can somebody explain to me the classes depend solely on gear to rise AC. I can't see why people don't get better at dodging as they gain levels.
a 20 level fighter with DEX 14 would only have 12 AC.
is there a reason for this? Did sean write something about it like the armar as DR stuff?
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can somebody explain to me the classes depend solely on gear to rise AC. I can't see why people don't get better at dodging as they gain levels.
a 20 level fighter with DEX 14 would only have 12 AC.
is there a reason for this? Did sean write something about it like the armar as DR stuff?
You get Hit Points, which as you level up are mainly an expression of how good you are at defending yourself from harm.
Consider a 10 point hit from a sword:
Lethal at 6HP.
Merely a scratch to 60HP.
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Because that's how D&D 3rd Edition was designed; remember that Pathfinder grew out of the D&D 3.5 ruleset, with an emphasis on backwards compatibility. The class system could have been completely redesigned, but that's not what the gaming community was looking for at the time.
There's also a great feat line in Swashbuckling Adventures (d20 7th Sea)
I've also toyed with the idea of Base Reflex save (not adjusted with feats) adding to AC. This would be ESPECIALLY useful in those DR as Armor games, where you can have your entire armor ignored by some colossal beasty.
The answer is because magic items are used to show the growth. The difference is the level 20 fighter has adamantine +5 fullplate, while the level 1 has chain mail.
yeah, but suppose a 2o level master sparring with his 1st level diciple unarmored. at ac 12 and a disciple with 14 strength will have a 50/50 chance of hitting his 19 levels highter master!
The answer is because magic items are used to show the growth. The difference is the level 20 fighter has adamantine +5 fullplate, while the level 1 has chain mail.yeah, but suppose a 2o level master sparring with his 1st level diciple unarmored. at ac 12 and a disciple with 14 strength will have a 50/50 chance of hitting his 19 levels highter master!
True. But for what? 3 damage of 100+ hp?
While the master hits the novice 100% of the time for 30 damage of his 8 hp.I somehow doubt the level 1 diciple wins that fight.
I tend to like what Bad Axe games did in their 3.5 patch, Trailblazer. Introduce Combat Reactions that allow combatants to dodge, block, etc. It scales dependent on your BAB. Thus, it is a reflection of your combat skill.
I do like the idea of a scaling defense bonus too. And, I am a big fan of the 'you are not your gear' philosophy.
However, if you simply abstract HP, you can easily handwave and say that it is not that you can take an arrow in the throat at level 15 but not level 1 - instead you are more careful to avoid deadly strikes and the like.
I tend to like what Bad Axe games did in their 3.5 patch, Trailblazer. Introduce Combat Reactions that allow combatants to dodge, block, etc. It scales dependent on your BAB. Thus, it is a reflection of your combat skill.
I do like the idea of a scaling defense bonus too. And, I am a big fan of the 'you are not your gear' philosophy.
However, if you simply abstract HP, you can easily handwave and say that it is not that you can take an arrow in the throat at level 15 but not level 1 - instead you are more careful to avoid deadly strikes and the like.
The problem with the hp as ability to dodge abstraction is that when you hit 0, you're dying... so you were being hit in the first place, arrow in the throat and all
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If you want to add class and level based defensive modifiers you should rewrite half of the rules.
HP should be differentiate into stamina (your capacity to resist fatigue and scratches) and body (your actual capacity to survive potentially deadly wounds), with the body being a fixed value based on your constitution while stamina increase with your level.
Then probably armour as DR should be used.
Different rules for the ST.
And so on.
Check some of the d20 modern rules and the Unhearted Arcana for that, but it will be a very different game. .
The problem with the hp as ability to dodge abstraction is that when you hit 0, you're dying... so you were being hit in the first place, arrow in the throat and all
When you reach 0 hp you've run out of luck and the hit is a mortal wound! What's so problematic about that?
If you want to add class and level based defensive modifiers you should rewrite half of the rules.
HP should be differentiate into stamina (your capacity to resist fatigue and scratches) and body (your actual capacity to survive potentially deadly wounds), with the body being a fixed value based on your constitution while stamina increase with your level.
Then probably armour as DR should be used.
Different rules for the ST.
And so on.Check some of the d20 modern rules and the Unhearted Arcana for that, but it will be a very different game. .
We've used a slight variant of the wounds/vigor rules in the UC for years and years now. Works fine.
As for the 'armour makes you harder to hit' abstraction, I don't really mind it. I mean, if we assume that you're unlikely to actually slice your sword through thick metal plates, striking a guy in heavy armour is more about finding the weak spots in his armour. Which become harder and harder to reach, the heavier armour he wears. Meanwhile, light armour is unlikely to offer much resistance to a sword blow, which is why it only offers a little AC, relying more on your inherent Dex modifier to get out of the way.
When you reach 0 hp you've run out of luck and the hit is a mortal wound! What's so problematic about that?
The problem with the hp as ability to dodge abstraction is that when you hit 0, you're dying... so you were being hit in the first place, arrow in the throat and all
Death from shock and bloodloss would be almost instantanious!
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Ignoring the role of Hit Points being the ability to avoid damage brings me to remember one of my favorite memories of AD&D/2ed D&D gaming back in the day.
Had one player who'd thunk a dagger into his own forehead as a fun method of intimidating foes (and showing off). What's 1d4 hit points when you have 100 or so? heh.
So anyway.. if your table treats hit points as a measure of how much punishment you can take.. you get to that kind of silliness.
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CHARACTER HIT POINTS
Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.
If you want some other system for accounting for combat skill, luck, and magical forces making you harder to hurt, you can use some other system. There have been several hundred other RPGs made over the last 37 years that will accommodate you. People use this one because they like it, whether or not you do.
The answer is because magic items are used to show the growth. The difference is the level 20 fighter has adamantine +5 fullplate, while the level 1 has chain mail.yeah, but suppose a 2o level master sparring with his 1st level diciple unarmored. at ac 12 and a disciple with 14 strength will have a 50/50 chance of hitting his 19 levels highter master!
True, though there is still the option to fight defensively and a large number of feats to help out.
As a house rule you could :
- give every class a +1 dodge bonus versus armor class per 4 levels, classes should stack for this purpose.
- don't allow natural armor and armor bonus to stack
- armor gives DR 1/2/3 for light, medium and heavy armor respectively
(alternatively armor could just add 1 point of AC or both)
The dodge bonus replaces the amulet of natural armor, being a little less effective but it is being helped by it being free and allowing better defense against touch attacks.
The DR is a slight boost to armor to have it be more effective against physical attacks, where a more dexterious character would have a good touch AC. Also it gives creatures without class levels a reason to wear armor, like barding.
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Ultimate Combat has a great description of HP in the game. Essentially HP represent the character's ability to dodge lethal blows, turn killing spells into near misses, luckily avoid the dragon's breath. A critical hit actually does no damage at all to a character, but does wear down his ability to avoid damage. Healing spells do not actually heal wounds, but rather restores strength, endurance and skill.
In the end his luck and skill give out and that last blow finally makes contact and drops him to 0 HP or below.
That is the system we use involving HP.
A better representation of what people visualize combat as would be Wounds and Vigor. Combine that with Armor as DR (which would better represent what armor is doing) and you would get a much better combat system that comes closer to what most people visualize is happening in the game.
Using Wounds and Vigor with Armor with DR would be a great time to employ Defense Bonuses to represent a character's ability to avoid the damage to begin with. Unfortunately that is not part of the core system assumption.
So basically, consider that the 3.x mechanics system DOES employ defense bonuses. It just calls them HP.
As a side note, my next home game will use Wounds (modified Vigor) Armor as DR and Defense Bonuses (based upon hit die).
As a side note, my next home game will use Wounds (modified Vigor) Armor as DR and Defense Bonuses (based upon hit die).
What are your modifications to the Vigor system?
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Ultimate Combat has a great description of HP in the game. Essentially HP represent the character's ability to dodge lethal blows, turn killing spells into near misses, luckily avoid the dragon's breath. A critical hit actually does no damage at all to a character, but does wear down his ability to avoid damage. Healing spells do not actually heal wounds, but rather restores strength, endurance and skill.
In the end his luck and skill give out and that last blow finally makes contact and drops him to 0 HP or below.
That is the system we use involving HP.
Unfortunately, no matter what Ultimate Combat says on the matter, that is not the system we use involving HP. The system we use involving HP literally makes characters tougher and harder to kill. There is really no way around accepting this within the core rules. Let us for a moment note a few things.
We have Torlag Trollkiller who's tied up with no place to go. He's helpless and his arch-nemesis Trollman Torlagkiller has decided to toss a mostly naked Torlag Trollkiller into a pit of acid for poops and giggles. It's nothing Torlag hasn't survived before, but instead of coup de grace, Trollman finds this more ammusing.
He drops the bound up fighter into the pit. Torlag is a tough dwarf with a 22 Constitution, and also an 11th level Fighter, and just to show he's a sport, he took Toughness! His HP is 131. He lands in the pit of acid, bound and gagged, and ready to go. Ol' Torlag suffers an average of 35 acid damage every round he is submerged in this deadly brew. Fortunately, unlike your average commoner, he's not vaporized upon landing inside the pit. Nah, he's just outright tougher than that. He should last at least 18 seconds instead of poofing instantaneously.
Torlag then makes an escape artist check (which he invested in sometime during his 11 levels) and being naked has no check penalty, and preforms a houdini while he's deep-frying in an acid hot-tub. He pops out on round 2, after suffering an average of 70 damage. Phew, that was getting close, he thinks. He then begins climbing back up the side of the pit, ready to give Trollman Torlagkiller a piece of his mind (or axe).
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Meanwhile, a suit of full-plate on a rack has hardness 10 and 45 hit points. A CR 19 red dragon's breath is so hot that on average damage it melts it into totally destroyed slag (that is the armor takes an average of 110 damage, halves that to 55 for objects, then applies the 10 points of damage reduction, leaving the armor at 0hp and slagged). This same dragon? He can snatch up Torlag Trollkiller in his mouth via his snatch attack. As written, he then pins Torlag in his mouth and Torlag doesn't even get a Reflex save to avoid the awesome destruction that is his breath weapon!
So our red dragon does so and rolls pretty low on his bite damage, inflicting only about 29 damage. He then unleashes his hellfire breath upon Torlag while he's stuck in his mouth with nowhere to escape or dodge to, and then Torlag takes 110 points of fire damage - enough to melt a suit of full plate to useless scrap in 3 seconds flat - and shouts "Aiiieeee! By the great hammer it's hotter than the devil's own forge in here! Get me down from here you gits! I'm gettin' my biscuits cooked good up here!" he says to his party of like-minded adventurers.
He drops the bound up fighter into the pit. Torlag is a tough dwarf with a 22 Constitution, and also an 11th level Fighter, and just to show he's a sport, he took Toughness! His HP is 131. He lands in the pit of acid, bound and gagged, and ready to go. Ol' Torlag suffers an average of 35 acid damage every round he is submerged in this deadly brew. Fortunately, unlike your average commoner, he's not vaporized upon landing inside the pit. Nah, he's just outright tougher than that.
Says you.
Says me -- Torlag is twisting to protect the vital areas of his body, focusing to shrug off the pain, and generally using the training and luck represented by 11 levels of fighter to avoid being instantly vaporized by the acid.
The same with your dragon scenario -- Torlag's strength, training, luck, and experience allow you to narrate near misses and other mitigations to damage. Torlag is running out of endurance and luck. That last couple of hits actually injure him. Until then, the hits represent wearing him down, using up his tricks and luck.
Yes, you can more and more precisely dictate circumstances to try to remove the ability of the narrator to dictate circumstances other than physical toughness that 131 HP can represent. At some point, though, what you've really done is gone past the point where the abstractions associated with combat make much sense at all -- and past the point where the Rules actually support your non-combat, non-abstracted damage scenarios.
In Conan 2nd ed. by Mongoose (now oop), you had to make saves for massive damage starting at 20 hp. That meant a high end crit could be forcing you to save or die. All of these systems are abstractions though; none are really "realistic". Most gamers define realism as matching how they visualise things - which isn't necessarily realistic.
I think where the rules failed on this point was to assign flat damage to enviromental hazards and whatnot. Unless you have specific protection, if you fall into a lava flow: you die. Not: you take 3d6 hp per round as you wade out of the erupting Mount Vesuvius.
Increase the base AC (ie, 10), by 1 every time the character would receive an iterative attack from high BAB (ie, every +6 BAB)
Add a Dodge bonus to AC based on the character's Reflex save, reduced by any Armor Check Penalty.
Ignoring the role of Hit Points being the ability to avoid damage brings me to remember one of my favorite memories of AD&D/2ed D&D gaming back in the day.
Had one player who'd thunk a dagger into his own forehead as a fun method of intimidating foes (and showing off). What's 1d4 hit points when you have 100 or so? heh.
So anyway.. if your table treats hit points as a measure of how much punishment you can take.. you get to that kind of silliness.
I'd let him roll an attack... and inform him that he's performing a coup-de-grace on himself.
Ultimate Combat has a great description of HP in the game. Essentially HP represent the character's ability to dodge lethal blows, turn killing spells into near misses, luckily avoid the dragon's breath. A critical hit actually does no damage at all to a character, but does wear down his ability to avoid damage. Healing spells do not actually heal wounds, but rather restores strength, endurance and skill.
In the end his luck and skill give out and that last blow finally makes contact and drops him to 0 HP or below.
That is the system we use involving HP.
Unfortunately, no matter what Ultimate Combat says on the matter, that is not the system we use involving HP. The system we use involving HP literally makes characters tougher and harder to kill. There is really no way around accepting this within the core rules. Let us for a moment note a few things.
We have Torlag Trollkiller who's tied up with no place to go. He's helpless and his arch-nemesis Trollman Torlagkiller has decided to toss a mostly naked Torlag Trollkiller into a pit of acid for poops and giggles. It's nothing Torlag hasn't survived before, but instead of coup de grace, Trollman finds this more ammusing.
He drops the bound up fighter into the pit. Torlag is a tough dwarf with a 22 Constitution, and also an 11th level Fighter, and just to show he's a sport, he took Toughness! His HP is 131. He lands in the pit of acid, bound and gagged, and ready to go. Ol' Torlag suffers an average of 35 acid damage every round he is submerged in this deadly brew. Fortunately, unlike your average commoner, he's not vaporized upon landing inside the pit. Nah, he's just outright tougher than that. He should last at least 18 seconds instead of poofing instantaneously.
Torlag then makes an escape artist check (which he invested in sometime during his 11 levels) and being naked has no check penalty, and preforms a houdini while he's deep-frying in an acid hot-tub. He pops out on round 2, after suffering an average of...
Dwarf bound and gagged in an acid pit probably doesn't have to roll for escape artist, as his bonds are probably the first thing to melt. He's probably going to loose his clothes, hair and so on. I'd like to note that the items are not dissolved to nothing, just bad enough that they are useless. A badly blistered Dwarf crawls out and will heal over a time, unlike a mere commoner, who probably didn't benefit from inhumane toughness and wasn't able to clench his teeth, swallowed some of the acid and suffered enough harm to die of shock and so on. Dissolving bosth completely could take a few hours, but they need much less to die.
The same could be applied for the dragon breath. it doesn't have to melt the armour, just buning the senstitive parts so that it no longer holds together and some parts perhaps twisting in the heat and thus it's ruined. Dwarf is badly burned, but still kicking.
Depending on interpretation of damage it may or may not look ridiculous.
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So basically it's somehow less verisimilitude breaking to accept that something that has been destroyed is actually destroyed and not merely bent, warped, or somehow unusable, just to try and make some sort of strange justification as to why some guy can "dodge" the destructive force of fire hotter than liquid magma as it erupts around him while he's clutched inside a dragon's jaws; or somehow try to explain how the fighter through "skill and luck" doesn't instantly vaporize in a vat of acid that would likely destroy the body of any normal person who fell into it almost instantly (the average commoner has 3 hp and a 10-11 Con, so 35 damage from acid would drop them to -32 or 22 points over what it takes to outright kill them instantly).
Sorry, not buying it. In a fantasy world, it can make some measure of sense to believe that powerful individuals literally become tougher. The idea that they are just innately tougher is demonstrated multiple times throughout the system, and in a world where a 11th level Fighter can tear a building apart with a stick he found lying on the ground, by virtue of being SuperBadassSpecial(TM), actually seems to make more sense than trying to twist and squeeze an inhumanly powerful being into the realm of realistic human limitations.
If you want that kind of system, then perhaps the Vitality/Wound system would be the correct rule modification for you. However, without that, you are basically just going to end up making excuses that make less sense than merely accepting that people who are of godlike strength could somehow have the ability to outright survive things people just cannot. And yes, an 11th level Fighter is of godlike strength, or at least demigod levels. They can tear through boulders with their fists!
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For those curious, they really can. An 11th level Fighter with a +6 strength can Power Attack for +6 damage with his unarmed strikes, meaning that a Fighter can deal an average of 6 damage to a giant boulder per unarmed strike, and can strike it 4 times per round, inflicting 24 points of damage to a stone wall per round with their fists alone.
If instead of their fists, they decided to pick up a stick, they could instead deal 1d6+18 or an average of 13 damage per swing over 3 strikes in a round, or 39 points of damage with a club that costs 0 gp and can be found more or less anywhere.
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I'd let him roll an attack... and inform him that he's performing a coup-de-grace on himself.Ignoring the role of Hit Points being the ability to avoid damage brings me to remember one of my favorite memories of AD&D/2ed D&D gaming back in the day.
Had one player who'd thunk a dagger into his own forehead as a fun method of intimidating foes (and showing off). What's 1d4 hit points when you have 100 or so? heh.
So anyway.. if your table treats hit points as a measure of how much punishment you can take.. you get to that kind of silliness.
I would rule the same thing.. Under 1e/2e that would be an autokill...
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What the OP mentioned has been done in the D20 version of A Game of Thrones, and it worked well - within that context.
Instead of rolling an attack vs AC, Attack was rolled vs a Defence roll of 1D20 + defense bonus depending on class + shields. If less than the defense roll, the blow was parried.
Shields offered a bonus, armor provided DR.
Now, while it worked well for AGOT, the problem if you want to adapt this to PFRPG is : ... [drums] Monsters ! [/Drums] who don't follow the fencing logic above.
You'd have to rewrite them all, and that'd be a lot of work.
Ashiel, don't forget that the fighter would need to take IUS in order to punch boulders to dust. :) But yeah, I whole-heartedly agree that it makes more sense to simply assume high-level characters are not normal people. (And I find it more fun.)
As to the main topic- I've considered a house rule that would allow BaB to be added to AC. This would also include removing Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and armor/shield enhancement bonuses. ACs would work out to right about the same range.
The only thing (besides not having run recently) keeping me from using this house rule is the fact that I would like to come up with some benefits for magic items to replace those that I would be taking away. I want them to still be possible items/bonuses, mostly just for fun.
EDIT: as a slight aside, the changes Pathfinder made to Power Attack help lessen the effect of being without your gear, since you won't be taking an extra 40+ dmg (for example) from that full power attack anymore. You're still pretty screwed, tho.
Why would you need IUS to deal damage with unarmed strikes?
Nonlethal damage won't affect a stone.
If you want that kind of system, then perhaps the Vitality/Wound system would be the correct rule modification for you. However, without that, you are basically just going to end up making excuses that make less sense than merely accepting that people who are of godlike strength could somehow have the ability to outright survive things people just cannot. And yes, an 11th level Fighter is of godlike strength, or at least demigod levels. They can tear through boulders with their fists!
Isn't that standard kung-fu/anime trick to smash foor tiles when you miss the enemy? :)
However you are ignoring this paragraph in the rules for smashing objects, which clearly declares the boulder a winner against fists and sticks.
PRD[/url]]Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Yeah, I just remembered that part. Probably unnecessary then, unless your stones can dodge really well. :)
I probably would've caught my mistake quicker if I was well-rested. It's bedtime here. :P
EDIT: Zmar- since it's possible for real people to break real stones with their hands and feet, it would be a little unfair to call them 'ineffective weapons' when our pretend people are trying to break pretend stones.
You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
I did not know about that one.
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It's the logical converse of taking a -4 to deal nonlethal with a lethal weapon.
EDIT: Zmar- since it's possible for real people to break real stones with their hands and feet, it would be a little unfair to call them 'ineffective weapons' when our pretend people are trying to break pretend stones.
Good ol' DM Fiat. "I don't like it, so you can't do it!" :)
You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.Yeah, I just remembered that part. Probably unnecessary then, unless your stones can dodge really well. :)
I probably would've caught my mistake quicker if I was well-rested. It's bedtime here. :P
EDIT: Zmar- since it's possible for real people to break real stones with their hands and feet, it would be a little unfair to call them 'ineffective weapons' when our pretend people are trying to break pretend stones.
Are we talking brittle slate that I can indeed break myself in smaller pieces or as Ashiel mentioned a boulder. Can you please show me someone damaging a boulder, say roughly two feet across barehanded or with a random stick? I'd truly appreciate that.
Edit: And yes, breaking several separate slabs is different than breaking one homogenous piece of stone.
And there is a difference between a person in real life who is likely no more than 3rd level in terms of D&D capabilities. Also, the line about some weapons not being able to deal damage to it is irrelevant, because it is completely undefined within the game, and thus not really relevant to the discussion at all and within the realm of a GM-fiat out.
So yeah, normal martial artists might be able to break stone slabs if they are sufficiently strong enough with sufficient training, while 11th level D&D heroes can shatter stones with their bare hands without even bothering to train their rock-fu.
At this point, the issue is just being dodged, and the issue is that high level characters are in fact high level characters. They have physical endurance that rivals the very dragons themselves and creatures of legend like angels and demons. They are not just some skilled dude with a pointy stick, they are skilled dudes with bodies like mountains, arms like cannons, and teeth that could kill a bear after they wrestled the bear and held it in a choke-hold with nothing more than a wet loincloth (wet in the bear's own blood of course!).
We have something for "simi-realistic" and "semi-fantastic", and we call it E3 and E6 respectively. In an E3 game, the Fighter is likely to be just as frightened of a vat of acid, or flowing magma, as anyone would be, unless they had resist energy cast on them by the party's mage, and even then the acid or lava would be threateningly dangerous.
However, for those of us who plan on playing up to high levels where characters can free-fall like comets into the ground without dying, suffer the dragon Smog's breath while pinned in his mouth and live to tell the tale, or swim across a river of acid after they used their last potion of protection from energy: acid on unconscious loved one they're carrying with them to the other side...
Well HP makes you more durable.
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There's no defense bonus, IMHO, because characters in D&D 3.5 (and by extension, PF) are American action heroes, rather than Asian. Watch any Wuxia film (i.e. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), then watch an American action film (i.e. Die Hard). In the Wuxia film, characters don't get hit very much. Laying a scratch on someone is seen as an act of skill. Furthermore, when someone does get hit, it is often fatal. In the American film, the hero gets hit all the time. Explosions, shrapnel, the inevitable fight with the huge foreign guy (usually Russian, maybe German), the hero gets the snot knocked out of him time and time again. However, he remains standing. The current system favors taking the hit and surviving it, rather than avoiding it altogether. In other words, this system is built to play John McClane, not Wu Wei.
And there is a difference between a person in real life who is likely no more than 3rd level in terms of D&D capabilities. Also, the line about some weapons not being able to deal damage to it is irrelevant, because it is completely undefined within the game, and thus not really relevant to the discussion at all and within the realm of a GM-fiat out.
So yeah, normal martial artists might be able to break stone slabs if they are sufficiently strong enough with sufficient training, while 11th level D&D heroes can shatter stones with their bare hands without even bothering to train their rock-fu.
At this point, the issue is just being dodged, and the issue is that high level characters are in fact high level characters. They have physical endurance that rivals the very dragons themselves and creatures of legend like angels and demons. They are not just some skilled dude with a pointy stick, they are skilled dudes with bodies like mountains, arms like cannons, and teeth that could kill a bear after they wrestled the bear and held it in a choke-hold with nothing more than a wet loincloth (wet in the bear's own blood of course!).
We have something for "simi-realistic" and "semi-fantastic", and we call it E3 and E6 respectively. In an E3 game, the Fighter is likely to be just as frightened of a vat of acid, or flowing magma, as anyone would be, unless they had resist energy cast on them by the party's mage, and even then the acid or lava would be threateningly dangerous.
However, for those of us who plan on playing up to high levels where characters can free-fall like comets into the ground without dying, suffer the dragon Smog's breath while pinned in his mouth and live to tell the tale, or swim across a river of acid after they used their last potion of protection from energy: acid on unconscious loved one they're carrying with them to the other side...
Well HP makes you more durable.
Depends on your campaign I suppose, I have to chuck it down to a huge dose of luck and skill more often than anything else.
Some houseruling is probably in order to make it work though, because in game there is no difference between a dragon's massive ammount of hitpoints or a high level fighter with a healthy constitution.Even an epic fighter will die in my campaign if he willingly jumps down to freefall down a 7 level high building to hug the pavement, even without I treat falls higher than 20 feet to deal double damage and the epic NPC wizard dies from a stab in the back with a non-magical dagger if it fits my story, simply having run out off luck.
And there is a difference between a person in real life who is likely no more than 3rd level in terms of D&D capabilities. Also, the line about some weapons not being able to deal damage to it is irrelevant, because it is completely undefined within the game, and thus not really relevant to the discussion at all and within the realm of a GM-fiat out.
I think the book says exactly what is necessary to make it relevant. The clause about ineffective weapons does not say "ask your DM first." If by DM fiat you mean "not all DMs read the rules closely enough to realize this specific thing" then, sure, you're right, but then you're redefining what is effectively a textbook answer to serve your own argument.
Clubs and fists are ineffective against boulders and stone walls. Sorry.
Using Wounds and Vigor with Armor with DR would be a great time to employ Defense Bonuses to represent a character's ability to avoid the damage to begin with. Unfortunately that is not part of the core system assumption.
This is exactly what I've done in one of my games. It works best in a low-power setting, but it works really, really well.
I don't know if this makes sense to anyone but me, but if we have both attack bonuses (BAB) and defense bonuses from classes, and scaling at relatively the same speed. (fast for fighters, slow for casters), then the point becomes moot. Having different sources means that there is less of a gap between melee and spellcasting units and it keeps things balanced.
can somebody explain to me the classes depend solely on gear to rise AC. I can't see why people don't get better at dodging as they gain levels.
a 20 level fighter with DEX 14 would only have 12 AC.
is there a reason for this? Did sean write something about it like the armar as DR stuff?
If you remove all the magical armor bonuses from items and give everyone +1 AC per level, you will have what you're looking for.