If we were to exchange players for a while their view on wands would probably change. My players would not care about them as much, and yours would start to buy them.Yes, agreed. The style of the table is everything.
I wonder if that applies to the OP's premise? Is the majority of Pathfinder play of the non-pull-punches type?
Most GM's I have played under, or have observed pull punches every once in a while, but most of the time the dice and your actions determine you success. In those games the wands are nice to have. The only thing that is universal is that they don't give you the boss fight. You have to earn those.
Our group has actually incorporated healing surges due to our tendency to create parties with no dedicated healer. Nothing as chilling as the words: "Sorry, I'm not THAT kind of cleric".
"Sorry, I'm not THAT kind of cleric".
I'd think that would be a relief in some circumstances...
I first learned the value of the CLW wand in Shackled City. It was then that I looked at the idea of buying potions vs a wand. I convinced the other players to pool our money together to get one. I was never really a cure potion fan before then, and after that I don't think I ever purchase anything over a cure light.
I have considered lowering the price on the cure line of potions. They are just not economically efficient. If a GM banned the wands I would just buy scrolls.
I'm considering of allowing any potion a PC drinks can either be maximized or extended for free. This would make CLW potions a little more worth the price of admission, well all potions in general. Which I think is a good thing, I think potions are not really worth it for the most part. Might try it out for my next game and see how it goes.
Another house rule I forgot to mention: We let magic items do a certain amount of automatic healing. A cure light from a potion or wand, for example, grants 4+minimum caster lvl(1)+1d4. Again, this is a group that frequently has no healer whatsoever.
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I think the party should be able to achieve full hit points when out of initative. If you are the GM aren't your monsters at full hit points when your players encounter them?
Only because they haven't been fighting anything else recently. Smart BBEGs use their HQs and their minions to weaken opponents before they can get to them. Or if a monster gets away and your party tracks it back down, should its HPs auto-reset to full as well?
I know there are several games that use automatic healing and mana-renewal, but I don't like any of them.
A world without wands of CLW is a world where people spend a great deal more time resting and a great deal less time adventuring. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.
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A world without wands of CLW is a world where people spend a great deal more time resting and a great deal less time adventuring. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.
Depends on whether that's in-world time, or game time. In-world, no problem. Game time, it might not be a whole lot either way.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, this might sound strange...
What if natural healing healed Base Attack Bonus + Con modifier (min of 1) per day?
It would mean the fighter types heal faster than the wizard types (which making level + Con modifer wouldn't) and make natural healing a bit more pracitcal.
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A world without wands of CLW is a world where people spend a great deal more time resting and a great deal less time adventuring. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.
A world with wands of CLW is a world where people go from mucking the stables to slaying dragons in less than a year's timespan. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that makes any damn sense whatsoever or not.
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A world without wands of CLW is a world where people spend a great deal more time resting and a great deal less time adventuring. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.A world with wands of CLW is a world where people go from mucking the stables to slaying dragons in less than a year's timespan. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that makes any damn sense whatsoever or not.
When fantasy roleplaying starts making sense you need to reasses your dosage.
I'm not letting my parties use wand of clw. I've already stated my groups never spend money on them. And my BBEGs don't allow them to rest, either. The PCs are usually on the clock and if they want to sit down and rest, unless they do so very cleverly, they'll most likely get interrupted. However, that doesn't mean they're in initiative the whole time. One of the arguments upthread was that PCs ought to go back to full HP when they go out of initiative and back into "normal" between-combat time.
If the enemy who runs away has a potion or spells or some way to cure itself, then yes, it will be cured, just like the party has time to quaff a potion or cast spells for a few rounds. However, just because it's not staying in initiative doesn't mean it gets to go back to full HP. Which is what I'm arguing against.
I'm not letting my parties use wand of clw. I've already stated my groups never spend money on them. And my BBEGs don't allow them to rest, either. The PCs are usually on the clock and if they want to sit down and rest, unless they do so very cleverly, they'll most likely get interrupted. However, that doesn't mean they're in initiative the whole time. One of the arguments upthread was that PCs ought to go back to full HP when they go out of initiative and back into "normal" between-combat time.
If the enemy who runs away has a potion or spells or some way to cure itself, then yes, it will be cured, just like the party has time to quaff a potion or cast spells for a few rounds. However, just because it's not staying in initiative doesn't mean it gets to go back to full HP. Which is what I'm arguing against.
That does not sound like a fun group.
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When fantasy roleplaying starts making sense you need to reasses your dosage.
Everyone knows I'm a huge fan of smarmyness, but, seriously. C'mon. There are plenty of elements of reality in fantasy roleplaying. Where a lack of correlation exists, it's either endearing (I'm looking at you, fireball) or annoying. 20-year-olds who have achieved the pinnacles of their career - that's annoyingly divergent from what common sense would dictate.
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That does not sound like a fun group.I'm not letting my parties use wand of clw. I've already stated my groups never spend money on them. And my BBEGs don't allow them to rest, either. The PCs are usually on the clock and if they want to sit down and rest, unless they do so very cleverly, they'll most likely get interrupted. However, that doesn't mean they're in initiative the whole time. One of the arguments upthread was that PCs ought to go back to full HP when they go out of initiative and back into "normal" between-combat time.
If the enemy who runs away has a potion or spells or some way to cure itself, then yes, it will be cured, just like the party has time to quaff a potion or cast spells for a few rounds. However, just because it's not staying in initiative doesn't mean it gets to go back to full HP. Which is what I'm arguing against.
I cordially disagree.
Clarification: I'm not "letting my players use wands of clw," as stated by Maezer. The party right now has 2 wands, one light and one moderate, one of which was loot and the other was a gift from their allies. But they don't have a cleric or an oracle. None of them have ever had any interest in purchasing a wand of cure anything in any other game, nor do they want to spend their own money on it in this one.
I was responding to the accusation that I was running my BBEGs like idiots because I'm "letting them" cure up to full between encounters. Which most emphatically is not happening. The main melee guy once went 2 days in-game down about half his HPs because they didn't have time to stop and rest or allies to aid the bard in healing.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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We've never leaned to heavily on the wand of CLW so I wouldn't miss it overmuch. One of the things I really like is the fact that many of the new hybrid classes have their own healing and can act largely independently. Inquisitor and alchemist are both amazingly independent, summoner can be pretty self contained as well.
A world without wands of CLW is a world where people spend a great deal more time resting and a great deal less time adventuring. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a good or bad thing.A world with wands of CLW is a world where people go from mucking the stables to slaying dragons in less than a year's timespan. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that makes any damn sense whatsoever or not.
When you play an AP it's kinda hard to do otherwise, and from what i have heard most of Paizo's APs are pretty short on time.
Ok I'll add my 2 cents worth here..
In a Carrion Crown PbP game here on the boards I'm playing a Healer witch with the cauldron hex. Now this would suggest that I could produce enough potions of CLW to cover any gaps in our healing( we have no Cleric or Oracle I'm the Primary healer and our Inquisitor is the secondary.)
..And I'm struggling..struggling to keep the party on their feet because they won't rest between encounters..struggling to afford the ingredients I need to make the potions and struggling to find the time to manufacture the potions we need to keep everyone at full HP.It's got to the point that I'm considering switching to Cleric because the requirement for a healbot is becoming paramount.
I would gladly kill for a wand of CLW if only to relieve some of the pressure on my abilites.
Ok I'll add my 2 cents worth here..
In a Carrion Crown PbP game here on the boards I'm playing a Healer witch with the cauldron hex. Now this would suggest that I could produce enough potions of CLW to cover any gaps in our healing( we have no Cleric or Oracle I'm the Primary healer and our Inquisitor is the secondary.)
..And I'm struggling..struggling to keep the party on their feet because they won't rest between encounters..struggling to afford the ingredients I need to make the potions and struggling to find the time to manufacture the potions we need to keep everyone at full HP.It's got to the point that I'm considering switching to Cleric because the requirement for a healbot is becoming paramount.
I would gladly kill for a wand of CLW if only to relieve some of the pressure on my abilites.
So why doesn't the party go to buy some?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Is now the time to point out that crafting Troll Styptic with Craft Alchemy is nearly as affordable as a wand of cure light wounds on a gp/ hp healed?
5.5hp/(750gp/50) = .3667hp healed per gold
10hp/ 33.33 gp = .3 hp healed per gold
I'm a big fan of it because it's easier to buy in small quantities and your healing is less bursty. (2d4 rounds of fast healing 2 versus 1d8+1)
Is now the time to point out that crafting Troll Styptic with Craft Alchemy is nearly as affordable as a wand of cure light wounds on a gp/ hp healed?
5.5hp/(750gp/50) = .3667hp healed per gold
10hp/ 33.33 gp = .3 hp healed per goldI'm a big fan of it because it's easier to buy in small quantities and your healing is less bursty. (2d4 rounds of fast healing 2 versus 1d8+1)
What book is that in?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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What book is that in?Is now the time to point out that crafting Troll Styptic with Craft Alchemy is nearly as affordable as a wand of cure light wounds on a gp/ hp healed?
5.5hp/(750gp/50) = .3667hp healed per gold
10hp/ 33.33 gp = .3 hp healed per goldI'm a big fan of it because it's easier to buy in small quantities and your healing is less bursty. (2d4 rounds of fast healing 2 versus 1d8+1)
Adventurers armory.
What book is that in?Is now the time to point out that crafting Troll Styptic with Craft Alchemy is nearly as affordable as a wand of cure light wounds on a gp/ hp healed?
5.5hp/(750gp/50) = .3667hp healed per gold
10hp/ 33.33 gp = .3 hp healed per goldI'm a big fan of it because it's easier to buy in small quantities and your healing is less bursty. (2d4 rounds of fast healing 2 versus 1d8+1)
Adventurers armory.
Thank you.
Now how fast an alchemist can create these?
I don't have anything against wands, and I don't want easy healing between fights (i.e., without using resources like spells, potions, wand charges, etc.). Hit points are a resource to be managed just like spells, rounds of rage or bardic performance, smites, etc. There's my cards on the table.
Do people generally agree that the game does not suffer if PCs start most fights at full HP?
Playing RAW (without my houserule from upthread) when my PCs have any significant HP loss before a fight, they will go to great lengths to avoid that fight. I call this "being smart."
The CLW wand makes it so that money and availability remove this kind of fear of encounters from the game. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I just choose to waive the expense and availability part, and let them start at full HP if they would have had time to cast a bunch of cures anyway. No healer necessary.
Do people generally agree that the game does not suffer if PCs start most fights at full HP?
At it's core, pre-4th ED D&D is about resource management. So the game does lose some of it's tension if hit-points are refilled for free.
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Do people generally agree that the game does not suffer if PCs start most fights at full HP?
I don't. See above. :)
I wouldn't want to play a game where you auto-heal any more than I would want to play one where you get all your spells back after every fight.
Here's the problem though, its the cleric managing the fighters hit points, not anyone managing their OWN resources. That's bad because if the cleric screws up the fighter pays for it, and if the fighter is an idiot and gets massive attacks of opportunity the cleric needs to blow more spells to keep him up instead of doing something fun.
Here's the problem though, its the cleric managing the fighters hit points, not anyone managing their OWN resources. That's bad because if the cleric screws up the fighter pays for it, and if the fighter is an idiot and gets massive attacks of opportunity the cleric needs to blow more spells to keep him up instead of doing something fun.
System working as intended. Doesn't mean you have to like it, doesn't mean you can't change it, but that's the way pre-4th ed is supposed to work.
Here's the problem though, its the cleric managing the fighters hit points, not anyone managing their OWN resources.
How is that any different from the bard managing rounds of Inspire Courage for the whole party? Or any other caster managing party buffs such as Bull's Strength or Bless or anything else that the fighter can't manage "on his own?" If the caster panics and blows his only haste on what turns out to be a cakewalk encounter, should I let him have his spells back, too?
compare 3.5 to 1E.
You had CLW, which was 1-8 hit points, no scaling, level 1 (2 if druid).
You had CSW, 2d8+1, level 4!!!
You had CCW, level 5, 3d8+3.
And then you had Heal, which took care of all but 1-4 hit points.
Then you had the paladin able to lay on hands for 2 hp/level/day, and paladins and rangers could use CLW in their spell slots.
Then you had potions of Healing and Extra Healing.
And the Staff of Healing.
And the Ring of Regeneration (and Ioun stone).
And that was it for healing in the core rules. Sure, they added Faith Healing and Cure Moderate at level 2 and Harps of Healing and whatnot, but core 1E was light on healing. The idea of resting up and letting time pass to regain hit points was a part of the game.
Granted, things did less damage, and there weren't as many HP to heal. But it was common to go into fights wounded, simply because there wasn't enough healing to go around, and you had to be smart.
Wands of CLW just help with the video game go go go mechanic...and help offset replacing the one asset Melees have that is expended over time, hit points. It's a MELEE BIAS item...I wouldn't knock it.
==Aelryinth
Just found unlimited healing by core rules in pathfinder should be legal for organized play.
Glorious Heat feat from faiths of purity, it lets you heal an ally within 30' of you for half your level every time you cast a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark orison has the fire descriptor.
So yeah no more wands of cure light wounds just 5th level clerics of Sarenrae. Actually the way the feat reads a 5th level wizard 1st level cleric can get it too, its just cast divine spells and 5th level caster.
Just found unlimited healing by core rules in pathfinder should be legal for organized play.
Glorious Heat feat from faiths of purity, it lets you heal an ally within 30' of you for half your level every time you cast a divine spell with the fire descriptor. Spark orison has the fire descriptor.
So yeah no more wands of cure light wounds just 5th level clerics of Sarenrae. Actually the way the feat reads a 5th level wizard 1st level cleric can get it too, its just cast divine spells and 5th level caster.
Yes that was errata'd for PFS.
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When fantasy roleplaying starts making sense you need to reasses your dosage.Everyone knows I'm a huge fan of smarmyness, but, seriously. C'mon. There are plenty of elements of reality in fantasy roleplaying. Where a lack of correlation exists, it's either endearing (I'm looking at you, fireball) or annoying. 20-year-olds who have achieved the pinnacles of their career - that's annoyingly divergent from what common sense would dictate.
That is how the game works, unless you want to bog games down with extensive paperwork and time management, and have a campaign last 10 years of your life you will have to except these things. You want a "real life" adventure join the military.
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Here's the problem though, its the cleric managing the fighters hit points, not anyone managing their OWN resources. That's bad because if the cleric screws up the fighter pays for it, and if the fighter is an idiot and gets massive attacks of opportunity the cleric needs to blow more spells to keep him up instead of doing something fun.
Yeah true, but if the fighter dies because of some idiotic cleric (as happened to me twice in Living Greyhawk)does not do the job, it is possible the cleric is not reinvited.
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That is how the game works, unless you want to bog games down with extensive paperwork and time management, and have a campaign last 10 years of your life you will have to except these things. You want a "real life" adventure join the military.
Hi, Nimon. I see you're sort of new here, having been around since June. I'd like to take the opportunity to introduce myself.
My name's Jeremy, I'm 33 years old and I've played D&D since 1995. That's 16 years of experience; not as much as some of the folks around here (maybe not as much as you!), but plenty long enough to not need the game explained to me as though I was ten. Thanks for giving it a shot, though.
Perhaps you can help me, though; I can't for the life of me understand how there's "extensive paperwork" involved with not using wands of CLW. Is there some type of long form I have to fill out every time the party wants to rest? Do I need to write up a requisition in triplicate each time a potion is consumed, or a Channel Energy goes off? Am I doing it wrong? Because now I'm seriously worried that the IRS may be coming to audit me.
See, I'm having a hard time figuring out how any of that stuff happening takes any longer or requires more paperwork than the exercise of the CLW Wand user declaring who he's healing and then rolling a d8 five times in succession, with pauses for math and ticking off charges in between.
To top that off, campaigns are now going to take ten years of my life! Man! I'm guessing you're taking your cue for that statement from the Iraq war, which is a real-life example of a campaign that has lasted 10 years in which there are no wands of Cure Light Wounds in the hands of the field medics. I'm not sure it's a great example, but I can only imagine that it's what you are referring to, since you've not given me any other information to work with. Maybe I'm supposed to just take your word for it because you've played this game, and I haven't. Oh, wait. Yes, I have. So it can't be that.
Finally, people who join the military do so for many different reasons, but I don't think "was told to by a stranger on the internet" or "D&D isn't realistic enough" are very high on any accurate list of those reasons.
Ross or Liz is going to delete this post in all likelihood (Love you guys! Sorry!). But that's OK. Maybe they'll laugh once or twice before they do.
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That is how the game works, unless you want to bog games down with extensive paperwork and time management, and have a campaign last 10 years of your life you will have to except these things. You want a "real life" adventure join the military.Hi, Nimon. I see you're sort of new here, having been around since June. I'd like to take the opportunity to introduce myself.
My name's Jeremy, I'm 33 years old and I've played D&D since 1995. That's 16 years of experience; not as much as some of the folks around here (maybe not as much as you!), but plenty long enough to not need the game explained to me as though I was ten. Thanks for giving it a shot, though.
Perhaps you can help me, though; I can't for the life of me understand how there's "extensive paperwork" involved with not using wands of CLW. Is there some type of long form I have to fill out every time the party wants to rest? Do I need to write up a requisition in triplicate each time a potion is consumed, or a Channel Energy goes off? Am I doing it wrong? Because now I'm seriously worried that the IRS may be coming to audit me.
See, I'm having a hard time figuring out how any of that stuff happening takes any longer or requires more paperwork than the exercise of the CLW Wand user declaring who he's healing and then rolling a d8 five times in succession, with pauses for math and ticking off charges in between.
To top that off, campaigns are now going to take ten years of my life! Man! I'm guessing you're taking your cue for that statement from the Iraq war, which is a real-life example of a campaign that has lasted 10 years in which there are no wands of Cure Light Wounds in the hands of the field medics. I'm not sure it's a great example, but I can only imagine that it's what you are referring to, since you've not given me any other information to work with. Maybe I'm supposed to just take your word for it because you've played this game, and I haven't. Oh, wait. Yes, I have. So it can't be that.
Finally,...
I am 32 years old myself. So you have a year up on me yay!
As far as paper work I was refering to your post about how there are many things that just do not seem realistic, I will not go back over your laundry list but anyone can scroll up. If you want to document every little thing that happens so that it seems realistic, in a pencil and paper game that will take more writting.
You mentioned that being at the top of your game at age 20 was unrealistic. I mentioned that if you did not like that, then for your character to age to lets say 50 in a game that meets on average once a week you would need to play a campaign about 10 years. Though if we want to further examine that statement realize that the average life span of a human in medevil times was probably around 30(give or take depending on how rich you were). So being a 20 year old bad ass is not too unrealistic, even in this very realistic game of slaying dragons.
Funny that you mentioned Field Medics, I am a Combat Medic 3rd ACR Ftrp OIF veteran 07-09. We might not have CLW, but we have stitches and staples or good ol' tourniquettes and in a pinch they work. Which is also why I think a heal skill should actually count for some immediate healing. In the fantasy world add some herbs with healing properties and this should be realistic no?
Before anything else, I want to thank Nimon and all our other veterans for their service to our beautiful nation. You've done more for us than I ever will.
I don't get why everyone hates the role of Cleric. I played a Cleric once. I played it for 23 levels and loved every minute of it. I was a decent combatant (3.5 days), magic item creator for the party, I threw out what damage spells I had to throw around, and patched up the party every now and then when necessary. Some people like being a bit more supportive. Don't people play bards?
We never had the issue of having loads of cure wands - even now, with no dedicated healer in the party.
We survive multiple combats through decent tactics and using what little healing we have to best effect. People who are hurt take a backseat while others step up to the plate. It's really a team effort when everyone's hurting and the wizard who has buffs steps into melee to hold out in order to save the near-dead fighter. Loads of fun and builds party teamwork too.
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Never used 'em, never cried.
Take yer month(s) long bed rest like a bearded male!
What's that?
You're dead?
Live with it!
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Funny that you mentioned Field Medics, I am a Combat Medic 3rd ACR Ftrp OIF veteran 07-09. We might not have CLW, but we have stitches and staples or good ol' tourniquettes and in a pinch they work. Which is also why I think a heal skill should actually count for some immediate healing. In the fantasy world add some herbs with healing properties and this should be realistic no?
Usually, I've found that people who turn the phrase "If you want XXX, join the military" have been in the military, so that doesn't come as a huge surprise, to be totally truthful with you.
I completely agree that the heal skill should be more effective in terms of the topic of this thread. Perhaps in a future game, the good folks at Paizo will see fit to make that happen. I certainly hope so, anyway. The skill can be quite useful in play as-is, but I think it needs some boosting.
[siderant]I honestly would prefer for there to be no wands of any divine magic in the game. It's just not thematic. The wizard utilizing a wand for focusing his outlet of arcane energy? Totally represented in fantasy literature. The Cleric waving a wand around? Not. Unless I misremember, there weren't divine wands in some of the earlier incarnations of the game - perhaps I am misremembering, I'm not sure. If this would come as a nerf to clerics, well, they can take it.[/siderant]
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Funny that you mentioned Field Medics, I am a Combat Medic 3rd ACR Ftrp OIF veteran 07-09. We might not have CLW, but we have stitches and staples or good ol' tourniquettes and in a pinch they work. Which is also why I think a heal skill should actually count for some immediate healing. In the fantasy world add some herbs with healing properties and this should be realistic no?Usually, I've found that people who turn the phrase "If you want XXX, join the military" have been in the military, so that doesn't come as a huge surprise, to be totally truthful with you.
I completely agree that the heal skill should be more effective in terms of the topic of this thread. Perhaps in a future game, the good folks at Paizo will see fit to make that happen. I certainly hope so, anyway. The skill can be quite useful in play as-is, but I think it needs some boosting.
[siderant]I honestly would prefer for there to be no wands of any divine magic in the game. It's just not thematic. The wizard utilizing a wand for focusing his outlet of arcane energy? Totally represented in fantasy literature. The Cleric waving a wand around? Not. Unless I misremember, there weren't divine wands in some of the earlier incarnations of the game - perhaps I am misremembering, I'm not sure. If this would come as a nerf to clerics, well, they can take it.[/siderant]
AD@D first Ed def has wands. That is were I come from actually, when you mentioned I am new to this forum. I am new to 3.5 in general I have been playing 1st ed so long that I decided it was time to upgrade and the game store manager directed me to this game.
My argument is not so much pro wands but pro out of initative healing in general. Though there are several accounts of items with healing in fantasy literature(and mythology in general which is the basis of modern fantasy literature), maybe not wands specificly, but staffs and what not sure.
I do use the military a lot in discussions, those who have been realize it is a micrcosom to the world as a whole. I am not saying that if you do not join you are scum or anything to that messure, and I am not a psycho that enjoys killing, which is why I am a medic.