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"There is no known way to kill the tarrasque."
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar? Obviously they did. Obviously it didn't work.
The text cannot fully encompass all possibilities, so of course enterprising players can figure out any number of ways that are not covered by the text.
Any solution that does not invoke the direct intervention of a few deities (at least Sarenrae) will have no hope of succeeding at permanently killing the creature should I GM a tarrasque encounter. Though PCs can succeed at making it return to hibernation.
"There is no known way to kill the tarrasque."
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar? Obviously they did. Obviously it didn't work.
The text cannot fully encompass all possibilities, so of course enterprising players can figure out any number of ways that are not covered by the text.
Any solution that does not invoke the direct intervention of a few deities (at least Sarenrae) will have no hope of succeeding at permanently killing the creature should I GM a tarrasque encounter. Though PCs can succeed at making it return to hibernation.
That's actually a really great house rule - but it's kind of fluff text. That said, Regeneration in the creature description specifically spells out that "the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered"... except, of course, that it apparently has been discovered in Golarion because the Tarrasque is dead. They even know where it is.
Also: NINJA'D by wraithstrike! Well done, sir, well done!
"There is no known way to kill the tarrasque."
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar? Obviously they did. Obviously it didn't work.
The text cannot fully encompass all possibilities, so of course enterprising players can figure out any number of ways that are not covered by the text.
Any solution that does not invoke the direct intervention of a few deities (at least Sarenrae) will have no hope of succeeding at permanently killing the creature should I GM a tarrasque encounter. Though PCs can succeed at making it return to hibernation.
Having 30+ Int doesn't mean you'll think to try simple things. 30+ Wis, maybe, but I've seen many a brilliant man laid low by a failure to apply Occam's Razor to their problems. The simple solutions are often the best, but then, simple as it is, given that most people use magic jar as a means of preventing their own death/possessing others, as opposed to a means of killing (as, in all but extreme corner cases, there are simpler, faster, and easier methods of killing, hence few would think to attempt to use it outside of its usual context.)
But anyway. If someone killed the Tarrasque in Golarion, I see no reason why the PCs shouldn't be able to achieve something that significant in a non-Golarion or post-Resurrected Tarrasque setting.
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"There is no known way to kill the tarrasque."
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar? Obviously they did. Obviously it didn't work.
The text cannot fully encompass all possibilities, so of course enterprising players can figure out any number of ways that are not covered by the text.
Any solution that does not invoke the direct intervention of a few deities (at least Sarenrae) will have no hope of succeeding at permanently killing the creature should I GM a tarrasque encounter. Though PCs can succeed at making it return to hibernation.
That's actually a really great house rule - but it's kind of fluff text. That said, Regeneration in the creature description specifically spells out that "the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered"... except, of course, that it apparently has been discovered in Golarion because the Tarrasque is dead. They even know where it is.
Also: NINJA'D by wraithstrike! Well done, sir, well done!
The Tarrasque in Golarion isn't dead. it's trapped. Different story. If found and released it still goes on a rampage destroying everything and everyone in its path. Big difference from being dead.
The Tarrasque in Golarion isn't dead. it's trapped. Different story. If found and released it still goes on a rampage destroying everything and everyone in its path. Big difference from being dead.
Actually, it's pretty strongly indicated that it is. "Resurrection" is difficult to perform in any useful way on a living creature. "Vanquished" and "laid low" indicate its death. The fact that the body was "hidden away" means it wasn't resisting when it was, in fact, hidden. The reason the body was hidden isn't spoken of, but primarily, knowing, as we do (and they did at the time) that depraved cultists would seek to raise it from the dead is a pretty good reason to do so.
Further, I've recently read
in Legacy of Fire where it's pretty strongly indicated to be dead.
In some ways, like Aroden, no one has seen the body, so you get crazies who say "it's not dead!", but really there's no reason to believe otherwise when Paizo's been pretty clear on it.
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The Tarrasque in Golarion isn't dead. it's trapped. Different story. If found and released it still goes on a rampage destroying everything and everyone in its path. Big difference from being dead.Actually, it's pretty strongly indicated that it is. "Resurrection" is difficult to perform in any useful way on a living creature. "Vanquished" and "laid low" indicate its death. The fact that the body was "hidden away" means it wasn't resisting when it was, in fact, hidden. The reason the body was hidden isn't spoken of, but primarily, knowing, as we do (and they did at the time) that depraved cultists would seek to raise it from the dead is a pretty good reason to do so.
Further, I've recently read
** spoiler omitted **In some ways, like Aroden, no one has seen the body, so you get crazies who say "it's not dead!", but really there's no reason to believe otherwise when Paizo's been pretty clear on it.
Outdated informations, from The Innersea World Guis (most recent Paizo document about the Tarrasque AFAIK):
-632 The Tarrasque, greatest of the Spawns of Rovagug, destroys Ninshambur and devastates Avistan until it is defeated and sealed away in a hidden cavern.
Nothing about killing it or laid it low.
The Tarrsque regeneration is special as it work even against a death effect, while normal regeneration would not work against that.
So Ashiel and I are both partially right. The Tarrasque can't be killed by hp damage, so in that situation it can't be animated.
An death attack could kill it but then its special regeneration would rise it from the dead in 3 rounds. In that situation it could potentially be animated as a undead.
I am not convinced that its special regeneration would be blocked by something as paltry as being animated as a mindless undead but that would be the relevant GM call.
A fun solution would be to have the body of the Tarrasque being animated as an undead and the it regenerating back a new body from some spilled blood.
Follow titanic clash between the undead Tarrasque body and the new regenerated Tarrasque in its new body.
"There is no known way to kill the tarrasque."
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar?
Should I judge by how a lot of other things do or don't happen in Golarion or how you assert they do?
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar? Obviously they did. Obviously it didn't work.
Regardless of one's intelligence not everyone can know everything. Maybe they didn't think of something so elegantly simple because they were wondering how to word their wish spells. "Obviously" is a far over used term.
-632 The Tarrasque, greatest of the Spawns of Rovagug, destroys Ninshambur and devastates Avistan until it is defeated and sealed away in a hidden cavern.
Nothing about killing it or laid it low.
Nothing about it not dieing either - not actually a contradiction with older stuff, but different wording. It's wording like that which still has people convinced Aroden isn't dead... when James' said several times in no uncertain terms that he is. That said, it's less solid, as this could be ret-conned.
A fun solution would be to have the body of the Tarrasque being animated as an undead and the it regenerating back a new body from some spilled blood.
Follow titanic clash between the undead Tarrasque body and the new regenerated Tarrasque in its new body.
That would be awesome. Who says there's only ever one? :D
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If the OP is correct, the Tarrasque is NOT immune to ability DRAIN. Send in some touch-attacking, strength-draining undead, let's say shadows (IIRC) and let them drain it dry. Assuming you don't get a shadow tarrasque, you either get a still living but harmless Tarrasque, or a common shadow.
That's the problem with all these mega-monsters. The stirges and other hungry touch-attacking monsters would have eaten them for breakfast so long ago.
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If the OP is correct, the Tarrasque is NOT immune to ability DRAIN. Send in some touch-attacking, strength-draining undead, let's say shadows (IIRC) and let them drain it dry. Assuming you don't get a shadow tarrasque, you either get a still living but harmless Tarrasque, or a common shadow.
That's the problem with all these mega-monsters. The stirges and other hungry touch-attacking monsters would have eaten them for breakfast so long ago.
I'm pretty sure in its immunities it also lists ability drain.
(Edit: I guess it says energy drain. Is that not the same thing?)
You think that none of the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion didn't figure out to try something simple as Magic Jar?
Yes.
You think that the greatest minds with 30+ Int on Golarion would have full knowledge of the thing's stat block? A single creature immediately threatening the world with apocalypse isn't very conductive to study and research.
The tarrasque is still not immune to Plane Shift.
Interesting fact: in core, only celestials get Plane Shift. No demons or devils get it.
I think that was done on purpose to keep the trope of them having to be summoned/called, and it is a good reason as to why they have not taken over.
I think the takeover reason was given in one of the splat books for 3.5. I couldn't tell you which one though.
If the OP is correct, the Tarrasque is NOT immune to ability DRAIN. Send in some touch-attacking, strength-draining undead, let's say shadows (IIRC) and let them drain it dry. Assuming you don't get a shadow tarrasque, you either get a still living but harmless Tarrasque, or a common shadow.
That's the problem with all these mega-monsters. The stirges and other hungry touch-attacking monsters would have eaten them for breakfast so long ago.
I'm pretty sure in its immunities it also lists ability drain.
(Edit: I guess it says energy drain. Is that not the same thing?)
No, it's not. Ability damage is where your ability scores are temporarily dropped to lower amounts by some negative effect, but get better over time. Ability drain is a (theoretically-but-not-really-with-Pathfinder's-restoration-effects) permanent lowering of ability scores by some negative effect. Energy drain is the institution of negative levels, whether permanent or temporary. Basically the Tarrasque can't be made "weaker" by negative levels... but it can be literally made weaker, i.e. it's strength could be lowered by various ways. Also, at 0 CON, you're dead. Completely. Regeneration doesn't help against ability drain, IIRC. So, actually, yeah, sicking stirges (or something similar) on it would be the best thing. Weird.
The tarrasque is still not immune to Plane Shift.
Interesting fact: in core, only celestials get Plane Shift. No demons or devils get it.
I REALLY like what I think you're insinuating there.
So, actually, yeah, sicking stirges (or something similar) on it would be the best thing. Weird.
Eh-heheheheheh. Oops. My bad. Stirges deal ability damage which the Tarrasque is immune to. NEVERMIND PEOPLE CARRY ON.
(Wraiths, on the other hand, could sit in his space for about ten minutes and take care of it.)
This thread is the obvious reason that they have not released the epic rules set yet. Paizo is still trying to come up with a good way to prevent people from killing the Tarrasque.
I REALLY like what I think you're insinuating there.
Wait, what's being insinuated here?
This thread is the obvious reason that they have not released the epic rules set yet. Paizo is still trying to come up with a good way to prevent people from killing the Tarrasque.
Um... why, precisely, is this a problem? Monster = uber killing machine. It's ridiculously powerful. This thread? It's a bunch of people being forced to think outside the box utilizing the tools they have at hand to do outrageous things - in this case kill the Tarrasque. It's what think-tanks are for!
Basically the Tarrasque can't be made "weaker" by negative levels... but it can be literally made weaker, i.e. it's strength could be lowered by various ways. Also, at 0 CON, you're dead. Completely. Regeneration doesn't help against ability drain, IIRC. So, actually, yeah, sicking stirges (or something similar) on it would be the best thing. Weird.
Not really, a vampire can be stopped simply by flowing water. All creatures have a weakness somewhere, and generally the harder it is to find, the simpler it actually is, human nature being what it is. Ability drain hurts; the hard part is finding enough creatures capable of it to take the tarrasque out before it can take them out.
Wait, what's being insinuated here?
I REALLY like what I think you're insinuating there.
Celestial being planeshifts the tarrasque to one of the lower planes. The Core fiends are incapable of planeshifting it back out. Being of pure destruction does what it does best, amongst allofthe fiends, preventing them from mounting offensives, as well as killing tons of evil outsiders on their home planes, thereby ending two threats at once.
This thread is the obvious reason that they have not released the epic rules set yet. Paizo is still trying to come up with a good way to prevent people from killing the Tarrasque.
And to this, I say humbug. They already made it vastly stronger than its old self, as well as any other bestiary entry. No, it's not supposed to be unkillable. It's not even God or Demigod status (and even those aren't unkillable, even in Golarion canon, see Tar-Baphon, Aroden, etc.)
Incidentally, unless I'm getting this wrong, slaying (not just defeating) Achaekek is as simple as an antimagic field and a couple of mounted chargers.
And Treerazer goes down to a couple Holy Cannons and called shots, with probable vital striking (vs. Wings, then legs, then wherever)
So anyway, yeah. Slaying super-high CR creatures is usually done with simple tactics. The problem is always the ability to set up the advantageous situation in the first place. But, seriously, these are the only encounters in the book where you have to specifically theorycraft ways for a 20th level party to succeed. And that's a big deal, because at high levels, the vast majority of level-appropriate encounters are going to just be straight up dealt with in 2-3 rounds if the party knows what it's doing, unless the GM gives the enemies the benefits of metagaming.
But what is your opinion on the beast before D&D got ahold of it?
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Celestial being planeshifts the tarrasque to one of the lower planes. The Core fiends are incapable of planeshifting it back out. Being of pure destruction does what it does best, amongst allofthe fiends, preventing them from mounting offensives, as well as killing tons of evil outsiders on their home planes, thereby ending two threats at once.
I'm not sure that giving the legions of the damned unlimited access to an unstoppable engine of destruction is the best example of long term planning in the universe... ;)
I don't know if you know this or not but Pathfinder is not only not the same game system as 2e but it is predicated on an entirely different fantasy world that Paizo made a distinct effort to make new and unique personalities and motivations for the creatures therein.
Are you going to start quoting 2E stuff about Goblins and Gnolls in arguments about Pathfinder next?
To people saying it can be killed by death effects and animated, or by means of ability draining it to 0 con - doesn't work unless you first get rid of regeneration. Regeneration specifically says that a creature with regeneration _cannot die_ as long as it's active.
The normal way to remove regeneration (polymorph) doesn't work either.
So, swap tags for your convenience. Please read all with a warm, wry, and friendly voice, not snarky or sarcastic, because I mean it as the former three, not the latter two.
To people saying it can be killed by death effects and animated, or by means of ability draining it to 0 con - doesn't work unless you first get rid of regeneration. Regeneration specifically says that a creature with regeneration _cannot die_ as long as it's active.
The normal way to remove regeneration (polymorph) doesn't work either.
Except, of course, that its regeneration already doesn't work like normal regeneration in several regards and clearly uses the words "dead" in it to refer to a state that the Tarrasque returns from... after three rounds. It has to be dead in order to return from the dead after three rounds.
Also, found here, if you're interested:
Constitution (Con)
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
Emphasis mine. Now let's compare from here...
Regeneration (Ex)
A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally.
The creature’s descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.
Hm, so at 0 CON, you die, however you can't die with regeneration active. BUT! The general description of regeneration specifies that all regeneration is suppressed by certain attack forms. So let's see what it says in Big T's entry here...
Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.
Wait. It starts by saying that "no form of attack can suppress"... okay, so it currently violates the base form of Regeneration by clarifying that it doesn't follow standard regeneration rules. However, fortunately for us, it continues and clarifies - "If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains." Curiously, though, it doesn't specify what happens if further damage is inflicted upon its remains. Currently, it doesn't clarify what, exactly, happens if damage [/i]is[/i] inflicted on its remains... just that it doesn't "rise from death 3 rounds later" if that occurs.
Further, if the Tarrasque's regeneration worked like regeneration, the clause "rise from death 3 rounds later" would be moot, as, in fact, it would regenerate from negative hit points enough to kill it to positive hit points in only one round. As noted here
Hit Points
When your hit point total reaches 0, you're disabled. When it reaches –1, you're dying. When it gets to a negative amount equal to your Constitution score, you're dead. See Injury and Death, for more information.
It's regeneration is 40, however it's constitution score is only 34. That means that even if it were taken into negative hit points equal to it's constitution score it would regenerate all those hit points plus six (6) within one (1) round - not three (3). That means at the end of one round it would regenerate enough hit points that it would rise from unconsciousness with six hit points - not from death with one.
As the Tarrasque is not immune to ability drain, we have a clear conflict in RAW, if, in fact, it cannot be dead, as it can have its constitution reduced to 0 (and thus be dead) by ability drain, even as it can't be dead from its regeneration. Ergo it is both dead and not dead at the same time. Except that, delightfully for us, it clarifies that the Tarrasque also does die... in three-round increments... only to rise from death. That means that, unless we seriously bend logic, it does, in fact, die - for three rounds. So all that stuff works.
And Pathfinder gave it more dignity than 3.X-stuff because it actually made him an important part of their setting - Golarion - as an spawn, instrument, and herald of a particular god (Rovagug), instead of possibly being a "derp" by a wizard somewhere.
BUT! For those who cite 2nd Edition, I raise you...
But what is your opinion on the beast before D&D got ahold of it?
This source predates yours.
Let's see, it's tamable, able to be befriended, redeemed, and able to be murdered by a mob of peasants.
Clearly, that's the way the beast was meant to be played! ;)
All that said, you can totally feel free to play it how you like in your campaign. Creating something that literally can't ever be killed or destroyed seems kind of pointless and hopeless, though. Kinda Lovcraftian, really... :)
The rules only prevent it from being killed by a death spell or hit point damage. Nothing stops it from being killed by OTHER means.
That the tarrasque is a celestial war engine, or that solars (et al.) were made to be immortal dogcatchers, or that the tarrasque is part of why demons/devils don't just overrun the Prime, etc. There's a lot of directions you can go with it. I kind of like it as Pelor the Burning Hate theory, myself.
I actually kinda dig that a lot.
So that gives Angels to intervene on the Tarrasque 's behalf, and all of a sudden GMs who are not too keen on this engine of destruction being MJ'd by players a way to get around it by having multiple CR 23 dudes just come in and back it up.
The rules only prevent it from being killed by a death spell or hit point damage. Nothing stops it from being killed by OTHER means.
While I actually agree with you in principle, there can be an argument made that it can't be killed based off of its regeneration.
The problem is the logical loop made from contradictory elements in the rules.
Sooooooooooo... logic loop and inherently contradictory rules. Stupid, yes, and using non-fallacious logic, it's obvious that a) the Tarrasque can be killed, and b) the way to do it is through non-expected ways (like those discussed here). Again, otherwise the universe would be pointless because the Tarrasque will end it all, eventually. Effectively, he's one of the Great Old Ones... which some GMs might like, actually (especially since it's not even sentient, similar to some of the Great Old Ones descriptions).
And Jeranimus Rex: sort of. They wouldn't kill good characters, nor would they just let the Tarrasque rampage willy-nilly... they are, after all, angels, and doing either of those would inherently go against their essences. But yes, there are ways that they can support the Tarrasque while trying to keep it controlled. My personal solution (if I were the angels) would be for them to create a demiplane and just planeshift it there, then bring it out when they need it.
sort of. They wouldn't kill good characters, nor would they just let the Tarrasque rampage willy-nilly... they are, after all, angels, and doing either of those would inherently go against their essences. But yes, there are ways that they can support the Tarrasque while trying to keep it controlled. My personal solution (if I were the angels) would be for them to create a demiplane and just planeshift it there, then bring it out when they need it.
Right, there are other ways for Angels to deal with a party of righteous crusaders trying to protect their town from French Mythology.
Solars have imprisonment at will and a whole slew of other neat tricks, and I'm sure Angels would intervene in a way that would make sense for the being to do.
I mean, if the Tarrasque was CON-drained, then it could be possible for a whole bunch of em to come in after the party successfully vanquished it and heal it of the drain.
-OR-
Have a whole bunch of opportunistic Evil Outsiders start invading and raising hell.(pun intended.) And then have the party go on a quest to undo the damage they caused.
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This is why BBEG's should be immune to possession and mind effecting effects. :)
My view is that RAW it's possible. However in my games I don't really want my players to be wandering around with a new shiny (literally) Tarrasque body. I feel that this would somewhat unbalance the game...
Personally I would allow the spell to go off but say that the influence of Rovagug fights the possession. I would then rule that the Tarrasque is effectively stunned for (say) 1d6 rounds before the invading soul is pushed out. That way the player gets reward for innovative thinking (which I am all for) without one shotting one of the biggest bads in the system (which I see as kind of lame.)
I would also make sure that I warned my players that whilst this may have an effect, it won't necessarily work completely. Arbitrarily saying no is bad but so is trivialising a creature that is supposed to be a threat for civilisations.
If the Tarrasque had no soul, wouldn't that just mean it gets no save vs. Magic Jar?
And really, I think I'd rather take those alternative ideas (Celestial war machine) and run with them. But then, how to explain the whole herald of Rovagug thing?
Has this Int 3 being of great power and destruction incarnate really been a double agent ALL ALONG?!
This is why BBEG's should be immune to possession and mind effecting effects. :)
My view is that RAW it's possible. However in my games I don't really want my players to be wandering around with a new shiny (literally) Tarrasque body. I feel that this would somewhat unbalance the game...
Personally I would allow the spell to go off but say that the influence of Rovagug fights the possession. I would then rule that the Tarrasque is effectively stunned for (say) 1d6 rounds before the invading soul is pushed out. That way the player gets reward for innovative thinking (which I am all for) without one shotting one of the biggest bads in the system (which I see as kind of lame.)
I would also make sure that I warned my players that whilst this may have an effect, it won't necessarily work completely. Arbitrarily saying no is bad but so is trivialising a creature that is supposed to be a threat for civilisations.
Honestly, I completely agree with this. :D
sort of. They wouldn't kill good characters, nor would they just let the Tarrasque rampage willy-nilly... they are, after all, angels, and doing either of those would inherently go against their essences. But yes, there are ways that they can support the Tarrasque while trying to keep it controlled. My personal solution (if I were the angels) would be for them to create a demiplane and just planeshift it there, then bring it out when they need it.Right, there are other ways for Angels to deal with a party of righteous crusaders trying to protect their town from French Mythology.
Solars have imprisonment at will and a whole slew of other neat tricks, and I'm sure Angels would intervene in a way that would make sense for the being to do.
I mean, if the Tarrasque was CON-drained, then it could be possible for a whole bunch of em to come in after the party successfully vanquished it and heal it of the drain.
-OR-
Have a whole bunch of opportunistic Evil Outsiders start invading and raising hell.(pun intended.) And then have the party go on a quest to undo the damage they caused.
True. But they'd have to be careful about how they go about it. I don't recall right now how Magic Jar interacts with other spells, but if a powerful, but good, wizard Jar'd the beast, and was outside of the radius, they'd have to get him to go back within the radius in order to dismiss the effect... otherwise they kill him. That said, they could just True Resurrection on everyone... but that's getting into cheap cinema and deus-ex-machina territory, in my opinion. Nonetheless, valid by way of rules.
EDIT:
...trivialising a creature that is supposed to be a threat for civilisations.
I see what you mean, but really, by the level they're taking on the Tarrasque, it's not so much "trivializing" to me - they're really just that powerful. Nonetheless, I can see your point. I just know that, as a player, when I've successfully taken down a BBEG with one shot due to very clever uses, I'm talking about it for days... 'cause dudes, that was totally fun.
If it has no soul and still moves - well, sure, it might mean it gets no save against Magic jar. It also means any soul shoving inside it would be entirely helpless to affect its actions. The soul would become a spectator only, seeing and tasting what the monster does and being unable to intervene. How's that for a nightmare?
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I see what you mean, but really, by the level they're taking on the Tarrasque, it's not so much "trivializing" to me - they're really just that powerful. Nonetheless, I can see your point. I just know that, as a player, when I've successfully taken down a BBEG with one shot due to very clever uses, I'm talking about it for days... 'cause dudes, that was totally fun.
Then that's cool. Whatever works for you and your group is great. If everybody has fun then it's ok with me.
Personally I prefer fights which take a long time and which the players win by the skin of their teeth.
It's all personal preference at the end of the day.
True. But they'd have to be careful about how they go about it. I don't recall right now how Magic Jar interacts with other spells, but if a powerful, but good, wizard Jar'd the beast, and was outside of the radius, they'd have to get him to go back within the radius in order to dismiss the effect... otherwise they kill him. That said, they could just True Resurrection on everyone... but that's getting into cheap cinema and deus-ex-machina territory, in my opinion. Nonetheless, valid by way of rules.
Wouldn't be hard for them to ask for the Jar, I'm sure most parties would not want to see their friend get killed, and would most likely comply, especially since Celestials would have no reason to double cross or deceive them.
Then they play a waiting game until the spell duration runs out.
Conversely, sins of omission would probably not be a concern. They Plane-shifted the Tarrasque out to keep it safe from tampering, it just so happened that the Good Wizard died as a result. Action has consequences, and they shouldn't be held responsible for accidently hurting someone who put them self in Godzilla's Body.
True Ressurection wouldn't really be much of a cheesy Deus-Ex since they'd probably only ressurect the Wizard, who has a real chance of dieing.
Wishing or Miricaling for the Wizard's soul to be back in his body after the plane-shift might also be reasonable.
Especially because the Celestial's first line of Defense is now gone, and Champions must now be marshaled to defend from Fiendish Invasion.
One the Issue of the Spawn of Ravagug: Saraenrae is all about Redemption.......