Hi, theres the Stand Still feat and at first glance it looks like a nice thing for my character, but I'm not sure if it's actually worth it, or just looks nice but ultimately doesn't perform as well as you think.
First maybe I should describe what it is that I expect:
I'm playing a TWF ninja, so getting full attacks in is pretty important for me, because of sneak attacks. Now of course some enemies know that, and will try to avoid it as good as they can by forcing me to move each round.
So my rationale is that if he tries to move, he provokes AoO, and I force him to stay where he is. I'll assume that I'll have a flanking partner for SA.
Of course there are a couple of potential problems with this:
1) It's a combat manouver check not an attack roll. Which means that my weapon enhancement is just as worthless as my weapon focus and most importantly weapon finesse. Add to that the fact that I'm a 3/4 BAB class, I might not even suceed in stopping them that often.
2) Acrobatics seem to rise at a faster pace than my CMD does, so if an enemy has decent dex, and skilled acrobatics, they aren't even going to provoke in the first place. (with 12 dex, acrobatics as class skill and kept at level, they going to make the check more than 50% of the time) I'm not sure how often acrobatics skilled mobs actually show up though. Defensive Combat Training helps a bit with that problem at higher levels I guess, but thats yet another feat.
3) Withdraw action. Nothing I can do against that, but at least the enemy used up his entire turn, so not an entire loss.
So as you see I came up with quite a few scenarios just in 5 minutes where the Stand Still feat doesn't even actually stop the enemy the way I imagine.
Now, am I just overly paranoid, or are those real concerns and issues with the feat?
Are there ways to alleviate some or all of these, or should I forget about it?
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1) A combat maneuver roll IS an attack roll, so as long as that particular type of maneuver can be done with a weapon you get those bonuses. This one requires you to threaten and you replace the AoO, so presumably you do it with the weapon and apply those bonuses. Disarm and Sunder are examples of maneuvers that can always be done with any given weapon.
2) Not all mobs have acro, and many that do have it don't have it maxed out. And even then, some might choose to take the AoO rather than slow down (though this is unlikely).
3) Yeah, you're kinda screwed here. Though it only avoids provoking on the first square of movement, so try to flank with a buddy so that they have to move through 2+ squares for at least one of you.
Stand Still isn't the most useful feat. It's great for preventing an enemy from charging past you to your caster (you can't acro on a charge), though they'd only do that if they assume you to be flat-footed because you haven't acted (but combat reflexes lets you when flat-footed).
Very situational. Not the best feat, not even remotely the worst feat. Just kinda meh.
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This is one of those feats that works well with a character concept rather than min-maxing.
Keep in mind that no single feat is 100% applicable 100% of the time.
Personally I find the easiest characters to defeat as a GM are the tightly focused min-maxed ones. I call them One Trick Ponies. Deny them their one trick and they are out of the combat.
A character that is more rounded and ready for a variety of situations is far more difficult to fight. So, taking Stand Still is a great option if it works well with your character concept, allows you to use other feats or abilities for other focuses of your character, and ultimately makes for fun gaming.
As far as your concerns...
1) not sure of any weapon that is a "Stand Still" weapon. So yeah your going to loose your weapon bonuses to your CMB. 3/4 BAB however is nothing to laugh at. If your concept is to do damage in melee then your STR should be fairly high or you have the Agile Maneuvers Feat. So you might not stop a few from getting by. So what. Makes for more exciting games.
2) Acrobatics is a rather uncommon skill, in my opinion. I wouldn't worry about it too much. But I would suggest Combat Reflexes to get extra AoOs on other NPCs.
3) I can't tell you how many times as GM I have used Withdraw but the PCs have still positioned me so that someone is going to get tat AoO anyway. Might not be you every time, but when it is you will kick butt!
So, I would say that if it fits your concept then go for it.
Its a tarp!
this feat seems to be for the pole arm fighter that couldn't swing the 13 int for improved trip. It has uses, but you'd almost have to build your character around tanking and reach to get any use out of them. If someone is in the middle of a flank sandwich they either 5 foot step or withdraw, both of which keep you from using this feat.
I've thought about taking Improved Trip, but since I won't be using trip weapons (I'll be using wakizashi for story reasons), I've been looking for other ways to stop people from running away.
I guess I'll have to talk to my GM to see if stand still would apply to weapons or not. Of course trip does similar things, but also has aplications outside of stopping runners, so it would probably still be better.
Wakazashi / spiked chain ? Call it a manriki gusari.
Or better yet use a scythe and call it a kama. Thats what a kama is after all, a harvesting implement.
I'm not clear on why you would ever take Stand Still over Trip?
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I ask myself that as well. As I said, it sounded like a cool idea at first, but the more you examine it, the less good it actually is.
Wakazashi / spiked chain ? Call it a manriki gusari
Ninja aren't proficient with spiked chains. Also I would need weapon focus twice then.
I could just wield a kama or sickle or hanbo (the 3 trip weapons ninjas are proficient with) in the offhand or dual wielding. All are light weapons so finesse works, but I'd either need focus twice too, or not weild a wakizashi.
Or this Kusarigama, but I really have no idea how thats supposed to work. Also not finesse-able I think
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Improved trip also opens up the option for Greater Trip, which is an amazingly powerful feat.
Whether you Trip or Stand Still, Step Up makes it harder for people to escape your attempt to impede their movement: withdrawing is no longer effective and step up may allow you to position yourself for a flank on your CMB role in the case of the enemy trying to tumble away - or cause a situation where the enemy has to try to move through your square, making the acrobatics DC that much harder.
I see a lot of utility with these feats for all melee characters -- and great stylistic synergy for martial artists (monks/ninjas), but fighters are the only characters that typically have enough feats to be look at a lot of the one-off combat options like Stand Still.
Step Up only works against 5-ft steps, not normal movement or withdraw action, so I don't think your examples actually work
this feat seems to be for the pole arm fighter...
Except the only applying vs. adjacent squares part... 8-/
(well, I´m not 100% sure of the RAW there, i.e. if ´moving thru adjacent squares´ includes moving from threatened square @10´ into adjacent square, but Jason B confirmed that it doesn´t apply to Reach...)Having a similar effect to Trip, but requiring Combat Reflexes vs. Combat Expertise is a good aspect.
Trip is also subject to enemies having big bonuses to Trip CMD like Stability, as well as Flyers being immune to Trip.
For that reason, Stand Still has advantages vs. a wide group of targets.
That there are no ´Stand Still´ weapons is irrelevant:
there aren´t Sunder weapons, and you can also Trip and Disarm with any weapon. Although Trip now has a FAQ specifically making the weapon-specific bonuses not apply if you use a non-Trip weapon, you can still use weapon Reach, etc. Weapon-specific bonuses DO apply to any other Maneuver using a weapon, e.g. Sunder or Disarm.
It isn´t clear in the rules what exactly is a weapon-using maneuver and what maneuvers DON´T use weapons,
but note the details of how this Feat is written: it requires threatening, i.e. with a weapon.
If you are unarmed and don´t have Imp. UAS, you don´t threaten, so you can´t take the AoO.
If Stand Still was a ´weaponless´ maneuver (independent of your actual weapons, etc)
why would it matter in that case if you have Imp. UAS (or another weapon held that threatens) or not?
Based on that, it clearly seems to be ´using a weapon´, and thus,
would benefit from weapon bonuses barring a specific FAQ ala Trip.
I´m not sure why StabbityDoom thought that you can´t use Acrobatics during a Charge... I don´t see that in the rules.
Also most animals get a +4 bonus on CMD because they have 4 legs.
But guess nothing stops anyone from having trip and stand still and use whatever is better for the situation.
The viability of Stand Still is situational depending on your GM. With certain GMs, it will be nigh useless, and with others it will be an okay feat.
The question I want to ask you is how many times do you seem to get AoO from people using a move action to leave a square adjacent to you? In my games, this specific situation doesn't happen all that often. Big Stupid Enemies don't want to move away and instead will just pound on you. Tiny Mobile Enemies probably have a good Acrobatics score and can just tumble away. Smart Magical Enemies often have a magical way to get away (hello DDoor). And if not, there is always the 5-foot step, and the withdraw action. All of these render the Stand Still feat completely useless.
Sure nothing is "Stand Still immune" so to speak, but the application of the feat is so narrow, that you may find yourself without the opportunity to use it in most battles.
Pin Down from UC is much more viable than Stand still, IMO.
Pin Down from UC is much more viable than Stand still, IMO.
With the slight problem that my TWF ninja will most likely never gain the 11th level of fighter. :)
Except the only applying vs. adjacent squares part... 8-/
huh. My opinion of the feat just dropped even further...
The PF feat is considered subpar. By making it a CMD check to make it work, it basically is going to fail half of the time, and even then you have to get the AoO off on the enemy, which can be overcome.
The 3.5 version of the feat can be found in one of the Cavaliar archetypes....the enemy struck has to make a Reflex save = 10+ damage dealt to move (doesn't actually take damage). this basically means it's always going to be frozen in place.
3.5 also had the Thicket of Blades stance from Tome of 9 Swords, where enemies ALWAYS trigger AoO's for movement (cancels out any other feats and skills/actions that stop them). Meaning you always got the AoO.
Of course, that means you end up with something big adn nasty sitting next to you a lot of the time. But that's what fighters do...beat down stuff standing next to them.
==Aelryinth
There´s a Core Rage Power called Unexpected Strike that makes movement always provoke an AoO (I´m not sure if that bars Acrobatics or not, I don´t think so, but I´m not sure), including 5´ steps and Withdraw, and it also applies to movement ENTERING a threatened square.
I would usually find other uses for my Feats, but it´s not TOTALLY a bad feat either.
I am probably more likely to take it vs. Trip. But you can Trip without any Feat if you want to, if you have Reach advantage you avoid the AoO even though you technically provoke.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
huh. My opinion of the feat just dropped even further...Except the only applying vs. adjacent squares part... 8-/
(well, I´m not 100% sure of the RAW there, i.e. if ´moving thru adjacent squares´ includes moving from threatened square @10´ into adjacent square, but Jason B confirmed that it doesn´t apply to Reach...)
Yeah, alot of people felt similarly...
But given the redundant wording, I suspect that it DOES work if you only threaten at Reach and the target moves into an adjacent square. The leaving of the Reach square is what provokes, and you use the original Reach for that attack, but ´leaving the Reach square´ must by definition also be ´moving thru an adjacent square´. I will FAQ this post, but with that reading I see the Feat as at least allowing a little bit of love for Reach, while still being limited (i.e. doesn´t work when they leave Reach squares to other squares equal/farther away, which I believe was the main concern with the adjacent limitation, e.g. locking down a huge area...)
Pin Down from UC is much more viable than Stand still, IMO.With the slight problem that my TWF ninja will most likely never gain the 11th level of fighter. :)
Whoops. Sorry, reading really is fundamental... heh
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I'm not clear on why you would ever take Stand Still over Trip?
Imagine you're Enlarged with a pole-arm: you control a LOT of real-estate, and you have Combat Reflexes (prereq for Stand Still).
Enemies who would attack you (by eating an Ao during their movement) are now stopped in their tracks, losing their melee actions; and you can leisurely whack their heads off on your turn, then 5' back farther away.
For reach builds, it's one of the best combat feats in the game -- and it gets even better when you're flying and all three dimensions are opened up.
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I'm not clear on why you would ever take Stand Still over Trip?Imagine you're Enlarged with a pole-arm: you control a LOT of real-estate, and you have Combat Reflexes (prereq for Stand Still).
Enemies who would attack you (by eating an Ao during their movement) are now stopped in their tracks, losing their melee actions; and you can leisurely whack their heads off on your turn, then 5' back farther away.
For reach builds, it's one of the best combat feats in the game -- and it gets even better when you're flying and all three dimensions are opened up.
Thugsalot I think you missed this part of the feat (referenced earlier in the thread).
Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn...
The feat only works against opponents adjacent to you, not ones you threaten. A pole arm does you no good. The only ability I know of that can do what you want to do is the Stalwart Defender defensive stance power Halting Blow.
Also, be aware that an enlarged medium creature wielding a reach weapon only threatens squares 15 and 20 feet away from her with the weapon, NOT 5 or 10 feet.
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I've seen it used by a fighter to stop enemies trying to get to casters.
When you blow your round of actions at even moderate levels (level 7 upwards), then chances of surviving to try again become very slim. Especially for baddies. So when the baddy tries to get your squishy, but fails cos your fighter hit him and stopped him in his tracks, then he's going to die and he knows it.
This feat can be great, but like someone said above, it's situational. Depends what the GM is doing to try and screw you (especially if the GM metagames his knowledge of your character and has the baddies respond because of it).
Cheers