Isn't greater reliable a +3 enhancement?Yes. Pistoleros use +4 double pistols at the same point that gun fighters (or anyone else) uses +1 greater reliable double pistols.
Which balances out against the damage bonuses and to hit bonuses that the fighter has, and also means that the fighter doesn't need to rely on feats to prevent misfires. Meanwhile, the Pistolero has an extremely limited amount of grit that leaves him choosing between stopping misfires and using his other deeds.
Stop trolling this is such an insignificant part of the game it doesn't even affect the overall game in any shape or form.In your opinion.
My opinion is that because Paizo made their crappy touch AC mechanic now their guns are unbalanced in THE GAME. If you can't understand that then fine. Its a game, every option within that game should be fairly balanced against every other option. Firearms and Gunslingers aren't. End of story.
To acheive a similar effect with bows its 1,006 gp per shot (Brilliant Energy arrows), and those just don't work on constructs and undead.
Every other item in the game needs checks to craft, not guns (with Gunsmithing).
The gunslinger should have 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, like the Inquisitor. Not full BAB and d10 (and two good saves). He's a ranged combatant he doesn't have heavy armor proficiency and shouldn't be taking attacks frequently anyway. The magus has 3/4 BAB and d8 HD and he's expected to be in melee.
Poor design, and this is what I pay for?
I want to be able to use the material in the books I buy. I don't want to hand my players a book and say "yeah use this stuff, except anything to do with that one entire class and everything associated with their tools". Thats lame.
I didn't have to do it with Ultimate Magic, APG or ANY OTHER BOOK Paizo has published.
Costs and misfires are poor balances for firearms. The cost doesnt mean anything to any character over 4th or 5th level, and the misfire chances are crap, it just jams on the first misfire and if your dumb enough to keep firing that weapon then you deserve to have it blow up in your face. And besides I don't count on rolling 1s just like I don't count on rolling 20s. 9-11 is what your gonna roll most often (thats why its called average). So yeah when all you can do is roll 1s and 2s all night long guns suck, but guess what evrything sucks when you roll nnothing but crap. Its not a balance.
Nobody complained about guns until they instituted their new gun rules...
I meant the crafting.
Isn't greater reliable a +3 enhancement?Yes. Pistoleros use +4 double pistols at the same point that gun fighters (or anyone else) uses +1 greater reliable double pistols.
Okay that's what I thought just wanted to be sure. So at level 13 (just to allow for pistolero which personally I like) both the fighter and the gunslinger are going to have non-exploding guns. The fighter is looking at +1 distance greater reliability doubles and the gunslinger is looking at +4 distance doubles.
Feat wise they are going to come out pretty even -- both need most of the same feats (twf chain, precise and improved precise, deadly aim) while the fighter has more he's going to burn them gaining proficiency and his fighter specific feats. Both can be immune to AoOs from shooting with someone on top of them with feats so they are coming out even there.
Gunslinger does have some extras he can do -- I will never even try to dispute that... but fighter can improve his combat ability with his guns more with weapon master archetype. This will also allow him to get away from some misfires too with his reliable strike ability (twice per day at level 13). So throwing on some duelist gloves he's looking at a +5 from weapon training.
So if their dex is even we can easily see a total dex modifier of +9 (20 base +3 +6 from a belt means 29).
We then have
BAB: +13 (same for both)
Dex: +9 (same for both)
Point Blank: +1 (same for both)
Two weapon fighting: -4 (same for both)
Double shot: -4 (same for both)
Deadly Aim: -4 (same for both)
Rapid Shot: -2 (same for both)
So at this point we have:
+22-14= +8/+8/+8/+4/+4/-1/-1 twice for both
Damage: weapon +9
Now for the differences:
Enhancement: +4 (gunslinger) +1(fighter)
Weapon training: +0 to hit +9 damage (gunslinger) +5 (fighter)
weapon focus Feats: +1 to hit (gunslinger) +2 to hit +4 damage (fighter)
So the gunslinger is adding:
+5 to hit +14 to damage
the fighter is adding:
+7 to hit +10 to damage
Giving us:
Gunslinger:
+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 twice
(weapon +23)
Fighter:
+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5 twice
(weapon +19)
The average touch AC is 9.86 with a median and mode of 8, total range goes from 2 to 26. There are a total of 22 monsters of which 10 monsters with 8, 3 having 14s, 3 having 10s, 3 have below 8 and two have above 14 as well as a single 9.
This has the largest impact on the ending attacks of course -- the fighter has a 10% miss rate, while the gunslinger has a 20% miss rate on his last shots.
Ending at 20 would given the gunslinger a total dex of +13 and a +5 weapon enhancement for +5 more damage.
The fighter will have weapon training to +7 (with gloves) and a +5 weapon enhancement for +6 more damage. The fighter would also have a x5 critical range with a possibility of x6 three times a day.
Any other further source of damage would apply to both evenly from what I currently know.
A different option might use the two weapon warrior archetype -- its damage will suffer (he's going to be 3 points down from weapon training being subbed out and 1 less on attack rolls) in comparison however the AC will be better and you would have the option of disarming or sundering his opponent if both his weapons hit the same opponent -- this option would be more limited since there aren't as many opponents that use weapons as use natural attacks when you are a PC. However his standard action attack is going to be better.
As for why I dislike it is pretty much the same reason all the other haters do. I don't like guns in my fantasy games. It throws off my suspension of disbelief as well as the inevitable power creep they represent.
Oh, I understand I guess. I'm very much the opposite, and enjoy quirky anachronisms in my game.
On the Topic at hand: I'm really confused, what's trying to be proven here? That Gunslingers and Fighters can both fight on a certain amount of par? That Gunslingers are better at fire-arms than fighters? That Fighters are better and fire-arms than gunslingers?
Like, what's going on?
As for why I dislike it is pretty much the same reason all the other haters do. I don't like guns in my fantasy games. It throws off my suspension of disbelief as well as the inevitable power creep they represent.Oh, I understand I guess. I'm very much the opposite, and enjoy quirky anachronisms in my game.
On the Topic at hand: I'm really confused, what's trying to be proven here? That Gunslingers and Fighters can both fight on a certain amount of par? That Gunslingers are better at fire-arms than fighters? That Fighters are better and fire-arms than gunslingers?
Like, what's going on?
In the beginning it was about guns being broken because there were no craft DCs to make them, but then that was settled and now people are arguing guns are broken due to their damage potential because of the touch attack and now people are arguing that the fighter should be as good as the gunslinger or better to prove guns are broken
So I guess someone has to build a fighter using guns that is on par with a gunslinger to prove that guns are broken.
The damage is high, but I don't think it is something that a GM can't get around. If guns are really powerful at a close range then it seems logical that the bad guys will stay away or charge the gunslinger and try to kill him quickly.
Hey guys, I got a Gunslinger ( Pistolero ) upcoming in my Carrion Crown campaign, who wants to use two guns. I am thinking about allowing him to craft two revolvers, as otherwise he will have reloading issues, due to lack of a free hand.
The other solutions would be two levels of alchemist, to get a vestigial arm ( which him and me are loathe to go for, for flavor reasons and that people with three arms are surely looked at askance in Ustalav... not that the character would not be, since his race is Undine ) or allowing something like "quickdraw holsters", which would allow him to put away his weapons as a free action, if he has the Quickdraw feat.
Would allowing him two revolvers be too much or do you guys think the character would still be balanced with a normal AP?
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Hey guys, I got a Gunslinger ( Pistolero ) upcoming in my Carrion Crown campaign, who wants to use two guns. I am thinking about allowing him to craft two revolvers, as otherwise he will have reloading issues, due to lack of a free hand.
The other solutions would be two levels of alchemist, to get a vestigial arm ( which him and me are loathe to go for, for flavor reasons and that people with three arms are surely looked at askance in Ustalav... not that the character would not be, since his race is Undine ) or allowing something like "quickdraw holsters", which would allow him to put away his weapons as a free action, if he has the Quickdraw feat.
Would allowing him two revolvers be too much or do you guys think the character would still be balanced with a normal AP?
Weapon cords.
1) Fire your main weapon.
2) Free action reload your main weapon (off-hand free with a pistol tied with a weapon cord).
3) Fire your main weapon.
4) Free action reload your main weapon.
(Rinse and repeat until no more primary attacks.)
5) Free action drop your main weapon, tied with a weapon cord.
6) Swift action draw your off-hand weapon thanks to the cord.
7) Fire your off-hand weapon.
8) Free action reload your off-hand weapon.
9) Fire your off-hand weapon.
(Repeat until no more attack. Use off-hand as your main weapon during next round, and use your swift action to get back to your real main weapon.)
Just change the fluff if you prefer the idea of shooting with two guns at once instead of one after the other. If the system allows you this by crunch, it shouldn't affect the fun you get by fluff.
Go for revolvers….. using a double barreled pistol is more likely to kill your campaign at higher levels……. (same trick as above, only with two shots per attack……)
Did you really not understand his intent are were you playing the semantics game?And besides I don't count on rolling 1s just like I don't count on rolling 20s. 9-11 is what your gonna roll most often (thats why its called average).Psst... that's not what "average" means. If you're rolling between 9 and 11 more often than any other numbers, your die is not balanced and should be thrown out.
I understood his point, but I think it's more than just semantics. Overdark seemed to think that the average roll of a d20 is 10, and gave himself a point to either side to cover himself and said that's what's going to come up on a die more often. Me saying that's wrong isn't semantics, it's math.
Hey guys, I got a Gunslinger ( Pistolero ) upcoming in my Carrion Crown campaign, who wants to use two guns. I am thinking about allowing him to craft two revolvers, as otherwise he will have reloading issues, due to lack of a free hand.
The other solutions would be two levels of alchemist, to get a vestigial arm ( which him and me are loathe to go for, for flavor reasons and that people with three arms are surely looked at askance in Ustalav... not that the character would not be, since his race is Undine ) or allowing something like "quickdraw holsters", which would allow him to put away his weapons as a free action, if he has the Quickdraw feat.
Would allowing him two revolvers be too much or do you guys think the character would still be balanced with a normal AP?
Weapon cords.
1) Fire your main weapon.
2) Free action reload your main weapon (off-hand free with a pistol tied with a weapon cord).
3) Fire your main weapon.
4) Free action reload your main weapon.(Rinse and repeat until no more primary attacks.)
5) Free action drop your main weapon, tied with a weapon cord.
6) Swift action draw your off-hand weapon thanks to the cord.
7) Fire your off-hand weapon.
8) Free action reload your off-hand weapon.
9) Fire your off-hand weapon.(Repeat until no more attack. Use off-hand as your main weapon during next round, and use your swift action to get back to your real main weapon.)
Just change the fluff if you prefer the idea of shooting with two guns at once instead of one after the other. If the system allows you this by crunch, it shouldn't affect the fun you get by fluff.
Hm, that sounds quite complicated ( although solutions like Quickdraw Holsters are not very different... ^^ ). Is letting the player use a Revolver, when he can afford two, not the better solution? Or are they somehow overpowered compared to normal pistols, outside of having capacity for six shots?
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Hm, that sounds quite complicated ( although solutions like Quickdraw Holsters are not very different... ^^ ). Is letting the player use a Revolver, when he can afford two, not the better solution? Or are they somehow overpowered compared to normal pistols, outside of having capacity for six shots?
It's only fluff. You could say there are no weapon cords but holsters from which you quick draw/quick sheathe your guns and reload between each shot. I think a gunslinger needs to be played with several pistols though, and that you simply can't play effectively without multiclassing for one more arm or using weapons cords. Dropping guns, drawing another and shooting would mean you should have at least two double-barelled pistols for nova effect, your level 1 pistol, a dragon pistol for some eventual control, and a peppergun for when you need lots of bullets without reloading.
I don't think revolvers are overpowered, but they still suffer less drawbacks than a normal pistol and thus they should rank in the Medium to Major wondrous item category of rarity in any campaign where even basic gun's aren't available to anyone - not talking about their flavor which would seem off in a lot of campaigns, even steampunk ones.
I don't think revolvers are overpowered, but they still suffer less drawbacks than a normal pistol and thus they should rank in the Medium to Major wondrous item category of rarity in any campaign where even basic gun's aren't available to anyone - not talking about their flavor which would seem off in a lot of campaigns, even steampunk ones.
Eh, I don't know. Sure, they are anachronistic, but I think in a world like Golarion, where we got giant metal scorpions from space shooting lasers, they are not that out of place. YMMV, of course.
I think I'll let the player build revolvers and that's the solution. Even with a capacity of six shots, he will have to reload in some situations.
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Eh, I don't know. Sure, they are anachronistic, but I think in a world like Golarion, where we got giant metal scorpions from space shooting lasers, they are not that out of place. YMMV, of course.I think I'll let the player build revolvers and that's the solution. Even with a capacity of six shots, he will have to reload in some situations.
In Golarion, sure. For any other campaign a bit less opened, I would still make this a quest treasure.
Maybe something like bits of a new weapon, the inventor of which was found dead and his plans vanished. Through the adventure (at least 5 levels), the player would find blueprints fragments, and odd metal bits he could recognize as fundamental gears by associating the blueprints and the metal bits. This would make for a true, sentimentally valuable treasure, and give the player a weapon allowed by it's Wealth by level.
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I was going to go with some hypothetical encounter numbers but instead i went with an actual encounter from one of their products so - spoiler alert!!
Chamber is a perfect circle 60 feet across, so the maximum range for the entire encounter is 60 feet. Well within the first range increment of a bow and very easy to make sure that all shots from firearms will target touch AC. Also to avoid some issues that I know some of you will bring up, since this encounter is from a Kingmaker issue, the Archer and Gunlingers will be replacing Harsk in the party. So they have Amiri, Sajan, and Lini to back them up in this encounter, meaning (among other things) they both get to hide behind their barbarian friend and won't have to worry too much about the monster coming after them. Just like the archer that was in our party when we fought this encounter.
So the monster for this encounter is an Iron Golem (CR 13)
AC 28 (touch 8, flat-footed 28)
DR 15/adamantine
Speed 20 ft (4 squares)
Heroic NPC stats for both characters (to keep them in line with the other characters in the book).
Archery Fighter
[Str 16, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8; Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim (-3/+6), Dodge, Far Shot, Imp. Critical (Longbow), Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow); Weapon +2 Composite Longbow (Str +3) 1d8+9; Weapon Training: Bows (+2)]
Regular - 20/15 (needs 8/13 to hit) 14 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 1 attack hits (total damage 14)
Rolls 15s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 28)
Deadly Aim - 17/14 (needs 11/16 to hit) 20 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: No attack hits (total damage 0)
Rolls 15s: 1 attack hits (total damage 20)
Rapid Shot Regular - 18/18/13 (needs 10/10/15 to hit) 14 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 28)
Rolls 15s: 3 attacks hit (total damage 42)
Rapid Shot Deadly Aim - 15/15/12 (needs 13/13/16 to hit) 20 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: No attacks hit (total damage 0)
Rolls 10s: No attack hits (total damage 0)
Rolls 15s: 2 attacks hit (total damage 40)
Gunslinger
[Str 15, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8; Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim (-3/+6), Extra Grit, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Pepperbox), Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Pepperbox)); Weapon +1 Pepperbox 1d8+6]
Pepperbox - 17/12 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 11 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 22)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 22)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 22)
Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 14/9 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 18 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 36)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 36)
Rapid Shot Pepperbox - 15/15/10 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 11 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 33)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 33)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 33)
Rapid Shot Deadly Aim Pepperbox - 12/12/7 (needs to not roll 1s to hit) 18 damage per hit
Rolls 5s: All attacks hit (total damage 54)
Rolls 10s: All attacks hits (total damage 54)
Rolls 15s: All attacks hit (total damage 54)
Sure looks like the Gunslinger has a lot more bolded entries to me. I didn't even add in his bonuses for being within 30 feet (+1 Atk and Dmg). So in two instances (both requiring good rolls) the bow user wins the round. But under average circumstances the gunslinger wins every time. With poor rolls the gunslinger really shines since none of the archers attacks hit. Oh and the archers weapon costs 9,000 gold and the gunslingers costs 5,300 gold, so how is the price of guns affecting these characters? Seems to me the gunslinger has a 'spare' 3,700 gold to spend on ammo, sound like more than enough to me.
The touch attack mechanic of the guns is a flawed system, it should be a Gunslinger Deed powered by Grit.
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing her firearm. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point to have all attacks until the end of the gunslingers turn target touch AC. Attacks made past the first range increment cost 1 extra grit point per range increment beyond the first for each attack. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
Or
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, as long as the gunslinger has 1 grit point she can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing her firearm within the first range increment. Attacks made past the first range increment cost 1 extra grit point per range increment beyond the first for each attack. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
These are both more in line with similar abilities like Accurate Strike for the Magus and the second one still maintains the mechanic as it exists but makes it an exclusive ability of the Gunslinger.
But I forgot I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, just more 'theorycraft' right?
And in case you think I picked a high CR monster encounter with a low touch AC to skew the results in favor of the gunslinger...
CR 12 Bestiary Monsters
Adult Copper Dragon (AC 29, touch 10) [difference 19]
Adult Green Dragon (AC 27, touch 8) [difference 19]
Lich (AC 23, touch 14) [difference 9]
Purple Worm (AC 26, touch 4) [difference 22]
Roper (AC 27, touch 10) [difference 17]
Sea Serpent (AC 25, touch 8) [difference 17]
Average AC 26, touch AC 8 [difference 18]
CR 13 Bestiary Monsters
Adult Blue Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Adult Bronze Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Froghemoth (AC 28, touch 9) [difference 19]
Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15) [difference 12]
Glabrezu (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Ice Devil (AC 32, touch 14) [difference 18]
Iron Golem (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Storm Giant (AC 28, touch 10) [difference 18]
Average AC 28, touch AC 10 [difference 18]
Hell lets go on up to CR 20
Balor (AC 36, touch 20) [difference 16]
Ancient Gold Dragon (AC 39, touch 5) [difference 34]
Pit Fiend (AC 38, touch 18) [difference 20]
Tarn Linnorm (AC 36, touch 10) [difference 26]
Average AC 37, touch AC 13 [difference 24]
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Gunslingers should fit in with other characters of their type like rogues and magi
3/4 Base Attack Bonus, one or two good saves, d8 HD, no heavy armor. That sounds more like where the gunslinger should be.
Alchemist [3/4 BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, d8 HD, 4 skill ranks/level, light armor, touch AC bombs (only one per round)]
Inquisitor [3/4 BAB, good Fort and Will saves, d8 HD, 6 skill ranks/level, light and medium armor, spells and judgement]
Magus [3/4 BAB, good Fort and Will saves, d8 HD, 2 skill ranks/level, light armor (medium and heavy at higher levels), spells and arcane pool]
Rogue [3/4 BAB, good Ref saves, d8 HD, 8 skill ranks/level, light armor, sneak attack and rogue talents]
Gunslinger 2.0 [3/4 BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, d8 HD, 4 skill ranks/level, light armor, firearms and grit]
Seems like they fit more in that group to me.
Hell they can almost get away with 1/2 BAB since that is what Touch AC was introduced for in the first place, so sorcerers and wizards would have a target number they could hit with their ray spells.
And by the way, Nimble is a million times better than Bravery. +1 dodge bonus to AC and +1 for every four levels. Way better than +1 on Will saves versus fear, +1 for every four levels. That just means the fighter only fails by a little bit instead of a lot, he still fails. No good Will save and (most likely) no Wisdom. Bravery doesn't help much it just looks good on paper.
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In the beginning it was about guns being broken because there were no craft DCs to make them, but then that was settled and now people are arguing guns are broken due to their damage potential because of the touch attack and now people are arguing that the fighter should be as good as the gunslinger or better to prove guns are broken
Except Gunsmithing removes all the checks for crafting firearms and ammo.
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Hm, that sounds quite complicated ( although solutions like Quickdraw Holsters are not very different... ^^ ). Is letting the player use a Revolver, when he can afford two, not the better solution? Or are they somehow overpowered compared to normal pistols, outside of having capacity for six shots?
Advanced firearms are waaaaay better than early firearms, you can make touch attacks within the first five range increments. So revolvers make touch attacks out to 100 feet, which for 99% of all encounters is the entire map.
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I understood his point, but I think it's more than just semantics. Overdark seemed to think that the average roll of a d20 is 10, and gave himself a point to either side to cover himself and said that's what's going to come up on a die more often. Me saying that's wrong isn't semantics, it's math.
Part of my point was that any character that rolls 5s all night long for whatever is gonna suck and fail alot. Except the gunslinger who still hits most of their targets with crap rolls like that, and is that fair?
I know that when you roll a d20 you have an equal chance of rolling any given number, but when I'm crafting my character and trying to judge his effecttivness I go with 10, if I can succeed on whatevr the check is with a 10 then I feel reletivly comfortable with my chance of success, if I need 15s then I'm less sure of success. When I only need to roll 5s I'm very confident with my chances for success. This type of 'math' only works outside of actual gaming because, Yes when I sit down at the table and rolll my die I could roll a bunch of crap and fail all those checks I thought I was going to make. But thats not what I plan on, I plan on average (some crap rolls aome good rolls), in then end it all averages out.
I understood his point, but I think it's more than just semantics. Overdark seemed to think that the average roll of a d20 is 10, and gave himself a point to either side to cover himself and said that's what's going to come up on a die more often. Me saying that's wrong isn't semantics, it's math.Did you really not understand his intent are were you playing the semantics game?And besides I don't count on rolling 1s just like I don't count on rolling 20s. 9-11 is what your gonna roll most often (thats why its called average).Psst... that's not what "average" means. If you're rolling between 9 and 11 more often than any other numbers, your die is not balanced and should be thrown out.
Well we can't use 10.5 unless you alternate 10's and 11's. Assuming perfectly balanced dice that is what the average result would be. Now as for the not ever rolling 1's and 20's I disagree with that since they are autohits and fails, and have to be accounted for.
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Overdark, you already tried to make your point during the gunslinger playtest, and the whole "gunslinger is overpowered" was proven wrong by a lot of people way more clever and with more time to spend than myself in long threads with a lot of mathematics and DPR tables.
Writing several posts one after another don't make your point more right, even now that the final gunslinger is out and fine with some exceptions.
Also, the peppergun user doesn't fail only on a 1 but on a 2 too, or even 3 if he used a paper cartridge beforehand.
A fumble means you go from 10% auto-fail with minimum 1-2 misfire, to 20% with -2 to attack and damage and a x2 critical considering Gun Training, with a minimum 1-4 misfire range. Add in a weapon explosion if you fail again.
Oh, and Clustered Shots don't make you totally ignore DR, so the Gunslinger would inflict 54-15 = 39 damage if considering normal bullets and no adamantium ones. Also, if I didn't miss anything, it's 17,5 average damage per shot from all bonuses, including Point Blank, not 18, so you can lower a bit the previous number.
Weapon cords.1) Fire your main weapon.
2) Free action reload your main weapon (off-hand free with a pistol tied with a weapon cord).
3) Fire your main weapon.
4) Free action reload your main weapon.(Rinse and repeat until no more primary attacks.)
5) Free action drop your main weapon, tied with a weapon cord.
6) Swift action draw your off-hand weapon thanks to the cord.
7) Fire your off-hand weapon.
8) Free action reload your off-hand weapon.
9) Fire your off-hand weapon.(Repeat until no more attack. Use off-hand as your main weapon during next round, and use your swift action to get back to your real main weapon.)
Just change the fluff if you prefer the idea of shooting with two guns at once instead of one after the other. If the system allows you this by crunch, it shouldn't affect the fun you get by fluff.
Thanks for typing that out. I am wondering if this works. It doesn't seem to make logical sense, but this is D&D. For TWF arn't the attacks at the same time? It just seems odd to make X attacks with one weapon and the X attacks with the other. Anyway, I probably should not apply logic to a world of magic!
And some DM's may use this little clause in the weapon cord description:
Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord,
though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
I could see the argument that loading a black powder pistol is a finer action!
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Overdark, you already tried to make your point during the gunslinger playtest, and the whole "gunslinger is overpowered" was proven wrong by a lot of people way more clever and with more time to spend than myself in long threads with a lot of mathematics and DPR tables.
Writing several posts one after another don't make your point more right, even now that the final gunslinger is out and fine with some exceptions.Also, the peppergun user doesn't fail only on a 1 but on a 2 too, or even 3 if he used a paper cartridge beforehand.
A fumble means you go from 10% auto-fail with minimum 1-2 misfire, to 20% with -2 to attack and damage and a x2 critical considering Gun Training, with a minimum 1-4 misfire range. Add in a weapon explosion if you fail again.Oh, and Clustered Shots don't make you totally ignore DR, so the Gunslinger would inflict 54-15 = 39 damage if considering normal bullets and no adamantium ones. Also, if I didn't miss anything, it's 17,5 average damage per shot from all bonuses, including Point Blank, not 18, so you can lower a bit the previous number.
Right but the archer doesn't ignore the DR either and so the gunslinger still does more damage than the archer so what was your point exactly? Other than to not admit that I'm right?
You can take out the Belt of Physical Perfection +2 for the gunslinger and just add in a Dex Belt instead since he doesn't need Str or Con as much, and then he does even more damage. They both have the BoPP +2 since I decided to keep the majority of their equipment the same for fairness. Add Reliable to the Gunslingers weapon then it costs the same as the archers, and the gunslinger still does more damage and hits 95% of the time.
If you want to belive I'm wrong then no ammount of arguing is going to sway you, if you want to believe someone elses posts over mine then you go right ahead, thats your right.
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Right but the archer doesn't ignore the DR either and so the gunslinger still does more damage than the archer so what was your point exactly? Other than to not admit that I'm right?
Other than the fact you've got an archer with 19-20 x3 critical, against a gunslinger with 20 x4 and a weapon breaking on a minimum natural 1-2, then 1-4 with lots of penalties, and that you seem to be trying to enter into another discussion about game mechanics when I just showed you don't even grasp half of what you are talking about ?
You know what, I'll just sigh in despair and prevently keep my sanity by not rewriting exactly what was said and you choose to ignore some months ago.
If any player, or anxious DM falls here by searching if guns are OMGBROKEN, I can safely assure them that they are not, and represent a different kind of gameplay with it's own drawbacks. Other topics than this one will give any proof you need for this assumption. Damage Per Round champions were the archers, and they still hold the gold medal.
Feel free to allow your players to use guns if your campaign world could include them and if it could provide fun for everyone at your table.
Being able to Hit on a 5 in combat is actually what's supposed to happen at latter levels for most Full BAB classes. Especially if they choose to forgoe Damage Bonus Attacks like deadly aim.
/shrug.
We then haveThe fighter doing less damage than the pistolero, who still isn't outperforming an archer.
Good to know.
With the miss percentages the fighter is much closer than you are suggesting at 13th level and by 20th level the critical hit multiplier increases end up putting him ahead in DPR... not to mention his still superior to hit numbers.
Unless you have another damage raising trick for the gunslinger that I'm missing (quite possible I'm running most of the UC stuff from out of my head currently) they end up in a dead heat for even.
Hell lets go on up to CR 20
Balor (AC 36, touch 20) [difference 16]
Ancient Gold Dragon (AC 39, touch 5) [difference 34]
Pit Fiend (AC 38, touch 18) [difference 20]
Tarn Linnorm (AC 36, touch 10) [difference 26]
Average AC 37, touch AC 13 [difference 24]
Some quick notes:
The Pit fiend's AC is in error -- his real AC is 42 and his touch is 22 -- still a difference of twenty (they failed to take unholy aura into account which he has as an unlimited at will ability).
Taking this into account we our average touch AC increases by 1 across the four monsters you present.
I would suggest running the full progression for CR 20 monsters though including the new ones from the bestiary 2 -- all told I think that would raise the touch AC to about 16 -- as would taking into account the dragon's spells (of which he can easily have holy aura and cloak of winds for example which basically nulls out the gunslinger all together).
Right but the archer doesn't ignore the DR either and so the gunslinger still does more damage than the archer so what was your point exactly? Other than to not admit that I'm right?
Archer has cluster shot -- and is likely to (if a fighter) have improved penetrating strike -- in which case he can ignore DR (to some extent -- 10 points of any type and 5 of non-typed) and combine all his shots to only count DR once... and the gunslinger won't out damage a fighter archer, unless he goes specifically for the double barrel pistol trick we were discussing up thread and possibly (possibly) not even then.
But heck if you want to provide your own numbers to back up your assertions feel free.
Hm, that sounds quite complicated ( although solutions like Quickdraw Holsters are not very different... ^^ ). Is letting the player use a Revolver, when he can afford two, not the better solution? Or are they somehow overpowered compared to normal pistols, outside of having capacity for six shots?Advanced firearms are waaaaay better than early firearms, you can make touch attacks within the first five range increments. So revolvers make touch attacks out to 100 feet, which for 99% of all encounters is the entire map.
Oh, right. Well, I'll talk to the player about this, then. That is really too good, because it takes tactical movement away as a strategic resource to balance the class.
Stop trolling this is such an insignificant part of the game it doesn't even affect the overall game in any shape or form.In your opinion.
My opinion is that because Paizo made their crappy touch AC mechanic now their guns are unbalanced in THE GAME. If you can't understand that then fine. Its a game, every option within that game should be fairly balanced against every other option. Firearms and Gunslingers aren't. End of story.
To acheive a similar effect with bows its 1,006 gp per shot (Brilliant Energy arrows), and those just don't work on constructs and undead.
Every other item in the game needs checks to craft, not guns (with Gunsmithing).
The gunslinger should have 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, like the Inquisitor. Not full BAB and d10 (and two good saves). He's a ranged combatant he doesn't have heavy armor proficiency and shouldn't be taking attacks frequently anyway. The magus has 3/4 BAB and d8 HD and he's expected to be in melee.
Poor design, and this is what I pay for?
I want to be able to use the material in the books I buy. I don't want to hand my players a book and say "yeah use this stuff, except anything to do with that one entire class and everything associated with their tools". Thats lame.
I didn't have to do it with Ultimate Magic, APG or ANY OTHER BOOK Paizo has published.
Costs and misfires are poor balances for firearms. The cost doesnt mean anything to any character over 4th or 5th level, and the misfire chances are crap, it just jams on the first misfire and if your dumb enough to keep firing that weapon then you deserve to have it blow up in your face. And besides I don't count on rolling 1s just like I don't count on rolling 20s. 9-11 is what your gonna roll most often (thats why its called average). So yeah when all you can do is roll 1s and 2s all night long guns suck, but guess what evrything sucks when you roll nnothing but crap. Its not a balance.
Nobody complained about guns until they instituted their new gun rules...
If that is the case why does my Gunslinger fall behind the fighter in damage delt. If guns are so broken then I should be doing more damage than anyone else and not doing about as much as the party's monk.
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I read "9-11 is what you're going to roll most often" and stopped reading.
And this is why I decided to stop arguing.
Some months ago, there was a lot of discussion about the gunslinger during it's playtest, where Overdark illustrated his point of view with this kind of argument. All the time. With strange examples, calcul mistakes, constant misinterpretation of the rules, non-mathematical assumptions ("10 is the average so I use 10 to see if it's average", no matter the DPR stats, critical hits and large fumbles misfire zones which ruin the true average damage of a gunslinger)...Any other topic will serve as a proof that guns aren't overpowered at all.
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And this is why I decided to stop arguing.
Some months ago, there was a lot of discussion about the gunslinger during it's playtest, where Overdark illustrated his point of view with this kind of argument. All the time. With strange examples, calcul mistakes, constant misinterpretation of the rules, non-mathematical assumptions ("10 is the average so I use 10 to see if it's average", no matter the DPR stats, critical hits and large fumbles misfire zones which ruin the true average damage of a gunslinger)...
Any other topic will serve as a proof that guns aren't overpowered at all.
I wasn't the one who started the whole gunslinger argument again, my initial point was the fact that crafting guns requires no check for taking a feat.
Fighters can make their own magic items in Pathfinder now. Awesome. Still gotta have high Craft ranks and make checks.
Wizards can make stuff too but again they gotta make those pseky checks.
Experts and commoners make stuff, all kinds of stuff, but they gotta make checks.
Except when they take 1 feat, and they make guns.
What the hell is that?
The rest of this was just me being willing to argue with you people about the flawed mechanics that firarms work under, and the resulting world changes that Paizo has had to introduce to keep their world balanced because of them.
And guns arent rare in a world where 1st level commoners can take a feat and craft masterwork advanced firearms all day long with absolutely no chance for failure.
And heres some math for ya 80% of the time you roll something on yer d20 besides a 1-2 or 19-20 so thats why I tend to discount those numbers when trying to decide if something works or doesn't. Yes you do roll those numbers just not that often.
Anyway, I'm glad your all so much smarter and better than me at crucnhing numbers and s*$* so I'm going to just go back to my game now where I have no idea what the hell I'm doing and misinterpret some more rules.
[EDIT] Oh yeah I forgot about the swear filter, ha. Gotta love that.
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Thinking like that is terribly misleading. That number doesn't represent actual play. That's misrepresenting statistics to meet your needs. You're not going to 'most often' roll 9-11 at all. Those individual numbers are not any more likely than the others.
I just want to state, for the record, to any confused players out there that this is true. There are two kinds of dice rolls in Pathfinder and other games based on the oldest roleplaying game in the world.
A) Rolls with an even chance for each result - d20, d100
B) Rolls which 'weight' towards the middle - 3d6, 2d8, etc.
While you can reliably count on 'B' to avoid the extremes, you absolutely CANNOT count on 'A' to do likewise. For every '10' you roll on a d20, someone else rolls a '1'.
But the archer doesn't hit on 5s, did you just not read that? With or without Deadly Aim.
Right, which is a problem with the Archer's Build. Again, Full BAB classes should be able to reliably hit, or over-hit their target in their first iterative attack, and then hit their their Second one with high probability as well (At the very least 80%). The Third and Fourth attacks should be less reliable.
Right, which is a problem with the Archer's Build. Again, Full BAB classes should be able to reliably hit, or over-hit their target in their first iterative attack, and then hit their their Second one with high probability as well (At the very least 80%). The Third and Fourth attacks should be less reliable.But the archer doesn't hit on 5s, did you just not read that? With or without Deadly Aim.
Heck there's plenty of builds that are archers that should hit with every attack, only getting down to 90% on the last attack even while using deadly aim and rapid shot -- Overdark just can't build archers.
I expect my monk to have a +25 to hit with primary attacks @ about the time I would face CR 18s, and my fighter friend has a much-higher-than-25 bonus to his primary attacks @ level 13, so that archer does suck, I'm sorry, Overdark. Our house rules didn't up the stats that high to make that difference.
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perimeter/parameter
Fighters can make their own magic items in Pathfinder now. Awesome. Still gotta have high Craft ranks and make checks.
Wizards can make stuff too but again they gotta make those pseky checks.
Experts and commoners make stuff, all kinds of stuff, but they gotta make checks.
Except when they take 1 feat, and they make guns.
OK, add checks, swap the feat for Skill Focus, and you're in the exact same situation -- "having" to make "pesky" checks that are nearly impossible to fail.
Skill checks don't create balance. If you think touch attacks vs. AC is OP, fine -- argue that point, stick to it, and provide real numbers to back it up. But, seriously, adding a skill check is NOT going to fix it. It's not even a start towards fixing it. All it does is add another die roll for the sake of form -- which need hardly ever be made, because most of the time you can just take 10 and auto-succeed anyway.
I understood his point, but I think it's more than just semantics. Overdark seemed to think that the average roll of a d20 is 10, and gave himself a point to either side to cover himself and said that's what's going to come up on a die more often. Me saying that's wrong isn't semantics, it's math.Well we can't use 10.5 unless you alternate 10's and 11's. Assuming perfectly balanced dice that is what the average result would be. Now as for the not ever rolling 1's and 20's I disagree with that since they are autohits and fails, and have to be accounted for.
Actually, we can (and should) use 10.5 if we're taking a serious look at chance-to-hit or DPR, or whatever. And then also take into account the auto-hit, auto-miss and crit ranges. Saying that you've got a 55.993% chance at hitting, or that you deal 35.73 DPR is perfectly acceptable for analysis' sake (numbers are random examples).
It's a little gratifing to see that I'm not the only one who noticed this and thought it was an issue.
Hey i don't like guns (and ninja for that matter) to be alongside with wizards, knights and dragons but you don't see me fighting against them and going in the rant that overdark seems to be going, also from what i have seen and thought, i don't see anything game-braking with early firearms (apart from waiting for a clarification on double barrel pistols), for advanced firearms i am not so sure since i haven't got the chance to test them yet.