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MageHunter wrote: What if the Tarrasque is a spoiled favorite child? Then Rovagug becomes especially sad at losing it?
Like I said above, there's no indication or evidence that I'm aware of that Rovagug is even capable of that level of direct, personal divine-scale intervention on Golarion itself while he's sealed away. When you boil it down, that's the whole point of him being sealed away at all: to keep him from adversely affecting the larger creation. Wouldn't be much of a seal if it didn't limit what he could do...
And sure, you can always play the "what if?" game. The GM can always say "what if Rovagug wasn't actually as limited by the seal as the evidence seems to point to him being, and he resurrects the Tarrasque, even though he didn't resurrect Xotani?" But now you've gone way beyond the Big T's actual stat block into straight-up plot device land, and the same thing applies just as equally well to literally anything else the players could come up with.
Witch Generational Eternal Slumber Hex plan? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make the Slumber Hex just not work on the Tarrasque?"
Soul Bind approach? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make the Soul Bind fail?"
The classic plane shift it to sun? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make your plane shift fail?"
Hit it with a sword? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make you always miss?"
At that point you're not even talking about "the Tarrasque" anymore, making its actual nature (and statblock) rather irrelevant. It could just as easily be a level 1 commoner that Rovagug (or any other deity) has taken a shine to for whatever "what if" reason.
Tyinyk wrote: If it doesn't come back to life awake, that's an easy way to make sure there's always another witch. Just Coup De Grace the Tarrasque enough times that you gain all the required levels. Awarding Experience wrote: Characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures—in so doing, they earn experience points (XP for short). There is no challenge in performing a coup de grace on an unconscious/helpless creature. The person overcoming the challenge was the one who bound it in slumber.
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claymade wrote:
At that point you're not even talking about "the Tarrasque" anymore, making its actual nature (and statblock) rather irrelevant. It could just as easily be a level 1 commoner that Rovagug (or any other deity) has taken a shine to for whatever "what if" reason.
That'll be my next campaign. The Reign of Joe, the Level 1 commoner the Gods made unkillable.
claymade wrote: MageHunter wrote: What if the Tarrasque is a spoiled favorite child? Then Rovagug becomes especially sad at losing it?
Like I said above, there's no indication or evidence that I'm aware of that Rovagug is even capable of that level of direct, personal divine-scale intervention on Golarion itself while he's sealed away. When you boil it down, that's the whole point of him being sealed away at all: to keep him from adversely affecting the larger creation. Wouldn't be much of a seal if it didn't limit what he could do...
And sure, you can always play the "what if?" game. The GM can always say "what if Rovagug wasn't actually as limited by the seal as the evidence seems to point to him being, and he resurrects the Tarrasque, even though he didn't resurrect Xotani?" But now you've gone way beyond the Big T's actual stat block into straight-up plot device land, and the same thing applies just as equally well to literally anything else the players could come up with.
Witch Generational Eternal Slumber Hex plan? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make the Slumber Hex just not work on the Tarrasque?"
Soul Bind approach? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make the Soul Bind fail?"
The classic plane shift it to sun? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make your plane shift fail?"
Hit it with a sword? "Oh, but what if Rovagug just uses direct divine intervention to make you always miss?"
At that point you're not even talking about "the Tarrasque" anymore, making its actual nature (and statblock) rather irrelevant. It could just as easily be a level 1 commoner that Rovagug (or any other deity) has taken a shine to for whatever "what if" reason. The possibility of divine intervention is explicitly invoked by the Sphere of Annihilation.
That the Tarrasque is directly tied to a deity is also explicit in the statblock.
If that intervention occurs is strictly GM fiat, but then, so is the availability of a Sphere of Annihilation.
I'd say it's pretty challenging for a low-level character to hack through the mountain of meat that is a Tarrasque.
Tyinyk wrote: I'd say it's pretty challenging for a low-level character to hack through the mountain of meat that is a Tarrasque. It would also be challenging for them to chop down an ironwood tree.
Not going to grant xp for that either.
Snowlilly wrote: The possibility of divine intervention is explicitly invoked by the Sphere of Annihilation. I don't follow what you're trying to say here. The text in no way, shape or form says that there's anything about what the Sphere does to its victims that makes direct divine intervention more likely, or in any way easier. It just notes that it's the only thing that could ever possibly work.
So yes, if Rovagug is both willing and able to directly intervene on Golarion to resurrect the Tarrasque from being sucked into the Sphere, then there's no logical reason I can see why he couldn't use that very same direct divine intervention to thwart any other plan the PCs might bring to bear against the Tarrasque, just as easily.
Or, more likely given Rovagug's temperament, just rip the PCs to tiny shreds before they can implement it, no save.
The fact that he isn't doing things like that--given his observed behavior when he was free--is one of the many indications that he's no longer capable of exerting the kind of direct divine intervention on Golarion.
Which is, once again, the whole point of sealing something like him away in the first place.
Snowlilly wrote: That the Tarrasque is directly tied to a deity is also explicit in the statblock. Out of curiosity, where? I looked on this link, but I wasn't able to find it.
Maybe we should just geas the two tarrasque versions to fight each other for all time.
claymade wrote:
Snowlilly wrote: That the Tarrasque is directly tied to a deity is also explicit in the statblock. Out of curiosity, where? I looked on this link, but I wasn't able to find it.
Tarrasque
claymade wrote:
Snowlilly wrote: That the Tarrasque is directly tied to a deity is also explicit in the statblock. Out of curiosity, where? I looked on this link, but I wasn't able to find it.
That is the original version from the Bestiary. The updated version is in Inner Sea Gods, and looks like This Guy Right Here.
Amusingly enough, that version is still missing the Godspawn and Herald Subtypes; even thought the Tarrasque has both as of now.
It's immune to mind-affecting effects
Tarrasque wrote: If the Tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. Actually, after you kill it, you could just keep hacking at it's corpse to keep it down. Just have generations of "Corpsehackers" to keep the Tarrasque dead.
Tyinyk wrote: Tarrasque wrote: If the Tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. Actually, after you kill it, you could just keep hacking at it's corpse to keep it down. Just have generations of "Corpsehackers" to keep the Tarrasque dead. What if they have to take a bathroom break?
Actually, that was a joke but maybe some programmed golems.
I was imagining a few hundred people on shift at once, for maximum redundancy. An automated "Body-smasher" seems like it would work, though you'd want to have multiple going on, and a support staff to make sure one breakdown doesn't ruin everything.
Issac Daneil wrote: It's immune to mind-affecting effects If you have access to an Ember Weaver Psychopomp, then you can get rid of that. Move action into range, standard action Eerie Radiance, caster goes to town with mind-affecting spells.
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Tyinyk wrote: I was imagining a few hundred people on shift at once, for maximum redundancy. An automated "Body-smasher" seems like it would work, though you'd want to have multiple going on, and a support staff to make sure one breakdown doesn't ruin everything. Well, if you're only interested in keeping it at bay, and not actually killing it, my favorite method is the old lock-it-in-a-permanent-timeless-null-magic-demiplane-with-no-egress-portal method. That's another situation where you more or less need direct divine intervention to get it out.
Anyway, while almost any mortal means of killing the Tarrasque (or any other living thing in existence) won't stop a deity from bringing it back, there is one single exception that I'm aware of. If the victory conditions isn't "perma-kill the Tarrasque in a way that it stays dead as long as Rovagug doesn't get free from his prison to revive it" but rather "perma-kill the Tarrasque in such a way that it stays dead even if Rovagug breaks free and wants to resurrect it" then I submit the following approach:
Step 1) Beat the Tarrasque into the negatives, and keep it there
Step 2) Create a Simulacrum of Nocticula
Step 3) Keep exposing the Tarrasque to the Simulacrum's Seductive Presence Aura for days until it fails its save, removing its immunity to mind-affecting effects
Step 4) Find a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and put it on and take it off the Tarrasque's head until it rolls a natural one
Step 5) The Tarrasque is now Lawful Good, making it much easier to deal with now that it's benevolent. However, what we really care about is that it's now lawful. Next, hit it with a Geas to become a Level 20 Monk of the Healing Hand
Step 6) Take it to a monastery you scouted ahead of time for its initial training. Then, take it on a whirlwind adventure of power-leveling. You're going to need a LOT of xp, but hey, we never said this would be easy.
Step 7) Once it's level 20, manufacture a fake situation where it looks like your party is losing, and the whole world will be doomed unless you win, prompting the newly benevolent Tarrasque to sacrifice itself using its level 20 capstone to save Golarion.
Congratulations! The Tarrasque is now dead in a way that even if Rovagug did escape from his captivity, he could do nothing about.
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claymade wrote: Tyinyk wrote: I was imagining a few hundred people on shift at once, for maximum redundancy. An automated "Body-smasher" seems like it would work, though you'd want to have multiple going on, and a support staff to make sure one breakdown doesn't ruin everything. Well, if you're only interested in keeping it at bay, and not actually killing it, my favorite method is the old lock-it-in-a-permanent-timeless-null-magic-demiplane-with-no-egress-portal method. That's another situation where you more or less need direct divine intervention to get it out.
Anyway, while almost any mortal means of killing the Tarrasque (or any other living thing in existence) won't stop a deity from bringing it back, there is one single exception that I'm aware of. If the victory conditions isn't "perma-kill the Tarrasque in a way that it stays dead as long as Rovagug doesn't get free from his prison to revive it" but rather "perma-kill the Tarrasque in such a way that it stays dead even if Rovagug breaks free and wants to resurrect it" then I submit the following approach:
Step 1) Beat the Tarrasque into the negatives, and keep it there
Step 2) Create a Simulacrum of Nocticula
Step 3) Keep exposing the Tarrasque to the Simulacrum's Seductive Presence Aura for days until it fails its save, removing its immunity to mind-affecting effects
Step 4) Find a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and put it on and take it off the Tarrasque's head until it rolls a natural one
Step 5) The Tarrasque is now Lawful Good, making it much easier to deal with now that it's benevolent. However, what we really care about is that it's now lawful. Next, hit it with a Geas to become a Level 20 Monk of the Healing... Congratulations! As mentioned upthread, there are slightly faster ways to remove its immunity to Mind-affecting stuff, but in the time-frame of this plan, it doesn't matter much.
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You could pretty much just stop after step 4, since "The Tarrasque" as an engine of doom is dead, personality-wise. Now you have "Fluffy" the incredibly powerful force of law and good.
Just don't Jay-Walk around him.
A society of untempered law would be a terrible thing.
The Sideromancer wrote: As mentioned upthread, there are slightly faster ways to remove its immunity to Mind-affecting stuff, but in the time-frame of this plan, it doesn't matter much. Yeah, I went with that particular approach because my cursory check didn't find much about Ember Weavers on d20pfsrd, which is my main go-to site, and I wasn't quite sure how that fit in with mainline Golarion or what it might entail to get one of those. I figured I'd just stick with an approach that I was familiar with.
Tyinyk wrote: You could pretty much just stop after step 4, since "The Tarrasque" as an engine of doom is dead, personality-wise. True, but plot-device level deity powers could doubtless undo the effect of a Helm of Opposite Alignment.
The particular goal with this one was to tackle the "bonus round" of putting the solution to the Tarrasque beyond the power of even Rovagug to undo, should he ever regain his former ability to once again menace Golarion directly (as opposed to through his various proxies).
And undoing the Monk of the Healing Hand's capstone is one of the very few things accessible to mortals that are explicitly stated to be beyond even that level of power.
But yeah, you're absolutely right that for normal in-the-course-of-most-campaigns purposes, you wouldn't need to go nearly so far to effectively end the threat, practically speaking. This was, admittedly, in large part an exercise in support of the most holy Lord British Postulate. ;-)
claymade wrote: True, but plot-device level deity powers could doubtless undo the effect of a Helm of Opposite Alignment. If that's a concern, you'll want to have a team to go with the Tarrasque on his quest to hit level 20, because there's plenty of time to undo the helmet on that journey. The team'll be there to re-up it if they need to.
Tyinyk wrote: If that's a concern, you'll want to have a team to go with the Tarrasque on his quest to hit level 20, because there's plenty of time to undo the helmet on that journey. The team'll be there to re-up it if they need to. Oh, sure, I guess I should have made that explicit, but yeah, I'd assumed you'd be watching over it along the way in case some crazed cultist manages to hit level 17 in a full-casting class that has access to Wish or Miracle, and decides to try to free the Big T from your plot.
I was expecting we sign this thing on in Heaven's army and let it gain exp from bashing demon lords. The other archons on the squad can watch for alignment shifing effects. Also, it may be a good setup for the capstone, as it may be ruled that the tarrasque does not beat DR/good.
claymade wrote: Congratulations! The Tarrasque is now dead in a way that even if Rovagug did escape from his captivity, he could do nothing about. He could always make a second Tarrasque. It'll be harder than just reviving the old one, but the Tarrasque has to come from somewhere.
Saethori wrote: claymade wrote: Congratulations! The Tarrasque is now dead in a way that even if Rovagug did escape from his captivity, he could do nothing about. He could always make a second Tarrasque. It'll be harder than just reviving the old one, but the Tarrasque has to come from somewhere. I shudder to consider who the mother could be...
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
You might be interested in a recently created campaign setting set in a city built around an imprisoned Tarasque that is constantly harvested for meat.
http://www.saltinwoundssetting.com/2015/04/salt-in-wounds-overview-origin.h tml#more
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I suppose it would be possible to destroy the Tarrasque by using a Wish to negate all strong nuclear interactions. The result of this would be that all matter would effectively fall apart releasing the binding energy as radiation. Even if it reformed after three rounds, the lack of the strong nuclear force would cause it to detonate in a massive nuclear explosion once again. This could only happen with a player sufficiently disengaged from the campaign to make such a wish, and a GM sufficiently disengaged to allow it to be granted. Total apathy is one thing that not even the Tarrasque is safe from.
Eoghnved wrote: I suppose it would be possible to destroy the Tarrasque by using a Wish to negate all strong nuclear interactions. The result of this would be that all matter would effectively fall apart releasing the binding energy as radiation. Even if it reformed after three rounds, the lack of the strong nuclear force would cause it to detonate in a massive nuclear explosion once again. This could only happen with a player sufficiently disengaged from the campaign to make such a wish, and a GM sufficiently disengaged to allow it to be granted. Total apathy is one thing that not even the Tarrasque is safe from. For that matter, removing the electromagnetic force would have a similar effect. I hope nobody needed interactions between atoms...
The Sideromancer wrote: Eoghnved wrote: I suppose it would be possible to destroy the Tarrasque by using a Wish to negate all strong nuclear interactions. The result of this would be that all matter would effectively fall apart releasing the binding energy as radiation. Even if it reformed after three rounds, the lack of the strong nuclear force would cause it to detonate in a massive nuclear explosion once again. This could only happen with a player sufficiently disengaged from the campaign to make such a wish, and a GM sufficiently disengaged to allow it to be granted. Total apathy is one thing that not even the Tarrasque is safe from. For that matter, removing the electromagnetic force would have a similar effect. I hope nobody needed interactions between atoms... Ghosts should still be okay.
johnlocke90 wrote: The Sideromancer wrote: Eoghnved wrote: I suppose it would be possible to destroy the Tarrasque by using a Wish to negate all strong nuclear interactions. The result of this would be that all matter would effectively fall apart releasing the binding energy as radiation. Even if it reformed after three rounds, the lack of the strong nuclear force would cause it to detonate in a massive nuclear explosion once again. This could only happen with a player sufficiently disengaged from the campaign to make such a wish, and a GM sufficiently disengaged to allow it to be granted. Total apathy is one thing that not even the Tarrasque is safe from. For that matter, removing the electromagnetic force would have a similar effect. I hope nobody needed interactions between atoms... Ghosts should still be okay. Ghosts can be affected by beams of charged particles. This implies that their essence is somehow tied to the electromagnetic force. In contrast, their lack of apparent mass means they are not composed of conventional atoms, and so ghosts may not require the strong force to exist.
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