| 16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As the title states, the only one that it qualifies for currently is the scout, but could you be a ninja with the scout archetype?
prototype00
there is precedent for alternative classes having their own archetypes (see antipaladin), so probably not.
there is precedent for alternative classes having their own archetypes (see antipaladin), so probably not.
Yeah, I'm not sure the antipaladin is a good example, as its as different from the paladin as its possible to get, I don't see an antipaladin taking the "compassionate healer" archetype, do you?
Samurai and Cavaliers share knightly orders, so that would be a good precedent for sharing other things.
Besides, I've just noticed that in the ninja class description, they've said that the ninja class, except for where stated, functions exactly like the rogue, which I suppose includes archetypes?
prototype00
there is precedent for alternative classes having their own archetypes (see antipaladin), so probably not.Yeah, I'm not sure the antipaladin is a good example, as its as different from the paladin as its possible to get, I don't see an antipaladin taking the "compassionate healer" archetype, do you?
Samurai and Cavaliers share knightly orders, so that would be a good precedent for sharing other things.
Besides, I've just noticed that in the ninja class description, they've said that the ninja class, except for where stated, functions exactly like the rogue, which I suppose includes archetypes?
prototype00
Yeah i think there is an argument for and against right now, so clarification would be nice.
Yeah i think there is an argument for and against right now, so clarification would be nice.there is precedent for alternative classes having their own archetypes (see antipaladin), so probably not.Yeah, I'm not sure the antipaladin is a good example, as its as different from the paladin as its possible to get, I don't see an antipaladin taking the "compassionate healer" archetype, do you?
Samurai and Cavaliers share knightly orders, so that would be a good precedent for sharing other things.
Besides, I've just noticed that in the ninja class description, they've said that the ninja class, except for where stated, functions exactly like the rogue, which I suppose includes archetypes?
prototype00
Well, I've marked it for the faq, would you like to mark it too?
prototype00
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Well, the antipaladin sort of needed its own archetype anyway, since it doesn't have any of the same class abilities that paladins have, so they wouldn't qualify for any of the paladin archetypes. Plus, the antipaladin archetype is listed among the other paladin archetypes in Ultimate Combat, so that also lends some credence to the "for" argument.
text for archtypes says you can combine archtypes so long as you don't replace out the same ability. e.g. if they both remove "uncanny dodge" , then you can't combine the archtypes.
Ninjas are an alternate rogue class, not an archetype. They do get uncanny dodge, but I don't know if they qualify for rogue archetypes in general.
Though really, I'm 90% sure that they do.
prototype00
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text for archtypes says you can combine archtypes so long as you don't replace out the same ability. e.g. if they both remove "uncanny dodge" , then you can't combine the archtypes.Ninjas are an alternate rogue class, not an archetype. They do get uncanny dodge, but I don't know if they qualify for rogue archetypes in general.
Though really, I'm 90% sure that they do.
prototype00
isn't an alternate class for rogue, the same as an archtype ?
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Not sure if this counts, but the PRD on Anitpalidins and the SRD on Alternative classes prett much say the same thing:
While a redesign of sorts, this alternate class can be used just as any of the other base classes found in the first part of this chapter.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
I would read that as they are base classes and thus get their own archetypes. Also, if they are really restricted from getting a level in the basic class, I would view that as the stop of getting that classes archetypes.
Now that having been said, I may allow it in my games, but it would have to be a case by case basis.
We have three "alt classes" one replaces every class feature, two have less changes them some archetypes. We have been told they are just big archetypes. Based on what we have the named Alt class is based not on what they change but on what they named it. So its an archetype.
So yes, if you have the class feature traded in said archetype you may take it. If you do not ( such as trap finding) then you can not take it.
The anti-paladin must have its own archetypes simply because it replaces every single class feature of the Paladin. It can't take paladin archetypes as it does not have the feature the archetype replaces.
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While a home game might permit it, there's nothing in the rules which less you take another class' archetypes with a different class -- no matter how closely the two resemble one another.
-- But you can always multiclass (delays Advanced Talents, of course).
(IMO ninjas should have been a rogue archetype, and samurai a cavalier archetype -- not new base classes.)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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-- But you can always multiclass (delays Advanced Talents, of course).
(IMO ninjas should have been a rogue archetype, and samurai a cavalier archetype -- not new base classes.)
Last I heard, you couldn't multiclass as a rogue/ninja (or a paladin/antipaladin or a cavalier/samurai).
(IMO ninjas should have been a rogue archetype, and samurai a cavalier archetype -- not new base classes.)
+1 and mechanically this is just what they are :) The name alone earned them the label "Alt class" which we have been told is "just a big archetype" even if in fact 2 of the 3 are smaller then some archetypes.
As further evidence of ninjas and samurai being able to take rogue and cavalier archetypes, respectively, consider the fact that while Gunslingers got their own area in the Class Archetypes section of UC, ninja and samurai did not.
With UM and UC, Paizo has been very good about giving the option of customizing the new classes straight out of the gate, with Gunslinger and Magus both having archetypes included in the book which originally first introduced them. Why would Samurai and Ninja then be completely denied archetypes? True, the ninja can take different talents, and the samurai different orders, but it still seems very clear that the intention was for them to be able to take archetypes from their corresponding base class if all the class abilities are there to do it.
As further evidence of ninjas and samurai being able to take rogue and cavalier archetypes, respectively, consider the fact that while Gunslingers got their own area in the Class Archetypes section of UC, ninja and samurai did not.
With UM and UC, Paizo has been very good about giving the option of customizing the new classes straight out of the gate, with Gunslinger and Magus both having archetypes included in the book which originally first introduced them. Why would Samurai and Ninja then be completely denied archetypes? True, the ninja can take different talents, and the samurai different orders, but it still seems very clear that the intention was for them to be able to take archetypes from their corresponding base class if all the class abilities are there to do it.
Gunslinger is also a full class and not an "alternative class"
Also by the same token, cavalier, oracle, etc. DID NOT get any archetypes in their debut(s).
It's easy to parse a case for or against. Definitely need an answer from upon high (obviously people can do whatever they want in home games).
As further evidence of ninjas and samurai being able to take rogue and cavalier archetypes, respectively, consider the fact that while Gunslingers got their own area in the Class Archetypes section of UC, ninja and samurai did not.
With UM and UC, Paizo has been very good about giving the option of customizing the new classes straight out of the gate, with Gunslinger and Magus both having archetypes included in the book which originally first introduced them. Why would Samurai and Ninja then be completely denied archetypes? True, the ninja can take different talents, and the samurai different orders, but it still seems very clear that the intention was for them to be able to take archetypes from their corresponding base class if all the class abilities are there to do it.
Gunslinger is also a full class and not an "alternative class"
Also by the same token, cavalier, oracle, etc. DID NOT get any archetypes in their debut(s).
It's easy to parse a case for or against. Definitely need an answer from upon high (obviously people can do whatever they want in home games).
Which is why I said "With UM and UC..." In the APG, the new classes did not get archetypes at the time of their publication. They did get prestige classes.
Now, the focus seems to be completely on archetypes with prestige classes getting dropped. This process was started in the APG and finished with UM.
It seems unreasonable that Paizo would introduce two new classes(Nin/Sam) and not give them archetype support at the same time they introduce two other new classes(Gun/Mag) and do.
And while I know that N/S are alternate classes where G/M are full classes, if we are saying that N/S are not allowed to take archetypes from their base class, then they are effectively entirely new classes, but with even more restrictions (no multiclassing into base class) and fewer benefits (no archetypes).
Again the ninja and sam are not new classes. They are "alt classes" which we have been told are a type of archetype. The only reason an anti-paladin can not take paladin archetypes are 1: The paladin is LG and only LG while the anti is CE and only CE and 2: The anti-paladin has zero class features any paladin archetype changes. You must have the feature changed in order to take the archetype.
Also on the AGP and the AGP classes not getting archetypes. Do recall the AGP was the book that introed archetypes and that the lack of them for the new classes is one of the big dislikes from the AGP. Which is why both UM and UC have archetypes for the new classes in those books.
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It seems unreasonable that Paizo would introduce two new classes(Nin/Sam) and not give them archetype support at the same time they introduce two other new classes(Gun/Mag) and do.
And while I know that N/S are alternate classes where G/M are full classes, if we are saying that N/S are not allowed to take archetypes from their base class, then they are effectively entirely new classes, but with even more restrictions (no multiclassing into base class) and fewer benefits (no archetypes).
Not true. The Samurai and Ninja can multiclass into base classes. They cannot multiclass into the base class from which their alternate class is deviated. But, that's not really a restriction as the rogue can no more multiclass in ninja than the ninja can multiclass into rogue (or the fact that a fighter can't multiclass into fighter for that matter). Having less archtypes may just be because, well, they haven't released any yet. Not say I know either way the answer to the OP's question, but there is obviously reason to believe Alternate Classes are treated a little differently (hence, you know, the different title).
Not true. The Samurai and Ninja can multiclass into base classes. They cannot multiclass into the base class from which their alternate class is deviated. But, that's not really a restriction as the rogue can no more multiclass in ninja than the ninja can multiclass into rogue (or the fact that a fighter can't multiclass into fighter for that matter). Having less archtypes may just be because, well, they haven't released any yet. Not say I know either way the answer to the OP's question, but there is obviously reason to believe Alternate Classes are treated a little differently (hence, you know, the different title).It seems unreasonable that Paizo would introduce two new classes(Nin/Sam) and not give them archetype support at the same time they introduce two other new classes(Gun/Mag) and do.
And while I know that N/S are alternate classes where G/M are full classes, if we are saying that N/S are not allowed to take archetypes from their base class, then they are effectively entirely new classes, but with even more restrictions (no multiclassing into base class) and fewer benefits (no archetypes).
Sorry, I was leaving words out at the end there. Meant to read as they can't multiclass into their respective base classes. And it is possible that they didn't have any archetypes simply because they don't. I find this situation unlikely, though.
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Sorry, I was leaving words out at the end there. Meant to read as they can't multiclass into their respective base classes. And it is possible that they didn't have any archetypes simply because they don't. I find this situation unlikely, though.
More than understandable. Clarity is sometimes hard to come by on internet forums. Crazy right?
And I'm not saying they don't have archtypes simply because they don't have them. I'm saying they don't have archtypes because they don't have them YET. Nothing says they won't release Ninja/Samurai archtypes in the future.
Ninja is a Rogue. It's like saying that a Tetori isn't a Monk any more because we call it a Tetori. Ninja is just a really big Archetype. It says in the description of Alt Classes that it is just a big archetype and it still counts as it's base class. This fact is reiterated in the ninja write up. A ninja can take a Rogue Archetype as long as it has the necessary abilities to give up. This will limit it to Scout, Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Bandit and the Catfolk racial Archetype.
Do you want to take any of these, No. Can you, of course.
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The important thing is to make sure that a ninja can never take the Pirate archetype.Thankfully there's no Robot archetype for the rogue either!
(not sure if this has been said, but saying anyways) There IS an android that can be taken as a race in the Inner Sea Beastiary
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits Androids have swift reflexes and are very intelligent, but have difficulty relating to others. As a result, androids gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence, but suffer a –2 penalty to Charisma.
Languages: Androids begin play speaking Common. Androids with high Intelligence can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Androids gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Emotionless (–1 RP): Androids have problems processing emotions properly, and thus take a –4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.
Senses Racial Traits
Exceptional Senses: Androids have darkvision to a range of 60 feet and low-light vision.
Other Racial Traits
Constructed (2 RP): For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects.
Emotionless (–1 RP): Androids have problems processing emotions properly, and thus take a –4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.
Nanite Surge (3 RP): An android's body is infused with nanites. Once per day as an immediate action, an android can cause her nanites to surge, granting a bonus equal to 3 + the android's character level on any one d20 roll; this ability must be activated before the roll is made. When an android uses this power, her circuitry-tattoos glow with light equivalent to that of a torch in illumination for 1 round.
Except the samurai was an alternate class as well and now he has his own archtype the Sword Saint. With that example I once would have agreed about "alternate class" thing but not anymore since they set a precedence now with the samurai. So now I would look at it as; No, the Ninja stands alone. Not that he needs any help.
I read it that Ninja is a Rogue, and as j b 200 pointed out, is open to take the few archetypes listed.
This is supported (NOT PROVED) by the fact that Hero Lab allows it.
The important thing is to make sure that a ninja can never take the Pirate archetype.Thankfully there's no Robot archetype for the rogue either!
Wish there was, then I could play Bender!
So, it SAYS this was answered in the FAQ, but I can't seem to find it. Can someone link it, or is this one of the threads hit by the "purge" awhile back?