it?
As an example, If I wanted to make a melee class that is entirely focused on force effects such that he is never unarmed (through force swords and armor etc.). Would you say that the monk class would be the way to make this kind of character? I am unsure how you would go about customizing the spell list to be highly focused... Also, would some of the monk stuff be modular as well? I would probably want to attach the unarmed damage to his force effects rather than fists... hmmm.
Well, I don't see any way of getting your force effects to be the cause of your unarmed damage short of a) reflavoring, or b) using a soulknife archetype. But as for spell selection from the monk list for a force-type caster, here's what I'd probably go with:
1st) forcewave, inertial armor (either normal or immediate; both fit the flavor), immediate shield
2nd) battering ram, force punch, sudden haste
3rd) air walk (creating places to step using 'force' effects on the air), slow
4th) orb of force, sudden stoneskin (hardening your skin with force powers)
5th) telekinesis
Now, the non-obvious ones may be stretching it, I don't really know; at the moment, I'm quite exhausted and my brain may be making connections it shouldn't be. That said, it feels like a good place to start if nothing else.
As for the reputation discussion going on, I really like where that's headed but I feel like the circumstantial bonuses can be circumvented by a quick level dip or two to get a huge swath of high-bonus areas, unless your reputation from each class would count separately depending on the group you're talking to (which goes against the feel that Kirth's set up with all the multiclassing synergy options).
Trogdar,
If you have an unused ki power slot of at least 2nd level, you can choose to convert some or all of this bonus damage to force damage, to a maximum number of dice equal to the level of the highest-level ki power slot you have remaining -1. For example, a 12th level monk with a 3rd level ki slot could convert all 3d6 of his unarmed mastery damage to force damage.
Then take the Versatile Strike feat and declare [force effects] as your alternate weapon.
Choose things like inertial armor and force punch as your ki powers (Vulture's list looks like an excellent starting point, and remember others can be added with player agreement and referee permission).
For force weapons that appear out of nowhere, you could spend some mojo on a weapon made of force and then add secret pocket (d20 Arcana SRD) as a spell effect -- so that you "sheathe" it in an extradimensional space that only you can access.
Finally -- and this is sort of oddball, but workable if you REALLY want to get into the whole "force" thing -- you could use the Prestige Specialist concept (Wizard Appendix C) and use either Abjurer or Evoker, or else come up with a "force mage" esoteric branch of wizardry. A few levels of that to augment your monk abilities might be a cool concept.
Alternatively, forget the monk and go Battle Sorcerer with the Kensai martial path; your eldritch blast is essentially an invisible sword made of force that can attack people at short range, and pick spells with the [force] descriptor.
Kirth, started looking over Feats.
1. Does the +2 to the DC saving throw for ability focus need a bonus descriptor?
2. Ancestral Weapon. With the new numen rules it would need a rewrite. I am not big on the feat though (spend a feat just to have my weapon stolen) and maybe it should be cut?
3. under leadership the 16 ranks ability, it should depend on character not fighter level correct?
4. the leadership potential calculation example seems off, I think when you changed the calculation you altered how the example would work out.
5. for the leadership feat, if you are using the special feature (other skills for specialized followers) you still need diplomacy 1 rank as a prereq correct?
6. under oath, you are using bonus and boon interchangeably, was that intentional? Also under the greed oath did you want to say 1000 gp or numen? Under oath of protection you are granting the +1 morale bonus to the protected individuals AC correct (you are not really receiving it correct)? Under Oath of purity “Upon completion, you receive a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against curses, diseases, and poisons as long as you keep this oath and (remain) free from the listed impurities.”
7. to be alphabetical paragon of insight should be before paragon of intellect.
8. Is it intentional that Social training and Moral training’s prerequisite skills are not required to be class skills like stamina training and strength training? (is it a physical vs mental attribute boost difference)?
9. Finally for skills as an aside, why is it that Craft alchemy is used for making spirits and beer? It seems off that a wizard with this feat gets to make all kinds of potions along with beer, but a fighter is regulated to only being able to create beer and spirits when they are spending skill points on that skill.
Christopher -- all good catches, thank you! In response:
1. Correct -- it should be a specialization bonus.
2. I agree; probably simply whacking it is best.
3. Yes; typo corrected.
4. Hmmm, 9 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 Cha = 14, subtract 8 = 6, divide by 2 = 3; 3^2 = 9. At CR 1/3 each, that would be 27 1st-level NPCs. Example looks right to me...
5. The intent was that you'd use whatever other relevant skill. (Ideally, I'd like to split out Leadership into a suite of similar feats, but just haven't gotten to it yet.)
6. To be honest, I'm not really keen on Oath altogether. I'll revisit it when I get a chance and clean it up, but might just strike it altogether.
7. Corrected in master document -- thanks.
8. Yes, but I'm open to suggestions/argument otherwise.
9. Add the following sentence after the sentence about spells known: "Alternatively, you might be able to substitute relevant talents or feats for spellcasting ability, as described for the Imbue Item feat."
I forgot to add in the +3 class skill bonus for the leadership example, now the math makes sense, thanks.
For Renown I use a similar system to how fantasy craft does theirs. If I would build my own:
First one would want to determine what benefits could be determined by renown. The trick is to make them level appropriate and ensure one has a system to 1. break them into what renown types offer what (I use a conquest path, crime path, heroic path, political path, academic path, and religious path). 2. make level break points where each benefit is available. I really am not a fan of creating a renown points system that can be spent on different things (just more paperwork) but a lot of people seem to like it.
For skills it is hard to balance since the current power level in the pathfinder system is spells then class abilities then feats then skills. Bring up skill power means you can underpower quite a few other things, plus one skill should not overshine another (right now +16 acrobatics allows limited flight, how to you balance that with +16 ride or +16 climb?).
Re: discounted weapons and other big numerical bonuses, up-thread we talked about Jess Door's fighter Sheraviel... eventually a dumb ogre barbarian connected with one of those Power Attacks and confirmed the crit (Aid Another and Critical Focus helps there), and took her from full to -15 hp in one shot.Stupid ogres...
::disdainful sniff::
I felt kinda bad when that happened. I didn't change anything to your character, but I was running her. This was, like, the first or second battle where I was running her, and this Ogre chief just chopped her in half. I made a sad face.
I was sort of hoping Jack would come up on the die, and we could have a cool "rage death" scene (I'd sort of been rehearsing it in my head, with suitably personalized last words like "I need a drink!").
Or Siodra, since she was pretty much dead weight anyway.
But I gave everyone in melee range one number on the die, and there you have it. One of these days I'll learn to roll behind a screen, but that still feels dishonest and makes me feel dirty.
Trogdar,
If you have an unused ki power slot of at least 2nd level, you can choose to convert some or all of this bonus damage to force damage, to a maximum number of dice equal to the level of the highest-level ki power slot you have remaining -1. For example, a 12th level monk with a 3rd level ki slot could convert all 3d6 of his unarmed mastery damage to force damage.Then take the Versatile Strike feat and declare [force effects] as your alternate weapon.
Choose things like inertial armor and force punch as your ki powers (Vulture's list looks like an excellent starting point, and remember others can be added with player agreement and referee permission).
For force weapons that appear out of nowhere, you could spend some mojo on a weapon made of force and then add secret pocket (d20 Arcana SRD) as a spell effect -- so that you "sheathe" it in an extradimensional space that only you can access.
Finally -- and this is sort of oddball, but workable if you REALLY want to get into the whole "force" thing -- you could use the Prestige Specialist concept (Wizard Appendix C) and use either Abjurer or Evoker, or else come up with a "force mage" esoteric branch of wizardry. A few levels of that to augment your monk abilities might be a cool concept.
Alternatively, forget the monk and go Battle Sorcerer with the Kensai martial path; your eldritch blast is essentially an invisible sword made of force that can attack people at short range, and pick spells with the [force] descriptor.
That works I guess. I was figuring on a custom spell like flame blade or something with the force descriptor.