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So the other day I thought of this and wanted to share it to get some feedback. Designed to either use spell shield vs the hard hitting guys or arcane accuracy with foresight to deal out x3 crit scimitar with 7d6 shocking grasp. While not optimized for damage, it should still be around 70 per round using all the abilities but I'm too tired to work it out now. I believe this is with core, APG, UM, UC + seekers of secrets. The build gets stronger with more magus levels.
STR 18 (14 base +4 belt)
DEX 9 (7 bas +2 racial)
CON 12 (14 base -2 racial)
INT 26 (18 base +2 racial +2 level +4 headband)
WIS 11
CHA 7
Initiative +13 (8 int -1 dex +4 Improved initiative +2 reactive)
AC 35 or 43 with spell shield
10 base +5 armour +7 canny defence +8 mind over metal +1 dodge +2 deflection +2 NA
Saves 10,3,9
5,2,5
0,0,2
1,1,1
BAB 7
Arcane Pool = 10
black blade pool = 2
Divination Special: Foresight 11/day
Weapon Black Blade +2 Scimitar (+14 1d6 +6) (7bab+2enh+1wf+4str)
Equipment
+4 headband of int 16K
+4 belt str 16K
+2 ring of protection 4K
+2 amulate of NA 8K
+4 ceremonial robe 16K
+1 cloak of resist 1K
Total = 61.3 K gear
Spells
magus
1st 5
2nd 4
3rd 3
Wizard
1st 3 (+1 arcane bond)
Magus Arcana
Spell Shield (add int to shield bonus for AC)
Feats: 5 level
Weapon Focus (kensie 1)
Alertness (when wielding blade)
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Skill focus (knowledge arcana)
Intensify Spell
Extra Arcana - Arcane Accuracy
Power attack (magus 5)
Lunge (student of war 2)
Scribe Scroll (Wizard 1)
Traits
Magical Lineage shocking grasp
Reactive
Abilities:
Canny Defence 7 - light armour add int mod to dex mod 1 point per level
Perfect Strike - on confirmed crit increase mult by 1 for 2 AP points
Fighter Training
Iaijutsu - Int + dex on initiative rolls/ AOO when flatfooted
Divination Forewarned - always act in surprise round
Prescience 11/day free action roll d20...
Know your Enemy - move action, knowledge check small bonus
Mind over metal - Use int mod in place of dex mod for AC
Languages
Common, Elven, Celestial, Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
Skills 108 points
19 Perception (10 ranks +2 keen senses +3 in class +4 alertness)
17 Sense Motive (10 ranks +3 in class +4 alertness)
21 Spellcraft (10 ranks +8 ability mod +3 in class)
12 Swim (5 ranks +3 in class +4 ability mod)
12 Climb (5 ranks +3 in class +4 ability mod)
11 UMD (10 ranks +3 in class -2 ability mod)
16 Knowledge (all)(5 ranks in each +8 int +3 inclass)=50 points
7 Acrobatics (8 ranks -1 mod)
With that said. . .
use arcane pool to turn blade into +3 keen scimitar, use foresight to roll d20 spellstrike/spellcombat shocking grasp and perfect strike on crit to raise the multiplier to x3
Katana? Falcata? Seem like better options since ur not committed to dervish build
After reading this there are have some things I'm wondering.
Why are you using armor you are not proficient in? The magus is proficient with light armor, but you lose that when you take the kensai archetype. And the other 2 are not proficient with any type of armor. Not to mention the chance of arcane spell failure while wearing any type of armor or shield. Unless I'm missing something here.
I don't think canny defense and mind over metal stack. The ac from canny dodge is considered dex, while mind over metal is considered int I believe. I could be wrong but from the description of mind over metal it sounds like you can use your dex OR your int to determine your ac not both.
What is your bonded item? From looking at your equipment I would guess a ring, but I could be wrong.
Saves 10,3,9
5,2,5
0,0,2
1,1,1
BAB 7
What do these numbers mean? I understand the top are your 3 saves and the bottom is your base attack, but I'm not sure what the middle 3 are.
How did you get dodge? It requires a dex of 13 or higher while you have 9.
How are you casting foresight? A scroll or something else?
First off thanks for the feed back! Now to answer the questions. As to weapon choice I didn't really look into them but now that you mention it, a katana would be a better choice with the 18-20 threat and higher damage dice, not sure if the falcta with 19-20x3 would be as good as a magus benefits greatly from crit builds; You'd have to crunch the numbers on that one to find the DPR difference.
After reading this there are have some things I'm wondering.
Why are you using armor you are not proficient in? The magus is proficient with light armor, but you lose that when you take the kensai archetype. And the other 2 are not proficient with any type of armor. Not to mention the chance of arcane spell failure while wearing any type of armor or shield. Unless I'm missing something here.
That’s the best thing; there's NO REASON not to wear armor; yes a kensie suffers normal arcane spell failure/ penalties and I see I wrote the name of the armor wrong; my bad its
Silken ceremonial armor 30 gp +1 — 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 4 lbs.
as you see its got 0 ASF and 0 ACP with no max dex mod. Now I could be wrong but I believe with no penalties its no problem; student of war doesn't actually require proficiency, only that you wear armor.
I don't think canny defense and mind over metal stack. The ac from canny dodge is considered dex, while mind over metal is considered int I believe. I could be wrong but from the description of mind over metal it sounds like you can use your dex OR your int to determine your ac not both.
This is the best thing about the build.
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duellist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
A 2nd-level student of war is skilled at taking blows such that her armor or shield deflects them harmlessly. When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class. The armor’s normal maximum Dexterity bonus still applies (limiting how much of the character’s Intelligence bonus she can apply to her AC).
Essentially Mind over metal allows the build to use int instead of dex for AC, while Canny defence adds int to dex bonus. The two should stack.
What is your bonded item? From looking at your equipment I would guess a ring, but I could be wrong.Saves 10,3,9
5,2,5
0,0,2
1,1,1
BAB 7What do these numbers mean? I understand the top are your 3 saves and the bottom is your base attack, but I'm not sure what the middle 3 are.
How did you get dodge? It requires a dex of 13 or higher while you have 9.
How are you casting foresight? A scroll or something else?
The bonded item could even be the indestructible black blade if you were worried about it, loosing it isn't a problem to the build as the wizard levels aren't there for spells, really for the divination school bonuses and could be dropped from the build to gain an extra AC from an extra Canny Defence modifier.
As for my strange formatting for saves the top numbers are the final saves added together the middle 3 are the base saves for magus, wizard and student of war respectively; also your right this build does not qualify for dodge, I originally had a +4 belt of str/con but it got dropped due to being much more then I remembered it as. Leaving dodge in the list was an oversight of mine.
Foresight is actually the Divination subschool replacement, again this was a bad use of language on my part and I apologize for the confusion.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner’s fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Did you miss the "per duelist class level" bit on the Canny Defense?
Canny Defence comes from Kensai 1 and as such functions like this
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
Therefore its more of a case of 'per Kensai class level'. Hope that clears it up for you!
EDIT noticed I've been spelling Kensai Kensie... oh well, I'll do it correctly from now on.
What two Martial weapons are you proficient with? That's a prerequisite of Student of War. I see scimitar, but I don't see another one.
This comes from racial bonus for being elf (my fav race and happens to work well for this)
Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Edit: I see I forgot to list the race but from the racial mods in the point buy it was implied
Ah, assumed it came from Student of War.
Could you be a half-elf to get a second martial weapon proficiency?
Yes you could with this...
Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus Feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
Unfortunatly that replaces skill focus which is a qualifier for student of war, so you dont save any feats this way just dodge the con drop from full elf.
again sorry about not listing the race in the build, had to retype it last night after a browser crash so some minor detaiils got lost.
One question I have is if you have a way to get your reflex save up.
I suppose a person could trade reactive for the +1 reflex save trait and one of the feats ( probably power attack ) for the +2 reflex save feat. That should bring it up to +6 which while bad isn't terrible. Also in the equipment section you could adjust some of the AC items like the ring, NA bonus or armor enchant to get a better cloak of resist. That would drop the AC but thats not a real concern. I did it this way mainly to prove a point, not so much as to optimize it for actual play (although I think its VERY playable as is)
Canny Defense (Ex):
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duellist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Mind Over Metal (Ex):
A 2nd-level student of war is skilled at taking blows such that her armor or shield deflects them harmlessly. When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class. The armor’s normal maximum Dexterity bonus still applies (limiting how much of the character’s Intelligence bonus she can apply to her AC).
Essentially Mind over metal allows the build to use int instead of dex for AC, while Canny defence adds int to dex bonus. The two should stack.
Mind over Metal says you replace your DEX bonus with INT bonus.
Canny Defense says it adds INT to your DEX bonus to AC. Canny Defense does not say it adds your INT bonus to your INT bonus to AC.
Further, both abilities add to AC from an INT (stat) bonus, which similar buffs don't stack unless they are "dodge" or untyped. The AC bonus from INT seems like from the same type of thing.
I disagree that they work together by RAW and I don't think it is RAI either.
This is an excellent response and truthfully I didn't see it this way as I was blinded by my own cool-aid to see it as such. I suppose it depends on interpretation and sadly a mincing of the rules text. I thought I had found something that didn't involve such but alas...
With that said that I can see your point but consider the following
1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon
When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class
The way I could see this working is to interpret intelligence modifier in place of dexterity modifier, as being like such
STR 14DEX (INT mod in place of dex mod) +8 + canny defence +7 modifier
CON 12
INT 26
WIS 11
CHA 7
In this interpretation mind over metal replaces your base stat modifier with int mod instead of dex. Then Canny defence, modifying your dex mod, which is effectively using your int mod for a base stat adds onto it as such. I admit freely this is a little counterintuitive but I think this could be a valid interpretation of the text. (Although now that you point it out its not the first thing I see and this took alot of thought to explain in a workable manner)
Canny Defense says it adds INT to your DEX bonus to AC. Canny Defense does not say it adds your INT bonus to your INT bonus to AC.
[...]
Yo dawg, I heard u like INT AC so I put INT into your INT AC so u can think while u can dodge.
Also, Katana is better in DPR than the falcata:
assuming both have the keen property
- katana has 3/10 chance to get a critical, with a x2 damage multiplier increased to x3 with perfect strike.
- falcata has 2/10 chance to get a critical, with a x3 damage multiplier increased to x£ with perfect strike.
Then, assuming:
X = damage of the weapon (assumes it is identical both for katana and falcata)
3/10*3*X katana , 2/10*4*X falcata ->
3/10*3 , 2/10*4 ->
9/10 > 8/10
With weapon mastery is even better the Katana:
3/10*4 katana, 2/10*5 falcata ->
12/10 , 10/10 ->
6/5 > 1
I'd buy the justification that Uncanny Defense originates from wielding a weapon, while Mind over Metal originates from the use of armor. I have no problem stacking them as one replaces the stat mod itself and the other augments the stat mod higher based on class level...
Stick with Katana and be a bada## with powerattack
INT/STR Character ftw!
Now we just need some tasty favored class bonuses for Magi
I'd buy the justification that Uncanny Defense originates from wielding a weapon, while Mind over Metal originates from the use of armor. I have no problem stacking them as one replaces the stat mod itself and the other augments the stat mod higher based on class level...
Stick with Katana and be a bada## with powerattack
INT/STR Character ftw!
Now we just need some tasty favored class bonuses for Magi
Well said
First off thanks for the feed back! Now to answer the questions. As to weapon choice I didn't really look into them but now that you mention it, a katana would be a better choice with the 18-20 threat and higher damage dice, not sure if the falcta with 19-20x3 would be as good as a magus benefits greatly from crit builds; You'd have to crunch the numbers on that one to find the DPR difference.
That’s the best thing; there's NO REASON not to wear armor; yes a kensie suffers normal arcane spell failure/ penalties and I see I wrote the name of the armor wrong; my bad its
** spoiler omitted **
as you see its got 0 ASF and 0 ACP with no max dex mod. Now I could be wrong but I believe with no penalties its no problem; student of war doesn't actually require proficiency, only that you wear armor.
Ah very nice, I wasn't aware there was armor that didn't give any penalties, I'm going to use that on my own magus.
I don't think canny defense and mind over metal are suppose to stack, while spell shield should be able to stack with one of the other 2.
Mind Over Metal - You can replace your dex mod with your int mod to determine your AC.
Spell Shield - Until the end of your next turn you add your int mod to your shield bonus to determine AC.
You would need to find a way to get dodge, but overall it looks pretty good.
Ah very nice, I wasn't aware there was armor that didn't give any penalties, I'm going to use that on my own magus.I don't think canny defense and mind over metal are suppose to stack, while spell shield should be able to stack with one of the other 2.
** spoiler omitted **
You would need to find a way to get dodge, but overall it looks pretty good.
I've been giving the dodge thing some thought and the easiest way to get it would be to adjust the point buy slightly and go for 7 wisdom 11 dex which would be boosted to 13 with racial mod. If wisdom dumping not your cup of tea, dropping the str slightly or even con would work well.
As to if they are supposed to stack, I tend to think they probably are not, based on the kind of material Paizo has published so far (big fan btw). That said RAI is difficult to say for certain on, and a high AC is hardly game breaking considering other methods can achieve equally great AC (not including spell shield bonus- it is a limited resource).
Canny Defence and mind over metal should stack RAW I believe; as Mind over metal replaces your dex mod with your int mod for ac; visually
ABL SC MOD With Mind over metal Canny Defence
STR 18 +4 STR +4
DEX 13 +1 DEX +8 -replaces the +1 mod for ac +7 to dex mod
CON 12 +1 CON +1
INT 26 +8 INT +8
If it was worded something like "instead of using your dexterity to determine AC you may use your intelligence" then yes it wouldn't work. Instead as worded it replaces one modifier with another; your still using dex, but applying a different modifier to determine AC.
Its kinda like a Jedi "This is not the Dex your looking for"
Haven't found that Spell Shield. But if it add your int mod to you shield bonus to AC, I guess you have to have shield bonus so it can be added to it. Not sure it can be added if there is no shield bonus present.
Spell Shield is a magus arcana from ultimate magic. No, you can get a shield from using a shield (of course) or from certain spells such as shield. Unless it requires you to use a shield/have one equipped, you don't need one to get a shield bonus.
Canny Defence and mind over metal should stack RAW I believe; as Mind over metal replaces your dex mod with your int mod for ac; visually
ABL SC MOD With Mind over metal Canny Defence
STR 18 +4 STR +4
DEX 13 +1 DEX +8 -replaces the +1 mod for ac +7 to dex mod
CON 12 +1 CON +1
INT 26 +8 INT +8
If it was worded something like "instead of using your dexterity to determine AC you may use your intelligence" then yes it wouldn't work. Instead as worded it replaces one modifier with another; your still using dex, but applying a different modifier to determine AC.
Its kinda like a Jedi "This is not the Dex your looking for"
I disagree, when you replace your dex mod with your int mod you are no longer using your dex mod to determine your AC.
It doesnt matter where from it originates.Problem is those two are same bonuses on first place.ONLY dodge bonuses stacks.That way you could have 2 different items on two different slot(both giving deflection bonus to AC),and stack them as they originates from different slot.But they dont stack.
This I didn't see as a problem, because they are untyped bonuses at best, or one replacing the dex mod, the other adding a bonus onto it.
Also it isn't that your AC is Int based all of a sudden, its that your replacing your current dex modifier value with your int modifier. so your dex mod for AC goes from being +1 to +8; its not Int for AC
she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class
. It doesn't actually say use INT instead of Dex for AC, just that you can swap in your int value if its higher; its still Dex based AC using a different modifier.
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In this interpretation mind over metal replaces your base stat modifier with int mod instead of dex. Then Canny defence, modifying your dex mod, which is effectively using your int mod for a base stat adds onto it as such.Your interpretation is changing Canny Defense to add to something other than DEX bonus to AC. Remember, Mind Over Metal does not specifically say it alters Canny Defense text in any way.
As such, there should only be two cases:
1) Resolve Mind Over Metal and then Canny Defense.
Metal Over Magic replaces the character's DEX bonus to AC with an INT bonus to AC.
Canny Defense adds INT bonus to DEX Bonus to AC, but you are no longer using your DEX bonus, so Canny Defense is no longer applicable.
2) Resolve Canny Defense and then Mind Over Metal.
Canny Defense adds INT bonus to your DEX bonus to AC, which creates a modified DEX bonus to AC.
Mind Over Magic replaces the character's DEX bonus to AC (which has been modified by Canny Defense) with an INT bonus to AC.
***********************************
Is there any precendence that a stat applies a bonus twice to anything at all?
I believe the interpretation the OP is going for is as follows:
1) Mind Over Metal allows the character to use their Int modifier instead of their Dex modifier to determine their Dex bonus to AC.
2) Canny Defense allows the character to add their Int modifier to their Dex bonus to AC.
This would mean your Dex bonus is your Int modifier and you then add your Int modifier to your Dex bonus. Which simplifies down to "add two times your Int modifier to your AC as a Dex bonus to AC". Which seems to be a legit interpretation to me.
The worst thing about this is I can see completely where you are coming from with this, and while I believe that this is not a RAI situation it is very possible within the rules
As such, there should only be two cases:1) Resolve Mind Over Metal and then Canny Defense.
Metal Over Magic replaces the character's DEX bonus to AC with an INT bonus to AC.
Canny Defense adds INT bonus to DEX Bonus to AC, but you are no longer using your DEX bonus, so Canny Defense is no longer applicable.
Is there any precedence that a stat applies a bonus twice to anything at all?
As to precedence to having a bonus twice as far as I know in Pathfinder there is no other ability that modifies something twice other than a paladins smite (Cha to AC) plus this feat
Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27
You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.
Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.
Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defence action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.
Thanks to the archive of nethys for easy feat database
So Palys could get double CHA to AC vs one opponent that they smite. I guess thats sort of a history.
now onto the meat of the issue
Canny Defence adds INT bonus to DEX Bonus to AC, but you are no longer using your DEX bonus, so Canny Defence is no longer applicable.
I think you are still using your DEX- albeit not your dex modifier, but rather your int modifier as per Mind over metal. Therefore I believe Canny Defence could be applied legally to the Dex bonus.
Edit Post Monster ate my reply so I had to retype it
First off what does "OB" stand for? I know OP generally means original poster.
Mind Over Metal uses an INT mod to AC. It is used in place of the DEX mod, but it is still an INT mod to AC.Canny Defense uses a DEX mod to AC. It adds an INT mod to the DEX mod, but it is still a DEX mod to AC.
Neither feat allows you an INT mod to AC plus a DEX mod to AC as far as I can see.
can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class.
First off I want to say I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, but rather attempting to demonstrate what I view as a very real reading of the rules. With that said, "in place of" seems to be the key wording in Mind over Metal. This means that while your using your Int mod in the place of your Dex mod for determining AC all it does is replace the numerical value and nothing more. Therefore you would still technically be using the Dexterity modifier in the AC equation. If it were to work so that the two did not stack it would read "instead of" or something equally exclusionary.
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you. Your AC is equal to the following:
10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Because Canny Defence then adds onto your dexterity modifier, it should still work.
What about an oracle who replaces their dexmod with their cha mod...if said oracle gain canny defense somehow... Would canny defense fail to apply as well because now cha replaces dex?
I think the real issue is that people are set against applying the same mod twice. What about a monk with the 3.5 saint template?
What about an oracle who replaces their dexmod with their cha mod...if said oracle gain canny defense somehow... Would canny defense fail to apply as well because now cha replaces dex?
I think the real issue is that people are set against applying the same mod twice. What about a monk with the 3.5 saint template?
Ya several PRC's allowed for stat switching and stacking in 3.5 off the top of my head there was some massive CON stack that could be done with about 2 or 3 of em combined.
Oh i just read your first post and saw you starting with 20 INT on first level.So +5 from level,+5 from tome of understanding,+6 from headband,you are on 36 INT,which is +13 modifier.So without spell shield you have 56!!base AC,62 with expertise and with spell shield its 75(SEVENTY FIVE) against one target.Please tell me,which other class can match that:)
There is a monk build under a topic on these forums about best core ac that has that high of an AC.
EDIT: Found it, AC 79 one is over 100.
I bet it could go higher now.
can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class.I disagree.Instead of and in place of have exactly the sAme meaning,at least in my language:)And therefore i think it become INT mod to AC which isnt stackabile with other one.
Lets say you have green cup and red cup.Green cup is on the shelf ATM.If you put red cup IN PLACE OF green cup than on that shelf will be red cup,and green cup will be removed,no more on the shelf.Thats why you cant add it on dex modifier,because it is now INT in place of DEX.
"and a high AC is hardly game breaking considering other methods can achieve equally great AC (not including spell shield bonus- it is a limited resource)".
Well you use arcane pool which can get pretty high,and for one point you have your AC against that target untill start of your next turn,meaning it counts for every target attack on you in his round,which is kinda great for 1 arcane point.Also you said other methods can achieveequally high AC.Well not sure about that.
Lets say all those are stacking.You can get easily +10 INT modifier later,if not even bhigher.So base 10+2x10 int+bracers of armor+8,+5 amulet of NA,+ 5 ring of deflection,+1 dodge,+1 haste.If you have Combat expertise,another +6.So in total 56+(spell shield(+10) against one target),so its 60-66AC against single target and 50-56 AC against all other.I dont see which classes can get equally high AC as this one tbh:)
First off high AC only helps vs meele; I'll note several things which may make you view it as 'less over powered'. The bonus to AC does NOT increase the CMD; any character following this build will be relitvely weak towards CMB attempts. Furthermore The saves are average or below average, and any character focusing on AC as much as you state would have very little other gear, dropping their damage potential, and if your denied dex you'd lose the bonus to AC. Lastly I don't know anyone who would try this in any game I've played/run because it exists as an thought exercise more than a playable build.
I can see where your coming from Leongorance; what you describe would be a logical interpretation of the rules. The problem being is that sadly the rules often depart from the land of logic and reason. I have said my views on the issue, and they have not changed- should you feel further need to probe the issue feel free to post it in the rules forum and send me a link. Otherwise I see this as a fruitless effort between sensible people. The internet being the internet it is difficult to understand tone but believe me I truly have appreciated your feedback! It made me think VERY hard on the issue to come up with the responses I have.
And thats 8 more than that monk,PLUS that monk is made only to havr biggest armor possible,which makes him totally useless due to extremely bad hit and damage,and this Magus would be made to be usefull and with 87 AC which would be kinda disbalanced(if all those stack,and it doesnt i guess).
Love how you didn't look at the other builds some of which are as viable damage wise in that range. Or the one over 100. Does it get tiring to move those goalposts all over the field?
Hmm as to a stat bonus added twice to say AC I can and have thought of one further up in the thread, posted shortly after your question.First off what does "OB" stand for? I know OP generally means original poster.Oops... I meant OP, typo.
I know we disagree on the interpretation, and that's okay.
Did you ever think of another stat bonus that added twice to the same thing?
I haven't yet, but I'm not up on all the rules, especially UM and UC. That might set up a precedence, rather than this question on iterpretation setting up the first instance of that.
As to precedence to having a bonus twice as far as I know in Pathfinder there is no other ability that modifies something twice other than a paladins smite (Cha to AC) plus this featOsyluth Guile (Combat)P:Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27
You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.
Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.
Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defence action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.
Thanks to the archive of nethys for easy feat database
So Palys could get double CHA to AC vs one opponent that they smite. I guess thats sort of a history.
I know also in 3.5 there were several ways to get an ability mod applied twice or even three times to AC, so its sort of a tradition.
That ability adds to a "dodge bonus to AC" while the paladin CHA thing is a "deflection bonus to AC". Is that the same thing? Meh. I'll let someone else discuss that. It's certainly better than nothing.
While similar, I don't think it would be the same thing. Since while you are adding CHA twice, it is being added to 2 different bonuses. The deflection bonus wouldn't stack with anything else that gives the same type of bonus, so you would just take whatever gives the higher bonus.
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
That ability adds to a "dodge bonus to AC" while the paladin CHA thing is a "deflection bonus to AC". Is that the same thing? Meh. I'll let someone else discuss that. It's certainly better than nothingIs "Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27" Pathfinder or 3rd party?
I think much of 3.5 material is considered "house rule" territory these days. If we can stick with Pathfinder, we can answer it with more certainty. If you are allowed to use 3.5 material in your campaign, then that would be a moot point.
Cheliax: empire of devils is a pathfinder product. I mearly mentioned the 3.5 material as a point of interest; such material is not included nor elaborated upon in anything I've posted here (I agree with your opinion that 3.5 on pathfinder boards is regarded in the same vein as house rules)
Edit houuse to house.