Detect Magic: My GM Hates It


Advice

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Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious. He has entirely made the spell useless for us.

Every time any of our party members attempts to use the spell, he claims that our party's magic users are too magical and they are overpowering any other magic aura that might be in the area. Magic sword? Who knows? The eidolon is far too magical to detect anything else. If its not the eidolon, its the wizard. If its not the wizard, its our own magic weapons. If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

Now I understand that detect magic can sometimes ruin a GM's fun. I've run my fair share of games that have had certain plot points ruined with the spell, but I've always accepted it and moved on. I want to talk to my GM and maybe work around the way he has detect magic work. What are ways that you have dealt with the spell? I'd be a little less annoyed if everything had nondetection on it, as that would (at least somewhat) make sense.

Or perhaps should I just shut up and let my GM run it his own way and learn to prepare a different cantrip every day?

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.


Last I checked, wasn't Detect Magic fired in a cone? Couldn't you aim it, at not a player or the eidolon?


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Mogart wrote:
Last I checked, wasn't Detect Magic fired in a cone? Couldn't you aim it, at not a player or the eidolon?

According to the GM, our auras are so large that they manage to find their way into the cone anyway. Like I said, he really dislikes this spell.


If you cant use detect magic on a magic sword you cant actually identify it's properties...that seems a basic problem to me. I think you need to talk to your dm about your concerns. Obviously there is nothing in the rules that say one magic auro overpowers another with detect magic. In fact in all the cases you mentione the other thing can simple NOT BE IN THE RANGE OF THE SPELL. It is a cone. The spell only detects whats in the spell. If the eidolon steps behind the caster, his auro should have nothing to do with the detect spell.

That said, clearly your dm is among those unhappy with the side effects of making detect magic all the time cantrip. I think have a conversation with him and find out what exactly he doesnt like. It might be as simple as putting a special limitation on it, or a social contract in the group to ensure you dont ALWAYS have detect up like its a doppler radar.


Incanús Kindler wrote:

Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious. He has entirely made the spell useless for us.

Every time any of our party members attempts to use the spell, he claims that our party's magic users are too magical and they are overpowering any other magic aura that might be in the area. Magic sword? Who knows? The eidolon is far too magical to detect anything else. If its not the eidolon, its the wizard. If its not the wizard, its our own magic weapons. If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

Now I understand that detect magic can sometimes ruin a GM's fun. I've run my fair share of games that have had certain plot points ruined with the spell, but I've always accepted it and moved on. I want to talk to my GM and maybe work around the way he has detect magic work. What are ways that you have dealt with the spell? I'd be a little less annoyed if everything had nondetection on it, as that would (at least somewhat) make sense.

Or perhaps should I just shut up and let my GM run it his own way and learn to prepare a different cantrip every day?

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.

Your GM is choosing to ignore a spell because he doesn't like it. Flat out, in RAW, he is wrong. However, he is the GM and has the ability to houserule. This should be something that is discussed beforehand and require consensus.

My personal recommendation? Start sundering everything suspicious.


Incanús Kindler wrote:

Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious.

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.

Talk with your GM about this (and likely other things).

Most likely what you have found is a nice warning sign that you are better off with another GM.

He's having trouble with the rules, doesn't like some, and is making things up that doesn't work well for the party. Without dialog this is only going to get worse.

So if there can be dialog see if its worthwhile, otherwise leave before it gets to that worse bit,

James

Liberty's Edge

He's actually correct, but only for the first round of concentration on a given area. On subsequent rounds you are explicitly capable of separating the signal from the noise and honing in on where each magical signal is coming from, but only for that area.

Also, there are several spells that block it outright, like Nondetection or the Magical Aura spell (which is only 2nd level, if I remember correctly). Both of these last 24 hours. The former masks all auras on your person, and the latter masks the aura of a given effect (such as the aura your magic sword gives off).


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Just remind him that there are many, many ways to stop Detect Magic. Thin lead sheet inside a treasure chest? Yep, not detected.

Bring it up with him, and see what he thinks. Ask him why he dislikes it so much. It's a cantrip for a reason, and it's the primary method of identifying items. It being used almost all the time is basically built into the system as an assumption.

Remember, it's a cone. You can't detect yourself with it, since it starts *ahead* of you. It starts in the square in front of where you are facing. Not in yours. Eidolons are outsiders, and Detect Magic SPECIFICALLY says Outsiders aren't magical unless you use a spell to summon them. In most cases where you'll be detecting magic, the Eidolon won't be summoned through a spell.

If you want to drive the point home, have the party wizard cast Magic Aura to make everything on his person to appear non-magical. Then have him cast it. Nothing on him will appear magical.

I have strong feelings about Detect Magic.

Dark Archive

I house-ruled it into not detecting illusions and abjurations; that makes it useful for fusing magic items, but not illusions, invisible people, and magic traps.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

He's actually correct, but only for the first round of concentration on a given area. On subsequent rounds you are explicitly capable of separating the signal from the noise and honing in on where each magical signal is coming from, but only for that area.

Also, there are several spells that block it outright, like Nondetection or the Magical Aura spell (which is only 2nd level, if I remember correctly). Both of these last 24 hours. The former masks all auras on your person, and the latter masks the aura of a given effect (such as the aura your magic sword gives off).

Magic Aura is actually a level 1 spell that lasts 1 day per caster level.


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Incanús Kindler wrote:
Mogart wrote:
Last I checked, wasn't Detect Magic fired in a cone? Couldn't you aim it, at not a player or the eidolon?
According to the GM, our auras are so large that they manage to find their way into the cone anyway. Like I said, he really dislikes this spell.

Okie dokie, start casting Explosive Runes on scrolls. Attach and fire each scroll to an arrow in various places of an enemy stronghold. If the enemy has any magic even remotely near them they will view the scrolls as simple messages and not magical explosives. Because by your DM's own admission the aura of their own magical weapons will overpower anything that they find like a little piece of paper with deadly runes on it.


Thalin wrote:
I house-ruled it into not detecting illusions and abjurations; that makes it useful for fusing magic items, but not illusions, invisible people, and magic traps.

Interesting. Is there any fluff for that, or is it just arbitrarily dropping the hammer on something you don't like?


Thanks for the responses so far. I suppose before I start to cast magic aura on myself every day, I will sit down and tell my GM that he's kind of ruining our fun. I'm sure that he knows how the spell actually works, since we used to be able to use it just fine. It wasn't until it seemed to ruin some of his plans that the spell suddenly changed.

If he tells us that we can't compromise, which seems like it could be a possibility, then I'll make sure to take magic aura. If he attempts to tell me that the magic of magic aura is too strong for detect magic, then it may be time to find a new game master.


While I understand your DM's frustration, I can't support his reaction.

He needs to also ban using Perception to search.

The game has tools that players can use to find answers. Banning those tools instead of finding ways to work with then is just lazy. Searching and detecting take time. If the PCs do it all the time, okay, react and prod. Have a monster come and eat them because they were taking too long. But if the PCs only use these tools when they'd legitimately be probing a situation/place and you break the tools, you're just... mean.


Incanús Kindler wrote:

Thanks for the responses so far. I suppose before I start to cast magic aura on myself every day, I will sit down and tell my GM that he's kind of ruining our fun. I'm sure that he knows how the spell actually works, since we used to be able to use it just fine. It wasn't until it seemed to ruin some of his plans that the spell suddenly changed.

If he tells us that we can't compromise, which seems like it could be a possibility, then I'll make sure to take magic aura. If he attempts to tell me that the magic of magic aura is too strong for detect magic, then it may be time to find a new game master.

Magic Aura doesn't give an aura. It modifies one to appear as non-magical if you want.

And it lasts for a Day per Level. So at 7th level, it'll last for a week.

What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?


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Incanús Kindler wrote:

Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious. He has entirely made the spell useless for us.

Every time any of our party members attempts to use the spell, he claims that our party's magic users are too magical and they are overpowering any other magic aura that might be in the area. Magic sword? Who knows? The eidolon is far too magical to detect anything else. If its not the eidolon, its the wizard. If its not the wizard, its our own magic weapons. If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

Now I understand that detect magic can sometimes ruin a GM's fun. I've run my fair share of games that have had certain plot points ruined with the spell, but I've always accepted it and moved on. I want to talk to my GM and maybe work around the way he has detect magic work. What are ways that you have dealt with the spell? I'd be a little less annoyed if everything had nondetection on it, as that would (at least somewhat) make sense.

Or perhaps should I just shut up and let my GM run it his own way and learn to prepare a different cantrip every day?

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.

First, so we're all on the same page, here's Detect Magic. I've put most of it in a spoiler below, but there's a couple of useful charts that I just couldn't get to play nicely with the board's formatting.

Detect Magic:

School divination; Level bard 0, cleric 0, druid 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Component: V, S

Range 60 ft.

Area cone-shaped emanation

Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.

2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).

Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.

Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:

Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Detect magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

I'll not mention the cone or range arguments, since those have already been discussed.

First, have your GM look at the Duration of the spell... up to 1 minute/level, but it requires concentration.

Definition: Concentration wrote:


The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

In order to detect magic on something, you have to cast the spell, and then focus on using the spell, to the point where it counts as a standard action when in combat. This concentration can last up to 3 rounds (18 seconds) in order to get really specific information.

Wizard: Round 1 wrote:
Hey, there's magic stuff over there!
Wizard: Round 2 wrote:
Hey, there's lots of magic stuff over there!
Wizard: Round 3 wrote:
Oh Crap! There's <insert horrible spells/effects> coming right at us!

That duration usually gets glossed over in games, where the wizard just asks "Is it magic?" I'm guilty of it myself, in games where I'm playing the magic-detector.

So, in an encounter, unless it was 1 minute/level since your last casting of Detect Magic, you'll have to cast it again. This has both verbal and Somatic components, which will cause all kinds of questions to be raised...

Suspicious Fighter wrote:
Why is your wizard casting a spell?
Superstitious Barbarian wrote:
MAGIC? THOG SMASH!!!!

A couple of (fairly realistic) encounters like this would quickly control the use of Detect Magic.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for wanting to be able to use the spell, or that your GM should be nerfing the spell to the point where no spellcaster would actually be able to USE the spell...

I guess what I'm saying is, sit down with your GM, go over the actual spell, and see if you can reach an agreement as to what is reasonable usage of the spell, understanding that there can/will be social repercussions for casting spells willy-nilly, and agreement on how things should actually work.

My guess is that your GM is mistaking Detect Magic for Arcane Sight, a 3rd level spell.


Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.


Question:
How does your group identifies magic items found if he doens't allow you to use detect magic?

Can you give us a few examples of how detect magic has ruined his game?


BigJohn42 wrote:
Lots of very good information.

Thank you! I believe everything you've written here will be very helpful when I talk to my GM.


Incanús Kindler wrote:

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

Is your GM new to that side of the screen? If so, then perhaps he needs to gently have some of the ways around the spell brought to his attention. There have already been a number of useful suggestions regarding how to trick Detect Magic.

Grand Lodge

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Detect Magic, as a 0-level spell has been the bane of GMs everywhere.

However, knowing its uses and limitations can allow a GM to still do most things they want to do.

Hiding magic items or traps have long been rendered useless by Detect Magic. A quick cast and "Oh there they are!" Well that is not quite the case. While the range is 60 feet, which is enough to cover most rooms in dungeons, it is a cone. To properly find an item a caster will want to wait three rounds. This applies for each time the caster changes direction, not from the casting of the spell. To cover an entire room, turning in a full circle, will require about 12 rounds. In a dungeon that can be a long time.

Additionally, the effect of the spell is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. A secret compartment in the wall can easily have a small box lined in lead or made of 1 inch metal that blocks the aura. In a dungeon it would be easy to make a niche concealed behind 1 foot of stone. Or bury it in the ground 3 feet deep also hides the aura.

If used against invisible opponents it is remarkably easy to fool. Assuming that I have a Rogue, as an example, that is invisible and a Wizard is searching for him, the Rogue has the advantage. The first round the Wizard casts the spell, and happens to be looking in the correct arc where the Rogue is. The only information the Wizard learns is that somewhere in the cone there is an aura. The Rogue could make a Sense Motive check or Knowledge (arcana) to figure out what the Wizard is doing and move. Then the second round comes about and the Wizard suddenly finds there is no aura any more.

So the Wizard turns to a new area. He finds the Rogue's aura again. But the Rogue still has the advantage. The level of detail revealed does not depend upon how long the spell has been up, but on how long the caster is studying that area.

PRD wrote:
The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

So every single time the caster changes facing, the spell "resets" to the first round. This gives the Rogue 2 rounds to leave the area before his location can be determined. The Rogue always has the advantage and the caster is left with a sinking feeling that at any moment there will be a knife in his back and there's not much he can do about it.

So when Detect Magic is employed against an invisible opponent, it really doesn't tell you anything you don't already know.


Incanús Kindler wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

This is only going to get worse. Get a new DM, ASAP.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times - overcoming the challenge is overcoming the challenge.

The DM in a Pathfinder game I joined tells of another DM who made it so Summoned Creatures (summoned, not gated in through Planar ally or something) started refusing to do things that would get it killed - most specifically, set off traps. And our DM was thinking he would use that if it ever came to it. W. T. F. The monster will fight to its "death" but won't enter a trapped area because it will "die?" Indication number one of a bad DM: They make arbitrary and oddly specific rulings to nerf something they don't like.


Incanús Kindler wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

In the first case the DM could have hide it if he wanted but he didn't.

In the second he is just plain wrong, if he wanted you to use perception only then he should have hidden/altered the aura of the magic weapon.


leo1925 wrote:

Question:

How does your group identifies magic items found if he doens't allow you to use detect magic?

Can you give us a few examples of how detect magic has ruined his game?

A couple examples of ruining his game I posted above. As far as identifying magic items, if we roll pretty good on our appraise checks, our GM says "Whatd'ya know? You just found a +2 Short Sword!"

That specific item I identified on a 13.


Incanús Kindler wrote:
If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

That's some catch, that Catch-22.

Scarab Sages

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I put the kibosh on a lot of divination magic in our Kingmaker campaign, and among them was Detect Magic. Divination really destroys a lot of plots, conspiracies, etc. Most of the nobility in my game can afford it and rather than have everyone wearing Non-detection jewelry, I took the lower magic approach and nerfed some of the spells.

zone of truth, detect thoughts, etc- there is NO mind-reading, detect lies type magic in this game, period. Even Inquisitor's lost their abilities related to this, though I gave them a hefty bonus to sense motive and a few bonus feats in exchange.

Detect poison - requires a 50gp material component, so it cannot be casually cast on a regular basis.

Detect Magic - operates off of scent, so you can tell that there is magic or not in an area, but you cannot specifically document each magical item someone is carrying. You look rather suspicious and obvious trying to use it discreetly around other NPCs. I have arcane magic spell like burning metal and divine magic smell like burning stone.
In the wilderness or in treasure hordes, it works normally, because you can sniff all you want without anyone caring. There is a material component, a special ruby lens(es) that cost 500gp that can be crafted to allow the spell to work normally. Basically this means its still fully usable, it just requires a few levels before the material component can be afforded.

Detect good/evil - only works on supernatural beings, clerics, paladins, inquisitors of deities that have a stronger connection to the alignment. Does not work on normal people unless they are very very evil. Then again most evil people in the game are rather obvious, because they are nobles and don't really have to disguise their tendencies, as their money and power protect them.

I announced all of these changes before character generation, so there were no ugly suprises, and so far there haven't been a lot of complaints. All of these changes are to allow for complex political intrigue and plots that otherwise would get undone with the casting of a single spell. They can still be discovered, it just requires roleplaying, paying attention to clues, and use of perception, probing questions, and spycraft. Ours is a rather Game of Thrones type game, and trying to figure out what different groups are up to is half the challenge.

Scarab Sages

Incanús Kindler wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

This sounds like an example of clever players solving a problem faster than the GM anticipated. Is your GM new to running games? I know when I first began GMing I was surprised by clever spells or tricks the players came up with. Now I'm used to having my best laid plans dashed, so it's not much of a surprise. :) Personally, I think the GM should reward clever play, and try to be happy for the players when they come up with a run-around. However, I know that can throw off your game as a GM if you didn't have a backup plan.

If the GM's frustrated by the use of detect magic, he will be even more frustrated by higher level divination spells. I hope your chat with him will allow him to understand your concerns, because I'm afraid the higher your characters progress the more he will see his plans foiled by divination magic.

He would be well-served to read through the divination spells, including the ways they are foiled, and to consider them when planning his adventures. Divination can be a very powerful tool, especially for high-level wizards, and if his adventure plots are being ruined by detect magic, he'll be especially frustrated with "scry and die" abilities at higher levels.


Incanús Kindler wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

Definately talk to him, but this sounds to me like a classic case of power trip dm. If he cant account for a cantrip (however useful it may be) whats he going to do when the party has access for 4th, 5th or 6th level spells? Ban half the spell book? Um, Black tentacles doesnt work because they dont have room to spread out 'but its a 10ftx10ft room' yea but they need space around that to swing around, and since there isnt any the spell, um, fails.

Grand Lodge

Incanús Kindler wrote:

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

In the first the supposed unarmed farmer should have cast Magic Aura before the encounter at some point if his goal was to remain hidden. This is not a problem of the spell messing up the plot hook, but rather the GM not thinking ahead. However, in this circumstance the GM could have just said "you don't detect anything" after realizing he had not personally foreseen the PCs doing that, but realizing the villain likely would have. Problem solved.

The second. No plot hook should ever depend upon the PCs doing ONE SPECIFIC thing to advance the story. In this case, discovering the proper weapon should have been enough, whether through Perception or Detect Magic. If the engraved symbol is what was REALLY the important clue then once the weapon was properly discovered the plot should still be waiting to advance and clues planted about the symbol. Additionally, there could have been a clue dropped that "only the symbol of the sword in the mountain will gain you entry" and have a character make an Intelligence check to realize he had noticed that symbol once, and maybe another check to remember it was on the weapon. The plot has now gone from a one skill check success or fail encounter (which kills plot advancement) to several checks and become a fuller, more enjoyable encounter.


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Your DM needs to be soundly beaten with a traffic cone. Preferably while on the construction site the cone came from.

Scarab Sages

Krome wrote:
Incanús Kindler wrote:

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

In the first the supposed unarmed farmer should have cast Magic Aura before the encounter at some point if his goal was to remain hidden. This is not a problem of the spell messing up the plot hook, but rather the GM not thinking ahead. However, in this circumstance the GM could have just said "you don't detect anything" after realizing he had not personally foreseen the PCs doing that, but realizing the villain likely would have. Problem solved.

The second. No plot hook should ever depend upon the PCs doing ONE SPECIFIC thing to advance the story. In this case, discovering the proper weapon should have been enough, whether through Perception or Detect Magic. If the engraved symbol is what was REALLY the important clue then once the weapon was properly discovered the plot should still be waiting to advance and clues planted about the symbol. Additionally, there could have been a clue dropped that "only the symbol of the sword in the mountain will gain you entry" and have a character make an Intelligence check to realize he had noticed that symbol once, and maybe another check to remember it was on the weapon. The plot has now gone from a one skill check success or fail encounter (which kills plot advancement) to several checks and become a fuller, more enjoyable encounter.

The players should be commended for figuring out the trap and avoiding it.

+1 to using only a solo plot hook device. I try to use the rule of three when using a plot hook, and even then have had entire major story lines missed by the party due to unexpected actions that destroyed or ruined all three clues.


Incanús Kindler wrote:

Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious. He has entirely made the spell useless for us.

Every time any of our party members attempts to use the spell, he claims that our party's magic users are too magical and they are overpowering any other magic aura that might be in the area. Magic sword? Who knows? The eidolon is far too magical to detect anything else. If its not the eidolon, its the wizard. If its not the wizard, its our own magic weapons. If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

Now I understand that detect magic can sometimes ruin a GM's fun. I've run my fair share of games that have had certain plot points ruined with the spell, but I've always accepted it and moved on. I want to talk to my GM and maybe work around the way he has detect magic work. What are ways that you have dealt with the spell? I'd be a little less annoyed if everything had nondetection on it, as that would (at least somewhat) make sense.

Or perhaps should I just shut up and let my GM run it his own way and learn to prepare a different cantrip every day?

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.

He needs to learn the rules and stop freakin' crying. It takes 3 rounds, and it does not tell you what the spell is, only the aura. It makes perfect sense to use it to find magical things since that is what it was made for. Instead of being silly about it he should bump it to a first level spell if spamming it is the issue. He could also just ban the spell. Making up nonsense is not the answer though.

I don't have any issues with the spell. If he a cantrip is ruining his entire game he might need to change his approach.


redcelt32 wrote:

I put the kibosh on a lot of divination magic in our Kingmaker campaign, and among them was Detect Magic. Divination really destroys a lot of plots, conspiracies, etc. Most of the nobility in my game can afford it and rather than have everyone wearing Non-detection jewelry, I took the lower magic approach and nerfed some of the spells.

zone of truth, detect thoughts, etc- there is NO mind-reading, detect lies type magic in this game, period. Even Inquisitor's lost their abilities related to this, though I gave them a hefty bonus to sense motive and a few bonus feats in exchange.

Detect poison - requires a 50gp material component, so it cannot be casually cast on a regular basis.

Detect Magic - operates off of scent, so you can tell that there is magic or not in an area, but you cannot specifically document each magical item someone is carrying. You look rather suspicious and obvious trying to use it discreetly around other NPCs. I have arcane magic spell like burning metal and divine magic smell like burning stone.
In the wilderness or in treasure hordes, it works normally, because you can sniff all you want without anyone caring. There is a material component, a special ruby lens(es) that cost 500gp that can be crafted to allow the spell to work normally. Basically this means its still fully usable, it just requires a few levels before the material component can be afforded.

Detect good/evil - only works on supernatural beings, clerics, paladins, inquisitors of deities that have a stronger connection to the alignment. Does not work on normal people unless they are very very evil. Then again most evil people in the game are rather obvious, because they are nobles and don't really have to disguise their tendencies, as their money and power protect them.

I announced all of these changes before character generation, so there were no ugly suprises, and so far there haven't been a lot of complaints. All of these changes are to allow for complex political intrigue and plots that otherwise...

That really doesn't sound fun to me. I am not usually a clever person. Divination magic helps me roleplay as one though. Those houserules really break the disconnect between player skill and character skill, IMO. Or rather, repair the disconnect, I guess.

Grand Lodge

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I would seriously avoid making this a confrontation with the GM like some have encouraged and there is no reason to seek out a new GM. Doesn't sound like GM on a power kick either.

What happened is he created a couple of encounters that was foiled through Detect Magic. However, in both instances neither encounter SHOULD have been ruined with Detect Magic. Have him read this topic, and have him ignore the inappropriate responses that do nothing to fix the situation. Or better, just copy and paste useful comments in an email and send that to him so he does not become overly defensive (which is human nature and is what would happen when any one were to read this topic).

The key thing the GM needs to know is the limitations of Detect Magic and other similar magics. Then he can be prepared and easily deal with the problem. The group is back to being happy (though they might find that their all powerful Detect Magic is not as powerful as they thought before), and the GM is happy because now he can better design encounters to challenge the party.

Make this a Win-Win for the entire group and not a Win for the party- Loose for the GM, because trust me the party always looses in those circumstances.


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We need a new thread: "Your DM might be a facist if..."

I'm afraid I was a DM like that when I first started playing. If a spell or ability ruined what I had planned, I made up a reason why the spell didn't work. I thought I was been innovative and original, and forcing my players to think outside the box. In fact I was lazy and didn't keep track of what my players were capable of when I prepped an adventure.

Unfortunately, it's in the rules that the DM ruling is the final word. It's the rule even if it's his house rule. Hopefully your DM makes up for his arbitrary nerf of a workhorse cantrip for wizards by making the game fun in other ways. If he wants your characters to play in a world where they don't know what a magic item is except by trial and error or luck, that's the DM's prerogative. Whether you wish to play with said DM after you've made your case is yours.

Looking back, I'm not sure why my 1e group put up with me for 2 years (probably no one else wanted to DM). Hopefully they had fun anyway.

If it helps, you might point out the following to your DM from the PRD:

"Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt."

Scarab Sages

Incanús Kindler wrote:

Its become clear to me that my GM hates it when our party uses detect magic on everything suspicious. He has entirely made the spell useless for us.

Every time any of our party members attempts to use the spell, he claims that our party's magic users are too magical and they are overpowering any other magic aura that might be in the area. Magic sword? Who knows? The eidolon is far too magical to detect anything else. If its not the eidolon, its the wizard. If its not the wizard, its our own magic weapons. If I were to make the party move as far away as possible before I cast it, then its my own magical abilities that are throwing me off. I'm too magical to detect magic.

Or perhaps should I just shut up and let my GM run it his own way and learn to prepare a different cantrip every day?

Thanks in advance. I always love to hear what other people have to say.

This is true in the first round of the spell, when it just detects whether magic is present in the area, which obviously it will if you are carrying magic items and your cone includes anyone in your party. But eventually it does narrow it down and you figure out exactly what is magical.

That being said, I do not allow it to detect illusion spells unless they the detect magic caster makes a successful caster level check vs the illusion, since the very nature of illusions is to deceive. My own house rule to allow PC illusionists some degree of usefulness in the game.


A fair bit of thought needs to be invested by any GM regarding divination & information magics, especially at higher levels but honestly it starts a lot lower level than most people think. If the spells exist, people (NPCs, not just your players) are going to use them, a LOT. Think of our own world. Back in the day, before any voyage, war, or significant undertaking, people sought divinations---and theirs didn't even work half as well as the spells D&D characters have access to. Often they even sought 2nd opinions and used what amounted to voting algorithms with multiple forms of divination and different diviners.

So the best thing to do is to assume that people are going to have studied the capabilities both offensive and defensive for divination and taken actions accordingly. Divination is like the Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) in our world. It has its place, and big players can utterly smash people in it that aren't in their league, but it is generally of limited usefulness between relatively equal opponents compared to human intelligence (HUMINT).

Players should encounter defenses against divinations generally significantly before they have access to said spells. This is the proverbial display of the shotgun at least an act before it gets used in fiction, and it is both realistic within the scope of an organic game world and it avoids the perception that you're reactively nerfing their new toys. Unless your PCs are the first to develop a capability (by advancing level or researching a brand new spell), they should rarely been seen to be the first to actually do something with it.


I think a lot of his problem is that he isn't new to GMing, just new to roleplaying. Before this, his most advanced plot was "The dragon kidnapped the princess! Get 'er back!" Since all of my friends have moved to Pathfinder, he decided he wanted to try his hand at a real campaign.

Safe to say, when this is all said and done, he might just go back to dungeon crawls.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Incanús Kindler wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What kind of things has it ruined? Why is he making plothooks in a world of magic that depend on people not knowing something is magical?

Detect magic accidentally revealed a villain that should not have been revealed. The party got very suspicious when the supposedly unarmed farmer seemed to be in possession of some sort of magic item. Why the villain didn't attempt to hide it we will never know.

We also used it to determine the difference of a cheap knock-off weapon from the real one. Supposedly we were supposed to use perception, and realize it had a certain symbol engraved on it. But I don't think that the advancement of the plot should be determined by a die roll.

Definately talk to him, but this sounds to me like a classic case of power trip dm. If he cant account for a cantrip (however useful it may be) whats he going to do when the party has access for 4th, 5th or 6th level spells? Ban half the spell book? Um, Black tentacles doesnt work because they dont have room to spread out 'but its a 10ftx10ft room' yea but they need space around that to swing around, and since there isnt any the spell, um, fails.

Don't forget that haste doesn't work because you are too fast for your mind to compensate, so you can't do anything.

Also fly doesn't work either, no your character doesn't know how to fly, no i don't care how much ranks you have in the fly skill, your character doesn't know how to fly.

Yes the DM should be better prepared because if he can't handle a single cantrip then the things are only going to get worse for him.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:

That really doesn't sound fun to me. I am not usually a clever person. Divination magic helps me roleplay as one though. Those houserules really break the disconnect between player skill and character skill, IMO. Or rather, repair the disconnect, I guess.

Agreed. Its not our usual rules, just for this particular game. The players seem to enjoy the intrigue and cat and mouse type aspect of the game. And I wouldn't use it with every group, it just works in our current group and game well. The same thing works in their favor as well, with enemy factions who would definitely be using divination magics on the party.

Like I said, the alternative is that anyone who is going to bother playing politics or getting involved in plots of treason and such, would just equip themselves with non-detection items to block them. IF you can afford to plot to kill a duke, you can certainly pay for a few magic items to stop meddling kids from interfering :)


redcelt32 wrote:


Detect poison - requires a 50gp material component, so it cannot be casually cast on a regular basis.

I... what... I don't even...

Quote:
Detect Magic - operates off of scent, so you can tell that there is magic or not in an area, but you cannot specifically document each magical item someone is carrying. You look rather suspicious and obvious trying to use it discreetly around other NPCs. I have arcane magic spell like burning metal and divine magic smell like burning stone.

1) How does burning STONE smell?

2) So how do people identify items? Detect Magic was specifically updated such that the ENTIRE ABILITY to identify items was based on it. If you don't want players to know people have magic items, perhaps they shouldn't have magic items? Moreover, I'm sure few of them would be in LINE OF SIGHT anyway.

Quote:
In the wilderness or in treasure hordes, it works normally, because you can sniff all you want without anyone caring. There is a material component, a special ruby lens(es) that cost 500gp that can be crafted to allow the spell to work normally. Basically this means its still fully usable, it just requires a few levels before the material component can be afforded.

What.. I don't even...

Quote:
Detect good/evil - only works on supernatural beings, clerics, paladins, inquisitors of deities that have a stronger connection to the alignment. Does not work on normal people unless they are very very evil.

How is this different from how it works already?


Cheapy wrote:
Thalin wrote:
I house-ruled it into not detecting illusions and abjurations; that makes it useful for fusing magic items, but not illusions, invisible people, and magic traps.
Interesting. Is there any fluff for that, or is it just arbitrarily dropping the hammer on something you don't like?

I play it like that too. I think if an illusion is good enough to trick you it can trick you with a spell too.


voska66 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Thalin wrote:
I house-ruled it into not detecting illusions and abjurations; that makes it useful for fusing magic items, but not illusions, invisible people, and magic traps.
Interesting. Is there any fluff for that, or is it just arbitrarily dropping the hammer on something you don't like?
I play it like that too. I think if an illusion is good enough to trick you it can trick you with a spell too.

This doesn't make sense. It's just lazy DMing. Detect Magic doesn't let you pierce an illusion. It might tell you there an illusion exists in your cone if you focus for three rounds. What have you gained? The knowledge an illusions exists in front of you. What illusion? Who the hell knows!

Scarab Sages

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Cartigan wrote:
redcelt32 wrote:


Detect poison - requires a 50gp material component, so it cannot be casually cast on a regular basis.

I... what... I don't even...

Quote:
Detect Magic - operates off of scent, so you can tell that there is magic or not in an area, but you cannot specifically document each magical item someone is carrying. You look rather suspicious and obvious trying to use it discreetly around other NPCs. I have arcane magic spell like burning metal and divine magic smell like burning stone.

1) How does burning STONE smell?

2) So how do people identify items? Detect Magic was specifically updated such that the ENTIRE ABILITY to identify items was based on it. If you don't want players to know people have magic items, perhaps they shouldn't have magic items? Moreover, I'm sure few of them would be in LINE OF SIGHT anyway.

Quote:
In the wilderness or in treasure hordes, it works normally, because you can sniff all you want without anyone caring. There is a material component, a special ruby lens(es) that cost 500gp that can be crafted to allow the spell to work normally. Basically this means its still fully usable, it just requires a few levels before the material component can be afforded.

What.. I don't even...

Quote:
Detect good/evil - only works on supernatural beings, clerics, paladins, inquisitors of deities that have a stronger connection to the alignment. Does not work on normal people unless they are very very evil.

How is this different from how it works already?

You can identify magic items just fine, you just can't walk into a room of 100 people at first level during a banquet and itemize everyones magical inventory.

Similarly, rather than hiring a 1st level caster to stand in your kitchen and cast detect poison on everything that comes out, there is actually a chance that poison could be used. I suppose I could have just said anything beyond simple poisons escapes detection with a free cast 0-level spell. Poisons are the favorite weapon of nobles.
Sorry if my changes confuse you.. not sure why, other than they are different than what is RAW.

Right now any creature 5th level/5HD or higher detects as good/evil if they are. This is not how I define very good or very evil, so it is different.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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You aren't going to solve any of your problems posting here on the forums. To me the problem isn't that he nerfed detect magic, I can kind of see doing that. The thing I see a problem with is he's made his game world unpredictable in a bad way. Surprises should come at you from an in-game perspective, not from a game rules one.

My suggestion is rather than argue with him about the RAW version of detect magic see if you can get him to spell out how his alternate version works and ask him to let you know in advance about house rules and unusual rules interpretations so you know what to expect.

Scarab Sages

Dennis Baker wrote:

You aren't going to solve any of your problems posting here on the forums. To me the problem isn't that he nerfed detect magic, I can kind of see doing that. The thing I see a problem with is he's made his game world unpredictable in a bad way. Surprises should come at you from an in-game perspective, not from a game rules one.

My suggestion is rather than argue with him about the RAW version of detect magic see if you can get him to spell out how his alternate version works and ask him to let you know in advance about house rules and unusual rules interpretations so you know what to expect.

+1

It does take some adjustment to the idea that your 1st lvl party can cast light and detect magic all day long in Pathfinder. Not overpowering by any means, but if you aren't expecting it and lay out an adventure, it could be jarring. For instance, if your group is mostly humans and you anticipated some "hide in the darkness" shenanigans, your casters chain casting light might wreck your NPCs tactics. Sounds to me like this is what happened, you all used detect magic to perceive a hidden opponent and he over-reacted, suddenly imagining every magical trap he ever lays out being detected.


redcelt32 wrote:


You can identify magic items just fine, you just can't walk into a room of 100 people at first level during a banquet and itemize everyones magical inventory.

Why are all their magic items in line of sight?

Quote:
Similarly, rather than hiring a 1st level caster to stand in your kitchen and cast detect poison on everything that comes out, there is actually a chance that poison could be used. I suppose I could have just said anything beyond simple poisons escapes detection with a free cast 0-level spell. Poisons are the favorite weapon of nobles.

The favorite weapon of nobles in our world - where the lowliest adept can't be kept on staff to detect poisons in your food. Sure, people will still try to use poisons, but that doesn't mean that that is going to work in even the lowest noble's house. Read Dune?

Quote:
Right now any creature 5th level/5HD or higher detects as good/evil if they are. This is not how I define very good or very evil, so it is different.

Any creature of 5HD or more has spent a good amount of time and effort in being either good or evil if the detect as one or the other.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Dennis Baker wrote:

The thing I see a problem with is he's made his game world unpredictable in a bad way. Surprises should come at you from an in-game perspective, not from a game rules one.

My suggestion is rather than argue with him about the RAW version of detect magic see if you can get him to spell out how his alternate version works and ask him to let you know in advance about house rules and unusual rules interpretations so you know what to expect.

Well stated Ogre.

Mechanics exist not just to be an arbitration system, but to lend consistency to the world. When players receive a power, they want to know how it works consistently. The GM is within their rights to interpret the power differently, but the players are also within their rights to be privy to what that interpretation is. That's fair on both sides.


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I think the problem is Detect Magic being an automatic at-will ability of every full caster, for the first time in 30 years.

That is a BIG change!

Many aspects of the game (and GM's minds) have not really caught up to that yet. For example, every magic trap above about CR 4 should have non-detection built into it, or it is probably less effective then a non-magical trap.

Sure, it takes 3 rounds to really pin-point stuff, and superstitious barbarians might not like it (not trying to pick on you here BigJohn, just using your example) but 18 seconds isn't that had to come by, and superstitious barbarians can only be around so much before it gets silly. Anti-magic zones, lead lined areas, and totally magic zones all have the same believability issues.

Detect Magic can be a plot busting ability as surely as Detect Evil, Detect Lies, and many of the other detection spells. (Note Paladins Detect Evil ability has been causing similar problems since the late 70's, and people still haven't totally figured it out yet. The bottom line is that Divination can be used to bypass plot elements that were intended to be solved in other ways. Generally this is mildly annoying to a GM, but at least it takes the players a spell slot, or some other "resources". Not having to use any resources to get this effect can feel very unfair to a GM.

While the first instinct is to ban/nerf detect magic, it is only the first of dozens of spells that can accomplish similar bypasses- fly, teleport, contact other plane, scrying, speak with dead, etc. As a GM you generally have to count on the players to use these things and work them into the plot. This is why I have found pre-written mods (especially the Adventure Paths) to be indispensable. I don't have the time (or intellectual fortitude) to take all these different things into account, especially at higher levels, but the pre-generted stuff can do that. Encourage your GM to check out a modern pre-written mod.


Yes. Detect Magic is certainly very powerful, likely the most potent cantrip (prest gives it a good run). The simplest solution is magic aura. If he's important enough to be part of the plot, he's important enough to know about magic aura. If push comes to shove the GM can just invent a level 0 that masks specifically against detect magic (but not other divinations) should the issue needing a level 1 to counter an at-will rear it's head.

As for other spells that'll come up, being a good GM requires a fair amount of system mastery. Some spells are easy to fool such as detect magic, others require more work. Working around Contact Other Plane is another matter entirely. There are a few options for a GM when faced with a spell they don't know how to deal with. First they can ban / nerf it PRIOR to when the player acquires it and inform the players about it. Second, they can let it work that session and then go "dude you're totally wrecking my plot can you tone it down?? individually. Third, they can ask the player or the almighty interwebs "how do I deal with this?". Finally, they can just expect their plot to get foiled and pull out their emergency plot device. Some town getting attacked is usually enough to ride through a session so that they can replan things.

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