I am looking for help with an arcane caster build. Below is some of the info others have asked for on my prior post.
Group Background
We have 4 definite players and a possible 5th
Me – recently (all DnD 3.5e) a tank, melee gish, or melee war priest. But trying an arcane caster this time.
Player that is almost always a 'glass cannon' melee type. He usually plays it more as a berserker though. Close and slash until target dead then next target. But he said he might try to build a tank
Player that is usually an info gathering rogue. Usually not optimized for combat. Info/burglar is primary archery distant second.
Player that is often cleric, druid, or ranger. No details yet.
But none of that is engraved in stone yet.
New to Pathfinder – Old to DnD 1e-3.5e
Looks like we will be doing the Carrion Crown adventure path which goes through about 15th level by what I have read on the boards.
Resources avail are Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Game Master's Guide, free Character Traits download, free Carrion Crown Players Guide download, by the time we start I will have the Inner Sea Campaign Setting, and any free official pathfinder online (with GM approval).
Do not have the APG or Ultimate books.
Trying to stay away from DnD. Do not want to mix things until we are all more comfortable with PF. Maybe next campaign.
Do not want something so complex that it slows down the game because I or the GM can’t figure it out.
I want to build an arcane caster that has a better chance to survive especially at low/medium level.
The last 2 campaigns I have been in each had players that tried a sorc or wiz. Due to a number of factors like players, GM, setting, reach, ambush, intelligent opponents, etc… the casters were not able to stay out of harm’s way. Those casters seemed to spend a lot of their time (at least in the serious fights) running, evading, and/or dying. The cleric was using most of his spells healing/buffing the wizard instead of the front line types. The group was spending a lot of our cash on raises/ressurections. Eventually the players gave up and started new characters.
Therefore, I am looking for a build that can survive more than 1 or 2 rounds if he does get in melee and has good enough saves to hopefully make it if the enemy casters concentrate on him until someone can assist him. I had a couple of suggestions for the Magus but my quick look it seems more of a melee gish than a caster.
Ideas?
A low level wizard is fairly survivable with the right spells. At lvl 1 you are talking about mage armor and shield. This can give you a AC close to or above 20. In addition, mirror image at lvl 3 is a great surviving spell. Can give you greater than total concealment.
As far as being surprised - be a divination wizard. They get 1/2 level to initiative and they always act in the surprise round.
Trying to stay away from DnD. Do not want to mix things until we are all more comfortable with PF. Maybe next campaign.
Do not want something so complex that it slows down the game because I or the GM can’t figure it out.I want to build an arcane caster that has a better chance to survive especially at low/medium level.
The last 2 campaigns I have been in each had players that tried a sorc or wiz. Due to a number of factors like players, GM, setting, reach, ambush, intelligent opponents, etc… the casters were not able to stay out of harm’s way. Those casters seemed to spend a lot of their time (at least in the serious fights) running, evading, and/or dying. The cleric was using most of his spells healing/buffing the wizard instead of the front line types. The group was spending a lot of our cash on...
What is it about the magus that doesnt work? Not enough casting? To many abilities focused on combat?
Are you allowed to use 3rd party material? For instance, one possibility is you could play as a mystic godling. Specifically an eldritch guideline, in which case you could choose something like CON or DEX as your casting stat for the class, which would add to survivability. And some of the divine traits/lineage domains could also be effective in increasing survivability. And the class can use any spell list, such so you can use the sorc/wizard spell list.
I want to build an arcane caster that has a better chance to survive especially at low/medium level.
Pure arcane casters (i.e. Witch/Sorc/Wizard) will always be squishy, especially at the low levels. You could engage in some low level multiclass dipping. Monk offers a lot at 1st level; saves, Wis to AC, Improved Unarmed, Bonus Feat, Flurry (at low levels, melee killing your target may be the most viable option). Fighter offers plenty as well, allowing you to go the armored caster route eventually (Arcane Armor Training/Mastery) and even Eldritch Knight maintains arcane casting pretty well (lose 2 levels of caster over 16 levels).
Other options you could consider are simply taking Shield Proficiency (and suck up the Arcane Spell Failure). A Heavy Mithril Shield has 5% failure rate and offers +2 AC for starters; much more when properly enchanted. It's also cheap enough to acquire pretty early in your career. You could add Arcane Armor Training into the mix later, but that still requires Light Armor Proficiency.
Taking Dodge then Mobility will also help. This will allow you to flee melee a bit more safely thanks to the extra +4 AC from AoO while moving.
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I had a half-orc sorcerer that spent a lot of time at the front lines with Shield, Chill Touch, and a greataxe. He survived just fine. Here are some of the things to keep in mind:
Defense is key. Invest in at least one of Shield and Mage Armor, perhaps both. If you're a sorcerer, stick with one or the other.
Have something to do in melee. You can't always rely on spells to get you out, so even just being able to pull out a quarterstaff when necessary will help.
Don't tank your physical scores. Decent DEX and a high CON help a LOT toward survivability.
Consider Toughness. It's a great feat at low levels, and it still gives you use at high levels. Toughness saved my sorcerer's bacon a few times.
Tactics, tactics, tactics. Yes, you might not be able to avoid the bad guys reaching you, but you can make sure you aren't caught alone. Hang out near the cleric or paladin while you cast. But when you can get yourself into a hard-to-reach position, take it.
I'll think about a full arcane caster that can survive melee at low levels. I've done this quite a bit; I just have to think about what might be most fun.
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Here's a sample character, assuming 20 pt buy:
Level 1 Gnome Fire Elemental Sorcerer
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18
Fort +3
Ref +2
Will +2
HP 10 (6 +3 Con +1 FC)
AC 13 Touch 13, FF 11 (+2 Dex, +1 Size) (17 with Shield)
Attacks:
Fiery(Shocking) Grasp: +0 Touch Attack, 2d6 fire damage
Produce Flame: +3 Ranged Touch Attack, 1d6+2 fire damage, 120' range
Elemental Ray: +3 Ranged Touch Attack, 1d6+1 fire damage, 30' range, 7/day
Racial Traits:
Obsessive: Craft(Weaponsmith)
Master Tinker
Pyromaniac
Spells known:
Level 0: Spark, Light, Mending, Detect Magic
Level 1: Shield, Shocking Grasp
Skills:
Spellcraft +4
Craft (Weaponsmith) +6
Feat:
Combat Casting
Note that you're trading battlefield control for melee capability at first. But this is just one of a number of ways that you'll be no more squishy than the non-tanks in the party.
...What is it about the magus that doesnt work? Not enough casting? To many abilities focused on combat?...
I'm not sure that the magus doesn't work. But at a quick look it seemed very melee combat oriented. Cast with weapon strike, touch spells, etc... I would like to learn to play more of a caster. But I will look at it more closely this weekend and go over the spell list in more detail. See if I can make a caster build that uses the class abilities just for survival while ranged casting.
...Are you allowed to use 3rd party material?...
The GM did not forbid 3rd party stuff, but we are really trying to limit the sources since we are all new to Pathfinder. Next campaign we will be much more open to the complexity and confusion of more sources...
...be a divination wizard. They get 1/2 level to initiative and they always act in the surprise round.
I had missed that. That's pretty cool. Especially if I combined that with a decent dex and improved initiative.
Definitely worth thinking about.
...Monk offers a lot at 1st level; saves, Wis to AC, Improved Unarmed, Bonus Feat, Flurry (at low levels, melee killing your target may be the most viable option). Fighter offers plenty as well, allowing you to go the armored caster route eventually (Arcane Armor Training/Mastery) and even Eldritch Knight maintains arcane casting pretty well (lose 2 levels of caster over 16 levels).
Other options you could consider are simply taking Shield Proficiency (and suck up the Arcane Spell Failure). A Heavy Mithril Shield has 5% failure rate and offers +2 AC for starters; much more when properly enchanted. It's also cheap enough to acquire pretty early in your career. You could add Arcane Armor Training into the mix later, but that still requires Light Armor Proficiency.
Taking Dodge then Mobility will also help. This will allow you to flee melee a bit more safely thanks to the extra +4 AC from AoO while moving.
I like the thought of Monk caster, but it seems like it would be hard on the ability point spread to make proper use of the options.
I was thinking about ftr 1 / wizard 6 / eldritch knight.
Been seriously considering pal 2 / sorc for armor and saves. (In another post I was talking about combining with dragon disciple but everyone convinced me I would be giving up too much casting ability.)
And yes, you are probably correct. I will likely need to put some precious feats into dodge and mobility.
25 Point Buy, Halfling Wizard +2 DEX, +2 CHA, -2 STR
Small: Halflings are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC a +1 size bonus on attack rolls a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Fearless: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on all saving throw against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Halfling Luck: Halflings receive a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
Keen Senses: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Sure-Footed: Halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics and Climb skill checks.
Str 9
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 13
Cha 13
Saves: Fort +3, Reflex +6, Will +4
Familiar: Fox
AC: 15
HP: 9
Feat: Dodge
I like the thought of Monk caster, but it seems like it would be hard on the ability point spread to make proper use of the options.
It's not totally bad. You should be able to get by with DEX 14 and WIS 14, which is effectively DEX 18, only cheaper (point buy wise). You also get more benefit from those WIS boosting items like the Headband of Mental Superiority.
I was thinking about ftr 1 / wizard 6 / eldritch knight.
This is probably the best compromise of them all. There are even a small number of Verbal only spells at each level so you don't have to rely on Arcane Armor Training or Still Spells. Though AAT/AAM and Still Spell are still totally worth taking. BTW, you only need Ftr1/Wiz5 to qualify for EK.
Been seriously considering pal 2 / sorc for armor and saves. (In another post I was talking about combining with dragon disciple but everyone convinced me I would be giving up too much casting ability.)
The DD route is great for sorcerers who want to melee, what with the boosts to STR and CON, all the extra HP and the like. Even then, you'd often be better off going Pal2/Sor3/DD4/Eldritch Knight (YMMV) to keep the BaB and spell casting from lagging too badly.
I'd hesitate on the Pal/Sor for the simple reason that Sorcerers already have a slightly slower spell progression, so they come out the worse for multiclassing than, say a Wizard or Witch.
And yes, you are probably correct. I will likely need to put some precious feats into dodge and mobility.
The sooner the better. Don't forget Combat Casting so you can avoid AoO's by casting defensively either.
Dwarf Wizard Divination (Foresight)
25 pt buy:
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 14
Cha: 5
Feat: Steel Soul
Buy Scale Mail & Heavy wooden shield. Drop shield at the start of your turn. Since you aren't proficient with medium armor the check penalty will affect you to hit rolls. So use spells that don't use to hit (=mainly Daze from level 0...). When you can afford buy a wand (no armor failure). Later give up armor, when you have spells to protect yourself... levels 1 and 2 its kind of waste to use your spells to defend yourself, better use them offensively.
Take toughness at first level? Maybe gnome sorceror with high like 16 con as well and a good 14 dex.
+1 size bonus to armor class will help and no armor means you can stealth. You can have 13 hit points at level 1.
For stats maybe
str 8
dex 14
con 16
Int 10
wis 10
cha 18
I am looking for help with an arcane caster build. Below is some of the info others have asked for on my prior post.
magical knack trait
human 1ftr/5wiz(probably diviner for never missing surprise round)/10 eldritch knightlvl 1(dodge), human(toughness), fighter(shield focus)
level 3 feat(still spell)
13 dex + full plate + tower shield is your survivability, full caster lvl, at low levels take feather fall/true strike as your spells for no arcane spell failure chance til you can use still spell on your lvl 1 spells you want to cast.
Thanks for your help everybody.
I think I will try 2 builds and see which I like better.
Pal 2 / sorc (celestial bloodline) remainder
not sure of race, maybe gnome
and
Halfling ftr 1 / wiz remainder
not sure of specialization, prob div or trans
I will start the builds and bost them for critique in a couple of days.
thx again.