Synthetisist summoner and improved natural attack


Rules Questions


The core of the issue is, can the summoner take feats based off of the stats of his fused Eildon?

I have a player who believes that since the summoner and the Eildon are fuzed he is able to take feats because the Eildon qualifies for them, for example, he has taken improved natural attack (Feat) and Improved Damage (evolution) in order to make his 4 claw attack into a d8.

Does anyone know a ruling one way or the other, and if so either the link or page number?


I do not think there is a specific RAW for you to follow here. There are 2 areas that are relevant though.

1. Fly skill requires daily access to some form of flight in order to take ranks in fly.link here

2. Ability score increases need to count as permanent in order for you to be able to use them as prerequisites for feats. Permanent means that you have had the ability increase on you atleast 24 hours. link here

On whether having access to claws is enough or whether you have to have claws atleast 24 hours before you can use them as a prerequisite for a feat is not yet specified.

Liberty's Edge

thepuregamer wrote:

I do not think there is a specific RAW for you to follow here. There are 2 areas that are relevant though.

1. Fly skill requires daily access to some form of flight in order to take ranks in fly.link here

2. Ability score increases need to count as permanent in order for you to be able to use them as prerequisites for feats. Permanent means that you have had the ability increase on you atleast 24 hours. link here

I also agree that there is no specific RAW for this.

However, I'd like to point out that point 2 only applies to ability bonuses, not base abilities. This actually (unlike any other effect in the game) outright replaces your abilities and is thus not actually an ability bonus. I'd probably let people take feats based on those stats, but have them keep in mind that they won't work when the eidolon is gone if they don't normally have those stats.

EDIT: In fact, the eidolon may even end up applying an effective penalty to a given stat if it has a lower stat than you (as is the case for a summoner in my current party that has 14 con, but who drops to 12 when in fused form).


StabbittyDoom wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:

I do not think there is a specific RAW for you to follow here. There are 2 areas that are relevant though.

1. Fly skill requires daily access to some form of flight in order to take ranks in fly.link here

2. Ability score increases need to count as permanent in order for you to be able to use them as prerequisites for feats. Permanent means that you have had the ability increase on you atleast 24 hours. link here

I also agree that there is no specific RAW for this.

However, I'd like to point out that point 2 only applies to ability bonuses, not base abilities. This actually (unlike any other effect in the game) outright replaces your abilities and is thus not actually an ability bonus. I'd probably let people take feats based on those stats, but have them keep in mind that they won't work when the eidolon is gone if they don't normally have those stats.

EDIT: In fact, the eidolon may even end up applying an effective penalty to a given stat if it has a lower stat than you (as is the case for a summoner in my current party that has 14 con, but who drops to 12 when in fused form).

Neither of these really answer the question. The way I see it is it is like a druid, a druid cannot (or at least to my understanding they cannot though I don't know where the rules are on it) take improved natural attack because they shift into the animal form, the same way the summoner fuses with the Eildon. Because it isn't a natural claw attack they shouldn't be able to take the feat.


Idward Evanhand wrote:

The core of the issue is, can the summoner take feats based off of the stats of his fused Eildon?

I have a player who believes that since the summoner and the Eildon are fuzed he is able to take feats because the Eildon qualifies for them, for example, he has taken improved natural attack (Feat) and Improved Damage (evolution) in order to make his 4 claw attack into a d8.

Does anyone know a ruling one way or the other, and if so either the link or page number?

Yes, it is legal to qualify for feats based on your fused statistics. I don't think it was in the official FAQ, but I'm pretty sure SKR mentioned this in a thread somewhere. Here's the link.


Idward Evanhand wrote:

Neither of these really answer the question. The way I see it is it is like a druid, a druid cannot (or at least to my understanding they cannot though I don't know where the rules are on it) take improved natural attack because they shift into the animal form, the same way the summoner fuses with the Eildon. Because it isn't a natural claw attack they shouldn't be able to take the feat.

I clearly answered your question. There is no specific raw answer to your question. House rule it as you will since the game currently does not answer it for you.

Liberty's Edge

@Idward, AFAIK Druids can in fact take feats based on non-ability-score requirements that they meet while in animal/other form, but can only use them when they meet the pre-requisites. The ability score requirements could only be met if they were in that form for >= 24 hours, which is certainly possible given the duration that wild shape lasts. However, again, they must still have that ability score at the time they use the feat.

EDIT: It should be noted that the 24-hour rule applies only to ability scores, and ONLY to ability score "bonuses." No other pre-requisite has this rule. This is simply there to prevent a super-cheap low-level resource like Bull's Strength from being used for access to feats.

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