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1st-level samurai (cavalier archetype) here is wanting to be sure his horse is properly statted -- which is a bloody chore.
Taking the Animal Compansion stats for a horse (using d20pfsrd here; advise of errors):
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
* This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
b} do these "starting statistics" include or NOT include the 1st-level bennies listed on the Animal Companion Base Statistics table? -- I'm assuming they don't, and that the 1st-level character's A-C horse is derived by taking the starting statistics and then applying the "base" statistics (which is confusing but at least generates a 2HD horse).
c} since a samurai/cavalier horse comes combat-trained, are its hooves still considered secondary natural attacks? If not, what happens when the A-C acquires Multiattack?
d} I am assuming that the only reason a paladin's horse is described as "heavy" is because he's getting it at 5th (and it's already acquired the Advanced Simple template).
e} I assume that my samurai/cavalier horse will always be "stupid" compared to a paladin's (i.e., lower INT and WIS scores).
f} regards the Ride skill's various uses, what is the functional difference between "free action" and "no action at all"?
g} Ride/Cover: ...if an enemy moves and attacks me while I am mounted, and I immediate-reaction drop down for cover, does the enemy lose his attack -- or can he then attack my horse, and can I then (subsequently), attempt a Ride check to negate it via Mounted Combat?
h} can my trained-for-combat mount take AoOs against adjacent prone targets as they attempt to stand up? If so, does the +4 to attack prone targets apply?
i} a 1st-level animal companion has 1 trick -- is it already "included" with the animal upon character-creation (of a class with an A-C), or does it require the week's worth of training?
j} I further assume the 1 trick is in addition to the combat training a cavalier's mount possesses.
k} regarding...
In addition, a druid's or ranger's animal companion knows one or more bonus tricks, which don't count against the normal limit on tricks known and don't require any training time or Handle Animal checks to teach.[/i]
l} "...Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice...." doesn't make any sense because, on the Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics, a 1st-level companion is shown having 2HD and BAB+1.
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I recently went thru this when making my Cavalier.
It's way easier if you never look in the Bestiary- the Mount ability says to treat it as a druid companion (less certain spell-related abilities).
There's stats for a horse under druid animal companions, and thats what we're supposed to use.
OTOH, if you buy a warhorse or riding horse, then you get to use the Bestiary stats.
At least, in strict accordance with RAW, that's how it appears it's supposed to work.
Taking your points in order...
a) You check the Druid animal companion chart, roll it's hit die. At 1st level, it would have 2 HD.
b) It does include all that, except Share Spells.
c) I believe they do become primary.
d) I think so yes.
e) Yes.
f) A free action can be restricted in number per round by your GM, no action at all is just that, it's not even a free action. No restrictions.
g) You gain the cover bonus to your AC.
h) Yes and yes.
i) It comes as part of it, assume you spent the week.
j) Yes.
k) Yes.
l) Yes, but they don't gain a feat at the 2nd HD, when they get a BAB of +1.
a} lack of listed hitpoints is annoying, and CON is lower than that of a Beastiary horse -- so I am unsure if it starts with 19hp. In fact, is it even a 2 hit-die creature?
Yes. It goes off the druids chart. It doesn't have listed HP because you Roll the hp for it.
Note: the horse does not have a hero class for hit dice, so it does not get full HP on the first one.
b} do these "starting statistics" include or NOT include the 1st-level bennies listed on the Animal Companion Base Statistics table? -- I'm assuming they don't, and that the 1st-level character's A-C horse is derived by taking the starting statistics and then applying the "base" statistics (which is confusing but at least generates a 2HD horse)
They do not include the first level bennies. S you get
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
Plus whats on the chart.
c} since a samurai/cavalier horse comes combat-trained, are its hooves still considered secondary natural attacks? If not, what happens when the A-C acquires Multiattack?
1) Its hooves are not secondary attacks anymore, for the reason you said.
2) It technically knows all of the combat tricks. ATtack guard come down stay. (i think)2a) you will want to teach it attack again, so it will attack unnatural critters.
3) Instead of multi attack it gets another hoof at -5
d} I am assuming that the only reason a paladin's horse is described as "heavy" is because he's getting it at 5th (and it's already acquired the Advanced Simple template).
Sounds right. However don't up the horses int from the advanced template.
e} I assume that my samurai/cavalier horse will always be "stupid" compared to a paladin's (i.e., lower INT and WIS scores).
Yup. His is an ontological manifestation of the platonic quality of horsiness. Yours is an exceptionally well trained horse.
I would recommend dropping a point of int into the horse at some point. You may need the horse to act without you and/or know a language (sort of) If the wizard discards an old headband of intelligence, snag it from him.
f} regards the Ride skill's various uses, what is the functional difference between "free action" and "no action at all"?
Nadda nothing zip zilch nadda.
g} Ride/Cover: ...if an enemy moves and attacks me while I am mounted, and I immediate-reaction drop down for cover, does the enemy lose his attack -- or can he then attack my...
Cover doesn't prevent an attack, it just makes it harder. Presumably immediate actions use the same rules as held actions, so if they're capable of continuing their action they continue to attack you even though your AC is 4 higher than expected.
h} can my trained-for-combat mount take AoOs against adjacent prone targets as they attempt to stand up? If so, does the +4 to attack prone targets apply?
yes. A combat trained horse, once you've decided to attack something, is going to try to kill it. The attack is resolved before the action that triggered it, so the creature is still prone.
i} a 1st-level animal companion has 1 trick -- is it already "included" with the animal upon character-creation (of a class with an A-C), or does it require the week's worth of training?
-It has one BONUS trick. It has the 4 its entitled to due to its intelligence, and technically your mount is combat trained, so you have all of the attack tricks.
Again, remember to teach it attack twice.
k} regarding...
Yes. Insert cavalier for druid.
"...Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice...." doesn't make any sense because, on the Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics, a 1st-level companion is shown having 2HD and BAB+1.
Your horsie leveled up before you did. At 1 HD it got a feat but didn't have the BAB. At 2HD it had the BAB but couldn't take a feat because you don't get one till third.
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Samurai isn't an archetype, although for many purposes an alternate class works similarly.
a ) It is a 2 HD creature. Ask your GM about rolling hit points. In PFS it gets average hit points for each hit die, including the first, and recalculated (re-rounded) at each level.
b ) It gets the statistics for a companion horse with the base stats given on the animal companion table. I can't see anywhere that it gets an addition from both at 1st level, but if it does, they would stack.
c ) Its hooves are primary attacks. Since it has three natural attacks, it receives Multiattack at 9th level, but since all its attacks are primary, it gets no benefit from the feat. It does not get the extra attack substitution.
d ) There is no reason for the paladin's mount to be described as "heavy". This is misleading fluff.
e ) The samurai's mount has lower INT unless you put 4 extra points into INT. It has the same WIS as a paladin's mount.
f ) You can perform non-actions outside of your turn and when you are under conditions that prevent you from taking actions.
g ) Cover doesn't negate the enemy's attack in your example - it only gives him a penalty. He may not choose to attack your horse (or any other target) instead. However it would negate an attack of opportunity and in that case, he could take an AoO on the horse instead if it provoked at the same time.
h ) Yes to both, if it is currently under a command to attack that enemy.
i and j ) The companion knows its first bonus trick at the start of play and gains further bonus tricks immediately at the appropriate levels. A samurai's mount also knows the 6 tricks listed for Combat Training. It can't be taught any tricks unless it gains Intelligence.
k ) I believe (and have assumed for PFS) a samurai gets the +4 bonus to Handle Animal for his mount, because he is effectively a druid for this purpose. The mount gets bonus tricks as part of the standard animal companion progression.
l ) Unless this has been updated, I'd ignore the word "note", reading this not as a clarification but as a rule. I believe the reasoning is that the companion got its first feat at 1 HD, at which time an animal has a BAB of +0.
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I'll have a go at it (assumed samurai mount for PFS, items in square brackets are selectable by the player, no effects of equipment or of the samurai's skills shown).
Hey, here's a neat thing:
Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
Since a samurai or cavalier's horse already has combat training, it automatically gets +2 DEX, +2 CON at 4th level.
Samurai's Horse CR -
XP 0
N Large animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 14, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, -1 size)
hp 13 (2d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +3 (1d4+3), 2 hooves +3 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 16 (20 vs. trip)
Feats Light Armor Proficiency(B), [Run]
Skills [Acrobatics +5 (+13 jump), Perception +5]
Tricks attack, [attack (any),] come, defend, down, guard, heel
SQ combat trained, link
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Ecology
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Environment any
Organization animal companion
Treasure none
[QUOTE="Starglim"
Melee bite +3 (1d4+3), 2 hooves +3 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 16 (20 vs. trip)
Bite and hooves to-hit should be +4 each, since it has 1 BAB and +3 str. Nothing else stands out though.
Bite and hooves to-hit should be +4 each, since it has 1 BAB and +3 str. Nothing else stands out though.Melee bite +3 (1d4+3), 2 hooves +3 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 16 (20 vs. trip)
You forgot -1 to hit for size.
Also, the hoofs are secondary attacks for the record. Here how you know:
1) Do not look in the bestiary. Burn your copy if necessary.
2) Does it say anywhere in the the druid animal companion section anything about a special quality called Docile? No? I couldn't find it either.
3) Then how is it making its hoofs primary attacks?
I apologize for being so over-the-top, but it is important to remember that companions and their bestiary equivelents have nothing in common whatsoever. I've been having this same debate on a weekly basis for a month now.
A more in depth conversation about the difference between companions and store bought mounts is going on over here.
Also, the hoofs are secondary attacks for the record. Here how you know:1) Do not look in the bestiary. Burn your copy if necessary.
2) Does it say anywhere in the the druid animal companion section anything about a special quality called Docile? No? I couldn't find it either.
3) Then how is it making its hoofs primary attacks?
Cavalier section says that the horse is automatically combat trained. Druid section says to check the Bestiary re: combat trained. Bestiary says that combat trained horses are not subject to docile.
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Ah. Actually the druid section says Bestiary re: war trained, which leads nowhere. I checked the unofficial FAQ to see what the deal was and found this quote:
Q: I was trying to stat up a horse animal companion when I realized under druid animal companions, the advanced horse section says special ability: war trained (see Pathfinder Bestiary). I looked, but did not see anything. What exactly is this referring to in the bestiary?
A: (James Jacobs 11/25/09) War trained is actually detailed under the description of the Handle Animal skill. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training. " It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. Horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained-their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.
So in the interest of saving face, I mantain that RAW, hooves are secondary attacks, but Jacobs gives good advice and you should do it his way just 'cause. ;)
So in the interest of saving face, I mantain that RAW, hooves are secondary attacks, but Jacobs gives good advice and you should do it his way just 'cause. ;)
I've been looking at this recently, and here's my spin on the situation.
Docile (Ex): Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill), a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Without combat training hoof attacks are treated as secondary. With combat training hoof attacks receive no special treatment. It doesn't say that combat training makes hooves primary.
A bite attack is primary and hoof is secondary. With only a single type, hoof is normally primary for a light horse. Without training, a light horse is docile, and the hoof becomes secondary. With training, it no longer is treated as a special case, and it goes back to primary as per the UMR.
With heavy and animal companions, they already have a primary attack (bite). Docile is irrelevant (if it applies), since hooves are always secondary in that case. With training, you don't treat hooves differently, and they are still secondary.
That seems the most reasonable to me.
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3) Instead of multi attack it gets another hoof at -5
This is incorrect. The animal only gains a second attack at -5 if it has fewer than 3 natural attacks already. Since the horse has bite/hoof/hoof, the Multiattack feat is useless for it (like it is for most of the other creatures).
However, a horse animal companion is its own beast. It's neither light nor heavy, and has its own stats. ... Combat training doesn't affect hoof attacks for horse animal companions as written.
Mostly right. Animal companion stats go completely off of their animal companion stat blocks, NOT the regular bestiary entry or anything else. The hooves start off as secondary. However, as Rats Archive posted above, the FAQ has stated that an animal companion horse's hooves are secondary before Combat Training, and primary afterward:
Q: I was trying to stat up a horse animal companion when I realized under druid animal companions, the advanced horse section says special ability: war trained (see Pathfinder Bestiary). I looked, but did not see anything. What exactly is this referring to in the bestiary?
A: (James Jacobs 11/25/09) War trained is actually detailed under the description of the Handle Animal skill. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training. " It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. Horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained-their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.
Since the cavalier mount comes Combat Trained, its hooves would be primary attacks at first level.
The horse at Level 1 would be statted thusly:
Horse
Level 1
Size Large
Speed 50 ft.
Str 16; Dex 13; Con 15; Int 2; Wis 12; Cha 6
Fort +5; Ref +4; Will +1
BAB: +1
AC: 14 (10 +4 natural +1 dex -1 size)
HP: 2d8+4 (2 HD + Con mod on each)
Attack: bite/hoof/hoof +3/+3/+3 1d4+3/1d6+3/1d6+3
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Tricks: Combat Trained (attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel) + 1 more bonus trick of your choosing
Feats: Light Armor Proficiency (bonus feat from Cavalier) + 1 of your choosing from the list of available feats on page 53 of the CRB
Skills: 2 ranks at first level, must be placed in a skill listed on page 53 of the CRB
Since the horse has more than one natural attack, it cannot add 1-1/2 times its strength mod to damage even when doing a single attack. The attack bonus is only +3 because of the -1 size mod, as Rats Archive has already pointed out as well.
Since a samurai or cavalier's horse already has combat training, it automatically gets +2 DEX, +2 CON at 4th level.
The CRB says you can take this instead of the 4th-level benefit, but Combat Training is only part of that benefit for the horse. You can choose +2 Dex, +2 Con if you want, but you give up the listed bonus of +2 Str, +2 Con.
3) Instead of multi attack it gets another hoof at -5
This is incorrect. The animal only gains a second attack at -5 if it has fewer than 3 natural attacks already. Since the horse has bite/hoof/hoof, the Multiattack feat is useless for it (like it is for most of the other creatures).
whoops. I keep forgetting horses work different than my pony.
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k ) I believe (and have assumed for PFS) a samurai gets the +4 bonus to Handle Animal for his mount, because he is effectively a druid for this purpose.
In fact, a better answer is that the bonus and improvement in action time for Handle Animal is a function not of the druid or ranger class, but of the Link special ability, which the samurai's mount definitely gets.
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Thanks, Tophyr.
...any advice for feats aside from Toughness and Dodge? (Also, answer to question in previous post.)
(My samurai, a DEX-advancing TWF build, will not be going the Spirited Charge route, although he does have Mounted Combat and will be doting on the horse to keep it a viable participant. It's fun stamping goblins out like cigarette butts at 1st-level, but I realize that won't last long. This is for a PFS campaign, so retirement at 12th.)