After reading a certain book, I am really in the mood to play a bard. I have read Treantmonk's guide and looked around the boards a bit and have decided I want play a melee bard (really more support, but can get into melee if needed, really don't want to do an archer)
I just really wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the Arcane Duelist (doesn't really give up anything I will miss) or the Magician (loses a few of the Bard's best music, but picking spells off other arcane lists is awesome)
So what do the great minds here think? Arcane Duelist or Magician and why?
I just really wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the Arcane Duelist (doesn't really give up anything I will miss) or the Magician (loses a few of the Bard's best music, but picking spells off other arcane lists is awesome)
It really depends what you like about the bard, but for me giving up spellcasting progression completely with the duelist would be too high a price.
Basically if you are liking a bard and looking ahead the abilities the bard is getting are doing it justice then I would highly recommend staying with bard.
For my money if I wanted to build a duelist type character I would probably build it another way. Your call though (obviously).
When you say you are wanting a play a bard after reading a book, do you want a character who can do some melee, some spellcasting, and uses his performance to boost the party or do you mean that you want to play a wandering minstrel/performer who can mix it up duelist style? If the second than I would build a duelist from other classes, take ranks in perform and play that character to the hilt.
Sean Mahoney
Um...the Arcane Duelist archetype doesn't give up spell progression... >_> <_<
Um...the Arcane Duelist archetype doesn't give up spell progression... >_> <_<
Doh! I was thinking of the duelist prestige class and apparently read right over the word "arcane," sorry about that!
Sean
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If you want to melee, the Arcane Duelist is probably a better pick. It's similar to the Magus in certain ways, but still with better group-buffing capabilities.
The magician never struck me as a class I would pick to melee with. I would pick the magician if I wanted to, you know, be a magician. With the spells and the casting and the explosions.
Reading over the arcane duelist prestige class, I think it would be a very good choice for a melee bard.
- Arcane Strike -
While I hate to lose bardic knowledge, you do have enough skill points that you can still take the knowledge skills that you want to be good with and be just fine. I think you will find that you get a lot more use out of the Arcane Strike feat than you would bardic knowledge anyway... but I suppose you could just have taken this as a feat.
- Rallying Cry -
Not that great of an ability, but it is better than countersong which it replaces and will likely see a lot more use as well. So good trade here as well.
- Bladethirst -
While Suggestion is very situational, I think it has a lot uses, so it would be tough for me to use. That said, many people I see play bards never really even use suggestion... if you think you would fall in that camp then this is a very strong ability swap. If, like me, you like suggestion, then it is a tough swap but I think Bladethirst probably will see more use... so still a good trade.
- Bonus Feats -
The feats granted are not horrible, but may not have been ones you would have picked... but then they are bonuses, so that is fine. It does replaces versatile performance though which is yet another hit (on top of losing bardic knowledge) to your massive skill advantage. That said, you really still do have a good number of skills, so as long as you weren't wanting to be crazy skill guy, you are still sitting pretty.
(note: Penetrating Strike only works with weapons that you have weapon focus in, but you don't get weapon focus as a bonus feat... so make sure you take it some time before 14th lvl)
- Arcane Bond -
Another hit to your skills-a-lot reputation, but we gave that up a few abilities ago... another spell a day is nice and being able to cast with out needing a free hand is REALLY nice.
- Arcane Armor -
This is more skill hate, but again, we don't really care anymore. The only thing with this ability is that it comes a bit late in the game for my tastes... still you get full casting in heavy armor by the end which is fun... not a bad deal
- Overall -
You are giving up the bards normal place as the 'go-to' skill guy. You still have a good amount of skill points and can put them where you would like them, so you still aren't hurting. At the same time you are gaining a set of abilities that you are more likely to use than what you are loosing (which is the definition of win for an archetype). You gain a bunch of abilities that make you better in a fight, make your friends even better in a fight, or are just a bit more useful than the ability replaced.
Yeah, I would most definitely go with this one.
Sean Mahoney
Very good breakdown of the class Sean, thank you. I really like the Arcane Duelist. After looking at the group composition as well I believe it is the better pick (very melee focused)
Also forgot all about being able to cast even when duel wielding because of the arcane bond.
Will most definetly go with the Arcane Duelist, I believe.
Is it worth duel wielding or should I go with a long sword with two hands. I know Dual Wield is feat and stat intensive, but I did roll well. I could also go Half-Orc and use a greataxe or falchion.
Starting at 4th level
18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 14
Human Dual Wield
Str 14
Dex 20 (+2 racial)
Con 16 (+1 at 4th)
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 18
1st Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd Power Attack
Then all the Arcane Duelist goodness.
or
Half-Orc
Str 20 (+2 Racial)
Dex 16 (+1 at 4th)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 18
1st ?Toughness?
3rd Power Attack
Use a greataxe or falcion and be the world's prettiest Half Orc
Any recomendations?
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No, be the world's most intimidating half-orc!
I would shift your stats around a bit, only because we are focusing on the martial and not so much on the casting, right?
Str 20 (18+2)
Dex 14
Con 18
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16 (15+1)
This makes you a serious bruiser, and gives you enough charisma that you're fine to cast all your spells. The DCs of your casts don't really matter so much, because you're mostly buffing so that you can get into melee.
Bards get skills in spades, so I went with increasing will save and perception score instead; constitution is more useful for a d8 hit dice than dexterity in my opinion, and besides, you'll be upgrading to medium and then heavy armour eventually.
Toughness would put you in line with the fighters (in fact, you may out-health them); and yes, follow it up with power Attack for smashy goodness. From there weapon focus and furious focus are both good choices, or you could go for something more defensive like shield of swings.
Also, what's your rolling method? Those stats are ridiculous!
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Two Weapon Fighting before level 5 will be a pain for your Arcane Duelist, because he still needs a hand free for somantic components before he gets the Arcane Bond Class Feature. That aside, it's a stylistic choice really. Personally, with a 'melee' Bard (especially an Arcane Duelist) I like to keep a shield handy for the extra AC.
Don't forget that when you do get the Arcane Bond you get to enchant your bonded weapon as if you had the relevant Item Creation Feats, and that it only works for you, and that it heals damage to it automatically... The gp to enchant it aside, an Arcane Bonded weapon actually outpaces a Magus's Black Blade in many ways.
Ya the numbers are crazy. We rolled 3d6 reroll 1's drop the lowest add 6. The GM wanted us to have good stats. But he also gives all monsters max hp's.
Mergy thanks for the recomendation. Looks really good. How would you recomend to building it if I wanted to be more support that can melee?
Two Weapon Fighting before level 5 will be a pain for your Arcane Duelist, because he still needs a hand free for somantic components before he gets the Arcane Bond Class Feature. That aside, it's a stylistic choice really. Personally, with a 'melee' Bard (especially an Arcane Duelist) I like to keep a shield handy for the extra AC.
Don't forget that when you do get the Arcane Bond you get to enchant your bonded weapon as if you had the relevant Item Creation Feats, and that it only works for you, and that it heals damage to it automatically... The gp to enchant it aside, an Arcane Bonded weapon actually outpaces a Magus's Black Blade in many ways.
Good point on the two weapon fighting. Something else I need to remember. If I went that route what weapons would you recomend? I could use daggers and the river rat trait. A pair of short swords, or rapier/ dagger.
I would want to use finessable weapons wouldn't I?
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Don't worry, you're still great support even when you're heading straight for melee. I assume your first round was moving in and Inspiring Courage, but you may want to hang back a few rounds to go:
Inspire Courage
(Quicken Rod for Heroism)
Haste, and move in
Third round attack.
Of course, for minor combats it'll all be over by then, so just start your performance and go in for the kill.
Remember, you're still a bard, you just don't have the skill advantage, because you've traded it for some combat abilities. Play it like a bard and your group will still love the support.
EDIT: Don't go with finessable weapons. Bards don't get enough feats to effectively two-weapon fight. I think you'd be best with the falchion/greataxe; alternatively a longsword lets you keep a hand free for metamagic rods.
I think sticking with the longsword so I can have my off hand free is a good idea, that way I could also pull out a shield if I really need it.
I would also probably stay human, so what for the first level bonus feat.
1st Toughness
Human: Lingering song?, Combat Manuevers (for improved manuvers later)
3rd: Power Attack
And I can switch out HP's and Extra spells known (favored class bonus) as needed.
Lingering Performance is what I meant, thanks.
I like it better than extra performance. Any other suggestions?
And thanks alot.
Definately stick with Arcane Duelist, losing Inspire Courage just aint worth it. A longsword is a solid choice, and dont forget you can strike with it two-handed. With power attack, arcane strike, 20 str and inspire courage that's a bloody good +7 (1d8+12).
I reccomend staying a human but cranking your dexterity up.
Alternatively, take a quarterstaff. As a bonded item, you'll be able to cast with it, and you should be able to enchant both sides for a two weapon fighting build. This should make for some pretty good returns on your inspire courage, but it may not live up to the two-handed build. It's up to you whether you like the flavour of a bard weilding naught but his trusty walking stick.
Feats are tougher to advise you on. If you want to have disarm/trip/dirty trick as options, starting with combat expertise and improved x might not be a bad option. I'm quite partial to disarm, but understand it (and trip) are very situational. Dirty Trick is always solid.
Have you considered your spell choices yet?
Starting at 4th level
18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 14
If you're really serious about two-weapon fighting, I'd recommend:
Half-Orc Fighter 1/Bard (Arcane Duelist) 3
20 Str (+2 race), 16 Dex (+1 advancement), 14 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha
Feats: Arcane Strike*, Combat Casting*, Dazzling Display (Orc Double Axe), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe)*
*- bonus feats
Half-orc for the +2 bonus on Intimidate checks. Fighter for proficiency with all martial weapons (half-orcs treat the orc double axe as martial) and the bonus feat; also, you can wear a mithral breastplate (light armor) before bard 10th and mithral full plate (medium armor) on reaching 10th without worrying about non-proficiency penalties. Dazzling Display to make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents in 30 ft. You do lose one level of caster progression (if you use traits, take Magical Knack to keep your caster level from being reduced) and pick up the rest of the bard abilities one level later, but you're better in melee.
For future progression, I'd go with:
B4- Power Attack
B6- Disruptive*, Double Slice
B7- +1 Dex
B8- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
B10- Discordant Voice (Ultimate Combat), Spellbreaker*
all remaining advancements in Cha
Are you looking to be a team Buffing bard if so both seem workable? If you just want to be a combatant why not look at battle dancer bard from UC?
Are you looking to be a team Buffing bard if so both seem workable? If you just want to be a combatant why not look at battle dancer bard from UC?
We are a large group (6 to 9 players depending on who shows up) so I was leaning more team buffing. I looked at the battle dancer, but it isn't really what I am looking for.
Right now I am leaning towards either the Half-Orc intimidator with a Falchion, or a Human with a longsword (Two-handed or sword and board as the situation merits). I was kinda thinking this:
Human Bard level 3/ Fighter 1
str 20 (+2 racial)
dex 14
con 16 (+1 level)
int 14
wis 12
cha 18
HB Weapon Focus (longsword)
FB Dazzling Display (longsword)
1st Power Attack
3rd (bard 2) Lingering Performance
Would pick up the magical knack trait, and one that adds to intimidate. I don't want to use a scimitar (mainly because two other members of the party are) I know the longsword isn't the most optimal choice, but it isn't bad and hardly anyone in my group ever uses it.
I can go sword and board if I want or switch to two handed when I want to do some more damage. Any other weapon suggestions would be nice.
Spell wise, I am still feeling them out. But will most likely pick as I go, and use treantmonk's sugestions.
Though I am not sure if I want to give up any levels of Bard.
You can also do this with quarterstaff and not require a fighter dip, or be a half elf and get any double weapon in place of skill focus.If you're really serious about two-weapon fighting, I'd recommend:
Half-Orc Fighter 1/Bard (Arcane Duelist) 3
20 Str (+2 race), 16 Dex (+1 advancement), 14 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha
Feats: Arcane Strike*, Combat Casting*, Dazzling Display (Orc Double Axe), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe)*
*- bonus feats
Quarterstaff (1d6/20, 1d6/20) vs. orc double axe (1d8/x3, 1d8/x3). Also, being able to wear a mithral breastplate without the non-proficiency penalty before bard 10 helps AC (and the ability to run around at bard 10 in mithral full plate is even better).
Half-elf loses out on the Intimidate bonus (especially if you take Ancestral Arms instead of Adaptability); also, the half-orc can take Sacred Tattoo (+1 on all saves) or Toothy (1d4 bite attack; giving three attacks on a full-attack action) in place of Orc Ferocity. The extra rounds of bardic performance are a stronger draw for half-elf, IMO.
Magician isn't like other bards. He doesn't do damage that multiplies with the number of people making weapon attacks. He doesn't boost himself to nearly the accuracy of a full BAB character. He's a sorceror wannabe with d8 HD and the ability to wear light armor. If you want to be a caster and your GM targets casters he has potential. If you're doing a themed party (eg. all bards) he may fit in. Otherwise I think he's for NPCs.
Ya I have decided on the Arcane Duelist, but I don't agree as much on the Magician only being for NPC's.
Especially with acess to the summoner's spell list. But it is less than ideal with having to give up Inspire Courage.
Are you looking to be a team Buffing bard if so both seem workable? If you just want to be a combatant why not look at battle dancer bard from UC?
Is the battle dancer actually all that better than the arcane duelist in combat, btw?
As I see it, the duelist sacrifices skill monkey goodness for better melee abilities. While I'm not sure it gets as much as it sacrifices, if you want to play a warrior bard and don't mind losing some of the skill support, it's the archetype you need to look at.
Right now I am leaning towards either the Half-Orc intimidator with a Falchion, or a Human with a longsword (Two-handed or sword and board as the situation merits).
Half-Orc Bard (Arcane Duelist) 4
Str 20 (+2 race), 14 Dex, 16 Con (+1 advancement), 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 ChaAlternate Racial Trait: Sacred Tattoo (replaces Orc Ferocity)
Traits: Bully, Killer
Feats: Arcane Strike*, Combat Casting*, Extra Performance, Weapon Focus (Falchion); Dazzling Display would be your next feat choice
*- bonus feats
Optionally, you may wish to consider a tripping bard: Use the stats as above, but with the alternate racial trait Chain Fighter and the feats Combat Expertise and Improved Trip; weapon of choice is a flail or heavy flail.
For the human sword and board, how about:
Human Fighter 1/Bard (Arcane Duelist) 3
Str 20 (+2 race), 16 Dex (+1 advancement), 14 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha
Alternate Racial Trait: Heart of the Streets (replaces Skilled)
Traits: Magical Knack (Bard), Vagabond Child (Disable Device)
Feats: Arcane Strike*, Combat Casting*, Dazzling Display (Longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword)*
*- bonus feats
This character can (with high Disable Device and Perception) deal with locks and traps, as well as fight; if this doesn't work with the rest of the group, then replace Vagabond Child with another trait (like Bully). A quickdraw light shield is a must (consider the Quick Draw feat and a +x bashing quickdraw light shield as soon as you can afford it).
Though I am not sure if I want to give up any levels of Bard.
It's a tough choice. However, the fighter bonus feat helps a lot in realizing the concept and several feats you may want (Power Attack, Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display) require a +1 BAB. For a bard, one level isn't too bad, since spells are only part of the class and gaining the other class abilities one level later is only a slight hit (IMO, of course).
Are you looking to be a team Buffing bard if so both seem workable? If you just want to be a combatant why not look at battle dancer bard from UC?Is the battle dancer actually all that better than the arcane duelist in combat, btw?
I actually think they are close, the built in haste for battle dancer MAY give a slight edge (its iffy) I just wasn't sure if being able to buff the party was in anyway desirable the the arc. duellist. brings more toys for the rest of the class
Inspire Courage is basically what lets a bard engage in combat and actually hit stuff. Without it you're as good at combat as a summoner. How many non-synthesist summoners do you see built for combat?
Some of the non-inspiring bards are useful, but they fill rogue duty, not bard duty. The sorceror is better than the magician at the magician's strengths. Magician is better if d6 HD is unacceptable or if someone else is buffing you enough to be a gish. Full casters usually are acceptable in PC parties and multi-bard parties aren't terribly common.
Heroism is a 2nd-level bard spell, as is rage. Even without Inspire Courage, the bard does pretty well at buffing. Using Expanded Repetoire to pick up enlarge person (1st-level sorcerer/wizard or summoner spell) at bard 2 and bull's strength (2nd-level sorcerer/wizard or summoner spell) or false life (2nd-level sorcerer/wizard spell) at bard 6, before gaining haste (3rd-level bard spell) at bard 7, helps fill in some of the gaps in the bard's spell list.
The magician archetype can fill other roles. For instance, using Expanded Repetoire to pick up magic missile, scorching ray, etc. can let the bard act as a blaster; ray of enfeeblement, web, black tentacles, etc. help the bard do better as a controller/debuffer. A magician bard isn't trying to be better than a dedicated primary caster at casting spells, but rather be able to fill in at casting spells a bard normally can't, while still retaining many of the bard class abilities.
I've been looking at the arcane duelist as an archer for a bit now. The new feats Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot (15' threat radius with a bow) along with combat reflexes would pretty much give you a total lockdown utility guy. Specifically Disruptive and Spellbreaker, which enhance your ability to interrupt casters, are drastically improved by a 15' threat radius.
Moreover, even if you spend your round positioning yourself and casting or getting your song going you still present a massive issue for any enemy who needs to move. 15' threat radius is no joke.
There are issues with feats of course, so you're stuck playing human in the build I devised.
1 - (Arcane Strike) PBS Precise
2 - (Combat Casting)
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Deadly Aim
6 - (Disruptive)
7 - Combat Reflexes
9 - Manyshot
10- (SpellBreaker)
11- Snap Shot
13- Improved snap shot
14- (Penetrating Strike)
It's a little slow getting there, but you're mainly support with the solid damage from archery anyway. He'll play pretty normal for the first while but later on he blows up with that threat range.
Though I am not sure if I want to give up any levels of Bard.
I wouldn't. In fact, I'd seriously advise otherwise. All you lose as a Bard/4 is Lingering Performance, which'll be all yours next level. In exchange? Second level spells.
Now... Pair Dazzling Display (-2 to saves with Shaken), use in the surprise round... With Glitterdust. It'll be tricky to pull off, but it will end the fight.
I've always steered away from dazzling display on bards.
It's great and all, but its a fairly big feat investment (especially if you're a non human) and just around the corner is the far superior (in my opinion) dirge of doom.
Unfortunately, you have to wait for 8th level, and you lose out on inspire courage while you use it. It won't be in play all of the time. But shaken, no save, as a move action? With no ABSOLUTELY feat investment? Could be worth the wait, is all I'm saying. Pop it up during the first round and drop a spell then switch to inspire courage after that. Have your party drop all of their save-or-suck spells and move in for the kill.
I dont see that you have any reason to use Dazzling Display past 8th level. Go ahead and prove me wrong, though. Please. This thread has been very enlightening so far.
Edit: Oooh, nice stuff, Lastoth. Shame about the feat tax. I'd love to turn it into a gnome crossbowman.
Edit: Oooh, nice stuff, Lastoth. Shame about the feat tax. I'd love to turn it into a gnome crossbowman.
Thank you, you can probably remove Rapid Shot, it's "only" giving you one more attack for all of them to be -2 and you have to assume that as the bard you're going to get fewer full attacks.
The higher level you are the better the spells get and thus the less you'll full attack between performance, movement to get into position to best bone the badguys with your reach, and those all important spells. You should end up with 6-8 AOOs no problem, so I doubt the rapid shot is that big of a deal to miss. The other problem you have though is that you won't be able to use this build with a crossbow without working up a way to reload it for free, which I think is a number of feats.
Shortbow is a stock proficiency and only one damage less than longbow on average though!
Edit: My favorite part of this build is actually the fact that it doesn't need to full attack and that it focuses on moving up and supporting with buffs and performance. If you position well (and possibly have party members who push badguys around in your threat radius) you should be able to dispense nearly a full attack worth of AOOs every round in many fights in addition to the support you provide.
Sadly in dungeons your party members will block line of sight to your enemies in many cases and your AOO torrent will become a trickle (cover negates AOOs).
I've always steered away from dazzling display on bards.
It's great and all, but its a fairly big feat investment (especially if you're a non human) and just around the corner is the far superior (in my opinion) dirge of doom.
Unfortunately, you have to wait for 8th level, and you lose out on inspire courage while you use it. It won't be in play all of the time. But shaken, no save, as a move action? With no ABSOLUTELY feat investment? Could be worth the wait, is all I'm saying. Pop it up during the first round and drop a spell then switch to inspire courage after that. Have your party drop all of their save-or-suck spells and move in for the kill.
I dont see that you have any reason to use Dazzling Display past 8th level. Go ahead and prove me wrong, though. Please. This thread has been very enlightening so far.
Good catch on the Dirge of Doom. I hadn't even noticed that. You are right unless I don't plan on making it past 7th level, Dazzling Display is a waste. (though weapon focus is nice but by no means nessacary)
So instead back to Bard 4
At first level Lingering Performance and Toughness? Then take Power Attack at 3rd?
I would stick with human for a bard just for the extra spells from favored class. Even extra 0 level spells can help.
I meant the group is very melee focused. Inspire Courage would mean a lot to them.
I intend to be a support character, that can step in and fight effectvly when it is needed.
Is there any other ways to get arcane bond without Arcane Duelist. I have been thinking of staying straight Bard, and just taking Arcane Strike as a feat.
The Arcane Bond isn't the best ability, but I like the idea of it.
I could go straight Human Bard 4
1st Arcane Strike
HB Lingering Performance
3rd Power Attack
Redarding Dirge of Doom:
It's nice, but 1) you have to wait until 8th level bard and 2) it uses rounds of Bardic Performance. Dazzling Display can be gained earlier and used without restriction.
Also, while Dirge of Doom "cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked," Dazzling Display doesn't have that restriction. Use Dirge of Doom as a move action (7th+ level bard) to make them shaken and then Dazzling Display as a standard action in the same round to make them frightened; a very effective 1-2 combo. See pg. 563 of the Core Rulebook.
Is there any other ways to get arcane bond without Arcane Duelist.
The Eldritch Heritage feat, selecting the Arcane bloodline. Eldritch Heritage can be found in Ultimate Magic.
Inspire Courage is basically what lets a bard engage in combat and actually hit stuff. Without it you're as good at combat as a summoner. How many non-synthesist summoners do you see built for combat?
Some of the non-inspiring bards are useful, but they fill rogue duty, not bard duty. The sorceror is better than the magician at the magician's strengths. Magician is better if d6 HD is unacceptable or if someone else is buffing you enough to be a gish. Full casters usually are acceptable in PC parties and multi-bard parties aren't terribly common.
I don't think you're reading the same Magician archetype that I, and others, are.
Spell Suppression is decent (especially if you start it before combat), and Metamagic Mastery is awesome.
Magical Talent is phenomenal. You will pretty much always make your spellcraft, knowledge arcana, and UMD checks with this.
Expanded Repertoire is great. Why yes, I did in fact want Create Demiplane and Permenancy. Or any number of usually divine spells taken from the Witch's spell list?
They get an arcane bond.
Wand Mastery is amazing.
You're stuck with the idea that the bard must be a buffer. That's not the case. Even the magician can be am amazing buffer if there's one other arcane caster in the party. Keep up Dweomercraft and Arcane Concordance and watch as your ally's spells are nigh unstoppable. That god wizard will love you for letting him get +1 to his DCs, much better chance of beating SR (which is notoriously hard to boost), and enlarged. For free!
Redarding Dirge of Doom:
It's nice, but 1) you have to wait until 8th level bard and 2) it uses rounds of Bardic Performance. Dazzling Display can be gained earlier and used without restriction.
Also, while Dirge of Doom "cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked," Dazzling Display doesn't have that restriction. Use Dirge of Doom as a move action (7th+ level bard) to make them shaken and then Dazzling Display as a standard action in the same round to make them frightened; a very effective 1-2 combo. See pg. 563 of the Core Rulebook.
Few things: Dazzling Display is a full-round action. That's a huge problem with it.
Also, here's a line from intimidate, which Dazzling Display uses:
This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened.
Can't use it to increase fear level.
Finally, Dirge of Doom has no save.
Actually if you take into account the Summoners spell list you can have Haste earlier can't you. It is a 2nd level spell on the summoner's list.
Quite a few spells like that.
If the group I am playing in wasn't so melee focused (in fact the only other caster's in the group of 8 are a summoner, an oracle and a magus) I would still seriously consider a Magician. But with a bunch of fighters, monks, and rangers running around Inspire Courage is much better.
Few things: Dazzling Display is a full-round action. That's a huge problem with it.Redarding Dirge of Doom:
It's nice, but 1) you have to wait until 8th level bard and 2) it uses rounds of Bardic Performance. Dazzling Display can be gained earlier and used without restriction.
Also, while Dirge of Doom "cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked," Dazzling Display doesn't have that restriction. Use Dirge of Doom as a move action (7th+ level bard) to make them shaken and then Dazzling Display as a standard action in the same round to make them frightened; a very effective 1-2 combo. See pg. 563 of the Core Rulebook.
So it is. I must have been conflating it with Terrifying Howl or the demoralize action.
Also, here's a line from intimidate, which Dazzling Display uses:
This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened.Can't use it to increase fear level.
<does research>
Damn errata. They really need to update the PRD entry.
Except it's not retaining the bard's signature ability. The bard without inspire courage is hardly better than a wizard or buffing sorceror would be at buffing. Heroism is later than a wizard, Haste is later than either. So is Enlarge since you have to wait for expanded repertoire. You'd be better at surviving, so if you can't trust your front line magician is better than wizard or sorceror. If you can I don't see it cutting it in comparison. I suppose I'd rather play a magician in PFS if I played PFS.Heroism is a 2nd-level bard spell, as is rage. Even without Inspire Courage, the bard does pretty well at buffing. Using Expanded Repetoire to pick up enlarge person (1st-level sorcerer/wizard or summoner spell) at bard 2 and bull's strength (2nd-level sorcerer/wizard or summoner spell) or false life (2nd-level sorcerer/wizard spell) at bard 6, before gaining haste (3rd-level bard spell) at bard 7, helps fill in some of the gaps in the bard's spell list.
The magician archetype can fill other roles. For instance, using Expanded Repetoire to pick up magic missile, scorching ray, etc. can let the bard act as a blaster; ray of enfeeblement, web, black tentacles, etc. help the bard do better as a controller/debuffer. A magician bard isn't trying to be better than a dedicated primary caster at casting spells, but rather be able to fill in at casting spells a bard normally can't, while still retaining many of the bard class abilities.
The bard's "signature ability" is Inspire Courage? Really? The class has nothing else to offer but to stay in the back and use Bardic Performance to give a slight bonus on attack and damage rolls? I guess all clerics are just "heal-bots," too? [/sarcasm]
Instead of making the combatants better with Inspire Courage, the magician bard makes the spellcasters better with Dweomercraft. Improved Counterspell in place of Countersong means the magician bard can also "block" enemy spellcasting pretty effectively.
A bard can take heroism at 4th level (2nd-level bard spell), one level before the wizard (3rd-level sorcerer/wizard spell). Hideous laughter is also a 1st-level bard spell instead of a 2nd-level wizard spell. How many 1st/2nd level wizards actually prepare enlarge person instead of color spray, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement or sleep? Yes, you have to wait until 2nd level to take it as a magician bard, but you're also more likely to use it (possibly on yourself, since you can act as a combatant). As far as haste goes, the magician bard gains it at the same time as the sorcerer/dragon disciple.
Again, the "magician bard isn't trying to be better than a dedicated primary caster at casting spells, but rather be able to fill in at casting spells a bard normally can't;" if nothing else, the bard lacks the spell slots to be a pure caster.
Yeah... I like Magician alot, even if you want to develop ´melee´(/archery) more than Casting.
(your Caster Level is the same whether or not your CHA modifier is maxed out)
They lose some performances, but the instant action Dispel is awesome...
Removing/Counter-Spelling enemy spells is something that perhaps isn´t done enough because of the action cost, but this way it´s practically free to do so... The normal performance bonuses can somewhat be replicated by your spells (and other party members) if necessary, which if you are cancelling out enemy spells with your Dispel, ends up working out decently good. The Caster Check boosts really become noticeable vs. SR and when dealing with stuff like Grappled.
Eldritch Heritage, and/or a 1 level dip in Sorceror for the dual-Bloodline archetype, is nice for a Familiar,
as well as several Bloodlines expanding mind-effecting/humanoid-targetting spells to Undead, Animals, Monstrous Humanoids, etc.
The recommendation to look at Summoner and Witch spells is also great vis-a-vis the expanded repertoire ability.
I like combining this with Caster Level progressing PrC´s since you can dip back into the Magician to gain the Expanded Repertoire spells at the higher spell levels the PrC has opened up... Interesting option with something like Dragon Disciple.
The Arcane Bond isn't the best ability, but I like the idea of it.
Yes it is. Seriously. Those free craft feats are a gift from on high for my group, where getting proper gear has always been a problem. This puts staves and rings of wizardry on the table when we'd never have DREAMED of getting something that nice.
Is there any other ways to get arcane bond without Arcane Duelist.The Eldritch Heritage feat, selecting the Arcane bloodline. Eldritch Heritage can be found in Ultimate Magic.
Oooooh. You just made my day. :P
Anyway, perhaps all of this bickering in here is making this harder than it has to be. Arcane Duelist gives you some great bonus feats you wouldnt be able to use otherwise, but you have to decide if the rest is worth losing bardic knowledge. I say yes, its worth it. But a human bard can probably say no, thanks to that wonderful bonus feat of theirs.
There's been some fantastic spell advice above, and I've taken my first look at the magician (love expanded repetoir, not so big on the bardic music replacements).
For later feats, I'd reccomend either Cleave, Deadly Aim (to boost your ranged attacks onto par), Step Up or something for your spells, extend or spell focus, or maybe lingering song if you skipped it.
... gods, I'm only making this harder, aren't I? :P
Well, since the OP stated he was mostly interested in a melee build, I would recommend Arcane Duelist... however, on looking closer at things I have changed my mind on a build MANY times in the past... so if it helps (hope so), I will do a run down on the Magician archetype as well.
- Bardic Performance -
- Dweomercraft -
Replaces Inspire Courage... big red flag on the play with that. This is generally thought of as one of the best bardic abilities, but lets take a look at what we gain.
So instead of get a +X competence bonus on attack and damage rolls (notice this is any attack, including spells that require rolls to hit), and a +X morale bonus on saves vs charms and fear effects, you get to give a +Y bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell like abilities.
The abilities scale up at different rates (X vs Y), but I don't think the rate difference is a huge factor here. The bigger deal is that the typical party will be making a LOT more rolls to hit and damage than will there be caster level or concentration checks. For this reason I have to give this ability the big thumbs down... it is less useful that the ability it replaces.
Also, you mention that your group is pretty melee heavy already, so this will be even MORE true for your group. Inspire Courage is one of the best buffs in the game... it is tough to lose it.
- Spell Supression -
I really, really want to like this ability, but I think the mechanics just make it a bit tough to really meet it's full potential. That said, it replaces dirge of doom, so I think you will find it likely that you would get more, or at least superior, use out of this ability.
The upside is that it is a special immediate action to use, so you can easily bust it out when you need it (as long as you had already been performing this antispell performance and not doing something else useful)... the bad news is that it only affects spells of a level equal to or lower than the number of rounds that you have been performing bardic music already.
So you get this ability at 8th level when things will be casting 4th level spells pretty easily. NPCs don't have a bunch of encounters per day and are likely to bust out their best spells right at the beginning of combat... not 4 rounds into the combat... so you can't stop them. If they are kind enough to cast a 1st level spell the 1st round, a 2nd level spell the second round, etc., then you will own them... it is just not likely to go that route. In fact most combats won't even last long enough for you to stop their best spells.
Since Dirge of Doom IS useful in combat, I am going to have to say that it will be useful more often than this due to mechanics of the ability. So... thumbs down again.
- Metamagic Master-
This is a pretty hot ability. It lets you apply metamagic to your spells with out increasing the casting time. It replaces frightening tune which is good, but this is as well. However, depending on your bard build you will do a fair bit of casting not in combat anyway (extended buffs, etc.), so this doesn't really help much in those cases. You also get it pretty late in the game (14th lvl), so while I think it is a fine, or perhaps even good, trade for what it replaces, I don't think it is enough to make up for the bad trades earlier you had to pay through.
- Magical Talent-
Replaces Bardic Knowledge... which as I reported previously I hate to lose, BUT this ability gives 1/2 your level as a bonus to Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. The Spellcraft is necessary for checks with spell supression, so that's good, but you would be likely to make those checks if you were maxing the skill anyway. What makes this HOT, HOT, HOT, is the UMD skill. It is probably the best skill in the game, but has some high checks to make. This ability lets you add 1/2 your bard class levels to this check... you now really are the best buffer in the game as you can use buffs happily from any spell list if it is in a magic item.
Improved Counterspell - A bonus feat instead of countersong (a really situational ability that rarely gets used in most games). That's nice... but counterspelling is tough in this game (unless it changed significantly from 3.5 and I am not aware of it), and generally it is better to just hit them hard or help your allies hit them hard and force a concentration check to cast. Still, replaces something that doesn't get much use, so it is fine.
(also, as a bard you don't have spells of every school, and you are casting spells below the max spell level of a wizard you are fighting... so even optimally you aren't a great counterspeller.)
- Extended Performance -
This replaces Well Versed, a very situational and not that impressive ability with a really, really good on. This is HOT too... I like it a lot. Still, it specifically calls out that you can't use it with things like Spell Suppression, so it is still in an archetype that loses the ability (inspire courage) that this would be best with... Great substitution though.
- Expanded Repertiore -
Getting extra spells known is actually a really good thing. However, you are losing out on stuff that makes you a master of skills. I will call this one about an equal trade.
- Arcane Bond -
No weapons, no familiars... so you have an item... means more spell casting... the ability to use any spell you know as this spell isn't as big a deal for a spontaneous caster as it is for a caster who has to memorize, still an extra spell of any level is a nice thing. Replaces Lore Master which, well, could be replaced by a spell so it is a good trade.
- Wand Mastery -
This is HOT, HOT, HOT... a very good trade and a very good ability. It's too bad the archetype makes you so good at UMD but this ability only works with spells on your list. Still, a VERY good ability.
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In closing, I am not real impressed with this archetype, though it isn't totally bad. Most of the abilities that I like though can be gotten in other ways while keeping the inspire courage ability. For example, be a human with favored class and you can basically get expanded repertoire, I *think* I remember a feat for the wand thing (though it may have been a wizard ability), Skill Focus can bump up your UMD nicely, and Lingering Performance can get your songs to go longer than normal.
Anyway... if you are looking for a spellcasting specialist who buffs others spellcasting ability then take a good look. But if you and your group are looking to melee and buff up melee I would take a wide berth around this one.
Sean Mahoney
I want to think everyone for thier advice. Lots of good stuff here.
I will post the compelte build when I finally get it all worked out.