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We ran into an instance in a game where a foe wearing armor with medium fortification was unconscious. The rogue in the group wanted to coup de grace him. It says under coup de grace that:
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
So how would this work?
Would you:A) Treat fortification as a passive defense. You roll vs. fortification as normal and if it kicks in, then he's immune to that particular crit and can't be killed by that particular coup de grace attack; or
B) Treat fortification as a function of the armor, which is bypassed by a Coup de Grace since you don't roll to hit, and thereby making it a non-issue.
Thoughts?
I'd treat it as A.
definitely A.
Immunity to Crits doesn`t care about the chance to hit, or the chance to Crit (normally).
Coup-de-Grace still counts as `an attack` (that does Crit damage),
and that is what Fortification applies to (attacks that Crit),
just as if you had an ability that does damage to anybody that attacks you without reach, it would trigger from a CdG.
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The restriction noted in the description of coup de grace refers to a creature being immune to critical hits. Unless you have 100% fortification on your armor, you're not immune. And due to the way exception clauses work in the english language, you have to satisfy condition X to get the associated exception, and if you don't satisfy condition X, you default to normal procedure.
The criteria which must be met to fall under that exception clause is to be immune to critical hits. Armor fortification does not make you immune. Thus, you fail to be covered by the exception clause and default back to the normal implementation of the coup de grace.
And aside from that, I think it's obvious that the intent is to prevent a CdG against creatures like oozes where it's actually impossible.
I guess it`s arguable whether the DMG to Fort DC or Die would still apply,
but Fortification (when it works) definitely prevents attacks from Critting.
I would say the DC or Die wouldn`t apply, because as far as that Coup-de-Grace knows, you were Immune,
but like I said, that is at least arguable... If it applies, the DC is at least based on normal damage only.
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We ran into an instance in a game where a foe wearing armor with medium fortification was unconscious. The rogue in the group wanted to coup de grace him.
So how would this work?
Ignore the immunity clause.
Coup de Grace: "You automatically hit and score a critical hit."
Fortification: "When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally."
So: Perform the Coup de Grace, roll for Fortification. If the Fortification succeeds, the crit is negated and damage is rolled normally. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save or die. The Fort save is not related to the critical hit, and preventing the critical hit does not negate the entire Coup de Gras.
We ran into an instance in a game where a foe wearing armor with medium fortification was unconscious. The rogue in the group wanted to coup de grace him.
So how would this work?Ignore the immunity clause.
Coup de Grace: "You automatically hit and score a critical hit."
Fortification: "When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally."
So: Perform the Coup de Grace, roll for Fortification. If the Fortification succeeds, the crit is negated and damage is rolled normally. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save or die. The Fort save is not related to the critical hit, and preventing the critical hit does not negate the entire Coup de Gras.
This exactly. Fortification, even when it successfully triggers, does not provide "immunity to critical hits." It simply negates a single critical hit, turning it into a normal hit. It works not on the wearer of the armor, but on the attack itself. Thus, it provides no protection against the fort save or die that a coup de grace inspires.
At the same time, it can still protect against the extra damage from the sneak attack and the critical hit. So roll that normally to see how much damage is dealt, then make the fort save with a DC based on that amount of damage.
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In the groups I've played in we've always done it as option "A". Back in the 3.5 days Heavy Fortification would actually make you immune to crits and sneak attacks (100% fortification) in Pathfinder the most you can get, at least from the Core Book, is 75% which to me would mean that the rogue makes his Coup de Grace and rolls to see if he actually succeeds on the crit or not. If he does, then the Coup de Grace is taken care of how the rules states. If the he doesn't actually score the crit he just deals regular damage and there's no fort save needed.
I can see this being a little on the fuzzy side of the rules so the best thing to do is sit down with your group and talk to them and see what they come up with as reasonable for your group.
We went with A, at the time, although I argued that it was a function of the armor itself, and that was bypassed by not requiring a roll to hit, and wouldn't have anything to trigger against...since fluff wise your putting blade directly against skin and cutting, effectively.
But, I also see the other side of it, and am ok with it.
Thanks for the input!
+1 to the fortification (on a successful block) would negate the critical hit part, but not the fort save to not die from the Coup de Grace.
Doesn't seem implausible that it could protect you. I mean, it is magic armor, and a CdG is (probably) still done under a bit of duress. 6 seconds, even against something not moving, is hardly enough time for some real surgical work. You go to cut the throat and it catches on a neck guard- still cutting but not nearly as viciously.
I argued that it was a function of the armor itself, and that was bypassed by not requiring a roll to hit, and wouldn't have anything to trigger against...since fluff wise your putting blade directly against skin and cutting, effectively.
I don´t actually see any such fluff rationale. It doesn´t say you bypass armor, it just says you automatically hit.
I would compare it more to spending a Full-Round action vs. a Helpless target to ´Take 20´, automatically Critting.That hits any AC, and in this case also bypasses most Miss Chance or whatever else.