There are a lot of questions around the topic of introducing a new player to pathfinder. I'd like this thread to turn into a collection of advice and guides for how to introduce someone to the world of pathfinder.
I'd like to open it up to a few sub-topics like:
Class Choice
Feat Choice
Item Choice
How to introduce the numbers, and how not to scare people off with the numbers.
Format of a good introduction (pbp vs tabletop vs other medium)
Dealing with different experience levels at the table.
etc.
My number one recommendation for players who are entirely new to D&D is to play a Fighter.
Just have them take feats that give all-the-time bonuses and aren't real tricky to track. Weapon Focus, Dodge, maybe Power Attack as sort of a "Special."
They get to play a strong, useful character, while learning the basics of movement, actions, combat, etc. All without having to fiddle around with spells and adjudicating tricky bonuses and ranges.
They are not too likely to get killed. Just give them armor and a sword and let them run wild.
My number one recommendation for players who are entirely new to D&D is to play a Fighter.
Just have them take feats that give all-the-time bonuses and aren't real tricky to track. Weapon Focus, Dodge, maybe Power Attack as sort of a "Special."
They get to play a strong, useful character, while learning the basics of movement, actions, combat, etc. All without having to fiddle around with spells and adjudicating tricky bonuses and ranges.
They are not too likely to get killed. Just give them armor and a sword and let them run wild.
And this is the exact same reason I don't play a fighter, effective, yet so mind numbing....
I think a class with fairly restricted in-game choices is probably a good idea. Restricting it solely to fighters might give them the wrong idea of how the game feels though. Personally, I'd also suggest a sorceror for those keen to be spellcasters (I'd just pick the bloodline for them, I suspect and maybe suggest one or two useful spells each level) maybe some of the fighter-types too - a barbarian, ranger or rogue would probably all be ok too if they had a particular fantasy character they wanted to emulate.
I'd steer clear of wizards and clerics, personally - it seems to me that it's hard to play them 'well' until you have at least a basic idea of how the game works.
I would ask them what kind of character they want to play, then make it for them. Don't confuse them with huge lists of options, just ask what they want, while telling them what the limits are. Once they tell you something, perhaps offer up 2-3 things that are closest.
Once actual play begins, don't go over the rules. Don't explain anything in big detail. Use scenes that showcase a single big rule, then have a 3x5 index card with a summary of the rule and put it on the table as you explain it. As play progresses, keep adding more index cards, you can add page references to sub-sections if desired. It's okay to ignore a rule early, or just gloss over it behind the scenes, but then bring it up later. If you make it clear that this will happen, it's no big deal.
Basically, keep the session moving quickly and stay focused on how the rules can lead to cool stuff, don't make it a 4 hour lecture on how to play the game, keep it a game. There's a lot to learn, but simple direct scenes with obvious paths work really well.
It's probably going to be a few weeks, but one of the guys at Iron GM at gencon had a super awesome 3.5 hack that was perfect for new players and getting into the action fast. If I get my hands on his PDFs I'll host and share them.
With my new recruits, I like to ensure that they all have a ring of sustenance (making sleeping shifts and eating less of an issue). I also like the endurance feat (sleeping in armor keeps AC a constant thing). and I find that casters seem to lean more towards utility spells than combat ones. In short, give them abilities that allow them to bypass rules in one way or another. There are a number of options for ignoring concealment, difficult terrain, and other harder concepts in the game mechanics.
I tend to ask people what kind of thing they like to play, and then work within the framework of the classes to present the options. Not too bothered with the archetypes at that stage, because even I don't know how they work always, and don't want to confuse.
Feats and such like I usually suggest a few that they might like the flavour of based on what they have told me they want to do with the character. Its pretty easy, although it can take a fair amount of time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having demoed Pathfinder a few times, including to new or inexperienced RPGers, these are a few things that come to mind:
1. For a DEMO, I have pre-gen characters. I explain what is easy and what is difficult, but let them pick what they think is most fun. Make sure character sheets explain fully what all abilities do, so they know how to play their character.
2. For a campaign, I will go through the character generation process WITH the new player, but make sure they are picking out the character they want to play and writing everything down--a lot of understanding of what your character can do can start with the character creation process. It absolutely makes me CRINGE when I hear someone say, "Well, I made this character for her, but now she doesn't understand how to play it..." Of course she doesn't you moron. I wouldn't steer someone toward a class, but I would say, "Okay, if you play this class, you're going to have to keep track of a lot of spells. If you play this class on the other hand, there's less special abilities to track, but you're going to need to learn more about special actions in combat and how they work..."
3. Explain the core d20 mechanic--"The rest don't worry about memorizing, it'll come to you as you keep playing. If in doubt, roll a d20 and add it; I'll let you know if you need to do something different." Include a quicksheet that explains some of the basic terms so they can check that.
4. DO NOT TELL A NEW PERSON WHAT TO DO--offer suggestions if they look stumped (and keep it simple, stuff like, "Well, do you want to cast a spell or hit it with your sword?") and or ASK them if they want advice, but do not just BADGER them with what they should do. This happens less in demos but more often in home games---a newb who often has far better instincts than they give themselves credit for starts to describe an action that is PERFECTLY FINE, and a veteran starts yelling, "NO! You should cast Eber's Black Ball of Icky Goo!" and someone else starts saying "Take a five foot step first!" and utterly bombarding the person with "suggestions" that simply cow the new player into waiting to hear what the veterans tell them what to do, rather than learning to devise their own roleplaying style and respond to tactics in the way they feel most fit. In other words, though it is so very hard: SHUT UP AND LET THEM PLAY THE DAMN GAME.
5. Corollary: let the newb make mistakes. I think I've learned my best tactics by botching something utterly first. A lot of times letting them see a bad plan go wrong rather than just trying to tell them not to do something (OOCly) helps get certain tactical ideas. It's legit to be concerned if something is going to harm the party, but you should also be able to trust the GM to make sure a newb mistake is not going to result in a TPK (and the GM SHOULD be trustworthy in that regard). Not to mention, sometimes what YOU think is a "mistake" isn't. I've seen some of the best and coolest outside-the-box solutions come from newbs who are approaching the system with a fresh perspective, as opposed to veterans who do the same damn tired thing with the same mediocre results that they stick to because they're "safe."
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I initiate my players through a ritual of fasting and meditation in the deep forests. There we sup on a secret blend of herbs, spices and out of date Mountain Dew until we transcend our mortal forms and appear astrally as our power monster (I'm an Umber Hulk for reference). Then we chant the ritual of initiation, praise the elder deities of GMing and look inwards to discover the truth of roleplaying.
That or I invite them to a game and let them discover the game at their own pace.
Ask them what kind of character they want to play. Try to get character ideas from movies, literature, and TV.
One of the best intro character classes is the ranger. It is mostly combat, but can do other things too. Climb, Knowledge dungeoneering, Knowledge nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival, and Swim are all class skills and seem to be the kinds of things newbie PCs would want to do (I'll scale the tree (Climb) and hide there (Stealth) while looking for out for danger (Perception); I'll search (Perception) the room for clues (Knowledge check). It also eventually introduces spellcasting.
Other easy classes are Sorcerer, Fighter, Oracle. The 3.5 warlock is an even easier introduction to a magic-user, but hasn't been officially Patherfinderized yet.
Well, first you get the blindfold, then you get the tube sock filled with something heavy... oh, um, nothing nothing.
Premade characters, are a great thing for anyone. This will help get the person used to the rules while not having to worry about how to make the character.
Supply dice, a pencil, some paper and any class that does not involve looking up everything that the person can do, such as spells, all the combat maneuvers etc...
Then you need one or two people in the group that are great at the roleplaying aspect of this game and not just the number crunching.
The roleplayer will draw a person into a game faster than anything else you can do. That person will become a role model and the thing most remembered about your game.
If the players are higher level, make the person start out at level one and give him/her a couple really cool items to protect that person from area spells and make it the other player's job to protect the new guy.
It's also fun starting the new person out as a diplomat or something that is not used to fighting as well.
Then up the level of the new guy, to the rest of the party level, quick enough that he/she is comfortable with the new abilities and not overwhelmed.
Also, music draws a person into the mood or feel of a game very quickly, but that's a standard anyway.
If the entire group is made of new players then you don't have to start with fully flashed characters from the beginning. Instead, fill the PC sheet over the course of several sessions. For example:
First do only race, abilities and skills - they're simple folks at this stage and don't have much to rely upon besides their cunning and resourcefulness. Calculate stuff like saving throws, armor class, attack bonus and so forth by yourself (assume all are commoners), unless the player seems to be interested in the mechanics (many just want to play, not get into the rules).
Then let each player choose a class, hopefully related to their actions during the first stage. The dude who hacked the goblin to death with a machete would probably want to be a fighter, while the one who went for the magic wand will want to be a wizard (crude example, but you see the point.) For even more gradual immersion, you could "open" class features one at a time rather drop them all at once.
Lastly, do feats. Just like with the previous stage, suggest folks pick up feats that represent their actions during the previous sessions.
Tried this several times and it was rather fun. Ever experienced players enjoyed the initial challenge.
I'm one of those people that sits with a new player through the character creation and help them with selections, while not trying to force them into anything. I once had a complete newb playing a druid and she handled it ok(ish...). Anyway, the one thing I've always told all my players is that if they can think of something to do I'll let them know if and how to pull it off. If they wanna sneak up on someone "Roll your d20. Ok, what's your stealth score." Someone next to them helps them locate it and we are good. Same thing for a simple attack, or even attempting to punch through your enemy's chest and rip out his still beating heart. I had a newb ask me that last one in one of his first sessions. He was a lvl 5 barbarian, so I couldn't say no. The best part about new players (or even old players who don't bother to learn all the rules) is that they come up with that really interesting stuff because they aren't usually worried about optimizing their damage output that turn, and I think that makes things more fun for everyone.
One of the downsides of doing too much for the new players is that it gives an incorrect impression of what the game is actually like to play. We have nearly always gone with pre-generated characters we think 'the new guy' will like when introducing someone to the game - however, it has to be said that doing so conceals a lot of the bookkeeping inherent in playing a pen-and-pencil RPG.
There's probably an upside to that as well (ie all those not scared off by the number crunching) - but nonetheless, I've definitely seen someone who quite liked the game until it came to the part when they were expected to track things themselves and to make decisions when tweaking their character. It turns out that, at least from their perspective, RPGs are far, far better on a computer where it all happens behind the scenes. In that instance at least, it would have been better for all concerned for him to learn that early on.
|
I'm one of those people that sits with a new player through the character creation and help them with selections, while not trying to force them into anything. I once had a complete newb playing a druid and she handled it ok(ish...). Anyway, the one thing I've always told all my players is that if they can think of something to do I'll let them know if and how to pull it off. If they wanna sneak up on someone "Roll your d20. Ok, what's your stealth score." Someone next to them helps them locate it and we are good. Same thing for a simple attack, or even attempting to punch through your enemy's chest and rip out his still beating heart. I had a newb ask me that last one in one of his first sessions. He was a lvl 5 barbarian, so I couldn't say no. The best part about new players (or even old players who don't bother to learn all the rules) is that they come up with that really interesting stuff because they aren't usually worried about optimizing their damage output that turn, and I think that makes things more fun for everyone.
The bold part brought a tear of joy... and this is why I love new players...
Hunter.
Wait... sorry, wrong forums.
I'm one of those people that sits with a new player through the character creation and help them with selections, while not trying to force them into anything. I once had a complete newb playing a druid and she handled it ok(ish...). Anyway, the one thing I've always told all my players is that if they can think of something to do I'll let them know if and how to pull it off. If they wanna sneak up on someone "Roll your d20. Ok, what's your stealth score." Someone next to them helps them locate it and we are good. Same thing for a simple attack, or even attempting to punch through your enemy's chest and rip out his still beating heart. I had a newb ask me that last one in one of his first sessions. He was a lvl 5 barbarian, so I couldn't say no. The best part about new players (or even old players who don't bother to learn all the rules) is that they come up with that really interesting stuff because they aren't usually worried about optimizing their damage output that turn, and I think that makes things more fun for everyone.The bold part brought a tear of joy... and this is why I love new players...
Yeah, that's the best part of newbies! They don't know what they can't do, so they try to do everything!!!!
Also, I try to avoid using alignments early on. They only have a mechanical influence for some select spells and paladin class abilities. Outside of that, it's a limiting part of creating a character, and a difficult concept to explain in the first place.
It seems the concensus so far is: Fighters are easiest to learn, and spellcasters should be avoided if possible.
Static bonuses seem to be preferred for feats and items, but is there a validity to items that let you avoid rules within the game mechanic?
Having demoed Pathfinder a few times, including to new or inexperienced RPGers, these are a few things that come to mind:
1. For a DEMO, I have pre-gen characters. I explain what is easy and what is difficult, but let them pick what they think is most fun. Make sure character sheets explain fully what all abilities do, so they know how to play their character.
2. For a campaign, I will go through the character generation process WITH the new player, but make sure they are picking out the character they want to play and writing everything down--a lot of understanding of what your character can do can start with the character creation process. It absolutely makes me CRINGE when I hear someone say, "Well, I made this character for her, but now she doesn't understand how to play it..." Of course she doesn't you moron. I wouldn't steer someone toward a class, but I would say, "Okay, if you play this class, you're going to have to keep track of a lot of spells. If you play this class on the other hand, there's less special abilities to track, but you're going to need to learn more about special actions in combat and how they work..."
3. Explain the core d20 mechanic--"The rest don't worry about memorizing, it'll come to you as you keep playing. If in doubt, roll a d20 and add it; I'll let you know if you need to do something different." Include a quicksheet that explains some of the basic terms so they can check that.
4. DO NOT TELL A NEW PERSON WHAT TO DO--offer suggestions if they look stumped (and keep it simple, stuff like, "Well, do you want to cast a spell or hit it with your sword?") and or ASK them if they want advice, but do not just BADGER them with what they should do. This happens less in demos but more often in home games---a newb who often has far better instincts than they give themselves credit for starts to describe an action that is PERFECTLY FINE, and a veteran starts yelling, "NO! You should cast Eber's Black Ball of Icky Goo!" and someone else starts saying "Take a five foot...
For the most part, I agree with this.
I'd just add that you should stick to the core rulebook. For a new player, avoid offering too many options, or they could feel overwhelmed. For example: all the archetypes, alternate racial powers, and expanded spell lists from the APG. It might even be a good idea to limit the options for all players, so the new-player doesn't feel like they are penalized because they are new. As the new player learns how to play, you can slowly add elements from other books back into the game. You know your players better than I do, so you are the one that can say if these "limited" options would be appeal to the vetrans.
|
Contributor
|
I initiate new players all the time. Lots of them.
I explain the core mechanic... that's about it. I try to sit them with a seasoned player. but sometimes. I'm the only one with seasoning at a full table.
Here's my tip: Run the game like the kid you were when you ran Keep on the Borderlands in grade school!
In other words, try to make whatever you're doing as much fun as possible.
I let new players play whatever they want to (sometimes they'll just describe some idea they have and you can suggest.. why that sounds like you'd like to play a ranger). I bend rules here and there to make the experience as full of awesomeness as I possibly can. I let the players use their imaginations to tell me what they want to do, then tell them whether or not their character is good at that. Sure I drop hints and suggestions, but really the goal is not to teach a game... its to teach a process (which is similar to all RPGs) and make that process fun so that your new players want to learn the game. My job, is to remember as many of the rules as I can (and keep my head out of the books until the games over, which is a lot easier to do with new players as they aren't going to be rules lawyers.)
I say, throw the newbie in feet first... make your players feel like a hero, reward good choices, intimate or hint at moves (and this works with any class). And then, after they had a good time, go over finer points or details.
So, during a game I may allow some action, determine the result using the core mechanic; then later, I say, "normally the action you took would sort of works like [then explain the rule], but I sort of fudged things today to keep things moving and keep the game fun. Next time, we'll try to stick closer to the rules. I allow the game to happen first, then build up rules knowledge.
So that's kind of my angle. I find the rules first approach things tends to either overwhelm or bore new players (at least those who've never played an RPG before), thus fewer of them come back to try again.
Yeah, I love that guy. Didn't pull out his greataxe for at least three sessions, just went in and grappled the hell out of everything. (Often trying to collect hearts.) Even after he learned (most of) the rules, he continued to come up with crazy stuff though.
marshmellows
power tools
non dairy creamer
5 gallon bucket of crisco
1 goat
1 sheep
1 cow
4 rolls of duct tape
passport
wad of Australian dollars.
Astrolabe
-For a roll player, an engineer, or someone used to video games start with combat
-For a right brained thespian, drama major, literaure type, start with Role play.
explain the general stuff (attack, skill magic, classes, races) very shortly.
let the players do what they want
help them wherever you can
take your time, don't pressure anyone.
|
marshmellows
power tools
non dairy creamer
5 gallon bucket of crisco
1 goat
1 sheep
1 cow
4 rolls of duct tape
passport
wad of Australian dollars.
Astrolabe-For a roll player, an engineer, or someone used to video games start with combat
-For a right brained thespian, drama major, literaure type, start with Role play.
I have to ask why Australian Dollars???
As an Australian i should help you note we don't have notes for any denomination under $5, A sack of Australia Dollar coins may work wonders in place of a wad
|
Contributor
|
marshmellows
power tools
non dairy creamer
5 gallon bucket of crisco
1 goat
1 sheep
1 cow
4 rolls of duct tape
passport
wad of Australian dollars.
Astrolabe-For a roll player, an engineer, or someone used to video games start with combat
-For a right brained thespian, drama major, literaure type, start with Role play.
I have to ask why Australian Dollars???
As an Australian i should help you note we don't have notes for any denomination under $5, A sack of Australia Dollar coins may work wonders in place of a wad
Here in the states we minted a gold dollar coin. Before Gen Con a few years back, my buddy Mike went to a bank and took out $500 in gold coins so he could pay for everything in gold pieces "like a real adventurer".
The downside was he paid extra for his bags on the flight to Indy.Apparently coins are mighty heavy.
There are a lot of questions around the topic of introducing a new player to pathfinder. I'd like this thread to turn into a collection of advice and guides for how to introduce someone to the world of pathfinder.
I'd like to open it up to a few sub-topics like:
Class Choice
Feat Choice
Item Choice
How to introduce the numbers, and how not to scare people off with the numbers.
Format of a good introduction (pbp vs tabletop vs other medium)
Dealing with different experience levels at the table.
etc.
I am a brand new player to Pathfinder. I have not yet played a session, and my DM is giving me time to read and figure out the system. I have several years of experience with 3.5, so I'm not totally lost, but I am having to learn this system all on my own. Here are a few suggestions about what to teach new players, from the perspective of someone learning. Bear in mind, I am being initiated into Society gaming.
Play a simple class first. This makes it easy to get into, whether the person has no experience with RP at all, or wants to learn the differences in the system. I am playing a fighter after years and years of RPing, and while it does feel a little flat, it is helping me learn differences.
Point out specifics, and be prepared to list where the rules talk about them. Things like day jobs are hinted at, but are buried under layers of implications. I have been searching the books trying to find rules on these things, but can't find them. Also, point the player at the Guide. I had to find it buried in the Paizo pages on here. (I really wish they would sell a copy for like 9.99 in stores or something, just to have a hard copy available). Specific rules only work if the people teaching know where to reference them; otherwise, the player is buried in half-truths and confusion.