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Hi all,
I could use some help with the crunch for my next character. I've never played a Rogue-type character in a campaign before, and I feel it's high time to give it a try.
I'm thinking of a creepy "doctor of anatomy" who's been kicked off the medical academy of Lepidstadt in Ustalav. He considers himself an unarmed scholar who just happens to have to fend for his life with his "scalpel" and his "reflex hammer" a lot, when he is merely "tryink to khelp". His name is Laslo Brzycieszęski. "Now, I know is difficult name. Khow 'bout you just call me Doctor Brzycieszęski?"
Clearly, Laslo is going to be an Alchemist (Vivisectionist), possibly also a Preservationist for instant flanking buddies and an Internalist for Uncanny Dodge. Poisoning also sounds like fun, but is probably too dependent on being able to buy (or find) enough poison to make it worthwhile.
Now, due to lack of experience, I find it hard to settle for a feat build. I'm thinking of these two principal styles, both of which are intended to be viable even without the opportunity to Sneak Attack:
- Finesse with Dervish Dance. Takes a level of Fighter (Cad) at CL 2 to get access to scimitars, saps, longbows, the Acrobatics and Stealth skills, and a timely feat slot for Dervish Dance.
- Strength-based build, toothy half-orc, greataxe, heavy armor, Power Attack. Takes a level of Fighter (core) for access to saps, longbows, heavy armor (full plate), and a timely feat slot for Power Attack.
The first has the advantage of good skills (Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics), excellent synergy with Dex-boosting mutagens and spells (to hit, damage, AC, even initiative), and nice flavor. The downside is craptacular damage at first level (no biggie) and generally lower damage output than a Str-based build.
The second has the advantage of being cheap and easy, and doing a load of damage without even trying. However, a half-orc in plate wielding a greataxe is probably too far away from the original character concept to work out. Also, I'd be an unmaneuverable tinbox, might be harder to get flanking that way.
Both styles will require one or more secondary styles to make sure Sneak Attack is appropriately exploited when the opportunity offers itself:
- Spring Attack. Does not give more attacks, but makes flanking easy and safe, works with Dervish Dance, and has great defensive value.
- TWF. Doesn't work with Dervish Dance, requires at least two extra weapons apart from the scimitar (two saps? or later Merciful hanbos?), but yields the best damage output.
- Feral Mutagen. Very cheap but limited way to get several attacks at low levels (starting at 4th), but quickly gets expensive to maintain (Amulet of Mighty Fists). Should work with Dervish Dance by raw, since my off-hand remains empty. Doesn't cost any feats.
- Sap Adept & Sap Mastery. Does not work with Dervish Dance (not even with the Blade of Mercy trait), and thus is not worthwhile until I get SA +3d6. Works well with TWF, though. Excellent damage on ambushes (but only then). Nonlethal damage is tricky and easy to heal, though if the enemy uses actions to heal up, it's their loss.
- Rapid Shot, for a "switch hitter" approach. Costs two feats (three if I want Precise Shot). Obviously does not work with Dervish Dance, usually only works in Round 1. When it works, it's good action economy, though: I fire a full volley of arrows while the enemy must move to close with me. Might do more good than Sap Mastery. Has the advantage of also doing some good when I'm prevented from melee combat (or too low on HP).
Here's a sample build, using the Dervish Dance primary style, Spring Attack secondary style, and Rapid Shot tertiary style, based on the Alchemist (Vivisectionist, Preservationist, Internalist) and Fighter (Cad) classes:
15-point buy, human:
Str 9, Dex 18 (incl. racial +2), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 7.
Level | Class | Features | Feats | Discoveries
01 | Alc | SA +1d6, Brew Potions, Extracts, Mutagen, Breath Mastery | Finesse, Dodge (human) | —
02 | Ftr | Proficiencies, Skills, Bonus Feat | Dervish Dance | —
03 | Alc | Bottled Ally I, Poison Resistance +2 | Mobility | Feral Mutagen
04 | Alc | SA +2d6, Disease Resistance | — | —
05 | Alc | — | Spring Attack | Spontaneous Healing
06 | Alc | SA +3d6, Bottled Ally II | — | —
07 | Alc | Uncanny Dodge | Arcane Strike | Lingering Spirit
08 | Alc | SA +4d6 | — | —
09 | Alc | Bottled Ally III | Quick Draw | Bleeding Attack
10 | Alc | SA +5d6 | — | —
11 | Alc | Bottled Ally IV | Point-Blank Shot | Extend Potion
12 | Alc | SA +6d6 | — | —
13 | Alc | — | Rapid Shot | Greater Mutagen
14 | Alc | SA +7d6 | — | —
15 | Alc | Bottled Ally V | Improved Critical (Scimitar) | Eternal Potion
"Now, yesteemed colleague, your opinion, vhat is it?"
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Well first things first, lets dispel some of your incorrect ideas.
Feral mutagen isn't once per day. You can use it as many times per day as you want it just costs you an hour to prepare another dose of it.
Second, TWF comes up as often as you make it, move into range and go to town.
Third, Let go of the dervish dance & spring attack build. they are sub-optimal for you. You need time on target and both of those keep you from making the multiple attacks per round you need to keep you contributing to the fight.
Sneak attack builds are all about getting multiple attacks on target every round they can OR dumping status effects on the target in place of the SA dice.
Usually you will want as many attacks a round as you can get (Feral Mutagen or TWF) to cause the SA to be applied as often as possible.
Up until 8th level or so Feral Build will be your highest damaging and most effective build even with the 1 hr brew time between uses. After that TWF will give you more attacks and hence more chances to SA.
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Feral mutagen isn't once per day. You can use it as many times per day as you want it just costs you an hour to prepare another dose of it.
Wow, that's pretty damn awesome. :o
Second, TWF comes up as often as you make it, move into range and go to town.
I can't both move into range and go to town in the same round. And staying in place for a full attack is extremely dangerous for a squishy... or can I count myself unsquishy with a high Dex for AC and a d8/Con 14?
Third, Let go of the dervish dance & spring attack build. they are sub-optimal for you. You need time on target and both of those keep you from making the multiple attacks per round you need to keep you contributing to the fight.
Do I really need damage on the level of a two-handed Power Attacker to contribute to the fight?
Up until 8th level or so Feral Build will be your highest damaging and most effective build even with the 1 hr brew time between uses. After that TWF will give you more attacks and hence more chances to SA.
Shouldn't three attacks at full BAB still be better than four attacks at -2/-2/-7/-7, though? I guess TWF starts to be better as soon as you use two saps.
I'll try to come up with a second build replacing Spring Attack.
OK, here's another build:
15-point buy, human:
Str 10, Dex 18 (incl. racial +2), Con 14, Int 12 (yeah...), Wis 12, Cha 7.
Level | Class | Features | Feats | Discoveries
01 | Alc | SA +1d6, Brew Potions, Extracts, Mutagen, Breath Mastery | Finesse, 2WF | —
02 | Ftr | Proficiencies, Skills, Bonus Feat | Sap Adept | —
03 | Alc | Bottled Ally I, Poison Resistance +2 | Arcane Strike | Feral Mutagen
04 | Alc | SA +2d6, Disease Resistance | — | —
05 | Alc | — | Quick Draw | Spontaneous Healing
06 | Alc | SA +3d6, Bottled Ally II | — | —
07 | Alc | Uncanny Dodge | Sap Master | Lingering Spirit
08 | Alc | SA +4d6 | — | —
09 | Alc | Bottled Ally III | Improved 2WF | Bleeding Attack
10 | Alc | SA +5d6 | — | —
11 | Alc | Bottled Ally IV | Precise Shot | Extend Potion
12 | Alc | SA +6d6 | — | —
13 | Alc | — | Rapid Shot | Greater Mutagen
14 | Alc | SA +7d6 | — | —
15 | Alc | Bottled Ally V | Weapon Focus: Light Mace | Eternal Potion
I'm not so fond of the fact that I lose the ability to contribute in non-SA situations, and that I lose Dex-to-damage (especially if I can have a Dex mutagen on all the time).
Food for thought: Beastmorph Vivisectionist. Grants access to Rake and Pounch eventually, as well as grab/constrict. And you have Greater Invis as an extract by then too...
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Feral mutagen isn't once per day. You can use it as many times per day as you want it just costs you an hour to prepare another dose of it.
Wow, that's pretty damn awesome. :o
Second, TWF comes up as often as you make it, move into range and go to town.
I can't both move into range and go to town in the same round. And staying in place for a full attack is extremely dangerous for a squishy... or can I count myself unsquishy with a high Dex for AC and a d8/Con 14?
You have the same issues all other lightly armored melee characters have. You have to wait till your opponent is occupied by someone else before you unleash death. You just have the advantage of blur and invisibility to make getting to that point easier.
At 5th level with feral Mutagen you can be hitting every full round for over 12D6 damage. with that kind of output you really only need 1-2 rounds to destroy any target who gets in your way.Third, Let go of the dervish dance & spring attack build. they are sub-optimal for you. You need time on target and both of those keep you from making the multiple attacks per round you need to keep you contributing to the fight.
Do I really need damage on the level of a two-handed Power Attacker to contribute to the fight?
It's not that you need to do massive damage it is that unless you are regularly getting your sneak attack off the gnomes riding dog is doing more damage then you are. At which point most parties would seriously consider replacing you with another riding dog.
Up until 8th level or so Feral Build will be your highest damaging and most effective build even with the 1 hr brew time between uses. After that TWF will give you more attacks and hence more chances to SA.
Shouldn't three attacks at full BAB still be better than four attacks at -2/-2/-7/-7, though? I guess TWF starts to be better as soon as you use two saps.
not really, three things you must remember at this point.
First, at this point you are doing +5D6 on every successful sneak attack so every extra chance to hit is worth up to 40 pts of damage.Second, weapons are a lot easier and cheaper to improve then natural attacks.
Third, DR is becoming an issue and it's much easier to get weapons that bypass it then making YOUR natural attacks do it.
edit: Also not knowing what AP or campaign you are playing makes it a bit difficult to really guide you, but since your coming out of Ustalav which means undead and Carrion Crown, let me give you 2 maybe useful bits of advice.
First: undead are immune to non-lethal damage so Sap master won't work at all. (actually several critters are immune so remember that)
Second: Play a changeling, they get permanent claws and use the adopted trait to get the half-orc bite. This way you always get your claw/claw/bite routine and your feral mutagen will simply make them BETTER.
Laslo, you have a very weird speech impediment. Or is it a dialect? I've been here in Ustalav for decades now, but I never heard such a thick dialect. You humans are funny with your language.
I'm thinking of a creepy "doctor of anatomy" who's been kicked off the medical academy of Lepidstadt in Ustalav.
How did that happen? Forget to pay your tuition fees? They are a bit anal about these. Or are you the guy who attacked the professor who failed him? Don't do that, seriously. If you do have the urge to attack someone, you can always enlist with the Gateguard and learn how to fence. I did, too. Didn't want to at first, but people kept asking me why I can't use a sword even though I'm an elf. After 30 years, that stuff gets annoying, and it's easier to spend some time for a decade or two learning how to fence.
And if you don't like the scar, as a doctor, you can always take care of it.
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You have the same issues all other lightly armored melee characters have. You have to wait till your opponent is occupied by someone else before you unleash death. You just have the advantage of blur and invisibility to make getting to that point easier.
OK, so I should probably spend the first round or so sneak attacking with archery, and then move in to deliver full rounds of tooth and claw as soon as the tank has tackled them? Luckily I don't need Quick Draw for that.
not really, three things you must remember at this point.
First, at this point you are doing +5D6 on every successful sneak attack so every extra chance to hit is worth up to 40 pts of damage.
Well, it's more like 20 damage on average, and only if I hit. As a fractional-BAB class, I don't expect to land a -7/-7 attack very often. It's basically fishing for 20s. Surely one attack at full BAB is more worthwhile than two at -7/-7?
Second, weapons are a lot easier and cheaper to improve then natural attacks.
But do you need to improve your natural attacks that much if they have a much higher attack bonus to begin with?
Third, DR is becoming an issue and it's much easier to get weapons that bypass it then making YOUR natural attacks do it.
Is DR really that ubiquitous in the usual adventure path level range? I guess 2WF is good to have for those special cases, but one could still use the natural attacks as one's mainstay.
Carrion Crown
Well, we haven't decided on a new campaign yet, since our current Kingmaker campaign is still going strong. Just brainstorming.
First: undead are immune to non-lethal damage so Sap master won't work at all. (actually several critters are immune so remember that)
True; sap master works with Merciful maces, though, which could be used against Undead in their non-merciful mode.
Play a changeling
I'm not aware of that player race, so I suspect it's not going to be allowed for the next campaign. ;o)
By the way, I'm now thinking of abandoning Finesse for a Str-based build that doesn't dump Dex. Basically, start with Str 16 and Dex 14 (or even Str 14 and Dex 16), and trust in the mutagen to raise my Str higher. Shift the non-Alchemist level to 3rd (so I can get the mutagen at 2nd), and replace the Fighter level by a Barbarian level. That gives me medium armor (breastplate), martial weapons, rage, and Fast Movement, all very welcome for that build. I'll lose a feat slot, but I need fewer feats for this build anyway.
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OK, so I should probably spend the first round or so sneak attacking with archery, and then move in to deliver full rounds of tooth and claw as soon as the tank has tackled them? Luckily I don't need Quick Draw for that.
You have the same issues all other lightly armored melee characters have. You have to wait till your opponent is occupied by someone else before you unleash death. You just have the advantage of blur and invisibility to make getting to that point easier.
In general your first round should be spent moving into position for flanking. Ready for the meatshield to go first then once they've engaged it move into flanking position and get ready to full attack.
Well, it's more like 20 damage on average, and only if I hit. As a fractional-BAB class, I don't expect to land a -7/-7 attack very often. It's basically fishing for 20s. Surely one attack at full BAB is more worthwhile than two at -7/-7?not really, three things you must remember at this point.
First, at this point you are doing +5D6 on every successful sneak attack so every extra chance to hit is worth up to 40 pts of damage.
Don't underestimate your chance to hit. You are technically an arcane caster so you have access to some amazing buffs making you more likely to hit then nearly any other medium bab class. Especially if you go the armor spike TWF route. Flanking + height + buff spells + aid another from your Tumor familiar + whatever else the party contributes should totally negate all those penalties giving that 4th attack a pretty decent chance of hitting.
Second, weapons are a lot easier and cheaper to improve then natural attacks.
But do you need to improve your natural attacks that much if they have a much higher attack bonus to begin with?
In a word, yes. enchantments for natural weapons have a hard cap at +5 (regular weapons cap at +10) and cost 2.5 times as much as an equivalent weapon enchant. It can be prohibitively expensive at most levels to do.
Third, DR is becoming an issue and it's much easier to get weapons that bypass it then making YOUR natural attacks do it.
Is DR really that ubiquitous in the usual adventure path level range? I guess 2WF is good to have for those special cases, but one could still use the natural attacks as one's mainstay.
For all the real fights in every AP I've seen, once you get past 8th level every important target has some degree of DR, and it only gets more common as you advance. Your natural weapons are great for mooks and thugs but any challenging encounter you should get ready to switch back to TWF, YOUR claws and teeth won't cut it.
Carrion Crown
Well, we haven't decided on a new campaign yet, since our current Kingmaker campaign is still going strong. Just brainstorming.
As I said, this advice varies on what AP you are planning.
First: undead are immune to non-lethal damage so Sap master won't work at all. (actually several critters are immune so remember that)
True; sap master works with Merciful maces, though, which could be used against Undead in their non-merciful mode.
Then you burned 2 of your very limited number of feats and can't use them. Situational just a point to remember when you are working on your build.
Play a changeling
I'm not aware of that player race, so I suspect it's not going to be allowed for the next campaign. ;o)
By the way, I'm now thinking of abandoning Finesse for a Str-based build that doesn't dump Dex. Basically, start with Str 16 and Dex 14 (or even Str 14 and Dex 16), and trust in the mutagen to raise my Str higher. Shift the non-Alchemist level to 3rd (so I can get the mutagen at 2nd), and replace the Fighter level by a Barbarian level. That gives me medium armor (breastplate), martial weapons, rage, and Fast Movement, all very welcome for that build. I'll lose a feat slot, but I need fewer feats for this build anyway.
It's the new player race introduced in carrion crown and most common in Ustalav. Strictly an optimization/flavor suggestion but if you're interested download the players guide for carrion crown (free download here) and take a look.
Barbarian can be nice, or you can just take Ragechemist to get the benefits of rage (that lasts, barbarian rage is level based and 1 level won't give you much) and use that feat you sacrificed to get you medium armor proficiency.
Which martial weapons would you actually want to use as a feral build?
It's up to you to choose whatever you want, my advice is strictly based on the concept you started with and the Barbarian seems kind of the opposite of what you described.
Up to you though.
In a word, yes. enchantments for natural weapons have a hard cap at +5 (regular weapons cap at +10) and cost 2.5 times as much as an equivalent weapon enchant. It can be prohibitively expensive at most levels to do.
I don't remember ever seeing more than a +3 (or maybe +4?) on a weapon in Legacy of Fire, so such concerns seem rather academic to me. The Amulet of Mighty Fists may cost 2.5 times as much as a weapon, but you do need 2 weapons for TWF...
I do see the point on damage reduction. Align Weapon, Silversheen etc. don't work on natural weapons?
It's the new player race introduced in carrion crown and most common in Ustalav. Strictly an optimization/flavor suggestion but if you're interested download the players guide for carrion crown (free download here) and take a look.
Changeling does sound interesting, I'll give it a look.
or you can just take Ragechemist to get the benefits of rage
Isn't that the kind of Alchemist who goes crazier each time someone hits him? Not something I'd like to play.
It's up to you to choose whatever you want, my advice is strictly based on the concept you started with and the Barbarian seems kind of the opposite of what you described.
I guess from a flavor perspective, I would indeed prefer a Dex-based character rather than a rager. It seems very difficult to pull off a Dex-based character who doesn't suck badly at low levels, though. The Dervish Dance approach seemed to fix that, but I see it's going to go obsolete fast.
Do you think that a Str 12, Dex 18 character with Finesse and TWF is competitive with the Strength-based approach? How would you build it?
I could leave out the level of Cad (or Barbarian) entirely; the martial weapon proficiency was mainly needed for the sap, though the armor, feat slot, and especially the skills are useful. Without the Cad level, an Alchemist might get access to Stealth from a trait, but he will never have Acrobatics. Seems like a waste. (Then again, lacking that +3 to the skill might be less of a waste than retarding the SA and spell progression?)
As for the sap, the feat adds +2 per sneak attack die... assuming Improved TWF and SA +5d6 at level 10th, that's a potential +40 damage per round! And in the special (but not unobtainable, especially with Invisibility) case of a flatfooted enemy, Sap Master adds another +70 damage. That's +110 damage per round from two feats! Sure, I'd need a set of backup weapons when I'm facing an immune enemy, but what's a point or two of missing enhancement bonus against such numbers...?
Food for thought: Beastmorph Vivisectionist. Grants access to Rake and Pounch eventually, as well as grab/constrict. And you have Greater Invis as an extract by then too...
Very nice indeed. My DM probably wouldn't be too fond of the Bottled Ally feature anyway, because it adds clutter to the battle map (we're playing over Skype and TeamViewer). This gives me darkvision or scent at 3rd level, a fly speed at 6th, pounce and trip at 10th...
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In a word, yes. enchantments for natural weapons have a hard cap at +5 (regular weapons cap at +10) and cost 2.5 times as much as an equivalent weapon enchant. It can be prohibitively expensive at most levels to do.I don't remember ever seeing more than a +3 (or maybe +4?) on a weapon in Legacy of Fire, so such concerns seem rather academic to me. The Amulet of Mighty Fists may cost 2.5 times as much as a weapon, but you do need 2 weapons for TWF...
I do see the point on damage reduction. Align Weapon, Silversheen etc. don't work on natural weapons?
It becomes a real issue when you are worrying about the WBL guidelines but it's actually most important at the low end, the +1/+2 range.
remember the biggest perk of AoMF is that you don't need the +1 before adding that bonus. On the other hand you aren't getting that +1 to hit so everyone else's to-hit bonus will wind up being much higher and you can't bypass any Damage reduction types with your primary weapons now.Those options to get past an opponents DR work but require 3 rounds in the middle of combat to apply (each only affects a single weapon and takes a standard action to apply = 3 rounds of useless), and at this level of the game you're starting to play rocket-tag so most fights last at most 2-4 rounds.
It's the new player race introduced in carrion crown and most common in Ustalav. Strictly an optimization/flavor suggestion but if you're interested download the players guide for carrion crown (free download here) and take a look.Changeling does sound interesting, I'll give it a look.
or you can just take Ragechemist to get the benefits of rageIsn't that the kind of Alchemist who goes crazier each time someone hits him? Not something I'd like to play.
It's up to you to choose whatever you want, my advice is strictly based on the concept you started with and the Barbarian seems kind of the opposite of what you described.I guess from a flavor perspective, I would indeed prefer a Dex-based character rather than a rager. It seems very difficult to pull off a Dex-based character who doesn't suck badly at low levels, though. The Dervish Dance approach seemed to fix that, but I see it's going to go obsolete fast.
Do you think that a Str 12, Dex 18 character with Finesse and TWF is competitive with the Strength-based approach? How would you build it?
I could leave out the level of Cad (or Barbarian) entirely; the martial weapon proficiency was mainly needed for the sap, though the armor, feat slot, and especially the skills are useful. Without the Cad level, an Alchemist might get access to Stealth from a trait, but he will never have Acrobatics. Seems like a waste. (Then...
Finesse based characters rarely match Strength based toons in the hit and damage race. It costs too many resources (feats/cash/magic) to reliably convert Dex into real damage so those builds are always 3-4 levels behind the Strength guys on average damage done. Now their survivability tends to be better as is their OOC roles but if you want to be a monster on the combat field you need to be strength based.
However if you don't want to dominate the dpr race and are fine with doing OK damage then any of the finesse builds will be fine. You'll probably be on mop-up, assist duty but that's not a bad place to be.Just focus on the basics: Flanking, Combat Maneuvers and Buff/Debuff and you'll do fine.
As for the level dips only do that for unique abilities you want from another class (like spell casting, armor training, etc). Everything else can be gotten with a feat or a little cash.
The difference between an class skill and a non-class skill is only 3 ranks. Means very little at mid to high levels (and you can take a trait or skill focus to remove that difference) so don't let that be a restriction for you.
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OK, how about this:
- Use claw/claw/bite as the mainstay attack until mid levels.
- Use Amulets of Mighty Fists to boost damage of all attacks. Maybe get
a Shock amulet first, and then later a Merciful Amulet with which to use Sap Adept and Sap Master.
- Get 2WF and Improved Unarmed Strike so I can use the combo even without the mutagen.
- Get a pair of silver knuckles and cold iron knuckles with which to change the damage type of the claws.
- When Improved 2WF comes up, switch to using knuckles as the mainstay attack. That will give me a -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 routine (including the bite), and I can have a +1 to hit with the first 4 attacks from masterwork knuckles.
The feat progression would be something like this:
01 Finesse
HB 2WF
03 Arcane Strike
05 Improved Unarmed Attack
07 Sap Adept
09 Improved 2WF
11 Sap Master
I figure it's not worth getting Sap Adept earlier than level 7th, since I have to afford a Merciful Amulet of Mighty Fists before I can use it.
If I can count on being mutated in almost every single fight, though, I could drop Improved Unarmed Attack. What's your experience there?
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Damn, looks like brass knuckles have been errata'ed into weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Pity. :(
Copied from the brass knuckle thread:
I guess my Vivisectionist should forget about Improved Unarmed Strike, then. He could just have a Merciful Amulet and go for a +0/+0/+0 claw/claw/bite routine with Sap Adept and Sap Master where applicable, and use weapons with 2WF for -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 (weapon x 4/bite) otherwise. The weapons would at least have a +1 to hit on top of that for being masterwork.
Sap Adept makes sneak attacks 1.6 times as powerful, so the lesser number of attacks should be compensated (and with a higher probability to hit, on top of that). And if I get Sap Master off, I do 2.6 times the normal sneak attack damage. If I win initiative while under Greater Invisibility, that's gotta be an instant kill.
Another alternative to amulet of mighty fists is a potion of greater magic fang, combined with the enchance potion discovery and alchemical allocation. Do note that enchance potion helps you make the most out of nap stack, life bubble and heroism.
Also you might consider that sticking to the feral mutagen route saves you from having to pick the 3 twf feats. (which could be used to pick some neat discoveries instead).
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Damn, looks like brass knuckles have been errata'ed into weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Pity. :(
Copied from the brass knuckle thread:
I guess my Vivisectionist should forget about Improved Unarmed Strike, then. He could just have a Merciful Amulet and go for a +0/+0/+0 claw/claw/bite routine with Sap Adept and Sap Master where applicable, and use weapons with 2WF for -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 (weapon x 4/bite) otherwise. The weapons would at least have a +1 to hit on top of that for being masterwork.
Sap Adept makes sneak attacks 1.6 times as powerful, so the lesser number of attacks should be compensated (and with a higher probability to hit, on top of that). And if I get Sap Master off, I do 2.6 times the normal sneak attack damage. If I win initiative while under Greater Invisibility, that's gotta be an instant kill.
Only problem with that is Claws are slashing weapons and Bite is piercing. The sap master tree requires you to use a bludgeoning weapon.
You need to decide whether you want the natural attacks or the sap master tree. You don't have the feats to use them both together.
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Only problem with that is Claws are slashing weapons and Bite is piercing. The sap master tree requires you to use a bludgeoning weapon.
Actually, bites do P/B/S, and claws do B/S:
You need to decide whether you want the natural attacks or the sap master tree. You don't have the feats to use them both together.
What's wrong with the feat progression I posted above?
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Only problem with that is Claws are slashing weapons and Bite is piercing. The sap master tree requires you to use a bludgeoning weapon.Actually, bites do P/B/S, and claws do B/S:
You need to decide whether you want the natural attacks or the sap master tree. You don't have the feats to use them both together.What's wrong with the feat progression I posted above?
Derp, I was looking at the wrong natural attack listing, forget what I said about that.
As for your feat progression;
Well first you don't qualify for arcane strike (alchemists aren't actually casters so you can't have it) and you said nevermind to the IUS.
Really the issue is you are burning all your feats (ALL of them) to enhance your TWF but you aren't using TWF before 9th level. You pretty much threw away all your feats for 70% of the characters life.
You might want to rebuild that feat progression and try again.
Add to that your entire backstory is as the mad scientist hungry for knowledge but the character you built is strictly a brute clawing and biting his way to 8th level. Functional yes but...
@John John, the greater magic fang route is nice but it doesn't solve the DR problem. GMF specifically states it doesn't count for DR penetration. Also using Alchemical Allocation will eat up ALL his 2nd level spell slots every day for that buff (remember it only lasts 1 round so takes 3 rnds to enhance the claw/claw/bite)
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Hi all,
I've actually got a Vivisectionist in a Serpent Skull campaign right now, we just hit 9th lvl.
Str:20 (+2belt) 24 with mutagen
Dex:12
Con:14
Int:16
Wis:10
Cha:8
I've been using the c/c/b routine pretty exclusively for some time now and I'm doing pretty decent dmg without the TWF feat chain. What I've chosen to do is actually take Improved Nat Attack to boost the dmg of the attacks I do have so the claws become d8s and the bite becomes 2d6. Which isn't impressive until you enlarge and bite becomes 3d6 and the bites become 2d6. I'm also planning on taking the Master Chymist prestige class which will bump all the dmg another size and bite becomes 4d6 and each claw 3d6. I'm actually considering taking Vital Strike with this character.
Yes, this way nets you less attacks, thus less chance for sneak attack but you have a better chance to hit with each attack, which is good in a 3/4 bab build, and each hit does more dmg outside of sneak attack.
You also may want to reconsider your discoveries. I've found the Infusion discovery to be incredibly useful and Combine Extracts is incredibly useful in getting a self-buffer up and running sooner. Shield and Expeditous retreat in 1 extract is a beutiful thing.
1 more thing to consider, with saping folk left and right you'll be left with unconscous enemies left and right. What will you be doing with them when the fight is over?
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As for your feat progression;
Well first you don't qualify for arcane strike (alchemists aren't actually casters so you can't have it)
Ach, I hadn't thought of that. Sad but true.
Really the issue is you are burning all your feats (ALL of them) to enhance your TWF but you aren't using TWF before 9th level. You pretty much threw away all your feats for 70% of the characters life.
You might want to rebuild that feat progression and try again.
Good point, though I disagree with the "all of them" part. Finesse and Arcane Strike would have been useful to the natural attacks as well, and I might have used TWF with Sap Adept already at level 7th.
Add to that your entire backstory is as the mad scientist hungry for knowledge but the character you built is strictly a brute clawing and biting his way to 8th level. Functional yes but...
Well, the clawing and biting would still fit the backstory. He uses his knowledge of anatomy to give himself a "combat anatomy" as well as to identify pressure points on enemies that knock them out cold.
So what do you suggest? Focus on TWF and the sap tree right from the start? Should I even drop the Feral Mutagen, since it would only give me a bite at -7? (I guess more attacks are always better, though?)
How would you make a natural weapons build tick?
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Hi all,
I've actually got a Vivisectionist in a Serpent Skull campaign right now, we just hit 9th lvl.
Str:20 (+2belt) 24 with mutagen
Dex:12
Con:14
Int:16
Wis:10
Cha:8
Ah, a Strength build. I'm sure that works well, it's probably the optimized solution. Doesn't quite fit my theme, though...
Are you wearing armor?
Yes, this way nets you less attacks, thus less chance for sneak attack but you have a better chance to hit with each attack, which is good in a 3/4 bab build, and each hit does more dmg outside of sneak attack.
I like the idea of three rock-solid attacks over a flurry of inaccurate ones.
What do you do about damage reduction, though? Just power through it with your damage?
You also may want to reconsider your discoveries. I've found the Infusion discovery to be incredibly useful and Combine Extracts is incredibly useful in getting a self-buffer up and running sooner. Shield and Expeditous retreat in 1 extract is a beutiful thing.
Yes, Infusion sounds useful, I guess everybody is going to want a Shield from me. :P Shield & Expeditious Retreat sounds great, as does Shield & Enlarge. That same spell slot could give me Thorn Skin, though, which sounds pretty damn sweet.
1 more thing to consider, with saping folk left and right you'll be left with unconscous enemies left and right. What will you be doing with them when the fight is over?
Anatomy lessons. >:D
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Actually, the Feral Mutagen gives you the bite and claws at full BaB as they are all primary attacks :-)
Yeah, but if you use TWF, all remaining natural attacks become secondaries.
@ ShadowcatX: Interesting thought... So TWF with unarmed strikes and claw/claw/bite could give you -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 even at level 2nd? That just feels wrong... and it's questionable whether one's claws would be considered unused after an unarmed TWF routine.
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I am wearing armor, right now I've got +1 chain shirt.
I am rocking a strength build but I think a dex build using finesse would work just as well as, I believe, finesse works with natural weapons. You would just not get bonus dmg from str but your ac and init would be higher.
Although... in, I think, the Pathfinder Society Field guide there is a +1 enhancement that adds Dex dmg to a weapon that is finessable which would be killer with a dex-based nat weapon user! This option didn't exist when I was planning my current build. EDIT: The weapon property can be added to an Amulet of MF without 1st needing a +1 on it ;-)
Something to keep in mind about extracts, they aren't your bread and butter in the same way that spells are for a Wiz or Sorc. They are there too support. I have Thorn Skin in my book but have found the shield & enlarge or shield & E. retreat to actually be more useful. Especially when I hand it to the party barbarian ;-)
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Quick note here, I'm not going for an optimal DPR build. I'd rather do "good" damage and keep flavor and versatility instead. Also, I don't want to piss off the DM. ;o)
Although... in, I think, the Pathfinder Society Field guide there is a +1 enhancement that adds Dex dmg to a weapon that is finessable which would be killer with a dex-based nat weapon user! This option didn't exist when I was planning my current build. EDIT: The weapon property can be added to an Amulet of MF without 1st needing a +1 on it ;-)
Wow! What's it called? Is it on PFSRD?
Something to keep in mind about extracts, they aren't your bread and butter in the same way that spells are for a Wiz or Sorc. They are there too support. I have Thorn Skin in my book but have found the shield & enlarge or shield & E. retreat to actually be more useful. Especially when I hand it to the party barbarian ;-)
That sounds pretty cool, actually. I could see myself as a party buffer when I'm not knocking out people.
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Yeah, playing the party buffer is fun :-) It really boosts action economy and getting to pass out self-only buffs to folks that don't normally get them is fun :-)
A shielded Barb with False Life running is a sight to behold :-)
Unfortunatly I don't remember the name and I can't look it up right now cause I'm at work.
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Although... in, I think, the Pathfinder Society Field guide there is a +1 enhancement that adds Dex dmg to a weapon that is finessable which would be killer with a dex-based nat weapon user! This option didn't exist when I was planning my current build. EDIT: The weapon property can be added to an Amulet of MF without 1st needing a +1 on it ;-)Wow! What's it called? Is it on PFSRD?
Its called Agile, and I do not believe it is on the PFSRD yet.
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Actually, the Feral Mutagen gives you the bite and claws at full BaB as they are all primary attacks :-)Yeah, but if you use TWF, all remaining natural attacks become secondaries.
@ ShadowcatX: Interesting thought... So TWF with unarmed strikes and claw/claw/bite could give you -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 even at level 2nd? That just feels wrong... and it's questionable whether one's claws would be considered unused after an unarmed TWF routine.
You could do that, yes, but at that point you're a dex based build without weapon finesse (unless you take a level of fighter at 2nd level) so you're going to have a very difficult time hitting. Getting multi-attack and weapon finesse (possible by third level) should reduce that to -2, -2, -4, -4, -4, but I still think its too many negatives to be worth it when at the cost of a single attack you can be +0, -2, -2, -2 and be a feat up on the deal.
As for using the claws, its not questionable at all. IUS allows you to use any part of your body to attack. Imagine a quick elbow that leads into a claw attack, or a headbutt following a bite, or a kick that leads into pretty much anything.
This actually doesn't work. You can't TWF with unarmed strikes, your whole body is considered a single weapon so no TWF for you.
You would be restricted to your regular melee attacks (at 1D3+str) with the natural attacks at -5.
The other reason you don't want to do that is your natural attacks become secondary attacks so not only do they get a -5 to hit they also only get half damage from strength and power attack. This route puts your damage AND hit chance in the toilet.
Finally Alchemists don't actually qualify for multi-attack so he'll be stuck with the -5 to hit. (You must personally have 3 natural attacks not get them from a spell-like effect or item which is what Alchemists have).
Yes it sucks but that's RAW for you.
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So I have to admit this is an awesome thread. I was literaly looking at a similar vivectionist/perservationist build as we for PFS. I'm looking at the build slightly differently though. I was thinking this build would be great for a switch hitter. My suggestion would be 2nd Gunslinger (Gun Tank archtype). Get yourself a Musket-Ax or Musket Hammer. First round of combat or surprise round, flatfooted touch sneak attack with in 30 ft, shift grip from two-hand musket use to one handed melee use (free action), swift action draw quickdraw shield and next round I'm ready to charge into battle. I won't have as many attacks per round, but Gun Tank gets shields (including tower shields) and heavy armor, so I don't have to worry so much about my squishy insides as much. Big advatage of the build besides sneak attack would be alchemical bullets. I'd recomend the blunderbuss at first level for the gunslinger as you be able to use items like tangle shot & be able to have an area attack to deal with swarms, since your giving up bombs. Expeditious retreat will alliviate the lumbering speed penalty of the heavy armor and allow for the repositioning needed to get off more sneak attacks every turn. For a nice touch, if in the middle of a fight I find I can't reach an opponent, swift action sheath the quickdraw shield, move action load an alchemical cartridge, standard action fire. The only downside is the penalties to stealh in heavy armor, but there are armor enchantments that help with this, as does mithril eventually and ofcourse invisibility extracts too. But hey, these are just my two cents, I still like a lot of the other ideas floating around up here.
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So I have to admit this is an awesome thread. I was literaly looking at a similar vivectionist/perservationist build as we for PFS. I'm looking at the build slightly differently though. I was thinking this build would be great for a switch hitter. My suggestion would be 2nd Gunslinger (Gun Tank archtype). Get yourself a Musket-Ax or Musket Hammer. First round of combat or surprise round, flatfooted touch sneak attack with in 30 ft, shift grip from two-hand musket use to one handed melee use (free action), swift action draw quickdraw shield and next round I'm ready to charge into battle. I won't have as many attacks per round, but Gun Tank gets shields (including tower shields) and heavy armor, so I don't have to worry so much about my squishy insides as much. Big advatage of the build besides sneak attack would be alchemical bullets. I'd recomend the blunderbuss at first level for the gunslinger as you be able to use items like tangle shot & be able to have an area attack to deal with swarms, since your giving up bombs. Expeditious retreat will alliviate the lumbering speed penalty of the heavy armor and allow for the repositioning needed to get off more sneak attacks every turn. For a nice touch, if in the middle of a fight I find I can't reach an opponent, swift action sheath the quickdraw shield, move action load an alchemical cartridge, standard action fire. The only downside is the penalties to stealh in heavy armor, but there are armor enchantments that help with this, as does mithril eventually and ofcourse invisibility extracts too. But hey, these are just my two cents, I still like a lot of the other ideas floating around up here.
Wow! That's a fantastic idea! I'm currently exploring the options that a lvl or 2 of GS can open up as well and maybe tonight I'm going to stat up a GS/ Wiz(SpellSlinger)/Eldritch knight cause I think that could be a force to reconned with as well.
But I guess that's a little off-topic.
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This actually doesn't work. You can't TWF with unarmed strikes, your whole body is considered a single weapon so no TWF for you.
Reference?
So when you put on two different gauntlets, you still can't TWF with them?
I just bought the Field Guide, and yes, I do like the Agile enhancement a lot. It seems like a great deal for an Amulet of Mighty Fists. If I'm not going to go down the sap route, it's going to be the best damage-dealing boost.
It seems a pity to let go of the sap feats, but I figure I can only make them work properly around level 5 or so, when I can get a Merciful Amulet. That seems like a big investment.
What feat progression would you guys suggest, then? I'd suddenly have a lot of spare slots to fill without the saps.
1 Finesse
H
3
5
7 TWF
9 Improved TWF
...?
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OK, how about this, then? I realize it's not optimized; I'm happy if it's not gimped. I'm happy to hear suggestions, though.
1 Finesse
H Hermean Blood (Acrobatics and Stealth as class skills)
3 Toughness
5 Improved Initiative
7 TWF
9 Improved TWF
I figure I'll use an Agile amulet as my mainstay (Dex to damage rather than Str should be great with the Dex I'm going to have, and it's 5000 gp for all my natural attacks).
I was thinking about the sap feats for levels 11–13, but I'm not so sure about that. Sap Adept will give me a +12 bonus on each sneak attack at level 11, but I'll have to give up the Dex bonus from the Agile Amulet, which will also be on the order of 7–8 around then. Given the drawbacks (I need a Merciful Amulet, and only do nonlethal damage), it's probably not worth it. On the other hand, Sap Master kicks all sorts of behinds at level 13 (14d6 + 14 sneak attack damage per hit!), although it remains situational.
Do you have other suggestions on what I might want to do with my feats after level 11th? Or before that, for that matter?
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I guess I should fit in Iron Will somewhere, maybe for Toughness. Though given how bad the save is going to be (especially with the -2 Wis from the Dex mutagen), even with the feat, I'm wondering whether it's worth it.
Wow, Dex builds are a lot of work. I do envy the Str builds a bit, who get all that damage for free. If only they weren't so clunky and slow...
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This actually doesn't work. You can't TWF with unarmed strikes, your whole body is considered a single weapon so no TWF for you.Reference?
So when you put on two different gauntlets, you still can't TWF with them?
I just bought the Field Guide, and yes, I do like the Agile enhancement a lot. It seems like a great deal for an Amulet of Mighty Fists. If I'm not going to go down the sap route, it's going to be the best damage-dealing boost.
It seems a pity to let go of the sap feats, but I figure I can only make them work properly around level 5 or so, when I can get a Merciful Amulet. That seems like a big investment.
What feat progression would you guys suggest, then? I'd suddenly have a lot of spare slots to fill without the saps.
1 Finesse
H
3
5
7 TWF
9 Improved TWF...?
Gauntlets are a different boat, they are considered manufactured weapons and can be used for TWF. They restrict you into using those specific items for damage, unlike Unarmed strikes which use your whole body as a single weapon.
As for dex builds instead of strength builds... well it can be done but it's going to take all your feats and most of your focus. Doable but really takes forever to come together and unless you have the points available you can't get Power attack which is a MASSIVE boost to your damage.
(piranha strike is ok but it just has that feat tax on it.)
The real issue is
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Gauntlets are a different boat, they are considered manufactured weapons and can be used for TWF. They restrict you into using those specific items for damage, unlike Unarmed strikes which use your whole body as a single weapon.
But they do count as unarmed strikes for all purposes, according to the PFSRD.
As for dex builds instead of strength builds... well it can be done but it's going to take all your feats and most of your focus. Doable but really takes forever to come together and unless you have the points available you can't get Power attack which is a MASSIVE boost to your damage.
Why does it take forever to come together? I get three primary attacks with Finesse and sneak attack at level 2, isn't that already more than what characters usually put out at that level? What else would I need?
Sure, it costs me 5000 gp to add Dex to damage rather than Str, which is an equipment tax, I guess, but then I get the other manifold benefits of high Dex "for free" in the meantime. I like having a high AC, and high Initiative is also great for a sneak attacker. Then there's Acrobatics, Stealth, Disable Device, unencumbered speed...
(piranha strike is ok but it just has that feat tax on it.)
Is it usually worth using Piranha Strike for me? I would expect that a sneak attacker would prefer accuracy over a few points of extra damage, but I guess I'm in the privileged situation of having three primary attacks and a higher Dex than any other PC, so it might be worthwhile. Also, I guess Piranha Strike would be very helpful where sneak attack is unavailable.
Ah, things are coming together. :) How about this:
Trait 1: Highlander (Stealth as a class skill). Laslo was born in the Ustalavic hinterlands, where not drawing attention is a treasured virtue.
Trait 2: Captain's Blade (Acrobatics as a class skill). After... "leaving"... the medical academy of Lepidstadt rather... "unceremoniously" and in a hurry, Laslo felt it was prudent to spent a few years away from the homeland. As it turns out, Andoren privateers have use for physicians onboard their vessels, even if they might still be waiting for the... "final approval"... of their doctor's title.
Feats 1, H, 3: Finesse, Improved Initiative, Piranha Strike. Although Laslo does not officially bear arms, he is uncannily handy with that large scalpel and that... "reflex hammer"... he keeps around. At sea with pirate-hunting Andoren privateers, he got many "fresh specimens" of victims of the fierce and deadly fighting style of Sargavan pirates, which he studied in great detail. Should he be forced to fight, no doubt he would know exactly where to strike to make every cut count.
I think that paints a coherent story (more so than the "Hermean Blood" feat).
01 Finesse, Improved Initiative
02 Feral Mutagen
03 Piranha Strike
04 Infusion
05 Iron Will
06 Spontaneous Healing
07 Combat Reflexes
08 Lingering Spirit
09 Sap Adept
10 Extend Potion
11 Sap Master
12 Greater Mutagen
I figure by the time I go for the sap feats, I will be able to afford an Agile and Merciful Amulet of Mighty Fists. Even if I'm just stuck with the Agile one, I can just take a -4 to attacks to do nonlethal damage. This might seem like a steep price to pay, but consider that at 10th level, I'll have Pounce from Greater Beastmorph Mutagen. So in the surprise round, I will take a reduced charge at whoever is still flat-footed, and tear them apart with three attacks doing 2.6 times normal sneak attack damage each. Even a -4 penalty should be fine, given I get +2 from the charge, and the enemy is flatfooted. If I'm the ambusher rather than the ambushee, I even have a high chance (with something like a +12 Initiative modifier) to make another full attack at 2.6 times normal sneak attack a round later, when the enemy is still flatfooted.
Sounds like fun. >:)
Yes, I am spending all of my feats on fighting, but what else would I do with those feat slots...? I'm open for suggestions.
The real issue is
Argh! Cliffhanger! ;)
Yeah the agile enchantment changes everything:P.
A would prefer a strength build for the vivisectionist before, but now going dex is the best way to roll.
Regarding TWF vs Feral Mutagen I think both have the merits. In the end it ends to:
Spent 3 extra feats to get a +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 full attack and gold to get the two magic weapons(that can penetrate damage reduction)
VS
Spent 1 discovery, to get a +15/+15/+15 full attack and another discovery (enchance potion, which helps with a bunch of buffs)plus a few gold to get a a potion of greater magic fang. You also have to spent 3 slots to alchemical allocation.
(Do note though that at low levels you could use greater magic fang to enchant all natural weapon with a +1, in order to save some 2nd level slots.
You could also purchace a higher caster level greater magic fang potion, which would still be much cheaper than enchanting two weapons, and avoid picking enchance potion.)
So to sum up the first route is more effective DPS wise, but also costs more feat and gold wise. (And saves you from spending slots to alchemical allocation).
Alsoif the agile enchantment wasn't allowed a Str focused Feral Mutagen Vivisectionist would be propably superior to a dex focused twf vivisectionist.
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Gauntlets are a different boat, they are considered manufactured weapons and can be used for TWF. They restrict you into using those specific items for damage, unlike Unarmed strikes which use your whole body as a single weapon.But they do count as unarmed strikes for all purposes, according to the PFSRD.
Blargh, Spiked Gauntlets is what I meant to type (No more posting to forums with a smartphone) and is considered a regular melee weapon.
Regular gauntlets just convert your unarmed damage from non-lethal to lethal and is considered to be a normal unarmed strike (for provoking AoO's, feats, etc.)As for dex builds instead of strength builds... well it can be done but it's going to take all your feats and most of your focus. Doable but really takes forever to come together and unless you have the points available you can't get Power attack which is a MASSIVE boost to your damage.
Why does it take forever to come together? I get three primary attacks with Finesse and sneak attack at level 2, isn't that already more than what characters usually put out at that level? What else would I need?
Sure, it costs me 5000 gp to add Dex to damage rather than Str, which is an equipment tax, I guess, but then I get the other manifold benefits of high Dex "for free" in the meantime. I like having a high AC, and high Initiative is also great for a sneak attacker. Then there's Acrobatics, Stealth, Disable Device, unencumbered speed...
(piranha strike is ok but it just has that feat tax on it.)Is it usually worth using Piranha Strike for me? I would expect that a sneak attacker would prefer accuracy over a few points of extra damage, but I guess I'm in the privileged situation of having three primary attacks and a higher Dex than any other PC, so it might be worthwhile. Also, I guess Piranha Strike would be very helpful where sneak attack is unavailable.
It's considered a Feat tax in that you HAVE to take weapon finesse to get your Dex added to your hit chance, you then have to get a specific magical Item to get it added to your damage and after that you are still restricted to a very small sub-set of weapons you can actually do decent damage with. You won't be able to actually do what you are trying to do before 4th level at the earliest. In comparison Strength builds are doing this from 1st level.
Yes, you do get 3 primary attacks at full BaB, but only once per 2 hours. Remember you can only pop the feral trick for a few minutes and then you have to brew a new mutagen, which if your party doesn't want to stand still for you to take an hour to brew another one you'll have to do it on the move so it now takes 2 hours to make a new mutagen. During that 2 hours downtime you are restricted to your dagger and/or hammer, which don't get your dex added to the damage and you don't have a strength Mod to add to as normal.
As for Pirannha strike, yes it is vital for the build you have presented. Remember when you're not using your feral mutagen your normal weapons don't get the benefit of your agile enchant. Those attacks will be limited to base damage (1D4 or 1D6), Pirannha strike at least lets you do double digit damage with them (sometimes).
Here's the 3 issues you're going to be dealing with here;
First: Sneak Attacks are not easy to pull off. You only get them during the surprise round, when flanking and if you make your opponent flat footed.
YOUR surprise round will be spent quaffing your mutagen, Flanks can be defeated with a 5 foot step and improved feint costs a feat you don't have available to spend. Don't expect to rely on them very often.
Second: Your regular non feral damage is going to be VERY low since you burned all your cash (from WBL) and most of your feats enhancing your feral damage which you can only rely on for at MOST 20 minutes in every 2 hours.
Unless you are in a 15 minute per day campaign, 80% of your time you will be doing 1D6 damage every round (if you use your hammer instead of your scalpel).
Third: you've burned everything on increasing your Feral Damage so you don't have any room for any item creation or metamagic feats so you can't customize or improve any of your extracts or gear. You've made all your casting abilities as weak as possible (forgotten mostly) and that is more than half this classes power.
What you've done is built a Nova toon. Once or twice a day you can take 2-3 rounds to prep a massive attack combo and do an insane amount of damage but in exchange you will need your party to carry you through the rest of the fights. You've got a boss killer build but you won't be able to get past the trash mobs on the way there (WoW speak I know but it fits).
@John John, I disagree with your Dex vs. Str concept. The dex build takes longer to put together (4th level instead of 1st) costs more resources to do, is limited to much fewer weapon/armor combo's and negatively affects their casting ability (more stats to focus on means lower Int and fewer and lower level spell slots available)
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Just a quick note: Mutagen lasts for 10 minutes/level. That means it will usually be enough for an "adventurer's workday", and if the dungeon does drag on longer than that, an hour to brew a new mutagen is not that much to ask for. I guess I should also branch into Master Chymist at 11th level to give me access to the mutation independent of the mutagen. Considering that, I think it's a fair assumption that I will be under the effect of the mutagen in almost every fight.
As for the flanking, it's not going to be more difficult for me than for any melee Rogue (in fact, it will be easier). I'm under the impression that Rogues are considered a valid playing style.
What spellcasting feats do you think I will be missing? I intend to use my spells mostly for things like Shield, Alchemical Allocation, Invisibility, Thorn Skin, and Greater Invisibility, and I think those things should work well right out of the box.
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Just a quick note: Mutagen lasts for 10 minutes/level. That means it will usually be enough for an "adventurer's workday", and if the dungeon does drag on longer than that, an hour to brew a new mutagen is not that much to ask for. I guess I should also branch into Master Chymist at 11th level to give me access to the mutation independent of the mutagen. Considering that, I think it's a fair assumption that I will be under the effect of the mutagen in almost every fight.
As for the flanking, it's not going to be more difficult for me than for any melee Rogue (in fact, it will be easier). I'm under the impression that Rogues are considered a valid playing style.
What spellcasting feats do you think I will be missing? I intend to use my spells mostly for things like Shield, Alchemical Allocation, Invisibility, Thorn Skin, and Greater Invisibility, and I think those things should work well right out of the box.
Hmm, I thought it was at 1 minute per level, must have missed a zero on that entry, doesn't really change my argument much however.
Let's look at the simple details at a normal adventuring level, 6th level and a regular adventure (random Dungeon Crawl).
A typical adventuring day is about 8 hours (give or take) so for your first encounter of that day you are fine and you have a mutagen going for the next 60 minutes. You can't brew another mutagen until this one wears off (if you try this one immediately goes inert).
You and your party continue for the next hour and your mutagen finally wears off, unless your party decides to stop so you can brew another one you'll have to make it on the go which doubles your crafting time to 2 hours.
Now you are 1 hour into the dungeon and you 7 hours worth of adventuring time left, you're giving up 1-2 hours of that time brewing your new mutagen where you are limited to just weapon damage.
Best case scenario you are at full strength 50% of the time (one hour up 1 down) but more likely you will be at 33% power (1 hour up, 2 hours down).
(As for the rogue comment take a look around the forums about how everyone is showing just how under-powered the rogue, how hard it is to stealth and you'll see how hard it is to regularly get a sneak attack off)
As for Metamagic, biggest and best is Extend followed by Echoing or Maximize and the ever loved quickened when you can get it.
As M.A.D as the melee focused Alchemist is I don't expect you to have much in Int for extra spell slots so anything to make your existing extracts last longer or give bigger bonuses is well worth it (especially at higher levels).
End of the day it's up to you, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and showing you the weaknesses in your build. Depending on how rigidly your DM enforces RAW it may not even be an issue.
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Also, I'm not sure what you mean about not getting to do what I'd like to do until level 4th.
Even at level 1st, I can use my mutagen to get a Str bonus of +3. I could swing a "reflex hammer" two-handed for +3 (1d8+4 = 8.5), or +5 (1d8+1d6+4 = 12) when flanking. Or I could add the mutagen bonus to Dex for a +5 (1d6+1 = 4.5) or +7 to hit when flanking (1d6+1d6+1 = 8) and an AC of 20. At 1st level, that makes me pretty damn invulnerable, while 4.5 damage is still enough to kill goblins. It also gives me an Acrobatics check of +9 with which to get into flanking easily.
At 2nd level, all those damage numbers triple. An average of 25.5 damage even without sneak attack will make even Barbarians jealous.
At 3rd level, I get Piranha Strike, which will give me a +6/+6/+6 routine for (3 x 1d6+1+2 = 19.5)even with the Dex mutagen, or +8/+8/+8 (3 x 1d6+1+2+2d6 = 30.5) when flanking.
All of this is well compatible with the concept of a dexterous anatomist.
EDIT: Oh, new post, I'll reply to it later.
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Just a quick note: Mutagen lasts for 10 minutes/level. That means it will usually be enough for an "adventurer's workday", and if the dungeon does drag on longer than that, an hour to brew a new mutagen is not that much to ask for. I guess I should also branch into Master Chymist at 11th level to give me access to the mutation independent of the mutagen. Considering that, I think it's a fair assumption that I will be under the effect of the mutagen in almost every fight.
As for the flanking, it's not going to be more difficult for me than for any melee Rogue (in fact, it will be easier). I'm under the impression that Rogues are considered a valid playing style.
What spellcasting feats do you think I will be missing? I intend to use my spells mostly for things like Shield, Alchemical Allocation, Invisibility, Thorn Skin, and Greater Invisibility, and I think those things should work well right out of the box.
Hmm, I thought it was at 1 minute per level, must have missed a zero on that entry, doesn't really change my argument much however.
Let's look at the simple details at a normal adventuring level, 6th level and a regular adventure (random Dungeon Crawl).
A typical adventuring day is about 8 hours (give or take) so for your first encounter of that day you are fine and you have a mutagen going for the next 60 minutes. You can't brew another mutagen until this one wears off (if you try this one immediately goes inert).
You and your party continue for the next hour and your mutagen finally wears off, unless your party decides to stop so you can brew another one you'll have to make it on the go which doubles your crafting time to 2 hours.Now you are 1 hour into the dungeon and you 7 hours worth of adventuring time left, you're giving up 1-2 hours of that time brewing your new mutagen where you are limited to just weapon damage.
Best case scenario you are at full strength 50% of the time (one hour up 1 down) but more likely you will be at 33% power (1 hour up, 2...
I guess it depends on adventuring group. Most of the time, my group only adventures for under an hour before resting; I guess the GM is going easy on us by letting that happen, but most casters are out of their spells by the time the mutagen would wear off.
Also, I don't believe that the alchemist can benefit from metamagic feats, since alchemists don't cast spells.
I wasn't aware of this Piranha Strike or Agile bonus before... Dex-based alchemist might be interesting. Though, I like the idea of Strength-based more, personally.
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A typical adventuring day is about 8 hours (give or take) so for your first encounter of that day you are fine and you have a mutagen going for the next 60 minutes.
In my experience, the party will usually burn through its 4-6 encounters it can handle in one day pretty quickly, in about the time of an hour. If the encounters are far apart (e.g. because the party must dig through a partially collapsed tunnel, or there is overland travel involved), resting for an hour is usually no problem at all.
I think the situation will come up eventually where I want to sit down and brew another mutagen when suddenly..., but from my previous experience with Pathfinder adventures, will remain the exception.
Also, I found a cheap way to use my Agile Amulet while not under the effect of my mutagen: The Stone Fist spell. It basically emulates IUS, and thus frees up a feat slot. It might still be worthwhile to pick up TWF so I can use both fists at the same time, but I'm suspecting it would come up so rarely that I wouldn't get enough mileage out of the feat. Maybe it would be worthwhile if I also kept some silver and cold iron gauntlets around to be used with my Stone Fists... ;)
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I wasn't aware of this Piranha Strike or Agile bonus before... Dex-based alchemist might be interesting. Though, I like the idea of Strength-based more, personally.
Yeah, I think Paizo is finally giving us the tools to build functional Dex-based combattants. It's a lot of work, but that's the way it should be. Make it too easy and Str becomes obsolete.
Now if only they hadn't built in those unnecessary restrictions... most Bards and Magi are going to have Qadiran names and wield scimitars now. ;o)
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A typical adventuring day is about 8 hours (give or take) so for your first encounter of that day you are fine and you have a mutagen going for the next 60 minutes.In my experience, the party will usually burn through its 4-6 encounters it can handle in one day pretty quickly, in about the time of an hour. If the encounters are far apart (e.g. because the party must dig through a partially collapsed tunnel, or there is overland travel involved), resting for an hour is usually no problem at all.
I think the situation will come up eventually where I want to sit down and brew another mutagen when suddenly..., but from my previous experience with Pathfinder adventures, will remain the exception.
Also, I found a cheap way to use my Agile Amulet while not under the effect of my mutagen: The Stone Fist spell. It basically emulates IUS, and thus frees up a feat slot. It might still be worthwhile to pick up TWF so I can use both fists at the same time, but I'm suspecting it would come up so rarely that I wouldn't get enough mileage out of the feat. Maybe it would be worthwhile if I also kept some silver and cold iron gauntlets around to be used with my Stone Fists... ;)
Ahhh.. your DM runs the 15 minute adventuring day style of campaign.
I haven't had one of those in awhile, in those kind of campaigns where your combats/challenges are a bit rushed together and then done for the day Nava characters do just fine.
@John John, I disagree with your Dex vs. Str concept. The dex build takes longer to put together (4th level instead of 1st) costs more resources to do, is limited to much fewer weapon/armor combo's and negatively affects their casting ability (more stats to focus on means lower Int and fewer and lower level spell slots available)
I am kinda confused with this response.
The obvious is that the str build helps out with reliably inflicting damage due to having higher strength and power attack. The dex build has better saves,ac,initiative.
Are you comparing the TWF and Feral Mutagen builds?