It's a possibility, but I think that's not how it went.
In this case, the unprecedented conflict between orcs and men was big enough to gain sentience and embody all conflict for evermore. No undead state, since it wasn't one of the warriors who rose.
But the parallels are there. Maybe it's the other way around: The bloodlust and brutality of battle was so intense that it achieved sentience. When Urgathoa saw that, she got ideas and implemented it right away.
Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.
Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.
That is now officially canon in my homebrew
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I can see where Saronian is coming from. There is definitely a parallel there. Something that bears further investigation.
As far as what would turn a Graveknight from evil to neutral, I'm not sure. Actually, I would go along with KaeYoss and that Gorum was the first Graveknight, and as the first was neither good nor evil. later graveknights were not as powerful as Gorum and required the intervention of Urgathoa to fully manifest as twisted parodies of Gorum.
Upon pondering this a few minutes, for my own homebrew games I am considering making graveknights CN and they serve as manifestations of Gorum on Gollarion. (okay, in my homebrew there is no alignment so it is easier... but the connection between the two I like).
Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.
That is ridiculous. Nothing but the insane ramblings of a madman, a nincompoop walking around in a stupor.
Everyone knows that herrings and fruitbats hate each other and wouldn't do anything together.
;-P
Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.That is ridiculous. Nothing but the insane ramblings of a madman, a nincompoop walking around in a stupor.
Everyone knows that herrings and fruitbats hate each other and wouldn't do anything together.
;-P
I've had enough of your lies! You're clearly nothing but a mouthpiece for the herring/fruitbat conspiracy that controls the Banks and the World Government and the Crossing Guard Association of New Jersey.
I've had enough of your lies! You're clearly nothing but a mouthpiece for the herring/fruitbat conspiracy that controls the Banks and the World Government and the Crossing Guard Association of New Jersey.Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.That is ridiculous. Nothing but the insane ramblings of a madman, a nincompoop walking around in a stupor.
Everyone knows that herrings and fruitbats hate each other and wouldn't do anything together.
;-P
Don't drop your tinfoil hat and your shotgun you loon.
If you don't stop spewing your madness here, I'm going to call my, I don't know, Alien friends or something. Outer space pikes. Yeah, totally. And then they come and steal all your weed, like.
Something.
These boards are getting crazier by the day.
Maybe. But at least you're taking more than a humorous interst in this than the two loons.
1. Learn to count. It's three people who aren't taking this as seriously as whether a nuclear first strike is a viable option.
2. Read my first post in this thread, then go stand in a corner and weep in shame.
But yeah, I'm just thinking that after a few years of killing and such, a graveknight would just get bored.
Not really. They're undead. Spirits insane with bloodlust, a desire for battle so strong that it prevents them from moving on after death. You don't get that with a passing "war fad". And of course, they're undead, i.e. no longer living. They might not be dead, either, but what they have is a mockery of life, and undead are often incapable of changing.
Look at ghosts that will try to have a conversation with you. When you don't talk to them, or attack them, they'll fly into a rage and do their level best to obliterate you. If you then run away and return later, they won't even remember you, will try to get you to talk again.
It might not even be years to them. All there is for them is the battle.
Either they go out and hire themselves to another BBEG or decide to go be a hermit for a while, only getting into a fight when he hears a plea or call that will make something sound like an interesting fight and such.
You managed to be exactly wrong: As time moves on, they become not more "human", but less so. They don't eventually grow introspective or seek a meaning. That's what many try at first, but over time, they become bored with not fighting. Some may cling to shreds of "humanity" (though humanity in this case means they'll have some human(oid) traits, not that they're kind or the like. It depends on what kind of human they were.), but others devolve into pure incarnations of carnage.
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2. Read my first post in this thread, then go stand in a corner and weep in shame.
*goes and weeps in shame after reading your first post*
... wait, why am I weeping in shame?Regardless, it's an interesting concept. Urgathoa probably does have something to do with subsequent Graveknights and while Gorum doesn't create them (since he's not evil or into undeath), he probably doesn't mind it one whit (since they're continuously fighting and waging battle forever - exactly like Gorum likes it). Another possibility is that this might even help Gorum maintain his seat as god of battle, by channeling the rage into an undead-thing, it might prevent any more Gorums from popping into existence.
... over time, they become bored with not fighting...
Basically this is Gorum. It more or less fits him. I'd also guess the difference between Gorum and any other graveknight is that Gorum didn't need a human (or orc) person to come about.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Or maybe a dollar-thirty. All this, and I've never read the book in question!
2. Read my first post in this thread, then go stand in a corner and weep in shame.*goes and weeps in shame after reading your first post*
... wait, why am I weeping in shame?
I don't know. I wasn't even talking to you.
But say, aren't you that guy who's cruel to his wife? That should do the trick ;-P
Regardless, it's an interesting concept. Urgathoa probably does have something to do with subsequent Graveknights and while Gorum doesn't create them (since he's not evil or into undeath), he probably doesn't mind it one whit (since they're continuously fighting and waging battle forever - exactly like Gorum likes it). Another possibility is that this might even help Gorum maintain his seat as god of battle, by channeling the rage into an undead-thing, it might prevent any more Gorums from popping into existence.
I'd say that Gorum is all the Gorums that are required. All the excess Gorum goes straight to his bottom line, so to say.
Graveknights probably add to his power, but there is no upper limit for the power a deity can wield. They don't have to share some of their power if it becomes too much. I don't think that without graveknights, there would be more Gorums around.
Urgathoa is probably doing it with his blessing, though. Those guys are all about fighting, after all, and he doesn't give a damn who or what his worshippers are, only that they enjoy honest, clean combat. (I.e. no poison or tricky weakling nonsense like that. He is against slaughtering those who surrender, and I'm sure graveknights do that all the time, or at least some - probably most - of them, but since they're bound to go to Urgathoa for their fix, he won't lose too much sleep over it.
... over time, they become bored with not fighting...Basically this is Gorum. It more or less fits him. I'd also guess the difference between Gorum and any other graveknight is that Gorum didn't need a human (or orc) person to come about.
Not quite. Graveknights are undead. That means they were humans once, but since they couldn't give up the sword even after they were killed, they came back. They cannot have any contentment, satisfaction or pleasure - not even combat will provide this. They're just doing it in the ever vain hope of getting back their rush.
Gorum, on the other hand, was "born" a god. He doesn't miss the "human condition" since he never had it. Plus, as a god, he can and does take pleasure in things - mainly glorious battle.
And, as I mentioned above, he does have a code of sorts: You don't fight the helpless, you don't fight someone who surrenders or is unarmed - and tossing a peasant a sword and running him through does not count as "armed", since the guy is still no threat - and you don't murder someone through backstabbing or poison or other underhanded and craven methods.
Graveknights will go in swords blazing, but mainly because that's all they know. They will have no qualms about cutting down peasants and kids, and anything else. They're evil undead, after all.
But say, aren't you that guy who's cruel to his wife?
*goes and weeps in shame again!*
Intersting points here.
Thanks. :)
Gorum is about taking on challenges directly, whether head on or with some basic tactics/strategies, including death. Hence the reason why he and Pharasma are having a bit of grudge against each other. He just doesn't care for mindless undead, since that is a form of slavery and not worthy of glory (for the person in charge of the undead, not the people fighting it).
Regardless, it's an interesting concept. Urgathoa probably does have something to do with subsequent Graveknights and while Gorum doesn't create them (since he's not evil or into undeath), he probably doesn't mind it one whit (since they're continuously fighting and waging battle forever - exactly like Gorum likes it). Another possibility is that this might even help Gorum maintain his seat as god of battle, by channeling the rage into an undead-thing, it might prevent any more Gorums from popping into existence.
I'd say that Gorum is all the Gorums that are required. All the excess Gorum goes straight to his bottom line, so to say.
Graveknights probably add to his power, but there is no upper limit for the power a deity can wield. They don't have to share some of their power if it becomes too much. I don't think that without graveknights, there would be more Gorums around.
Urgathoa is probably doing it with his blessing, though. Those guys are all about fighting, after all, and he doesn't give a damn who or what his worshippers are, only that they enjoy honest, clean combat. (I.e. no poison or tricky weakling nonsense like that. He is against slaughtering those who surrender, and I'm sure graveknights do that all the time, or at least some - probably most - of them, but since they're bound to go to Urgathoa for their fix, he won't lose too much sleep over it.
That makes sense, and you're probably right. For one, I was imagining something a little bit more like Forgotten Realms where, a deity is a deity of something so long as they pz0wnz3r everyone else out there consistently enough, and if someone else comes along with near-equal skill, they kind of have to struggle until one comes out the victor. Golarion, it has been shown, doesn't work that way at all, so, yeah, unlikely. Just kind of a weird way for a god to come about, presuming that it couldn't happen again. Also, I'm kind of curious what would happen if someone threw a rust monster (or ten thousand) at him...
... over time, they become bored with not fighting...Basically this is Gorum. It more or less fits him. I'd also guess the difference between Gorum and any other graveknight is that Gorum didn't need a human (or orc) person to come about.
Not quite. And here's why.
Actually, believe it or not, we're kind of saying the same thing (or at least you're saying the same thing, and I'm kind of flailing about like a newborn baby who doesn't know any better yet!*). I know it was unclear, but I wasn't attempting to indicate all of what you said the first time quoted you - only the "... over time, they become bored with not fighting..." I didn't want to indicate even one word other than that. My point: all I was saying is that Gorum gets bored with not-fighting! :)
Short version: I agree with you. Gorum and Graveknights are not the same thing. Slightly longer version: they may be related in some strange ways, probably through Urgathoa.
*What?! I've got a newborn baby! I think of him all the time. Also: he's adorable!
That makes sense, and you're probably right. For one, I was imagining something a little bit more like Forgotten Realms where, a deity is a deity of something so long as they pz0wnz3r everyone else out there consistently enough, and if someone else comes along with near-equal skill, they kind of have to struggle until one comes out the victor. Golarion, it has been shown, doesn't work that way at all, so, yeah, unlikely. Just kind of a weird way for a god to come about, presuming that it couldn't happen again. Also, I'm kind of curious what would happen if someone threw a rust monster (or ten thousand) at him...I'd say that Gorum is all the Gorums that are required. All the excess Gorum goes straight to his bottom line, so to say.
Graveknights probably add to his power, but there is no upper limit for the power a deity can wield. They don't have to share some of their power if it becomes too much. I don't think that without graveknights, there would be more Gorums around.
Urgathoa is probably doing it with his blessing, though. Those guys are all about fighting, after all, and he doesn't give a damn who or what his worshippers are, only that they enjoy honest, clean combat. (I.e. no poison or tricky weakling nonsense like that. He is against slaughtering those who surrender, and I'm sure graveknights do that all the time, or at least some - probably most - of them, but since they're bound to go to Urgathoa for their fix, he won't lose too much sleep over it.
They thankfully don't use the Forgotten Realms system, where you can hex gods to non-existence by making a spell that makes everyone forget the deity.
You do have to defend your turf, there has been precedent for "divine robbery" - Lamashtu killed Desna's old mentor and took the beast portfolio (which is why many wild beasts will attack man)
But note that there are several gods of war even among the Core Pantheon. They are all about different things, but all basically war gods. In the Realms, that couldn't work, since there can be only one God of War.
Gorum is the god of war in the sense of battle for the fun of it, Iomedae is goddess of war in the sense that she is sponsoring righteous crusades, etc.
Actually, believe it or not, we're kind of saying the same thing (or at least you're saying the same thing
So I'm saying the same thing, but you're not? That's deep. You must be one of those Zen guys. So does the damn tree make a sound if it falls all alone in the woods?
My point: all I was saying is that Gorum gets bored with not-fighting! :)
Okay. Since I'm on a disagreeing-roll, I'll disagree again:P
I guess he can't even imagine the concept of not-fighting. Except as anathema (his followers are encouraged to kill pacifists - the buggers made a choice not to fight, so they're free game)
Some who describe the gods say that they're even more set in their ways than lesser outsiders. The god of war, for example, is basically incapable of seeing not fighting as a choice. Everything is literally a battlefield for him.
Those who started as mortals might be less limited in their vision, and maybe gods are actually less restricted than normal outsiders and can see the others' point of view, including that of mortals. Maybe it's somewhere in between (Rovagug possibly can't see any other choice).
Short version: I agree with you. Gorum and Graveknights are not the same thing. Slightly longer version: they may be related in some strange ways, probably through Urgathoa.
*What?! I've got a newborn baby! I think of him all the time. Also: he's adorable!
They are all about different things, but all basically war gods. In the Realms, that couldn't work, since there can be only one God of War.
Gorum is the god of war in the sense of battle for the fun of it, Iomedae is goddess of war in the sense that she is sponsoring righteous crusades, etc.
Like Iomedae is the goddess of war so are Red Knight, Targus, Garagos, Valkur, Torm, Uthgar, Anhur, Clangeddin ...
I honestly don't see a connection at all. I'n general gory ores are about the adrenalin rush of being able to possibly die at any moment. they basically want to live evey day I'n the mental state that makes real life soldiers have so much trouble adjusting after the war.
the gorumite wants to be the first guy I'n when the wall goes down after the catapult has hit it.
the grave knights as undead can't ever get that feeling and that is likely a big part of their problem. sure they can order the catapult stand next to the wall and have the giant boulder land next to them before they leap into the hole but they will be dead inside and out.
I'n ALOT of ways I see go rum as ver much a god of the living.
Like Iomedae is the goddess of war so are Red Knight, Targus, Garagos, Valkur, Torm, Uthgar, Anhur, Clangeddin ...They are all about different things, but all basically war gods. In the Realms, that couldn't work, since there can be only one God of War.
Gorum is the god of war in the sense of battle for the fun of it, Iomedae is goddess of war in the sense that she is sponsoring righteous crusades, etc.
Not quite. Note that Gorum is *not* "The" god of war. He's got of strength, battle and weapons, but a battle alone does not make a war. It is one part of war. That makes him a war god, but not the big and only one.
Tempus, on the other hand, is actually "The" god of war. War is in his portfolio. By the FR divine laws, no other god can have that as part of his portfolio, and among all war-themed gods, Tempus is the bigwig. Other gods were only allowed to have more narrow portfolios, covering "submarkets", if you will. So Garagos is not the god of war, he's only god of wild battles and skill-at-arms, while Red Knight is goddess of tactics.
It is mostly a matter of philosophy, but we are talking about deities, so philosophy is a big thing. The Realms had some very specific rules concerning deities and what they could "legally" have as their portfolio, something Golarion simply doesn't have.
yea, and in the Realms gods have to cover everything, that is one of the first things I changed
but I like to use a Gorum-Crom-Tempus-Mars amalgam, no matter what portfolios are official
Gorum is actually four hedgehogs, a herring, and a fruitbat dressed up in a mechanized suit of armor made by a bored cleric of Brigh. He would have confessed to it, but got distracted by another project - and when he finally took notice, a bunch of inbred orcs had started worshiping it. He wasn't going to be the one to tell ax-crazy orcs they were worshiping a false god, so he stayed quiet and the rest was history.
When I read this, I imagined it as though it was an entry in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Voice and all.