Again, yeah that the logical assumption. Do you really think a $1 bill costs more to make than a $20 bill. Your just being deliberatly obtuse.Yeah cause thats the logical assumption.Gold coins take longer to cast than copper coins, if you'd like a less outrageous example.
He is referring to the fact that the formula for determining how long it takes to craft something is based on it's market value. Objects with a higher market value take longer to make.
Fantastic materials like mithril, adamantine and dragon skin are (in thier descriptions) rare and uncommon materials. It is not unreasonable to assume that objects made of these materials have hugely inflated prices in relation to thier cost of manufacture.
Everyone is going to have thier own "realism level" when it comes to how long it takes to craft these make-believe materials into something. I believe the current crafting rules are not flexible enough to accomodate these different views.
I read some of this thread....but would like to add something about firearms touch attacks. You know how about instead of using big creatures with low touch ACs GMs actualy got a little creative and adapt the adventures to their players and use creatures with high touch ACs. It is not that hard to boost a creatures touch AC....just swapo out some feats. Also....UC also has a ton of spells that screw over firearms...use them.
As for the no need to make craft checks for firearms...good. The craft rules is the only part of the game I don't like. Seeing that feat has inspired me to create feats for every other mundane crafting skills that does the same thing. I don't do that with magic items though...that would be just insane(heck I houseruled that DC right up.
Also I saw a couple of posts by the OP complaining about hve to altering the rules for a $40 book....I see adding a sentence( to add crafts checks for making firearms and bullets) and removing the section on touch attack. That really is not that big of a thing to complain about.
Alright I'll throw up some DPR comparisons for an archer and a gunslinger. Both are damage-focused classes and builds. I'll go with level 12, with normal APL. I'll put each of the builds up against three different enemies to compare DPR. I think I'm optimizing both builds fairly well.
Specifically, the weapon will be a +2 lucky pistol. The overall misfire will be on a 1 only.
Stats:
STR XX
DEX 20+2levels+4belt=26
CON XX
INT XX
WIS XX
CHA XX
Equipment [108k]:
+2 lucky pistol [19.3k]
+3 cloak of resist [9k]
+1 Ioun Stone of Resist [4k]
+1 Ioun Stone of Attack [4k]
+1 Ioun Stone of Insight AC [5k]
+4 belt of DEX [16k]
+2 ring of deflect AC [8k]
+2 amulet of natural AC [8k]
Celestial Armor [22.4k]
Miscellaneous and ammo ~10k
Relevant Feats:
Weapon Focus
Point Blank
Precise
Rapid
Improved Crit
Clustered Shots
Crit Focus
Deadly Aim
Attack modifiers
12 BAB
1 point Blank
2 enhancement
8 DEX
1 focus
1 competence
-2 rapid
-4 deadly
Damage Modifiers
8 DEX
2 enhancement
1 point blank
Within 30, Ranged touch +19/+19/+14/+9 1D8+19 (19-20/x4)
STR 15+1 level+2 Stone
DEX 20+2 levels+4 belt
CON XX
INT XX
WIS XX
CHA XX
A little more MAD here. Gunslinger technically needs WIS, but he doesn't really need much for his actual DPR as it mostly just gives him utility.
Equipment [108k]:
+3 composite longbow (+4 STR) [18.85k]
+4 belt of DEX [16k]
Gloves of Dueling [15k]
+3 cloak of resist [9k]
+2 stone of STR [8k]
+1 stone of saves [4k]
+1 stone of attack [4k]
Celestial Armor [22.4k]
+1 ring of deflect [2k]
+1 amulet of natural AC [2k]
Other and ammo ~6k
Less AC, but it's still good, especially for a non-frontliner
Relevant Feats:
1. Point Blank
1. Precise
1. Rapid
2. Weapon Focus
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Specialization
5. XX
6. Many
7. Clustered Shots
8. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Crit Focus
10. Improved Crit
11. Improved Precise
12. Greater Weapon Spec
Attack Modifiers
12 BAB
-4 deadly
-2 rapid
5 weapon training
1 competence
2 focus
8 dex
1 point blank [if within 30]
3 enhancement
Damage Modifiers
5 specialization
3 STR
3 enhancement
8 deadly
1 point blank
Within 30, ranged +26(x2shot)/+26/+21/+16 1D8+20 (19-20/x3)
So now let's set up a bunch of opponents:
First, some CR 10's. A lot of encounters have enemies a few CR lower than the party's level, and multiple enemies.
1. Clay Golem: AC 24 TCH 8 DR 10/Adamant+Bludg
2. Rakshasa: AC 25 TCH 16 DR 15/Piercing+Good
Next, some CR 12's. A lot of battles will have CR-equivalent enemies.
3. Lich [Human Lich Necromancer 11]: AC 23, TCH 14, DR 15 Bludgeon+Mag
4. Mature Adult Black Dragon: AC 31 TCH 10, DR 10/Mag
Next, a CR 14, for a difficult enemy
5. Handmaiden Devil: AC 31 TCH 17 DR 10/Good
Since clustered shots is so good against DR, I'm going to assume both builds aren't even wasting a turn on taking out and using an oil of bless weapon against the folks with DR/good. I'll assume the archer is using blunt arrows if that's all he needs to bypass DR (Lich). So now, the DPR Results:
1: Gunslinger 90.31, Archer 115.93
2: Gunslinger 81.02, Archer 108.24
3: Gunslinger 97.24, Archer 128.63
4: Gunslinger 99.81, Archer 95.06
5: Gunslinger 83.70, Archer 85.19
Against the High-AC opponents, the two builds are close in damage output, but the gunslinger falls behind on more typical enemies.
Also, a full 18.5% of rounds, the gunslinger's gun will misfire, and I have assumed that the gunslinger will stop firing at that point in the round. It will then take a standard or a move action (if a grit is spent) to fix the gun, meaning at most one attack the next round (if it misfired on the first attack, this won't be a problem).
Note that especially at level 13 and above, the Musket Master archetype will far and away outperform the normal gunslinger in damage. A musket master with a double barreled musket at level 13 could fire twice as many shots as a pistol (since he can shoot both barrels at the same time and can reload them both as a free action with paper carts), never misfire, and do 1D12+21 instead of 1D8+19 damage. THAT could be called overpowered, but the normal gunslinger is not overpowered.
If you're wondering how I calculated any of those DPR numbers, ask for a specific one and I'll provide the math.
Attack Modifiers
12 BAB
-4 deadly
-2 rapid
-2 many
5 weapon training
1 competence
2 focus
8 dex
1 point blank [if within 30]
3 enhancement
Manyshot doesn't have a -2 penalty to attack.
Ok, just a quick question.
Deadly Aim cannot be used with firearms because they use Touch attack rules right? Same with bombs?
Can't quote the exact rule but but i believe there is one in the first part of the firearms section stating that you can use deadly aim with firearms.
Manyshot doesn't have a -2 penalty to attack.Attack Modifiers
12 BAB
-4 deadly
-2 rapid
-2 many
5 weapon training
1 competence
2 focus
8 dex
1 point blank [if within 30]
3 enhancement
Whoops. Managed to fix the problem in my previous post and calculate the fixed DPRs for the archer.
Can't quote the exact rule but but i believe there is one in the first part of the firearms section stating that you can use deadly aim with firearms.Ok, just a quick question.
Deadly Aim cannot be used with firearms because they use Touch attack rules right? Same with bombs?
I was unaware of that rule, but I just looked it up and there it was.
"but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purpose of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim." I've redone the gunslinger DPR with this in mind, and posted the fixed results in my previous post.
Another question
So with rapid reload and the paper ammo it turns it into a free action, so does that mean you could reload a double barreled pistol?
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen
type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand orlight crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or onehanded
firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks
of opportunity.
Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and
either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
-----------------------------
I don't think paper ammo decreases load time.
edit:If paper ammo, and the paper cartridge are different I might need a page number to see how they match up.
Another question
So with rapid reload and the paper ammo it turns it into a free action, so does that mean you could reload a double barreled pistol?
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen
type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or
light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or onehanded
firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks
of opportunity.Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and
either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.-----------------------------
I don't think paper ammo decreases load time.edit:If paper ammo, and the paper cartridge are different I might need a page number to see how they match up.
All alchemical ammo reduces reload time one step. The question is if the different effects stack or if you can only reload one step faster.
@wraithstrike
You should be reading the general rule on alchemical cartidges:
prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets,
sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then
wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or
tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the
simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black
powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges
make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a
firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard
action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move
action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable.
The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge
increases as listed in each entry.
Omelite, that's an interesting presentation against monsters, but how do the classes fair against classed NPCs?
If you would be so kind, would you please run those builds/numbers against characters from the NPC Gallery?
So if it takes a free action, can you reload both barrels of the pistol?
Assuming you are wielding a double-barreled pistol, have invested in feats and other resources (namely quick reload and alchemical cartridges), and can spend two free actions, then yes.
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Omelite, that's an interesting presentation against monsters, but how do the classes fair against classed NPCs?
If you would be so kind, would you please run those builds/numbers against characters from the NPC Gallery?
Even better, most of the Gallery NPCs are softballs meant to represent generic figures.
Now, Rival Guide NPCs... that would be interesting.
Right now by RAW you can reload as a free action since the bonus/ability is not from the same source. Unless ruling is made similar to the keen+improved crit does not work, then it works. I think this helps the gunslinger, but at 12gp a shot it can add up. I know that when I run archers I can run through arrows rather quickly. The misfire chance also goes up. I still think the archer comes out ahead in DPR rating, and in a game since the gunslinger only gets the benefit of touch AC within a certain range, IIRC. If they get the touch AC anyway then I would take the gun with the longest range I could find and fire from safety.
Omelite, that's an interesting presentation against monsters, but how do the classes fair against classed NPCs?
If you would be so kind, would you please run those builds/numbers against characters from the NPC Gallery?
Even better, most of the Gallery NPCs are softballs meant to represent generic figures.
Now, Rival Guide NPCs... that would be interesting.
Ohhhhhhh.....
Challenge extented.........
Omelite, that's an interesting presentation against monsters, but how do the classes fair against classed NPCs?
If you would be so kind, would you please run those builds/numbers against characters from the NPC Gallery?
Very well.
Like with the monsters I'll look at two CR 10's:
1N: General - AC 23 TCH 13
2N: Guild Master - AC 22 TCH 15
Two CR 12's [actually there was only one so I'll go with an 11 and a 12 here]:
3N: Saint - AC 22 TCH 9
4N: High Priest - AC 15 TCH 10 [lolwut CR12?]
and one CR 14:
5N: Master - AC 25 TCH 24 [ouch on TCH]
So here's the DPR for each of them:
1N: Gunslinger 105.66, Archer 128.63
2N: Gunslinger 103.64, Archer 130.10
3N: Gunslinger 107.67, Archer 130.10
4N: Gunslinger 107.67, Archer 135.00
5N: Gunslinger 75.22, Archer 120.54
Also I should note that my DPR numbers for the Gunslinger were too low on my previous post. I was using a 10% misfire when it's only 5% with this setup. For instance, against enemy 5 it would have been 90.46 DPR rather than 83.70.
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Didn't you do a mistake with the way you calculated the archer's damage ?
At first I found the DPR numbers pretty high (the gunslinger is supposed to outdamage more often or to keep a closer gap), but then I saw you forgot to add the weapon training bonus to damage... which is of +5 per arrow, so a 25% increase in damage.
Attack Modifiers
12 BAB
-4 deadly
-2 rapid
+5 weapon training
+1 competence
+2 focus + greater focus
+8 dex
+1 point blank [if within 30]
+3 enhancement
=> +26
Damage Modifiers
+4 specialization + greater specialization
+5 weapon training
+4 STR
+3 enhancement
+8 deadly
+1 point blank
=> +25
So : +26(x2shot)/+26/+21/+16 1D8+25 (19-20/x3)
Concerning the Gunslinger :
- You can trade one point of AC (Ioun Stone) and get your pistol at a lower price (the battered first level pistol is free, thus a +3 pistol would only cost 18000 + 300 from MWK) to gain 6000 GP more, add it with the 10000 left so you can instead get a +3 RELIABLE pistol (or you would always have to deal with a 1-2 misfire range, which we are trying to avoid, but if you know how to calculate the risk in the DPR then go for it), and 2000 GP left for scrap. By going from +2 lucky pistol (1-2 misfire from the moment you reload) to +3 reliable pistol (from 0 to 1 misfire), it would give :
Attack modifiers
12 BAB
+1 point Blank
+3 enhancement
+8 DEX
+1 focus
+1 competence
-2 rapid
-4 deadly
=> +20
Damage Modifiers
+8 DEX
+8 deadly
+3 enhancement
+1 point blank
=> +20
So : Within 30, Ranged touch +20/+20/+15/+10 1D8+20 (19-20/x4)
You should check with this. :)
Didn't you do a mistake with the way you calculated the archer's damage ?
Derp, looks like I did forget the +5 damage from weapon training. Note that even with that mistake, the archer still outdamaged the gunslinger on average. Now his damage is 1D8+25.
Also, I meant for it to be a reliable pistol all along (no DPR advantage for a lucky pistol, after all). My bad there. And you're right that he could afford a +3 reliable instead of +2, so I'll go with that and his damage and attack are now 1 higher.
First I'll recap the enemies:
1. AC 24 TCH 8 DR 10/Adamantine and Bludgeoning [Clay Golem]
2. AC 25 TCH 16 DR 15/Piercing and Good [Rakshasa]
3. AC 23, TCH 14 [Lich]
4. AC 31 TCH 10 [Mature Adult Black Dragon]
5. AC 31 TCH 17 DR 10/Good [Handmaiden Devil]
1N. AC 23 TCH 13 [General]
2N. AC 22 TCH 15 [Guild Master]
3N. AC 22 TCH 9 [Saint]
4N. AC 15 TCH 10 [High Priest]
5N. AC 25 TCH 24 [Master] - Has Deflect Arrows
And the attack patterns for each build:
+3 Reliable Pistol +20/+20/+15/+10 1D8+20 (19-20/x4) [v. touch AC, misfires on a 1]
+3 Composite Longbow [+4 STR] +26/+26/+21/+16 1D8+25 (19-20/x3) [first shot manyshots]
FIXED DPR FOR BOTH CLASSES
1. Gunslinger 102.75, Archer 141.63
2. Gunslinger 93.80, Archer 133.39
3. Gunslinger 110.15, Archer 154.88
4. Gunslinger 112.25, Archer 114.46
5. Gunslinger 97.19, Archer 104.59
1N. Gunslinger 111.20, Archer 154.88
2N. Gunslinger 109.10, Archer 156.65
3N. Gunslinger 112.25, Archer 156.65
4N. Gunslinger 112.25, Archer 162.55
5N. Gunslinger 49.15, Archer 85.16
Note that the numbers for the Master (who has deflect arrows) assume that the Gunslinger/Archer is the first person to make a ranged attack against the master during each turn. If someone else made a ranged attack which was deflected already, then DPR would increase by about 30 for the gunslinger and by about 66 for the archer.
Again, I'll note that the gunslinger numbers assume that if and when a misfire occurs, you stop firing for the rest of the round. If misfires simply didn't happen, the numbers would be ~6-8% higher than those I listed. Still in almost all cases lower than damage from an archer.
Also note that each full attack uses an average of 22.26gp for the gunslinger if he crafts the paper carts himself while the archer is using 0.25gp each round if he buys the arrows (except against the lich and other /bludgeoning DR - then he uses 0.5gp each round).
Cheese might allow for the gunslinger to potentially double his shots by using a double-barreled pistol; since his reload is a free action he could reload both barrels with paper carts between shots. Even with a reliable pistol, it would still have a 1-2 misfire, though, and a chance to misfire on each of the 8 shots. I'll roll up the DPR for it in my next post for my own and anyone else's curiosity.
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I don't know if you accounted it, but the Master can use Deflect Arrows against both the first attack of an archer (manyshot is clearly defined as only one attack, and DA allows to deflect "one ranged attack", so both arrows are deflected) and a gunslinger's shot (since bullets can be deflected).
If the gunslinger keeps firing after a misfire, he would have a higher DPR, but a lot of penalties, and a greater misfire risk applied to his attacks. :)
I don't know if you accounted it, but the Master can use Deflect Arrows against both the first attack of an archer (manyshot is clearly defined as only one attack, and DA allows to deflect "one ranged attack", so both arrows are deflected) and a gunslinger's shot (since bullets can be deflected).
If the gunslinger keeps firing after a misfire, he would have a higher DPR, but a lot of penalties, and a greater misfire risk applied to his attacks. :)
I hadn't taken deflect arrows into account.
The gunslinger's DPR against him would be 49.15*, while the archer's DPR against him would be 85.16. Updating the above post now.
*this is using a figure for "chance the gunslinger will hit AC at least once" that is not 100% accurate (misfires and the first hit not being 95% likely to hit made the equation for that fairly messy so I approximated slightly). The resulting figure should be off by no more than 1%.
Anyway, here's DPR for the double-barreled pistol wielder. Same build as the other gunslinger, but a +3 reliable double-barreled pistol instead.
Note that this assumes the barrels of a double-barreled pistol can be fired as a full attack so long as reloading is a free action
Attack routine:
+3 Reliable Double-Barreled Pistol +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 1D8+20 (19-20/x4) [v. touch AC, misfires on a 1-2]
DPR for Double-Barreled Gunslinger:
1. 156.35 (archer was 141.63)
2. 138.65 (archer was 133.39)
3. 158.42 (archer was 154.88)
4. 164.11 (archer was 114.46)
5. 140.02 (archer was 104.59)
1N. 160.03 (archer was 154.88)
2N. 155.29 (archer was 156.65)
3N. 165.35 (archer was 156.65)
4N. 164.11 (archer was 162.55)
5N. 73.83 (archer was 85.16)
Note that this build will chew through paper cartridges, and it will also only make it through each full attack without misfiring 43% of the time, so not calculated is that fact that on subsequent rounds it's likely you'll have to fix the weapon.
The DPR is better than an archer, but not by much, and a lot of gold is being spent on ammunition even if you make it yourself. I'd say probably not worth it, and honestly it's pretty cheesy loading and firing 8 barrels per round.
For those who don't mind the cheese, at level 13 and onward, a Musket Master with a double-barreled musket will far and away outperform this. Rather than a 10% chance to misfire on every shot, he'll have a 0% chance to misfire. He'll do 1D12 instead of 1D8, he'll get an additional +2 damage from a class feature, and he won't have to waste an enhancement bonus on reliable so he'll get another +1 damage and attack. His DPR at level 13 would be well over 200 against most of these enemies, and he doesn't ever have to waste actions fixing his gun.
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These results are really surprising. When I did the DPR with NPC array stats, the gunslinger didn't look so much lower in terms of damage, and even could outdamage an archer by a pinch of points if taking the risk to be at close range, and only against especially low touch-AC creatures (without adding the damage penalty from misfiring, though).
I wonder what would be the DPR of a pistolero with a free +3d6 by bullet and using two pistols - or even worse, two double-barreled pistols (admitted, shooting with both barrels and both hands is a base -8 to attack, but still).
Beware while calculating the DPR with double-barrel, even if I myself am interested in the results, the way they really work with normal attack/full-attack/vital strike has yet to be completely clarified in the FAQ or errata.
These results are really surprising. When I did the DPR with NPC array stats, the gunslinger didn't look so much lower in terms of damage, and even could outdamage an archer by a pinch of points if taking the risk to be at close range, and only against especially low touch-AC creatures (without adding the damage penalty from misfiring, though).
I wonder what would be the DPR of a pistolero with a free +3d6 by bullet and using two pistols - or even worse, two double-barreled pistols (admitted, shooting with both barrels and both hands is a base -8 to attack, but still).
Beware while calculating the DPR with double-barrel, even if I myself am interested in the results, the way they really work with normal attack/full-attack/vital strike has yet to be completely clarified in the FAQ or errata.
Yes we really need a clarification on how double barrel pistols work.
These results are really surprising. When I did the DPR with NPC array stats, the gunslinger didn't look so much lower in terms of damage, and even could outdamage an archer by a pinch of points if taking the risk to be at close range, and only against especially low touch-AC creatures (without adding the damage penalty from misfiring, though).
I wonder what would be the DPR of a pistolero with a free +3d6 by bullet and using two pistols - or even worse, two double-barreled pistols (admitted, shooting with both barrels and both hands is a base -8 to attack, but still).
Beware while calculating the DPR with double-barrel, even if I myself am interested in the results, the way they really work with normal attack/full-attack/vital strike has yet to be completely clarified in the FAQ or errata.
The risk of misfiring that I calculated in didn't actually affect the values all that much for the normal gunslinger.
A pistolero would get a slight damage bump from his pistol training giving him an extra +1 to damage. He'd also do more damage if he used the up close and deadly deed, but I'm not keen on using such limited-use abilities as part of DPR. I mean, if you're using 4 grit every turn to get +3D6 on each of your bullets, you'll be out of grit in no time.
Also at level 13, like the musket master, he would no longer have to worry about misfiring, which is nice.
Note that using two pistols is a no-go, because you need a free hand to reload. You could dual-wield and full attack with some pepperboxes that you reloaded before the battle, but then once they're empty you need to stow one and reload them each individually.
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A pistolero would get a slight damage bump from his pistol training giving him an extra +1 to damage. He'd also do more damage if he used the up close and deadly deed, but I'm not keen on using such limited-use abilities as part of DPR. I mean, if you're using 4 grit every turn to get +3D6 on each of your bullets, you'll be out of grit in no time.
Signature Deed feat : gaining +3d6 then doesn't cost any grit point.
Note that using two pistols is a no-go, because you need a free hand to reload. You could dual-wield and full attack with some pepperboxes that you reloaded before the battle, but then once they're empty you need to stow one and reload them each individually.
About this, please check my attack method using weapon cords :
Weapon cords =>
1) Fire your main weapon.
2) Free action reload your main weapon (off-hand free with a pistol tied with a weapon cord).
3) Fire your main weapon.
4) Free action reload your main weapon.
(Rinse and repeat until no more primary attacks.)
5) Free action drop your main weapon, tied with a weapon cord.
6) Swift action draw your off-hand weapon thanks to the cord.
7) Fire your off-hand weapon.
8) Free action reload your off-hand weapon.
9) Fire your off-hand weapon.
(Repeat until no more attack. Use off-hand as your main weapon during next round, and use your swift action to get back to your real main weapon.)
Just change the fluff if you prefer the idea of shooting with two guns at once instead of one after the other. If the system allows you this by crunch, it shouldn't affect the fun you get by fluff.
Or, if you find this silly (even if by RAW it is 100% legal), here is another one =
Just drop and quickdraw pistols while you shoot. Shoot with main hand, reload, shoot, reload, drop, quick draw off-hand, shoot, reload, repeat.
So firstly it seems you can't do basic math very well and it takes a long time to make MITHRIL FULL PLATE. Yeah wow, your right I guess thats a completely non-functional craft rule, why do you think you should be able to just whip out mithril full plate?
In your haste to insult him over a trivial difference in the number of weeks you seem to have completely missed the point, which is that from the perspective of a PC taking dozens of weeks to craft a non-magical item renders the craft skill effectively useless for anything expensive.
I wasn't commenting on the general system, just the fact that Gunsmithing bypasses all the previous checks and balances for crafting items.
You make that sound like a bad thing. It seems like an improvement to me.
Except its ok when people insult me and my math skills, just not when I do it. Whatever.
I don't believe I said that anywhere. If I happen to be responding to someone who insulted you I can always comment on it then, but at the moment I'm not.
It might be an improvement, but its not fair/balanced with any other character that crafts things especially characters that make magic items. They spent a feat, why don't they get to bypass all skill checks.
When it comes to mundane items, the fairness/balance issue is so minor as to be inconsequential. As to magic items, I don't see anything which allows a gun user to ignore the usual rules for crafting magic weapons (correct me if I'm wrong) so what is the difference between turning a masterwork sword into a magical one and turning a masterwork gun into a magical one?
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So we're discussing crafting again?
I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.
In short, they aren't.
I wasn't commenting on the general system, just the fact that Gunsmithing bypasses all the previous checks and balances for crafting items.
How about the fact that no other class in the game has to spend 11g at the least per shot if they just buy their ammo?
If we assume three first level ranged characters, Gunslinger Bow user, Crossbow user, lets say over one day and each takes 10 shots.
The gun user needs 110g to buy his ten shots at this level.
The bow user needs 5s to pay for his shots.
The crossbow user needs 1g to pay of his shots.
So the check and balance is that anyone else can just buy their weapon and ammo for a small amount and only need craft for complex or rare items.
A pistolero would get a slight damage bump from his pistol training giving him an extra +1 to damage. He'd also do more damage if he used the up close and deadly deed, but I'm not keen on using such limited-use abilities as part of DPR. I mean, if you're using 4 grit every turn to get +3D6 on each of your bullets, you'll be out of grit in no time.Signature Deed feat : gaining +3d6 then doesn't cost any grit point.
This is admittedly powerful. Adding an extra 10.5 damage to each attack (but not multiplying it on crit damage) would probably put the pistolero ahead of the archer for DPR. I might crunch it later. Of course, this is not really on the topic of the brokenness of guns or the gunslinger in general.
Note that using two pistols is a no-go, because you need a free hand to reload. You could dual-wield and full attack with some pepperboxes that you reloaded before the battle, but then once they're empty you need to stow one and reload them each individually.About this, please check my attack method using weapon cords :
I was under the impression that you had to make iterative attacks from highest BAB to lowest. If that's incorrect though, and you're able to make your attacks in any order you want, then either the weapon cords solution or the quickdraw/drop solution should work. Of course, with quickdraw/drop you're ending the round with one of your weapons on the floor, and not only does it take a move action to pick up but it's also vulnerable to AoE attacks at that point.
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So we're discussing crafting again?
I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.
In short, they aren't.
Unless you misfire and then they are ;D
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I read some of this thread....but would like to add something about firearms touch attacks. You know how about instead of using big creatures with low touch ACs GMs actualy got a little creative and adapt the adventures to their players and use creatures with high touch ACs.
So now yer gonna insult my creativity? Why should I alter a printed adventure? Just because Paizo can't build gun rules that follow basic game balance issues? If I wanted to do that I would just write my own adventures. BTW, what are those high touch AC monsters that I should be using? Quicklings, air elementals, and ghosts. Yay what a roster.
Also I saw a couple of posts by the OP complaining about hve to altering the rules for a $40 book....I see adding a sentence( to add crafts checks for making firearms and bullets) and removing the section on touch attack. That really is not that big of a thing to complain about.
I don't have to change anything really from the Core Book, APG, GMG, UM, and other than a few poorly designed encounters from a couple of AP haven't had to change much from those.
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So we're discussing crafting again?
I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.
In short, they aren't.
Right when you compare apples to oranges.
Which I was fine with but really you should compare two fighters, or two gunslingers.
But whatever, I'm done trying to convince you people. Yer fine with the touch attack mechanic as a feature of firearms, I get it. That doesn't mean your right though.
It would be better as a Gunslinger class feature.
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Why does mithral full plate take weeks upon weeks longer to make then regular full plate? Hell mithril is supposed to be lighter and easier to work with, yet it takes forever longer to craft then a steel set of full plate. How does that make any sense?I'm not aware of any source that says that mithral is easier to work with than steel.
It's not he just made that up.
Right when you compare apples to oranges.So we're discussing crafting again?
I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.
In short, they aren't.
Well, you had decided to judge them and the gunslinger class while purposefully ignoring the two balancing factors involved in firearms (misfire and cost). You can't compare damage per round involving firearms if you don't account for the loss of attacks caused by misfiring. You can't compare archery to firearms and not account for one of the most basic rules involved with firearms; that they break and explode.
You're making comparisons that insist that a 5%-15% misfire chance, which is an automatic miss mind you, shouldn't be counted in the results. That's like claiming that it's perfectly safe to hold plutonium rods in your bare hands for hours, so long as you discount any damage done by radiation. If you even comment on the benefits of a critical hit, then you have to admit to dangers of misfire because it happens as or more often than a critical hit.
If you've decided that you want to abandon this line of discussion and get back to the smithing issue, that's fine. But your numbers don't hold up so you can't claim that the people disagreeing with you are wrong. In fact, the people who have done numbers seem to have shown otherwise.
As for ranged touch attack being a class feature, it isn't needed. Pistols that misfire once have a 25% chance of misfiring again if you don't have Gun Training. That's 1 out of 4. A pepperbox or musket has a 30% chance of a second misfire, and a double musket a 35% chance. And all of that is before you add the extra 5% for using paper cartridges. That is a major disadvantage, as they have no way to fix the gun in battle without taking a specific feat just to do it (with their uber low grit dedicated to it).
Gun Training makes gunslingers far better at guns that anyone else, but with the exception of the Pistolero and Musketeer they don't escape misfire. The Pistolero and Musketeer get the equivalent of a +3 magic item at 13th level, but that isn't an issue with firearms, that's an issue with those two archetypes. It takes a lot of work and money to escape misfire, money which other classes can use to pull ahead of in damage output.
Unless they were broken and you misfired.... then they're a mis-fireball....Unless you misfire and then they are ;DSo we're discussing crafting again?
I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.
In short, they aren't.
I stand corrected and bow to your unmeasurable wisdom, Good Sirs. ;)
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Well, you had decided to judge them and the gunslinger class while purposefully ignoring the two balancing factors involved in firearms (misfire and cost). You can't compare damage per round involving firearms if you don't account for the loss of attacks caused by misfiring. You can't compare archery to firearms and not account for one of the most basic rules involved with firearms; that they break and explode.
You're making comparisons that insist that a 5%-15% misfire chance, which is an automatic miss mind you, shouldn't be counted in the results. That's like claiming that it's perfectly safe to hold plutonium rods in your bare hands for hours, so long as you discount any damage done by radiation. If you even comment on the benefits of a critical hit, then you have to admit to dangers of misfire because it happens as or more often than a critical hit.
If you've decided that you want to abandon this line of discussion and get back to the smithing issue, that's fine. But your numbers don't hold up so you can't claim that the people disagreeing with you are wrong. In fact, the people who have done numbers seem to have shown otherwise.
I'm not the one who derailed this thread by bringing up again. This was started to discuss the Gunsmithing feat. Just willing to argue.
And if some of you can't get past an ironic thread title, then please go away. It was to get attention, get over it.