“Einhänder” Fighter archetype
Einhänder (one-weapon) fighters are a uncommon and misunderstood breed of warriors in the world. While seen as little more than dandies by many, einhänder fighters are brutal and intelligent warriors that take advantage of everything they can to attain victory. Their ‘empty hand’ is used for precision, balance, and for attacks that few see coming; for even an empty hand is still a weapon.
Professional Warrior
At 1st level a Einhänder fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise and Power Attack feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A Einhänder Fighter can ignore the Ability Score prerequisite of feats with Power Attack or Combat Expertise as prerequisites. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level Bonus Feat and the fighter’s proficiency with medium armor and heavy armor, and shields.
Broad Maneuvers
At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter a Einhänder Fighter can choose to take any two Improved Combat Maneuver feats in the place of the normal bonus feat gained at those levels. At level 6 on a Einhänder Fighter can choose to take up to any two Greater or Quick Combat Maneuver feats that he has the Improved version of in place of the normal feat gained at those levels.
This ability alters the Bonus Feats gained at 2nd level and every Fighter Bonus Feat gained thereafter.
Maneuver Mastery (Ex)
At 2nd level, a Einhänder fighter gains a +2 bonus on all CMB checks and to his CMD. These bonuses increases by +2 at level 6 and every four levels thereafter. This ability replaces Bravery.
Strategic Movements
At 3rd level, a Einhänder Fighter in light or no armor and unencumbered, adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. These bonuses to AC and CMD apply even against touch attacks or when the Einhänder fighter is flat-footed. At 8th level and every four levels thereafter the Einhänder Fighter gains a +1 Dodge bonus to AC and CMD and a +5 bonus to Base Speed.
He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor over light, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1 and 3.
Singleton (Ex)
At 5th level, a free Einhänder Fighter wielding a melee weapon in one hand and leaving his other hand free, or when fighting unarmed, gains a bonus to attack rolls and to his CMB equal to his Intelligence Modifier (minimal +1).
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 7th level, a Einhänder fighter can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A Einhänder fighter with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If a Einhänder fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
Smooth Moves (Ex)
At 9th level a Einhänder fighter can choose to ‘Take 10’ with his combat maneuvers treating the result of a combat maneuver as his CMB+10.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2.
Surgical Precision
At 13th level, a Einhänder fighter wielding a melee weapon in one hand and leaving his other hand free, or when fighting unarmed, gains a bonus to damage equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimal +1).
This ability replaces Weapon Training 3.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 15th level and higher, a Einhänder fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Einhänder fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
This ability replaces Armor Training 4
Perfect Moves (Ex)
At 17th level a Einhänder fighter can choose to ‘Take 15’ with his combat maneuvers treating the result of a combat maneuver as his CMB+15. This ability replaces Weapon Training 4.
One-Armed Demon (Ex)
At 19th level, a Einhänder fighter is capable of attacking at blinding speeds with such ease that it almost appears that they are attacking with two weapons. An Einhänder fighter gains an additional attack each round at their highest attack bonus even when making only a single attack action or when otherwise limited to only one attack (such as from using the Vital Strike feat).
Weapon Mastery
A Einhänder fighter must choose a light or one-handed melee weapon to select for Weapon Mastery.
On scale of 1-10 of chessey this thing is 10 to 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000 power.
off the bat
give up 2 armor and shield feat for power attack and Combat Expertise
improved unarmed strike
then
2 feat of smaller list by give in 1 on big list
then
+1 vs small save posabilty for +2 vs all CMD and + 2 on CMB
then add you INT to all AC/Touch AC/ CMD then +20ft and +4 ac of the next 16 levels
I have to stop cause my head is hurting cause this to crazzy.
Run # this vs your party at equal level and tell me who wins.
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I've got a LOT Of experience creating archetypes, and I can tell you right now the way you have it written is insanely overpowered. It's a great concept, though, so don't give up on it.
1. Professional Warrior will be alright if you give him TWO of those feats, not all three. I'd suggest Improved Unarmed and Combat Expertise. Make him spend a feat on Power Attack.
2. You can't be giving out two feats for the price of one. It's broken. I would drop it completely.
3. Maneuver Mastery for Bravery is a LITTLE overpowered, but I can accept it.
4. Int to AC and CMD is fine since he gave up medium and heavy armor. However, I don't think they should apply when flat-footed. Touch attacks, fine. I'd say make this a Dodge bonus equal to his Int bonus and it's fair. Don't try to make this increase with level though, and don't give him extra movement, that's nuts. You're trying to make this fighter archetype into a monk, and that's not cool when you get full BAB progression.
5. AAAHHH! Singleton is so incredibly broken. You can't trade a single +1 bonus to attack and damage for a bonus based on an attribute! If you want Singleton to be a real ability, it'll have to replace ALL of the weapon training progression, and it'll have to start off as 1/2 Int bonus until level 10.
6. Uncanny dodge? Nope, that's too powerful, especially to trade for a single progression of armor training. Drop it.
7. Smooth moves. No. You can NEVER take 10 on anything like this. Drop it.
8. Surgical precision. Make this one part of Singleton and have them both trade out for all of the weapon training progression.
9. TAKE 15?? WHAT?? Sorry, now you're just making stuff up.
10. One-armed demon would be alright as a capstone replacing the Fighter's normal capstone. No way you should get it earlier than 20th level though.
“Einhänder” Fighter archetype
Einhänder (one-weapon) fighters are a uncommon and misunderstood breed of warriors in the world. While seen as little more than dandies by many, einhänder fighters are brutal and intelligent warriors that take advantage of everything they can to attain victory. Their ‘empty hand’ is used for precision, balance, and for attacks that few see coming; for even an empty hand is still a weapon.Professional Warrior
At 1st level a Einhänder fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise and Power Attack feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A Einhänder Fighter can ignore the Ability Score prerequisite of feats with Power Attack or Combat Expertise as prerequisites. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level Bonus Feat and the fighter’s proficiency with medium armor and heavy armor, and shields.Broad Maneuvers
At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter a Einhänder Fighter can choose to take any two Improved Combat Maneuver feats in the place of the normal bonus feat gained at those levels. At level 6 on a Einhänder Fighter can choose to take up to any two Greater or Quick Combat Maneuver feats that he has the Improved version of in place of the normal feat gained at those levels.
This ability alters the Bonus Feats gained at 2nd level and every Fighter Bonus Feat gained thereafter.Maneuver Mastery (Ex)
At 2nd level, a Einhänder fighter gains a +2 bonus on all CMB checks and to his CMD. These bonuses increases by +2 at level 6 and every four levels thereafter. This ability replaces Bravery.Strategic Movements
At 3rd level, a Einhänder Fighter in light or no armor and unencumbered, adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. These bonuses to AC and CMD apply even against touch attacks or when the Einhänder fighter is flat-footed. At 8th level and every four levels thereafter the Einhänder Fighter gains a +1 Dodge bonus to AC and CMD and a +5 bonus to Base Speed.He loses these...
That’s part of the reason for posting it, so it can be refined. Part of my great annoyance is that while two-handed and two-weapon styles keep getting more and more stuff the single-weapon fighters either get nothing or (as is the case with the One-Weapon Fighter archetype) are incredibly sub-par in comparison as to simply using the default fighter.
1. Professional Warrior will be alright if you give him TWO of those feats, not all three. I'd suggest Improved Unarmed and Combat Expertise. Make him spend a feat on Power Attack.
Good point, I was originally wanting to make it so that you didn’t need Power Attack, Combat Expertise, or Improved Unarmed Strike to take Combat Maneuver feat but coulnt figure out a way to properly word it. Analyzing feats I was also somewhat stuck by how Improved Unarmed Strike was somewhat useless 90% of the time as you deal less damage than even a dagger and that its only real effect is that you don’t grant AoO from fighting unarmed. Combat Expertise is, as I hear across the boards, the Red-headed Stepchild of the combat modifier feats (read: Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, Piranha Strike) is seems that people only take it for the prerequisites for other feats (which is a pity as is was a good feat in 3.0). But you make a good point that Power Attack should be taken on their own steam.
2. You can't be giving out two feats for the price of one. It's broken. I would drop it completely.
From what I hear most people hate the fact that you have to spend a feat to be able to perform combat maneuvers at all (at least without being beaten down in the process). Just asking but how often do you see combat maneuvers performed in your games?
It would seem that most people would love to use more combat maneuver’s in their games but the lack of feats (and better options for spending those few feats) means most will only focus in only 1 combat maneuver (from what I’m seeing that would be “Trip”, [snark] surprising [snark] its also the one with the most feats dedicated into expanding/improving its use). I suppose it depends on whether you consider combat maneuver useful or not, technically like the Improved Unarmed Strike feat it doesn’t really make a character more powerful but simply allows them to do more…err more without penalty at least.
I think I’ll wait and see what others think about this one.
3. Maneuver Mastery for Bravery is a LITTLE overpowered, but I can accept it.
I figured that one wouldn’t be a big deal the Lore Warden gets it for just giving up Armor Training I, which is only 1 level higher than Bravery and at least gives up all of the ability (I still don’t know whether they have errata’d it or not, since otherwise the Lore Warden only gives up the first Bravery bonus).
4. Int to AC and CMD is fine since he gave up medium and heavy armor. However, I don't think they should apply when flat-footed. Touch attacks, fine. I'd say make this a Dodge bonus equal to his Int bonus and it's fair. Don't try to make this increase with level though, and don't give him extra movement, that's nuts. You're trying to make this fighter archetype into a monk, and that's not cool when you get full BAB progression.
I modeled it after the monks AC Bonus ability which does roughly the same thing. Strangely like the monk you keep your mental defense stat but still lose your Dexterity, which will likely still constitute a majority of AC. Unlike the monk the archetype is still a front-line combatant (a mêlée-focused one at that) so you’ll likely find yourself flat-footed more often than receiving touch attacks (unless your playing a heavy firearms game -_-) and be the focus of more attack than the monk too. Likewise the dodge bonuses (which maxes out at +4 at level 20) is there to help minimize the fact that your AC is going to be otherwise much lower than the guy in medium and especially heavy armor.
Gunslingers, again, also wear light armor and get a dodge bonus that scales with level at level 2, also to consider.
As for the speed bonus, why not? The default fighter lets a guy in medium armor move at the same speed as a guy in light armor at level 3 and at 7 the guy wearing a tank is moving at the same speed you are as well…while doing cartwheels!
I made sure to space the speed out over long levels a 1st level barbarian still moves faster than you until level 16 (when you get a total +15 Speed) and the monk still beats you by +40 feet; so your still not really infringing on that element. Also since the speed bonus is, at least for medium and small characters, still less than twice your speed it can still be considered Extraordinary (I recall a ‘very’ old, 3.0 edition, statement that had said that the monks speed was considered extraordinary until it was equal to twice its races normal speed, at which point it was considered supernatural).
….There’s nothing more annoying than a guy in his 1-ton armor laughing about how slow you are!
5. AAAHHH! Singleton is so incredibly broken. You can't trade a single +1 bonus to attack and damage for a bonus based on an attribute! If you want Singleton to be a real ability, it'll have to replace ALL of the weapon training progression, and it'll have to start off as 1/2 Int bonus until level 10.
Not to be snaky but you realize that the Gunslinger makes that statement partially false now right? It lets you apply you full Dexterity modifier to your damage rolls at level 5, albeit with only 1 type of firearm but most wont be using more than 1 type anyways. I do understand a bit of making it apply to attack but have always been curious to why there was a fear of adding an additional attack stat. For AC there are almost a dozen different modifiers to add (many can be made permanent too) that can lead to characters/creatures with AC’s in the 60’s. That never made sense to me…
…And I ‘just’ realized this but how many fighters in games have Intelligence scores over 14? Intelligence is the 2nd place dump-stat for fighters, so most wont have get much mileage out of these abilities without spending large amounts of money for stat-boosters.
…Also just realized that elves make good Einhänder fighters. Am not amused by this fact -_-.
6. Uncanny dodge? Nope, that's too powerful, especially to trade for a single progression of armor training. Drop it.
How so? A Barbarian gets it at level 2 has full BAB, d12 Hit Dice, 4+ Skill Points and can use it medium armor (YMMV whether it‘s useable in mithril heavy armor or not). Rouge’s get it at level 4 have average BAB, d8 Hit Dice, 8+ Skill points and a large number of combat and non-combat abilities. I see no reason as to why it would be too powerful 5 levels after another melee-oriented warrior class has been enjoying it for dozens of violent encounters.
Unlike the Barbarian or the Heavy Armored Fighter you cant just laugh off being surrounded or caught surprised without this ability (and if played from 1st level on it will be apparent) your AC will plummet like a rock; the flat-footed wizard will have a higher AC than you.
It also fit’s the theme better than evasion, which is almost useless since your Reflex saves are going to be lower than other classes that get evasion (all who get a ‘Good’ advancement).
Unless you can find a real good reason as to why not I think this one, and its greater version 8 levels latter, will stay.
7. Smooth moves. No. You can NEVER take 10 on anything like this. Drop it.
This one is pretty much there for speed reasons. You may recall a popular (if late) feat in the Player’s Handbook II called Weapon Supremacy that allowed you to do just that (albeit only with Full-Attack actions and only on the second or latter attack), in this case if you wouldn’t succeed at a combat maneuver on a roll of ten then you aren’t likely to succeed anyways. As for the “15” it was more reasonable than 20, and still gave reason to roll dice if that wasn’t enough.
As said this, and its improved ability is just to speed combat up, its not necessary by any means.
8. Surgical precision. Make this one part of Singleton and have them both trade out for all of the weapon training progression.
One of my worries with that method is that it puts a lot of pressure on the player to build their character with this in mind at level 1. Unlike they archetype you were referring to the ‘crossbowman’ the stat in question is neither a primary or secondary, or hell, even Quaternary (Wisdom takes priority over Intelligence for the most part) unless a player puts a lot of mojo into their intelligence score they wont get much out of these abilities (and if they do they will be lacking in a lot of areas to compensate for it).
…Ye know part of my headache comes from the Gunslinger class. Before it came I had a good idea what could constitute an overpower ability, but that class screws everything up. It’s a full BAB class, with d10 Hite Dice, more skill points than a fighter, two good saves, an additional AC bonus that scales with level; and is truthfully the only martial class that can be considered Single Attribute Dependant.
Orcus take them for designing that class!
10. One-armed demon would be alright as a capstone replacing the Fighter's normal capstone. No way you should get it earlier than 20th level though.
The fighter technically has 2 capstone abilities and for the most part neither get much use as most games end by levels 13-15. And since neither ability is as powerful as some of the near-infinite death-effects many of the others have its hardly a big deal.
…Ye know part of my headache comes from the Gunslinger class. Before it came I had a good idea what could constitute an overpower ability, but that class screws everything up. It’s a full BAB class, with d10 Hite Dice, more skill points than a fighter, two good saves, an additional AC bonus that scales with level; and is truthfully the only martial class that can be considered Single Attribute Dependant.
Not so much. May I introduce you to Harsk, Ranger Extraordinaire?
The only difference between the Ranger and the Gunslinger is that they get a scaling damage bonus, which is arguably more useful. They arguably are SAD because they really only need STR or DEX. They can bypass the DEX requirement for TWF, and only need DEX if they're going to be ranged. Con is useful for every class, so no class is really SAD.
Also, yes the Gunslinger gets the scaling AC bonus, but that's just it; it scales while yours just maxes out the INTm level 3 and then scales.
Also, spells.
It's not a bad idea, it just needs a bit of love to get the power curve right.
Edit: Now that I think about it, the scaling AC bonus helps because even though you're "ranged," you're still in melee range for 98% of enemies.
Not so much. May I introduce you to Harsk, Ranger Extraordinaire?
The only difference between the Ranger and the Gunslinger is that they get a scaling damage bonus, which is arguably more useful. They arguably are SAD because they really only need STR or DEX. They can bypass the DEX requirement for TWF, and only need DEX if they're going to be ranged. Con is useful for every class, so no class is really SAD.
Also, yes the Gunslinger gets the scaling AC bonus, but that's just it; it scales while yours just maxes out the INTm level 3 and then scales.
Also, spells.
It's not a bad idea, it just needs a bit of love to get the power curve right.
Edit: Now that I think about it, the scaling AC bonus helps because even though you're "ranged," you're still in melee range for 98% of enemies.
Eh I don’t think people count constitution anymore for ‘dependant’ stats, every class needs it in some fashion, though ranged combatants can get away with having lower scores.
I was mostly referring to the fact that the Gunslinger is (ignoring Grit, as its use varies) built entirely around dexterity, which is a power stat that encompasses (by level 5 at least) attack, damage, AC, Reflex saves, and a half-a-dozen skills. A Strength ranger doesn’t apply his strength to his AC nor does a Dexterity ranger add his dexterity to damage, both make some sort of trade-off, the gunslinger doesn’t.
Also while the Gunslinger can (muskets and the hackbut make it less a problem) be dangerously close to enemies that can hit them in melee think about a ‘melee oriented’ character that ‘has’ to be in the danger zone. To empathize does the image of what amounts to a monk in light armor charging into melee against a hydra not suicidal? That’s sort of the problem with a ‘light armored’ melee warrior, you will constantly be under attacks of opportunity (from creatures with reach) and multi-hitting assaults (from full attacks in general). Honestly I don’t really know if the Intelligence bonus plus the dodge bonus would be of any real help in surviving melee combat (the dodge bonus doesn’t appear until level 8 and I’d figure most people using this will have an Intelligence of 14-16, so your AC is only improved by +3 or +4 total).
Not so much. May I introduce you to Harsk, Ranger Extraordinaire?
The only difference between the Ranger and the Gunslinger is that they get a scaling damage bonus, which is arguably more useful. They arguably are SAD because they really only need STR or DEX. They can bypass the DEX requirement for TWF, and only need DEX if they're going to be ranged. Con is useful for every class, so no class is really SAD.
Also, yes the Gunslinger gets the scaling AC bonus, but that's just it; it scales while yours just maxes out the INTm level 3 and then scales.
Also, spells.
It's not a bad idea, it just needs a bit of love to get the power curve right.
Edit: Now that I think about it, the scaling AC bonus helps because even though you're "ranged," you're still in melee range for 98% of enemies.
Eh I don’t think people count constitution anymore for ‘dependant’ stats, every class needs it in some fashion, though ranged combatants can get away with having lower scores.
I was mostly referring to the fact that the Gunslinger is (ignoring Grit, as its use varies) built entirely around dexterity, which is a power stat that encompasses (by level 5 at least) attack, damage, AC, Reflex saves, and a half-a-dozen skills. A Strength ranger doesn’t apply his strength to his AC nor does a Dexterity ranger add his dexterity to damage, both make some sort of trade-off, the gunslinger doesn’t.
Also while the Gunslinger can (muskets and the hackbut make it less a problem) be dangerously close to enemies that can hit them in melee think about a ‘melee oriented’ character that ‘has’ to be in the danger zone. To empathize does the image of what amounts to a monk in light armor charging into melee against a hydra not suicidal? That’s sort of the problem with a ‘light armored’ melee warrior, you will constantly be under attacks of opportunity (from creatures with reach) and multi-hitting assaults (from full...
I understand what you're saying, and I'd love to prove it with the math, but I'm just not that good with probability. As for your monk example: alone? Yes. With a party? Not in the least bit. Monks are melee oriented and I've DMed monk builds that could one-on-one a hydra. Was it a fluke build I'll probably never see again due to factors circumstantial to that game? Yes.
The constant AoOs can be dealt with easily enough because very few monsters will have Combat Reflexes. That's one AoO even from the Hydra (assuming it doesn't have CR).
As for the hackbut, it's listed as a weapon under the tables but if you read the description, without magic it's really not a viable dungeon delver. Nor mobile combat, which is what the gunslinger is built around.
It is a cool class, but far from the powerhouse you seem to think, and the DPR Olympics have proved that. As for AC, if you're doing it right, AC is meaningless at higher levels.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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So, you actually made very good arguments for several of those abilities. I honestly thought this was a joke post at first, because it seemed absurd, but you make good arguments.
The first thing I want to argue against is the combat maneuver thing. I agree that combat maneuvers are under-utilized in most games, but I've found that the best way to make my characters care about maneuvers is to use them against them. If you make a "steal"-based character and have them literally take all the useful things from your party during a battle, I guarantee you one of those players will want to add Improved Steal to their character the following week. You're still giving two feats for the price of one, and it's just unbalanced.
I think the problem you and I are having is that you're comparing this class power-wise to the Gunslinger, and I absolutely hate that class, because it's overpowered (and i don't really like the idea of guns in a fantasy setting, but that's personal preference).
Now, what you're missing here is that the gunslinger has to invest a significant number of his feats to get multiple attacks per round and be effective (Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.) This is fine because a gunslinger has a relatively small number of feats, so they have to pay the "feat tax" to be useful in combat. This archetype is going to be a melee fighter, which means you don't have that feat tax that is required for ranged attackers, especially gun-weilding ones.
The way you have this archetype written, gives a feat at EVERY LEVEL and then on top of that a huge number of abilities that make melee attacks way more effective. If you wrote up the leveling table, it would look like this:
Level BAB Ability
1st 1 Improved unarmed strike, Combat expertise, bonus feat (+ lvl 1 feat AND human feat if applicable)
2nd 2 Maneuver mastery, bonus feat
3rd 3 Strategic movements (+ feat)
4th 4 Bonus feat
5th 5 Singleton (+ feat)
6th 6 Bonus feat
7th 7 Uncanny Dodge (+ feat)
8th 8 Bonus feat
9th 9 Smooth moves (+ feat)
10th 10 Bonus feat
11th 11 (+ feat)
12th 12 Bonus feat
13th 13 Surgical precision (+ feat)
14th 14 Bonus feat
15th 15 Improved uncanny dodge (+ feat)
16th 16 Bonus feat
17th 17 Perfect moves (+ feat)
18th 18 Bonus feat
19th 19 One-armed demon (+ feat)
20th 20 Bonus feat, Weapon mastery
What you're dropping for all the new abilities are two abilities that scale with level, and then Bravery. That's it. Those two abilities (weapon and armor training) are probably only worth about 3 feats each all together. You can't just trade in a new ability for each level of each one, it's just too powerful. In fact, a few of those abilities you're trading in scale with level too!
When I count the bonus feats you gave at first and second levels, that's a total of 24 feats. This means a feat tax is not a big deal, at all. You'd run out of useful feats at like 10th level probably. What I would suggest is that you need to drop some bonus feats to balance out the abilities you're giving.
Finally, I think you're missing one key point: if you want this archetype to work, you're going to have to require Two-weapon fighting feats to be able to use the off-hand unarmed strike. Anyone taking this archetype should recognize that, so I would say you should flavor some of your abilities to use that.
That’s part of the reason for posting it, so it can be refined. Part of my great annoyance is that while two-handed and two-weapon styles keep getting more and more stuff the single-weapon fighters either get nothing or (as is the case with the One-Weapon Fighter archetype) are incredibly sub-par in comparison as to simply using the default fighter.
1. Professional Warrior will be alright if you give him TWO of those feats, not all three. I'd suggest Improved Unarmed and Combat Expertise. Make him spend a feat on Power Attack.Good point, I was originally wanting to make it so that you didn’t need Power Attack, Combat Expertise, or Improved Unarmed Strike to take Combat Maneuver feat but coulnt figure out a way to properly word it. Analyzing feats I was also somewhat stuck by how Improved Unarmed Strike was somewhat useless 90% of the time as you deal less damage than even a dagger and that its only real effect is that you don’t grant AoO from fighting unarmed. Combat Expertise is, as I hear across the boards, the Red-headed Stepchild of the combat modifier feats (read: Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, Piranha Strike) is seems that people only take it for the prerequisites for other feats (which is a pity as is was a good feat in 3.0). But you make a good point that Power Attack should be taken on their own steam.
2. You can't be giving out two feats for the price of one. It's broken. I would drop it completely.From what I hear most people hate the fact that you have to spend a feat to be able to perform combat maneuvers at all (at least without being beaten down in the process). Just asking but how often do you see combat maneuvers performed in your games?
It would seem that most people would love to use more combat maneuver’s in their games but the lack of feats (and better options for spending those few feats) means most will only focus in only 1 combat maneuver (from what I’m seeing that would be “Trip”, [snark]...
Sorry about my delay in responding, did two overnight shifts and havent had much sleep.
So, you actually made very good arguments for several of those abilities. I honestly thought this was a joke post at first, because it seemed absurd, but you make good arguments.
I make intelligent statements every now and again :p.
The first thing I want to argue against is the combat maneuver thing. I agree that combat maneuvers are under-utilized in most games, but I've found that the best way to make my characters care about maneuvers is to use them against them. If you make a "steal"-based character and have them literally take all the useful things from your party during a battle, I guarantee you one of those players will want to add Improved Steal to their character the following week. You're still giving two feats for the price of one, and it's just unbalanced.
I suppose whether the Combat Maneuver feats are weak or not you are right that two-feats is bit too much. Its true that using combat maneuvers against player will, in theory at least, make them want to use it against ‘them’ but for many groups (or so I’ve seem to read at least) tend to encounter less ‘mundane’ enemies as the level up. Several, in fact nearly all, combat maneuvers are useless against a large number of monsters due to size alone (Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition, Overrun, Trip) since they cant be used against enemies more than 1 size category larger than you. Others are useless by the inherited nature of the enemy: Disarm, Sunder and Steal require the enemy to have weapon/objects in hand; Dirty Trick is useless against enemies immune to the status effects; Grapple and Feint would be useful if not for how many enemies are almost immune due to high modifiers (large creatures get high bonuses against grapple and High BAB monsters make feint difficult at best).
…considering the above, its possible the major reason people seem to be hesitant in taking combat maneuver feats (or at least more than 1) is that they are very much dependant on both the level cap of the game and its theme. At low levels, where all combat maneuvers are useful, there are very few enemies that you will likely encounter that would be outright immune to a combat maneuver since they will likely be no bigger than large and wont have high BAB…but at the mid-to-high levels enemies start to get bigger and start to have BAB higher than the players (outsiders and dragons are particularly guilty of both).
What would you think if instead of feats ‘Broad Maneuvers’ grants the option to choose from a list of abilities that effect combat maneuvers in their favor (depending on the number of abilities that we can come up with, it replaces feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th; instead of all bonus feats).
For instance as pointed out above size is a pretty crippling reason for the lack of combative use, an ability that allows the user to be treated as 1 size category larger for the purpose of being able to use combat maneuvers against that foe (a typical medium-sized character would then be able to use something like Bull Rush against foes as big as Huge)…though an two interesting questions then would be as to whether it would it should effect all combat maneuvers used by that character or simply one with each choice (I’m partial to the former as you don’t actually get the size bonus to CMB and CMD, and larger foes will), and whether or not the it can be taken multiple times (though the bonuses for sizes larger than Large jump dramatically).
Another idea that recalled from way back during the BETA testing for Pathfinder was a rather brilliant (yet sadly unused ) ability for monks that let them deal their unarmed damage after a successful combat maneuver. In this case it could either be: 1) A unarmed strike like its origins. 2) A strike with whatever weapon your using. For obvious balance reason you would not be able ever be able to score a critical hit, regardless of what you rolled, and as normal, any modifiers to your attack/damage rolls (power attack, weapon focus, etc.) would also effect your odds of the maneuver’s success.
…And before you point it out, at the low levels CMD is sometimes less than AC for some monsters/characters…this is true, but as you get higher in levels the CMD of just about every monster has jump greatly (some monsters have CMD’s +20 higher than their AC). Also unless someone takes the Quick Maneuver feats you can only perform 1 combat maneuver each round so its not they can really abuse it much (if you could make the CMD you probably hit their AC with your first attack…and possibly your second).
…Thoughts…
I think the problem you and I are having is that you're comparing this class power-wise to the Gunslinger, and I absolutely hate that class, because it's overpowered (and i don't really like the idea of guns in a fantasy setting, but that's personal preference).
Agreed, but I have no problem with firearms in the setting…just the way they were implemented.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Sorry about my delay in responding, did two overnight shifts and havent had much sleep.
So, you actually made very good arguments for several of those abilities. I honestly thought this was a joke post at first, because it seemed absurd, but you make good arguments.I make intelligent statements every now and again :p.
The first thing I want to argue against is the combat maneuver thing. I agree that combat maneuvers are under-utilized in most games, but I've found that the best way to make my characters care about maneuvers is to use them against them. If you make a "steal"-based character and have them literally take all the useful things from your party during a battle, I guarantee you one of those players will want to add Improved Steal to their character the following week. You're still giving two feats for the price of one, and it's just unbalanced.I suppose whether the Combat Maneuver feats are weak or not you are right that two-feats is bit too much. Its true that using combat maneuvers against player will, in theory at least, make them want to use it against ‘them’ but for many groups (or so I’ve seem to read at least) tend to encounter less ‘mundane’ enemies as the level up. Several, in fact nearly all, combat maneuvers are useless against a large number of monsters due to size alone (Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition, Overrun, Trip) since they cant be used against enemies more than 1 size category larger than you. Others are useless by the inherited nature of the enemy: Disarm, Sunder and Steal require the enemy to have weapon/objects in hand; Dirty Trick is useless against enemies immune to the status effects; Grapple and Feint would be useful if not for how many enemies are almost immune due to high modifiers (large creatures get high bonuses against grapple and High BAB monsters make feint difficult at best).
…considering the above, its possible the major reason people seem to be hesitant in taking combat maneuver feats (or at...
I think giving set bonuses to combat maneuvers (such as the size adjustment that you mentioned) would be a really great way to get fighters to utilize them more. I think you've come up with a great idea there. Perhaps you could have one for trip where a monster with more than two legs is treated as having two less legs (making spiders trippable), etc. There are many ways you could go with it, and they'd all be great I think. Go for it!
Doting for future reference.
Tell me what you think of these, mind its hard to think of new abilities for maneuvers what with large number of feats that already modify them in some fashion…and due the nature of maneuvers I’m not too sure as to what is too much, or too little for each. Problems with wording too. Lots of constructive criticism needed.
…names are also an issue…3_3
Broad Maneuvers
An einhänder fighter learns tricks and methods that allow him to challenge opponents in ways believed to be impossible. At 2nd level and again at levels 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th, a einhänder fighter chooses one of the below abilities to supplement their maneuvers; you cannot chose an ability more than once unless stated otherwise. At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level an einhänder fighter can choose to retrain one of his abilities, exchanging one for another.
This class feature replaces Fighter Bonus feats gained at levels 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th.
Size is Irrelevant: A fighter with this ability counts as one size category larger for the purpose of determining whether or not a combat maneuver can be performed. This ability can be taken multiple times its effects stack.
Conquer the Mountain: Select one combat maneuver, creatures bigger than medium only receive half the size bonus, rounded down, to their Combat Maneuver Defense against that maneuver (to the minimal of +0). If taken twice for the same combat maneuver, creatures bigger than medium receive no bonuses to their Combat Maneuver Defense due to size. This ability to can be taken multiple times.
Avoid the Avalanche: Select one combat maneuver, creatures bigger than medium only receive half the size bonus, rounded down, to their Combat Maneuver Bonus when using that maneuver against you (to the minimal of +0). If taken twice for the same combat maneuver, creatures bigger than medium receive no bonuses to their Combat Maneuver Bonus due to size. This ability to can be taken multiple times.
Push of the Hurricane: On a successful Bull Rush combat maneuver you push the target back 10 feet instead of 5 feet and for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 10 feet. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you only take a –2 penalty for each creature being pushed beyond the first.
Hands like Vices: When performing a grapple or disarm combat maneuver unarmed or with one hand you do not suffer any of the normal penalties from doing so.
You Go Here!: On a successful Reposition combat maneuver you move the target as normal but do not have to remain adjacent to it and can move them into dangerous locations (example: Off a cliff; into a wall of fire; over a landmine). If taken twice the character performing a successful Reposition combat maneuver moves the target 10 feet plus 10 feet for every 5 points in which they beat the target’s CMD. This ability can be taken twice.
Right Bastard: When performing the Dirty Tricks combat maneuver the following conditions are available for selection: Confusion, Fascinated, Staggered.
In addition removing a condition inflicted by a successful Dirty Trick takes a full-round action to remove.
Destabilize: When performing a combat maneuver against a creature with multiple legs or the ‘Stable’ ability, the creature only receives half the bonus against Bull Rush, Trip, Drag, and Reposition combat maneuvers. If taken twice creature with multiple legs or the ‘Stable’ ability, the creature receive no bonus against Bull Rush, Trip, Drag, and Reposition. This ability can be taken twice.
Break It Down: On a successful Sunder combat maneuver you deal double damage to held or worn objects and triple damage to unattended objects. If taken twice a successful Sunder combat maneuver deals triple damage to held or worn objects and quadruple damage to unattended objects. This ability can be taken twice.
Brutal Follow-Up When you successfully perform a combat maneuver you deal your unarmed damage, with any damage modifiers it possess, to that creature. If taken twice you can either deal double your unarmed damage or inflict damage with a single weapon you have on hand. This ability can be taken twice.
Too Smart By Half: When performing a feint combat maneuver you do nor suffer the -4 penalty if the target is non-humanoid, and only suffer a -4 penalty against creatures of animal intelligence. If taken twice you suffer no penalty to feint checks against creatures of animal intelligence. This ability can be taken twice.
Five Finger Discount: When performing a Steal combat maneuver items that are ‘fastened’ do not receive the typical +5 to their CMD. If taken twice the character can steal items that are ‘worn’ (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) albeit with a +10 bonus to the targets CMD. This ability can be taken twice.
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Tell me what you think of these, mind its hard to think of new abilities for maneuvers what with large number of feats that already modify them in some fashion…and due the nature of maneuvers I’m not too sure as to what is too much, or too little for each. Problems with wording too. Lots of constructive criticism needed.
…names are also an issue…3_3
Broad Maneuvers
An einhänder fighter learns tricks and methods that allow him to challenge opponents in ways believed to be impossible. At 2nd level and again at levels 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th, a einhänder fighter chooses one of the below abilities to supplement their maneuvers; you cannot chose an ability more than once unless stated otherwise. At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level an einhänder fighter can choose to retrain one of his abilities, exchanging one for another.This class feature replaces Fighter Bonus feats gained at levels 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th.
Right Bastard: When performing the Dirty Tricks combat maneuver the following conditions are available for selection: Confusion, Fascinated, Staggered.
In addition removing a condition inflicted by a successful Dirty Trick takes a full-round action to remove.
First of all, my apologies on the thread necro, but I've been working on a Duelist, and I have to say, I'm pleased to see support for both Einhanders and combat maneuvers. Especially Dirty Trick. You aren't a master swordsman unless you cheat! That said, I have an issue with the full-round clause on Right Bastard. It kind of makes half of Greater Dirty Trick useless. Maybe make it a standard action and have it stack with the increase from GDT?
Another idea is to make the archetype, like the fighting style, a bit more cerebral, and reward players that get creative with bonuses to maneuvers that benefit from tactical thinking, rewarding vivid description and asking questions about the enemy's body and equipment and the terrain. Using dirty trick as an example, you're up against a Tiefling that makes excellent use of natural attacks, particularly his bite. Thinking quickly, you dance around behind him and cut a small tear into his cloak, then grab it and wrap it around his head and hook the snag you made onto one of his elbow spurs. Voila! He can't use his bite, he's blinded, and he gets a small penalty to one of his claw attacks! Is something like that doable?
On the dodge bonus from Strategic Movements, maybe it could be worked like Canny Defense, only applying no matter the weapon you use? That is, the Intelligence bonus is add per level, for example, if you are at lvl 6 (three levels after gaining Strategic Movements) and have a +4 Int Mod, you only get a +3 dodge bonus from your Int. Essentially pulling the bonus from a "dodge pool" for lack of a better term.
Finally, Smooth Moves and Perfect Moves...I don't like them. They just seem kind of superfluous to me. Combat maneuvers are kind of like special attacks, and I can't think of anything that lets you take 10 on attack rolls.