Ironbar's page

I really need advice on outfitting a Master Summoner. I am 5th level human and have 29,000 gp to spend.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

You might consider taking longbow proficiency

That is something I hadn't thought of. Has anyone of you ever tried something like this?

So seems like everything looks good then?

I know that Spell Focus: Conjuration isn't needed for Augment Summoning for the Master Summoner, but it still seems like a solid feat, since there are several Conjuration Spells with a rider on them. (and honestly I can't really figure out what else to take.) Any Suggestion there?

Coffee: I don't expect there to be much problem with the Summons, we are looking more at the role play aspect and the combat will be more free form and descriptive than mechanical. But that is a good suggestion and I definatly will do that.

rkraus2: Definetly want UMD, and a spattering of languages. Diplomacy is one I hadn't considered, what about Spellcraft, and Knowledge skills?

Anyone?

Putting together a Master Summoner for a game friend is running. And just wanted to run it by you guys:

Starting at level 1. Human race is required (but I can use any of the alternate racial traits), and Stats were rolled in some way that I am unsure of but I have: 18, 17, 16, 14, 13, 12.

Heres what I got:

Izzacarr As'rael- NG Human Master Summoner 1

Str 13
Con 16
Dex 17
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 20 (+2 racial)

Traits: Reactionary (+2 Iniative)
not decided on the other maybe Latent Psion (+2 vs Mind effecting abilites).

Feats: Improved Iniative
Spell Focus: Conjuration (undecided)??

Skills: Some advice on skills would be great. I would assume UMD, Spellcraft, K:Arcana, maybe some languages.

My Edilon is Tidbit:

Small Biped (limbs x2, claws) Free. Skilled x3: UMD, Perception, Stealth

We will be trying out some home brewed squad based combat rules so A master summoner won't take to much away the others, I would just be a squad to myself laff. And from what I have been told the other four players sats are equally outrageous so no worries there.

I feel like I could pretty much take anything and be ok, but I would like to know what the board thinks. I picture Izzacarr as a battlefield stratigest, that can mix it up if he has too, but prefers to let his summons and spells handle it. I can picture him seeing a battlefield as a oversized game of Archon (loved that game back in the day.)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bangor Kneecapper

I love longsword on my Paladins. Mainly for the versatility. If I want to 2H I'm good. If I feel I need the ac, then I ready my shield and am good to go.

It just feels right. But its really more preference for me.

wraithstrike wrote:

You are correct. It does not say you can choose more than one totem. I guess it was extrapolated because the barbarian is based completely upon his totem powers, but that does not mean you can choose more than one totem.

Edit:That means the archetype is useless though if it does not do anything. It seems that either way there is an issue with it.

Good catch.

When Totem Warrior was originally written, it did absolutely nothing.

Then Ultimate Combat came out and buffed it without adding any drawback.

Quote:

Rage Powers: Any barbarian who meets the powers' prerequisites can select and use the following new rage powers. Totem rage powers grant powers related to a theme. A barbarian cannot select from more than one group of totem rage powers; for example, a barbarian who selects a beast totem rage power (see the Advanced Player's Guide) cannot later choose to gain any of the dragon totem rage powers (any rage power with “dragon totem” in its title), unless she has the totem warrior archetype.

I'm glad UC did it; restricting Barbs to one totem only was a dumb restriction and basically meant every totem power they printed was a waste of space cause no way in hell is anything else worth losing pounce over. (blah blah blah, synthesist can pounce at level 1, stop complaining about barbarian getting it at 10, blah blah blah...)

Thanks Stream. Hadn't. Seen that, good to know.

wraithstrike wrote:

By RAW DH is correct, and I have nothing to disagree with him, but I was hoping for either errata or a reason to not always go with the Totem barbarian if you never lose anything. It does not even make sense to call it an archetype if its free since the point of an archetype is to trade things out. I noticed it a while back, but I just keep forgetting to make a thread on it. I would just rather have errata that gets rid of the false restriction on totems. The only thing I can think of is that if a class gets access to barbarian rage powers, like one of the ranger archetypes does, they want to make the barbarian the king of totems.

I'm looking at Totem Warrior Barbarian, and it's true you don't lose anything. You also don't gain anything either I always thought it was a type-o that they left out the archtype benefits.

Ya was looking at it also. Don't see anything about being able to take more than one totem. (Checked my book, PRD, and pfSRD) was it addressed elsewhere because I admittedly rarely looked at the errata.

Ah, my bad

Duex unless I am mistaken you Barb build is illegal. You cant have two totems.

Thanks for the advice and good catch on piranna strike. I just missed that.

The trait threatening defender reduces the penalty for fighting defensively by 1 that is how I got it down to -1 there.

Thanks fir the tip on two-weapon fighting. I was getting a bit concerned at the negatives stacking up.

Ok so I have put together a build through level 8. Take a look.

Courynn Telstener LN Male Elf Duelist 1/Lorewarden 5/ Master of the Sacred Mountain Many Styles 2 (stacked Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Used the ARG option to trade Keen Sense and Weapon Familiarity for Fleet Footed (+2 Iniative and Run Feat)and thinking about trading Elven Magic for Envoy (not great, but does give me a couple of spell like abilities that might find use)

Str 12
Dex 21 (+2 racial, +2 from Level)
Con 13 (-2 racial)
Int 16 (+2 racial)
Wis 16
Cha 10

Traits: Threatening Defender, Warrior of Old

1st) Lorewarden 1: Dodge, Bonus Feat:Weapon Finesse

2nd) MoMS/MoSM 1:Fuse Style, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike (1d6) Wisdom to AC, Bouns Feat: Crane Style

3rd) MoMS/MoSM 2: Mobility, Bonus Feat: Crane Wing, Bonus Feat: Toughness, +1 Natrual AC

4th) LoreWarden 2: Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise, Bonus Feat: Piranna Strike

5th) LoreWarden 3: Manuver Mastery +2, Improved Trip

6th) LoreWarden 4: Bonus Feat: Two Weapon Fighting

7th) Lorewarden 5: Weapon Training (Light Blades) Snake Style

8th) Duelist 1: Canny Defense, Precise Strike +1

At 3rd Level (campaign starting point) I would have:

+6 to hit, 1d6+1(18-20x2) damage (rapier)
20 ac (24 when figting defensively, for -1 to hit)) with the ability to deflect one attack per round. (+1 from Haramaki Armor,

Damage is a bit low, but GM has made it clear that an Agile Weapon will be in my forseeable future.

When I enter Duelist at 8th level:

+12/+7 to hit 1d6+11(18-20x2)damage (+1 agile rapier, -2/+4 Piranna Strike).
Can toss in an Unarmed strike for -2 to all attacks for another 1d6+6. (4 from piranna strike, 1 from str, 1 from precise strike,) but the two weapon fighting is mainly there to give me an attack to use to parry with later.

23 AC (27 when fighting defensively, 29 if I want to tack on Combatexpertise) with out any magic items. (+1 dodge, +1 Natural Armor, +5 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 Int)

Saves will be +8 Fort/ +10 Reflex/ +7 Will (+9 vs Enchantments). Again before any magic items.

We roll two dice and keep the highest for HP's but the average would be around 60 (+1 hp from favored class for the 5 Fighter levels.

All in all looks pretty solid to me. Any comments, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Still unsure about the two weapon fighting route and improved trip.

The extra feat would be a reason to go six I guess. But honestly it was a mistake. Meant to say five levels of Lorewarden.

Just out of curiosity how would you Stat and level him out Oterisk?

Your right about the combat feats, but with two levels of master of many styles/monk of the sacred mountains I get:

Improved Unarmed Strike (with a higher base damage)
Toughness (making up for the lower hit die, not great but good)
And 2 style feats (+ the ability to use them both at the same time)

That's 4 feats (all really good) and all the other monk goodies vs 1 combat feats and +1 attack bonus from fighter.

I was thinking monk for the bonus style feats, the save bump, wis to ac (giving me dex, int, and wis to ac) and if I am not mistaken Monk of the Sacred mountain stacks giving a +1 natural armorial ac.

That puts me ahead on ac, saves, and feats for the cost of +1 attack bonus and a couple hps.

After reading Oterisk's Duelist guide I really want to give one a try and would like to get some help from these forums.

We have a favorable Stat Set (17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10) and can expect a lot ofntough encounters.

I was thinking two levels of Master of many Styles and Six levels of Lore Warden fighter. Followed out with all of duelist and finished with fighter if we make it that high.

Leaning towards Elf or Half-elf and using a raipier or dagger (dervish dance has been overdone in my group and just as a manner of taste I want to avoid it. GM already said an agile weapon wont be to hard to find.)

I figured the levels of MoMS would be used to pick up Crane Style and Snake Style and would come at levels 2 and 3.

So basically any advice or even builds would be great. I always run into trouble when I start laying stuff out on paper.

This will be a Skull and Shackles game but we are starting at level 3. And all Pazio books are allowed, third party stuff has to be run by the GM.

Thanks in advance.

What I should have said was since trait bonuses don't stack.

You could also rule that trait bonuses don't stack. Thus only one of them counts towards the groups score.

Not familiar with wisdom of the flesh but will look it up. I was considering dirty fighter and birthmark.

Well stats aren't set. And I am seriously considering switching str
Dex and Wis.

And ya half-orc would be good, I am pretty well Locked into human. I plan on using a sword and buckler so I can go 2 hand or sword and shield.

You can't take judgment sure until you get judgment twice per day.

Ahhh, completely missed that, thanks. Any suggestions on what to take instead. Power Attack is going to be my level 3 feat for sure. Other than that I'm kinda up in the air.

Started a new campaign last night and am looking for advice on my Inquisitor. It is a home brew world and the rest of the group consists of a Wilder, Wizard, Titan Mauler Barbarian, Magus, and my Inquisitor.

Will go ahead and warn ya now stats are high, some crazy system of rolling was used where the average comes out to 14 or so, and my stats will be on par with the rest of the group.

I want to play a melee build, with skill monkey thrown in, and am afraid that I will turn into the healer. Nothing is set in stone yet and we are starting from level 1.

Inquisitor 1 Domain:Investigation (Exploration renamed)

Human (kinda non negotiable)

Str 17
Dex 19 (racial bonus here)
Con 15
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 13

Diety's weapon is Longsword (this is still negotiable, home brew world, Monotheists, Human saints are the patrons of the different orders and where the favored weapon come from.)

Feats:
Judgment Surge
Improved Iniative

Like I said nothing is set yet and I would love recommendations on feats, skills and stat placement. Thanks

OUTRAGEOUS!! Seriously though, you don't have to be evil to play a cockatrice cav. Just try and take all the credit and brag yourself up a lot. Sounds slot like aquaman b&b to me.

(well not exactly, A Cockatrice Cav would be a little more mercenary)

Order of the cockatrice cav.

Cheapy do you mind throwing out your thoughts on the Archeologist archetype? The more I look at it the more I like, and was just wanting to hear your detailed opinion on it.

Yay Cheapy. I have been waiting for this since you posted the three and half melee post. Awesome stuff. Thanks!

JMD031 wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.

Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)

Nope, they both replace bardic knowledge.

The reason for street performer is so you can make your brother invisible, right?

And don't listen to chris :-P Tomorrow, I shall show you how to shine.

Because you are a bard. You deserve to be awesome.

+1 Listen to Cheapy don't let anyone try to convince you that a Bard is a second class character. You can outshine all the rest of the group and make them love you for it, because you are buffing them at the same time.

Dela wrote:

Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)

But the Sylvan bloodline replaces the Bloodline Arcana as well as the 1st level bloodline power, and the Eldritch Heritage feat gives you the power only.

Not sure that matters. The animal companion is listed as a 1st level bloodline power (which eldritch heritage grants). I don't see why that wouldn't work.

Ironbar wrote:

I don't really care for point buys, though I don't hate them. I have begun to lean more towards a standard stat block, and let the players arrange them as they wish.

So everybody gets the same array -- them nobody's screwed on starting stats. It could be six 18s or six 8s or anything else inbetween, but everyone is even.

Quote:

But anytime I mention anything besides rolling to the group (most of the time after they complain about my openly rolled stats) they all protest and start telling how rolling is a tradition and nessacary to give character.

Well, I guess if moping and whining until you die and have to make a new PC is "character".

If your players are used to high-powered, min/max characters, in your new campaign try 30pt "uber-fantasy" with everyone starting with the same 18/15/14/14/10/07 stat-array (pre-racial).

Exactly, but just can't get them past rolling.

I did say we were an older group, not that we had the most mature people.

*grandpa voice* "Bah back in my day we didn't have any of this point stuff. We rolled 3d6 in order and liked it mister!" *end grandpa voice*

Ya every so often someone in the group will still sugest we do that.

Fine. Next game YOU get four 11s, a 9 and a 12, while everything else gets 16s and up.

Rolled stats suck because someone at the table is going to be stuck with stats that are worse after leveling up to 20th and dropping a fortune on Tomes as some other player will have 1st. If the DM says reroll sucky stacks -- then you might as just do point-buy anyway.

I like to roll, but the dice are usually good to me. That said we have one guy (the DM now) that the dice tend to hate. And he does usually end up moping around till he dies and tries again.

I don't really care for point buys, though I don't hate them. I have begun to lean more towards a standard stat block, and let the players arrange them as they wish. Maybe with a bit of tweaking here and there (dropping a couple points out of one stat to add to another type thing).

But anytime I mention anything besides rolling to the group (most of the time after they complain about my openly rolled stats) they all protest and start telling how rolling is a tradition and nessacary to give character.

We are an older group that started gaming together pretty much weekly since '96. All of us have been gaming since the early 90's and a few of us even longer.

We have recently turned to Pathfinder while we have set aside our 16+ year campaign for a time.

That is a good, solid halfling barbarian. Halflings are just as good as gnomes with your stats, perhaps better when skills are considered.

My favorite trait is Reactionary (+2 on Initiative checks). You roll intiaitive about 4x/game, and the trait has a 1/10 chance of making a difference per opponent you roll against. If there are 2 opponents per fight (on average) that means the expected number of times that the trait will help you per gaming session is greater than 1.

Berserker of the Society (Pathfinder Chronicles: Faction Guide) gives you 3 additional rage rounds/day. That will also probably help you every game or so.

For skills I would take Perception, Acrobatics, Climb, and Stealth (given your other trait).

Ya was trying to choose between Reactionary or Indomitable Faith (+1 will save. Though that may be overkill.)

Skillwise I was think Preception, Acrobatics, Survival, Stealth. I just wouldn't feel right being a Barbarian without Survival. Will probably split Survival with Climb and Swim.

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahah

Hardee Har Har

Aha.

Hee hee hee, ho hum

Aw man, I can't stop laughing.

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahah

** spoiler omitted **

Yep that is exactly the reaction that I am looking for right before I rage and rip off thier face!

Do y'all think the Titan Mauler is worth it over Invulnerable Rager? I really hate to give up that DR.

I now the LANCERAGEPOUNCE is awesome, but I really don't want to give my DM a heartattack. The last time I drove him to tears he wouldn't run a game for two years.

Working on a back up character for my current campaign and I have decided on a Barbarian. Everyone in the group (7-9 people depending on how many show up) are Human or Half-Elf and I want to play something different. Thus the Halfling. (plus I really just like the thought of a little kid hulking out and throwing everything around)

So Halfling is pretty much non-negotiable though I may be convinced of Gnome. I can see the campaign going well in to the teens or even beyond (we tend to play long ones)

Stats were rolled: 18, 15, 14, 12, 10, 9

Mongo Halfling Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 5

Str 16 (-2 racial)
Dex 16 (+2 Racial)
Con 16 (+1 level)
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 11 (+2 racial)

Feats/ *Rage Powers
1) Raging Vitality
2) *Superstious
3) Power Attack
4) *Witchhunter
5) ????

I plan on taking the beast totem line as I progress and Spell Sunder as my level 6 rage power. Do I need to take Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder to go with?

What about Trait Sugestions? Highlander I think for Stealth, but else.

I am leaning towards Great Axe or Great Sword as weapons.

My DM is also currently contemplating allowing Big Game Hunter to work on anything at least one size catagory larger than you. So for the halfling pretty much everything. (Big Game Hunter gives +1 to hit and +2 to damage to creatures who are large or larger) Would you take this at 5th or at all?

Yes I know Small races are not optimal for barbarians but it won't make that big a difference in this game since none of the others are really optimized.

So what do you think paizo community? Any suggestions?

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Salarain wrote:

What trait can I use to be able to wield a Flail?

You'll either have to burn a Feat or find a god who's favored weapon is Flail. Off the top of my head I can't think of a trait that gives a weapon proficiency, though the new Heirloom Weapon trait might I'm not sure. Besides a 15 point buy isn't that bad, I'm making my players make due with a 10 point buy in our next campaign

Hmm? you must be a very young GM to the system. With a 10 points Your not being fair or not giving the players a chance of enjoyment in the game system. Or you can not handle your team mates in the game system. I find a lot of GM out there are like this, so afraid to adjust with your players.

Hmm? You must be a very young player to the system. thinking that you can't have fun or be fair with a low point buy. Or you just can't handle not having higher stats in the game system.

See how that works there? Sorry this just irked me for some reason.

Honestly a low point buy game adds some challenge to the game that many experienced players and GM's really like.

. It lets you do a lot of interesting party buffs, but with that organic quality of needing to drink a potion, kind of like right before the big battle in Big Trouble in Little China.

Man that is awesome. I am so building Egg!

I want to think everyone for thier advice. Lots of good stuff here.

I will post the compelte build when I finally get it all worked out.

Actually if you take into account the Summoners spell list you can have Haste earlier can't you. It is a 2nd level spell on the summoner's list.

Quite a few spells like that.

If the group I am playing in wasn't so melee focused (in fact the only other caster's in the group of 8 are a summoner, an oracle and a magus) I would still seriously consider a Magician. But with a bunch of fighters, monks, and rangers running around Inspire Courage is much better.

I meant the group is very melee focused. Inspire Courage would mean a lot to them.

I intend to be a support character, that can step in and fight effectvly when it is needed.

Is there any other ways to get arcane bond without Arcane Duelist. I have been thinking of staying straight Bard, and just taking Arcane Strike as a feat.

The Arcane Bond isn't the best ability, but I like the idea of it.

I could go straight Human Bard 4

1st Arcane Strike
HB Lingering Performance
3rd Power Attack

I've always steered away from dazzling display on bards.

It's great and all, but its a fairly big feat investment (especially if you're a non human) and just around the corner is the far superior (in my opinion) dirge of doom.

Unfortunately, you have to wait for 8th level, and you lose out on inspire courage while you use it. It won't be in play all of the time. But shaken, no save, as a move action? With no ABSOLUTELY feat investment? Could be worth the wait, is all I'm saying. Pop it up during the first round and drop a spell then switch to inspire courage after that. Have your party drop all of their save-or-suck spells and move in for the kill.

I dont see that you have any reason to use Dazzling Display past 8th level. Go ahead and prove me wrong, though. Please. This thread has been very enlightening so far.

Good catch on the Dirge of Doom. I hadn't even noticed that. You are right unless I don't plan on making it past 7th level, Dazzling Display is a waste. (though weapon focus is nice but by no means nessacary)

So instead back to Bard 4

At first level Lingering Performance and Toughness? Then take Power Attack at 3rd?

Magician isn't like other bards. He doesn't do damage that multiplies with the number of people making weapon attacks. He doesn't boost himself to nearly the accuracy of a full BAB character. He's a sorceror wannabe with d8 HD and the ability to wear light armor. If you want to be a caster and your GM targets casters he has potential. If you're doing a themed party (eg. all bards) he may fit in. Otherwise I think he's for NPCs.

Ya I have decided on the Arcane Duelist, but I don't agree as much on the Magician only being for NPC's.

Especially with acess to the summoner's spell list. But it is less than ideal with having to give up Inspire Courage.

Are you looking to be a team Buffing bard if so both seem workable? If you just want to be a combatant why not look at battle dancer bard from UC?

We are a large group (6 to 9 players depending on who shows up) so I was leaning more team buffing. I looked at the battle dancer, but it isn't really what I am looking for.

Right now I am leaning towards either the Half-Orc intimidator with a Falchion, or a Human with a longsword (Two-handed or sword and board as the situation merits). I was kinda thinking this:

Human Bard level 3/ Fighter 1

str 20 (+2 racial)
dex 14
con 16 (+1 level)
int 14
wis 12
cha 18

HB Weapon Focus (longsword)
FB Dazzling Display (longsword)
1st Power Attack
3rd (bard 2) Lingering Performance

Would pick up the magical knack trait, and one that adds to intimidate. I don't want to use a scimitar (mainly because two other members of the party are) I know the longsword isn't the most optimal choice, but it isn't bad and hardly anyone in my group ever uses it.

I can go sword and board if I want or switch to two handed when I want to do some more damage. Any other weapon suggestions would be nice.

Spell wise, I am still feeling them out. But will most likely pick as I go, and use treantmonk's sugestions.

Though I am not sure if I want to give up any levels of Bard.

Lingering Performance is what I meant, thanks.

I like it better than extra performance. Any other suggestions?

And thanks alot.

I think sticking with the longsword so I can have my off hand free is a good idea, that way I could also pull out a shield if I really need it.

I would also probably stay human, so what for the first level bonus feat.

1st Toughness
Human: Lingering song?, Combat Manuevers (for improved manuvers later)
3rd: Power Attack

And I can switch out HP's and Extra spells known (favored class bonus) as needed.

Two Weapon Fighting before level 5 will be a pain for your Arcane Duelist, because he still needs a hand free for somantic components before he gets the Arcane Bond Class Feature. That aside, it's a stylistic choice really. Personally, with a 'melee' Bard (especially an Arcane Duelist) I like to keep a shield handy for the extra AC.

Don't forget that when you do get the Arcane Bond you get to enchant your bonded weapon as if you had the relevant Item Creation Feats, and that it only works for you, and that it heals damage to it automatically... The gp to enchant it aside, an Arcane Bonded weapon actually outpaces a Magus's Black Blade in many ways.

Good point on the two weapon fighting. Something else I need to remember. If I went that route what weapons would you recomend? I could use daggers and the river rat trait. A pair of short swords, or rapier/ dagger.

I would want to use finessable weapons wouldn't I?

Ya the numbers are crazy. We rolled 3d6 reroll 1's drop the lowest add 6. The GM wanted us to have good stats. But he also gives all monsters max hp's.

Mergy thanks for the recomendation. Looks really good. How would you recomend to building it if I wanted to be more support that can melee?

Very good breakdown of the class Sean, thank you. I really like the Arcane Duelist. After looking at the group composition as well I believe it is the better pick (very melee focused)

Also forgot all about being able to cast even when duel wielding because of the arcane bond.

Will most definetly go with the Arcane Duelist, I believe.

Is it worth duel wielding or should I go with a long sword with two hands. I know Dual Wield is feat and stat intensive, but I did roll well. I could also go Half-Orc and use a greataxe or falchion.

Starting at 4th level

18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 14

Human Dual Wield

Str 14
Dex 20 (+2 racial)
Con 16 (+1 at 4th)
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 18

1st Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd Power Attack

Then all the Arcane Duelist goodness.

or

Half-Orc

Str 20 (+2 Racial)
Dex 16 (+1 at 4th)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 18

1st ?Toughness?
3rd Power Attack

Use a greataxe or falcion and be the world's prettiest Half Orc

Any recomendations?

After reading a certain book, I am really in the mood to play a bard. I have read Treantmonk's guide and looked around the boards a bit and have decided I want play a melee bard (really more support, but can get into melee if needed, really don't want to do an archer)

I just really wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the Arcane Duelist (doesn't really give up anything I will miss) or the Magician (loses a few of the Bard's best music, but picking spells off other arcane lists is awesome)

So what do the great minds here think? Arcane Duelist or Magician and why?

I totally intend to play a dervish dancing goblin fighter for my next character. Take the dirty trick line, and possibly the steal line.

Ironbar wrote:

Honestly I don't think it is a bs tactic.

Taking a full round action to finish off a helpless oponent is not really an efficent way for a guy to spend his actions.

Especially when there are three to four other opponents intent on killing and looting their bodies left to deal with.

That being said, it's your game. If you think it is fair and a problem you don't want to deal with then don't.

Personally I think it is unneceasary, as the only way they would get into that situation is if you, as GM, put them there, and if you have a problem with it, don't put them there.

I have lost characters to this before, I have never felt cheated because of it, and honestly would have thought my GM was being soft.

In group combat, taking somebody out in one round is damn efficient.

Not quite as effeciant when you remember that somebody is already taken out of action with the hold. Yes, that person can get back in the fight with a passed save.

Anyway, like I said, it's your game. Run it how you want and screw what everyone else thinks. As long as you and your players are happy that is what matters right? Or do you really just need the anonymous members of a messageboard who will most likely never play in your game agree with you.